Getting Your Business Over the Line - Interview with Bryan Habana, Deon Nobrega and Tamir Sacks

Greg Stewart: Welcome to No Free Lunch, Africa's freshest business and tech podcast with me, host, Greg Stewart. Our discussion today is about getting business over the line the emerging business, ⁓ fintech platforms that are increasingly playing a big role, not only in managing human resources, but bringing back the human touch to human resource structures. And I'm happy to have as my guest today, three South African entrepreneurs who have built successful companies around this philosophy.

And so a warm welcome to South African rugby legend Brian Obana, fintech entrepreneur. Dionne Nobriga and business innovator, Tamir Saks. Welcome to No Free Lunch, gentlemen. Bryan Habana: Thanks for having us, Greg.

Tamir Sacks: Thank Greg Stewart: ⁓ if I could start with you, not just because you're the most famous personality in our studio today, but because I'm really curious as to how you transitioned from a hugely successful career into a business entrepreneur. Tell us a bit about that journey and what inspired the move. Bryan Habana: not friendly. Greg, think firstly, great to be on the podcast.

don't joke when I say I'm not the famous, the famous. Tamir has actually got his provincial colors in fishing, which I horrible at. So if you were to put the two of us together, he's not just a serial entrepreneur and know, South African ⁓ businessman. He's pretty good.

Dion and myself the ball around golf course a little bit. So I'm not quite sure whether I'm his caddie or he is mine. But yeah, I'm privileged and fortunate that I know for many former athletes that transition period is the scariest door to open because when you have to step out of what you've known for the better part of 10 and 15, 20 years into the unknown, into the daunting, into the scary, know, in boardrooms, having to look at budgets, having to try, know, table on the Excel spreadsheet, having to try to create PowerPoint presentations based of knowledge that you don't have.

You know, it's a really environment and it's extremely difficult to navigate. And I tell people, I hate the term balance because as a professional athlete, the last thing that you have is balance. And what I have also learned in that entrepreneurial space, balance is also the last thing that you have because if you have three silos in your life and you're being balanced, you are not giving a silo 66.666 % reoccurring ⁓ gravitating towards a sense of Harmony, think is definitely something more adequate, but being a relentless professional athlete, and both to me and Dion will understand this, you are just so driven give everything that you have to be able to achieve success.

And every waking second of the day, you're focused on what you're doing to be able to achieve that. And even if you play golf on a Thursday and your off day, that still adds a level of bringing in an holistic approach to getting your body in a position to be prepared for battle on a Saturday. The transition period has been great because as much as you build a brand, person becomes successful on their own. And myself and Dion's story goes back 26 years.

were university roommates at what now is the University of Johannesburg, then the Randolph-Rickans University. And had been in the financial services and financial service space for the better part of 15, 20 years. He'd been at a fintech and he'd come across a concept very much like what Tamir had done. Greg Stewart: Mm.

Bryan Habana: called EWA. He was in a position where his back was potentially against the wall, needed to spread his wings in a very different way and looked at forming an environment with best in practice specialists create the possibility of starting a company that could make a tangible impact in South Africa. So specialists in certain elements and Dion having ⁓ trusted friendship and relationship with me for the better part of 20 years said, listen, He's got this concept, he knows how to execute on it.

You've got people that can create the tech value. My element can add value to the brand in terms of what we're trying to do from a purpose perspective. And I'll be able to manage it through certain contacts and network opportunities that I have. And came together the four of us, I had to learn that MVP in the real world doesn't mean most valuable player.

means something very different in the tech space. Dion, Khari, Podkhiter and Willem van Zyl were instrumental. allowing me to upskill myself. So a long-winded answer saying I'm here not because of my own skill, I'm here because of a phenomenal team that I've been able to, through trust and friendship, build a incredible business with.

And the merge with the Baker team under Tamir Saks guidance has been one that has seen us put an element of one plus one equaling three, best of both worlds coming together. And I am very privileged to be sitting in a position where the purpose of what we're doing now as a cohesive unit Greg Stewart: Yeah. Right. Bryan Habana: is on a daily basis making a tangible impact in just under 800,000 people's lives.

Greg Stewart: Yeah, a great story of teamwork and something you're obviously familiar with, but it's a different kind of teamwork. So I've just got one other question for you is that what's scarier, sitting in a ⁓ trying to that pitch or running onto the field with all blacks? Bryan Habana: Mm. depending I'm going to the boardroom with.

