Are you ready for Digital Product Passports?

Speaker A: I think most people are trying to find ways to live more sustainably, and sometimes that means making choices about what you buy in order to try and minimize your own environmental impact. But how do you really know whether one product is more environmentally friendly than another one? Well, soon digital product passports will be mandatory for some products, and I wonder if they're going to help consumers make better informed choices about what they buy. Let's find out in this episode of Navigating Digital Payments. Welcome to the Navigating Digital Payments podcast brought to you by worldline, bringing you the latest innovations, trends and predictions about the future of payments. Hello and, um, welcome to this episode of the Navigating Digital Payments podcast. I'm David Daly. I look after the Discovery Hub here at worldline. And today I'm really delighted to be joined by two great guests to discuss this topic of digital product passports. We're joined by Anouk Geradson. She is CSR specialist at JOG Group, which is behind three fashion brands, Garcia Chasing and Jean Centre, which in combination have over 100 stores in over 30 countries. Anouk, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker B: Hey, David, thanks for having me.

Speaker A: Really great to have you on board for this discussion and to give the point of view of a fashion brand. And also joining us, we have Edwin Deinder, who, who is the Chief Innovation Officer for the Enterprise Business Group at Huawei Technologies. Edwin, great to have you on board.

Speaker C: Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.

Speaker A: Really good to have you here. Also, I think, giving maybe more of the, uh, technological and solution side of the picture for digital product passports. So I'd really like to begin by understanding what digital product passports are for. Why is there a need for them? Who's going to benefit? And then I'd probably like to come on to understanding a bit more about which businesses are going to be impacted by these regulations and what they're going to have to do. And then maybe finally we can all discuss a little bit the challenges that these regulations might create, but also some of the new opportunities that they're going to bring. But before I come on to all of that, maybe I can start with you, Anouk, and just ask you, um, for the benefit of listeners who might not be familiar with digital product passports, might not have heard about them, could you start by explaining in very simple terms what a digital product passport is?

Speaker B: Yes, of course. Uh, what a digital product passport is. It's literally in the name. It's a passport for products, and they say for high risk products. And what is in the product Passport is the country of origin of a product. It's the material, it's the durability, it's maybe chemical components which are in the product. Uh, and in the future, also a life cycle assessment and CO2 data. This all needs to be visible for, uh, end consumers for over 5 years. So all those components need to be visible during the lifetime of a product.

Speaker A: And maybe just to clarify for me, because it's something I kind of get confused about when we talk about a product. Is it for a product range, let's say so one design of T shirt, for example, or is it literally for each specific T shirt, each specific item, if you like?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good question because there's, uh, a lot of discussion about this within this regulation. Um, but it is for every single T shirt, of course, it's a badge. So if we make one T shirt in three colors, then we have three digital product passports attached to that, one order of T shirts.

Speaker A: So if I understand. Well, Anouk, for each production run, you have to have a digital product passport that contains the precise details for that product that's been manufactured.

Speaker B: Yes, that's correct.

Speaker A: Okay, and could you maybe also say what's behind this regulation? Why is it coming in? What need is it trying to address?

Speaker B: Of course, to mitigate risks, because we don't want to have risk in consumer products. We want consumer products to be safe, especially within the high risk items that it's addressing. And of course, transparency. We want to be transparent in all markets and we want to tell our consumers where our products are coming from also that they can make precise decision of, okay, I don't want a product coming from this certain country, or maybe you sell products to a certain country which are banning products that are coming from the country.

Speaker A: So it's about reducing risk for the consumer so that they have some certainty about the origins of a product and also about transparency so they can really see what the makeup of a product is, where it's come from, how it's been produced. It's nice to have that kind of very straightforward explanation. And just to start off with Edwin, maybe now I could come to you and ask you what's this going to mean for businesses? What kinds of businesses are going to be impacted by these regulations?

Speaker C: Generally speaking, every industry is going to be subject to digital, uh, product passports, either producing them, um, by themselves for their own families of products and individual items within these families of products, or to join consortia, uh, to be part of alliances and industry associations that take care, not so much of all the policies and regulations and legalities with regards to digital product passports, but with regards to establishing them, uh, combining all different kind of elements that you need to prepare before you can even apply or go forward into creating a digital product passport. So in effectively all industries, uh, no matter which ones, you have the European Union, who has a clear direction where they want to go with this in different stages. The first stage, if I'm correct, sits with, um, technical products in the energy domain. And then very specifically energy storage. And not industrial scale, but home and consumer market, uh, products for energy storage, batteries for, uh, consumers. And then of course, after that, in the second and third stage to scale up and scale out to larger systems, um, automotive, car tires and what have you, but also fashion.

Speaker A: So, Edwin, I think, um, it's interesting you mentioned fashion there. And Anouk, I'd like to hear a bit more from you in a moment about what it really means for fashion brands. But, Edward, can you talk a little bit more about the battery side of things? And Anouk mentioned higher risk categories. Is that why that's being prioritised? What's behind having batteries as one of the first product categories that'll be subject to this regulation?