If it's the sales deck, I'd much rather be doing the sales deck. If it's with our management accounts, I much rather play against the All Blacks in Christchurch. Greg Stewart: in Christchurch. Good answer.

Dion, let's just shift to you quickly. You're certainly a classic entrepreneur and you've steered Pay Me Now from a small startup to South Africa's largest wage success or access story. Our platform is one focuses on entrepreneurs and business founders and the business founder landscape in Africa. you share some of the best lessons you've learned on this journey that perhaps some other intrapreneurs can take a lesson from?

Deon Nobrega: Yeah, thanks Greg. And again, lovely to be on your show. I think just to maybe echo some of the words that Brian said, and there's that old, and I know you're speaking about the African landscape, there is actually that old African saying of, if you want to go fast, go alone, but if you want to go far, go together. And it's just such an incredible story about, you know, being able to build a company with an incredibly strong co-founding team.

So, I mean, I did come up with a concept, but I knew that... Greg Stewart: Yes. Deon Nobrega: An idea is like, you know, so many other things, everybody has one. And it's all around execution and really being able to surround yourself with a competent team that you can trust, that you know that when the chips are down and you need to deliver, you've got each other's backs.

So such between the startup world and professional sports. And having Brian and our team, Brian mentioned our two other co-founders from the... Greg Stewart: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah. Deon Nobrega: pay me now side and I'm pretty sure to me has got a very similar story and I'm sure you'd also like to share on that. But it's just having that support with you that you know that is a whole team behind you that's got your back. We started very small.

think us just being and following a methodology of being frugal and bootstrapping and trying to a business actually get to profitability. think the last couple of years, there's also been a bit of hype around inflated valuations and going down the VC route and just trying to raise funds for whatever reason. It's almost like it's seen that's the only way to start a business is to go and raise cash at crazy valuations and then somehow try and deploy it and hope to make the business work.

I think when we started Pay Me Now for us, it was quite important that we build an incredible product from day one. It must be a market fit. We need to solve a problem or disrupt an industry. So I think we were able to check those boxes.

Another incredible success factor for us as a business was very early on identifying a strategic investor. So myself, Brian, Harry Willem, we had the expertise. We didn't necessarily have the capital and we didn't have the ⁓ distribution channel. finding a very strategic investor that can bring those elements, not just capital to the table, is what really helped accelerate us very early on.

Greg Stewart: Yeah. Yes. Deon Nobrega: I would like to say that those are probably some of those, the secret sauce behind Pay Me Now. And then goes without saying, Brian spoke about it.

There's no such thing as balance. Definitely my looked lot better six, seven years ago when I started Pay Me Now. So when you do put in that, you have to put in the hard yards. You have to grind.

know, ⁓ so it just really comes to those factors for me. Greg Stewart: you Yeah. Yeah, interesting enough, this last week there was sadly a story about one of the Nigerian fintechs that shut doors. they a pretty good product in terms of payment remittances and so on.

But the spent so much time trying to perfect the product and didn't focus distribution, didn't focus on getting access to the markets. And what you mentioned, I think, is such a key thing for startups. Without that, you could have the best product in the world. if you don't have that distribution, if you don't have access to markets, you're actually never going to get out the starting blocks.

And bringing someone on board who can open that door for you and bring in some capital is a double win. So it's a great, great lesson. Tamir, can turn to you right now and let's talk a bit about your whole journey PayCurve and you founded and built it up. Deon Nobrega: Direct.

Greg Stewart: talk to us a bit about your journey and how you the currently and what led to the idea of the merger what do you think that's bringing? So the sum of the as Brian said earlier, is greater than the individual parts. Tamir Sacks: Thanks. Sure, thanks Greg.

our journey started beginning 2020. Historically, myself and one of my co-founders, Steven Williamson, we came of financial services within South Africa, specifically the credit space. And if we at we've got with Payco PayMeNow on the earned wage access side, it's there specifically to allow employees to navigate pay cycles more effectively and also to combat credit reliance. ⁓ So coming out of the credit space, we really did have a really good understanding of the the bad, the ugly when it comes to credit and credit reliance.

And therefore, we came across the concept of EWA, earned wage access, which Dion mentioned was already established within American markets and starting to make its way across the various geographies, knew for South Africa, this was going to be an absolute game changer. So we started beginning 2020. think we got our first client at the end of 2020, learned some good lessons along the way there. example, we had a loan and we developed our product ⁓ or platform a specific language and later realized that the language was not the right language, but because we came out of financial services, unlike Dion and the team, ⁓ are unbelievable technologists, relied on ⁓ techie to guard us and we necessarily poke holes in the direction that we were moving.

So we learned some early lessons. Nonetheless, ⁓ it was a hard start. We didn't get off to a flying start it came to market adoption and sales. Picked up a couple of clients here and there.

But I think what was pivotal for us specifically And this talks to your previous question around the journey is the fact that we pivoted much in to ourselves narrative. So ⁓ after single meeting that we had, we would debrief as a team and we'd say, we got that question. Why did we get that question? What did we say in our presentation?

What words were delivered that gave that reaction? And we debrief and we would adjust. Greg Stewart: Mm. Right.

Tamir Sacks: and we would go into the next presentation and the next and the next, I think we must have worked through our presentation probably three, four, 500 times of minor little tweaks before we actually got to a point where it was flowing. The questions we were asked were exactly what we wanted to be asked. Cause you want your... Greg Stewart: Wow.

Tamir Sacks: your audience to ask questions and it gives you a really good understanding into are they following the narrative? Are they following what you're selling or not? We got to a point around end of 2023 where we felt that we had our presentation pretty waxed, our tech was good and that's really where we actually started rocking and rolling. We started picking up some good clients.

I think what was also key for me during the course of the Greg Stewart: sure. Tamir Sacks: five, six years was initially, we were competing against Pay Me Now and Pay Me Now was the Northern Star. ⁓ we decided at a point to actually what makes us unique because were following a lot of what Dion and the team were doing. They were leading a lot of the decision making.

Greg Stewart: Yes. Mm. Tamir Sacks: We then decided around 2023, actually, let's move off in our own direction. Let's see, we've got a lot to offer the market.

We come out of a different space, we think differently, and we started bringing our uniqueness into the product set. ⁓ And once we started doing that, and once we had our sales presentation waxed, that's when we started picking up a lot of bigger corporates, some of the name brands in SA. Greg Stewart: Yeah. Tamir Sacks: And we had a great 2024, great 2025.

We in the market looking do ⁓ a equity raise to put some cash into the business. We've got big ambitions around products and so on. We wanted to chase down that dream. And that's we started talking about the merge.

Initially, was a... We couldn't see how it could possibly come together. But as we worked through it and as we met the team and as we could see alignment in relation to vision, skills, I think what was so incredible for me personally was that Dion the team and Brian think differently to the pay curve team. And as a collective, it is an ⁓ unbelievable mix talent, skills, resources that are coming together.

Greg Stewart: Yep. Yeah. Tamir Sacks: And that year, we eventually merged end of 2025 and find ourselves here today. Very exciting.

Greg Stewart: Yeah. And is because you don't just want the same voices in the room. I mean, that's certainly something that I've learned in business. You have the same voices in the room.

You have the same narrative, the same story. There's nobody where you're going to go. ⁓ it's correct. you're never going to learn.

You're never going to get better. Deon Nobrega: You just have a bunch of Yaw Brews, right? And that's not what you want. Greg Stewart: know, Brian, you probably experienced that on the rugby field.

You know, how do we tackle this team? how do we ⁓ take out their their advantages build up our own? It's very similar in business. And ⁓ if you've got the same as chances are, you're never, never going to come up with a great solution.

But talking. Yeah, Brian, you've got something to say. Bryan Habana: Yeah. No.

On that, I think it's actually brilliant points that Tamir raised, and as you talk about the correlation to sport and life. When I made the move to play in Toulon in 2013, coming onto Cape Town, I really just loved Cape Town. I was at a point in my career where I needed to be pushed further, and I got into a bit of a lull, a of a rut. I had eight great years of super rugby.

top price corer at the Bulls, then one of the Stormers, won some great titles. And I was in a position where I still had ambitious goals of wanting to play in the Rugby World Cup in 2015. And as great as the Stormers environment was and as comfortable as I was in there, I just knew as individual, I needed something different. And making the decision to go to Toulon put me to Tamir's point in expertise in totally different capacities.

I got to play with the likes of Johnny Wilkinson, Carl Heyman, Ali Williams. Matthew Buster and that elevated my own performance and I tell people for me this merge is very much like that transition from going from South Africa that was a comfortable environment that I was successful in going really well a brand that was a bread to a totally different bottom where the culture Pushed me even further, you know And in that first year and where I see the direct correlation to play me now and the plague of merges like in my first year You know, we won the double we became the first French team to win the top 14 and the high-definition cup in the same year Greg Stewart: Yeah.

Bryan Habana: And it wasn't down to individuals. It was down to, we got called mercenaries, got the Galacticas of the surface of the rugby world in comparison. But it was this collective of incredible leadership set, people willing to continually push themselves, people not comfortable being put in uncomfortable positions of growth. ⁓ And merge me as much as what that time period in my rugby career gives.

And it opens up expertise. Tamir Sacks: Thank Greg Stewart: Yeah. Bryan Habana: where you're constantly challenging yourself and that you're also having to unlearn the steadfast ways in which you are doing things, but having those leadership capabilities around you, specifically leadership. We look at the leadership team that's come over from different methodology, different ways of thinking, different ways of stretching how we think about not only this space, to Tamir's point about the lending space, how do we get people changing behavior, but actually creating a better impact down the line.

Greg Stewart: Yeah. sure. Yeah, if you if you want to stay where you are, get comfortable. If you you want to learn and grow, make get yourself uncomfortable, which which is another lesson for and particularly for business people.

Sometimes you've got to get really uncomfortable to to make sure that ⁓ you're stretching and moving on bigger things. And just in terms of moving on to bigger things, plans looking ahead. I know that have some outside of South Africa, Namibia, I think Pakistan, plans to and capture the African landscape or the other countries, perhaps. Where's it going from here?

maybe I can throw that one at you. Deon Nobrega: I think Greg, our top priority right now was just to get through the merge, make sure that everyone's singing out the same hymn book and we know what our north star is here in South Africa. other markets are ⁓ fine. There's obviously challenges of taking a product across the border, even though it's a fintech.

⁓ Greg Stewart: Right. Deon Nobrega: is still not as easy as what many people might think. regulatory there's market nuances, there's different socioeconomic impacts, there's volatilities. So ⁓ I the market concept in terms of cross border, it's still there.

We are actually exploring some developed market entries. So that's really exciting. Other big opportunities for us still here in South Africa is up until now, we've really been focused on the larger corporates. ⁓ Greg Stewart: Yes.

Deon Nobrega: We've been doing super well in the private sector. Public sector is obviously a massive behemoth opportunity as well. SME space, so your smaller and medium enterprise, is still massively green fields for us as a business model. So it's definitely just getting those priorities right for us.

We have proven that our product does port very well. I mean, you mentioned Pakistan, our app is there. ⁓ Greg Stewart: Yes. Yeah.

Deon Nobrega: totally hosted in country. It's in Urdu and in English. You know, so we've proven that our tech can port very well. Zambia, for example, the biggest usage on our app is mobile money, which something that's not as highly adopted in South Africa.

So it's also those market specific, you know, nuances that you need to embrace. But just maybe touching on what Tamir was saying, the PayMeNar team very much a bunch of techies. We're super good at building robust Greg Stewart: Yeah. Deon Nobrega: reliable, high speed, repeatable technology.

And the interesting and exciting thing for us that the PayCorp team brings is that financial services background and expertise. And we're our product up until now. just to give you an idea. ⁓ Greg Stewart: Hmm.

Deon Nobrega: In January this year, we surpassed one million transactions in a month for the very first time ever in South Africa. That stuff happens at scale. It's fully automated. But where we would like to take people on a journey is to actually bring higher touch financial services products onto the platform.

And that is the exciting stuff that the pay curve team has also brought to the model. So want to go wide. We want to go deep. It's getting those priorities right.

But right now, just bringing the pay curve Greg Stewart: You're right. Deon Nobrega: pay me in our team together and making sure that priorities are aligned. I think the South African market in itself is still actually up for grabs. I'd love to say we are market leaders, but there are so many competitors pop up from also angles that you don't expect.

⁓ potentially, companies are competing with that are working in the HR comm space. And we're actually a fintech. And now we start ⁓ playing in that space well. ⁓ Greg Stewart: Yes.

Yes. Yep. Deon Nobrega: companies that are doing services that were tangential to our business model, we're also starting to disrupt those spaces. So it's a really exciting space to be in.

If you ask us ⁓ where payment going to be in the next five years, that's actually a very tough question. think market dictates our skill sets ⁓ leaning more towards services. But at the same time, we've built such an incredible distribution model that's so highly adopted. Greg Stewart: Mm.

Deon Nobrega: the level of features that we can build out on it is almost endless. So it's a really exciting space to be in. Greg Stewart: It's actually a great business model to have because like you've seen in the banks. Once you've got a like Capitec went out and captured the market, now it's into telecoms and all sorts of insurance.

⁓ So that the classic distribution channel. And ⁓ that looks me like the way that business has been modeled around. Deon Nobrega: Yeah, they're their distribution. Correct.

Greg Stewart: I can only wish you guys every success. ⁓ last thoughts from you, Brian, as to the out there and where it's going? Bryan Habana: Yeah, I think to Dion's point, you know, we getting through this merge and I think that's for both organizations coming together as much as we fully are all aligned with one plus one equaling two, there's one plus one equaling three, there's very much things you have to overcome, know, the couple ways of methodology thinking, you know, we pushing each other each way.

And both Dion and Tamir were CEOs of the independent businesses. Tamir is now our chief growth. executive, which also has a different mind. it's a lot of unlearnings of what we thought was statutory.

And I think for us, it's the first time I've ever gone through Emerge, Dionne's gone through Emerge, and then to me and them have also experienced one or two, but this is like the first real entry point. So I think as an organization and particularly the leadership group, you we need to keep the ship as steady as possible. We need to keep the people as happy as possible, but we also need to continually push the people. And in this growth phase, you don't want to lose the great ones.

or two might fall by the wayside, but it's very important that the leadership becomes aligned with where we're going. We a massive stress session in the next couple of weeks because this last six months has just been navigating this ⁓ &A. To Dion's point, we're very fortunate within the ecosystem ⁓ of knowledge, and IP that we have from a shareholding perspective that we are able to tap into on a weekly, daily basis that constantly pushes us for more. look at our Jacob and it's been amazing, but they constantly say, okay, well, what's next?

And it really is for important to navigate this ability that we currently wanting to achieve, but then also sit and have those hard conversations about what is the short, medium and long-term goals for the organization look like over the next three, six, 12, 18 months. We've got transition clients coming over from the fake of environment to the new payment environment. So there's the unease of the uncomfortability that the Pakeop relationships had and is going to be changing, is it going to be different?

their teams got, and we've now got to bring them onto our system. So there's a navigation that's really incredibly important. But what this Merge Without a Dart, in my opinion, has created is a massive sense of excitement for the opportunity that it comes with. And we don't know to Dion's point what is that long-term future, but we are extremely excited about what this Greg Stewart: Yeah.

Bryan Habana: opportunity presents for each and every one of us, not just in terms of our own upskilling, but what the benefit can be for the end user. And I would continuously innovate, adapt, and what is that ever change? mean, the world is moving faster, particularly now with AI than what has ever moved before. And if I tell you we're going to be in the same position this time next month, Greg, please ask Dion to tackle me, which he has done once or twice in our life previously as roommates.

Greg Stewart: sure. you Bryan Habana: But think it's navigating the merge, really coming together and having those hard conversations, understanding, I think, geopolitical landscape that's facing the world at the minute, right? I mean, we put petrol vouchers onto our platform ⁓ months ago, not knowing that we can have this global crisis around the world. And now just seeing how there's a reduction in people actually driving because they want to...

So it's a constant navigation. But I think for us, the excitement is real. The excitement is tangible. I think the respect...

Greg Stewart: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Bryan Habana: amongst the senior executive leadership is the utmost manner of what we've achieved and that the potential of where we're going is something that we cannot wait to grasp with both hands.

I would love to have a crystal ball and look into the future, but that would be like asking me, do I know why Ward-Ragge's decision making so inconsequential? If ⁓ I the to that, Greg, I would be a billionaire in rands, not in dollars. ⁓ Greg Stewart: You ⁓ yeah. ⁓ yeah.

Yeah, and just lots of momentum and positive energy I'm sensing in the team. And Tamir, Brian, Dion, we're kind of out of time here. I'd love to have another discussion with you. But really, it's These success stories are important for the country.

And thank you for opening up about your journey, you've experienced. These wonderful lessons that ⁓ other entrepreneurs can learn from. And hopefully, we'll see more flourishing across the African landscape. So to all three of you, thank you very much.

It's great having you on No Free Lunch. Tamir Sacks: Thanks, Greg. Deon Nobrega: Thanks, Greg.