Speaker C: Well, the clear driver for this one, of course, sits with, uh, risk mitigation, sits with, um, security assessments, sits with having a supply chain, perhaps that's maybe not always that easy to trace back or follow through if you like. But it also sits with the vast majority of these kind of products that are coming from so many different countries at the same time in the same way that it almost becomes virtually impossible, physically speaking and from a human point of view, to keep track and to trace it all and to create all the paperwork that's needed for any product that goes into the European Union, for example, that needs to be, uh, qualified, needs to be certified, needs to be approved, needs to be checked and balanced against all terms and conditions and regulations, physically speaking, so to speak. So having a mechanism of a digital product passport is a very good foundation, digitally speaking, to create, let's say, a better and a stronger foundation to handle vast amounts of volumes, uh, probably with the component of AI, not only just vast amounts of volumes, but also be more accurate in the checks and balances of it and for it, um, as well as in the approval of it. So I guess in these terms and in these corners of thinking is where it comes from.

Speaker A: Predominantly just listening to your answer, it makes me think about how the world of commerce has changed over the last 20 to 30 years. And I think we saw it during COVID and we've seen it with more recent geopolitical developments, is just how interconnected and global supply chains are. Which, of course, makes it far more complex to understand where things are sourced from. But I'm also thinking more from the retail perspective, where I think 20, 30 years ago, if the battery in your vacuum cleaner wasn't working anymore, you'd go to the dealership and you'd buy your battery there. And so, to some extent, you had confidence and you had trust because you were going to this known store where you purchased the original vacuum cleaner from. And now, I guess people have many more options for where they source their components from. Could be domestic, could be from abroad. And that, uh, again, makes it more challenging to know that what you're buying is really authentic, but also compliant and safe and meets regulations.

Speaker C: Sure, yeah, for sure.

Speaker B: That's also the same in fashion, because back in the days when your jeans, your button was broken, or you had a hole in your T shirt, you would go to a sewing shop down the street and they would repair it for you. But nowadays, almost, the shop don't exist anymore, at least not in the Netherlands, where I live. And also, people don't know how to repair them themselves. But in the digital product Passport, there's also part of durability and repairness. Uh, so the consumer is educated by the fashion brand how to repair or how a shop can repair garment and not buy a new one. Because we're in a fast fashion market, I would say, which is, uh, yeah, very sad because people will wear it just a couple of times and then throw the item away. But if we can repair item that we really love and which still fits us, it will be better for the environment.

Speaker C: If I may tap into this part a little bit, I can very much imagine, because I live in Southeast Asia. I live in Bangkok, to be exact, and in Thailand, uh, but also in Indonesia, uh, or Vietnam or Cambodia. There are specific, uh, groups of people who have organized themselves into craft work. They make beautiful designs, like in Indonesia with batik and all that stuff. They're all over this area here in Southeast Asia. And of course, they try to find ways to sell their products, their T shirts, their undergarments, their trousers or what have you, uh, tablecloth, bed sheets in specific designs. The opportunity for these people to bring their product in a global scale is there because digital and cloud mechanisms allows them to do so. But for a consumer to then be able to, let's say, remotely connect to this small homegrown area in the Backyard of someone in the heart of Cambodia or Indonesia or what have you. Producing these items just by scanning a QR code that sits on the product that you buy in Holland or the US or anywhere in the world. And maybe by scanning this QR code, it's not just a digital product passport that allows it as a product. Just like a person that has a passport to go through customs and enter a certain region or a country, but in return also provides information with regards to who designed this, who made this stamp that, you know, has been carved out of wood in a very nice and very craftsman, high level, uh, quality way. And the ink that's being applied to it and the pressing machine that goes on it and then it's repeated to get this repetitive design and motive on clothing and what have you. I think is far more interesting and far more justifying the use and the need for a digital product passport to link, you know, the creator of it with the user of it and anything in between.

Speaker B: Yeah, Edwin, I think you're. You're totally right. From a fashion perspective, it means transparency, but it also means that as a company, you could tell a great story. Uh, and transparency back in the days was very hard because suppliers, uh, which make the garments in Asian countries, in South America countries, don't want to be transparent. Where their products are coming from, how it's made, how many workers they are working, where the workers are coming from. And this is. Yeah, this is a big challenge for us as a fashion company, uh, because we need to talk to all our suppliers and ask them questions like, where are your products coming from? Who are making the products? Uh, are the locations in the country that you're saying that they are, which, which is a big challenge. So for us, it gives a lot of workload. But it's also very interesting because we get to talk to people which back in the days we don't get to talk to, and we get to hear their stories, and we are able to tell their stories. So when we started mapping out all our suppliers, it was very hard because it said like, okay, I don't want to show you. I don't want to show you the back door where maybe, uh, migrant workers are, are walking out. When we are coming in, we don't want to show you everything. We said like, okay, uh, but why. Why don't you want to show us everything? Because we are interested, and if there's something not going well, we are also here to help you. So within the fashion industry, I think it supports collaboration, collaboration between other brands, but Also collaboration between supplier and brand, because in the end, we are all here to make the same garment.

Speaker C: I could totally relate to that. I can understand the counter questions of, uh, craftspeople asking back, like, you know, why do you want to know this? Why are you so nosy? Is something wrong? Uh, did something happen in a previous batch that you got from me? Tell me what it is. I can totally imagine that, yeah.

Speaker B: And especially what you said about is something wrong with previous badge you got from me? Um, within the fashion industry, we said before it's about high impact, uh, products. Uh, if we think about a garment, we don't think it's a high impact product, but if we put it on the microscope, you see that there is maybe metal in it because we use a button. There are certain plastics in it because maybe we use a plastic button. The sewing thread which is sewn into garment, from fabric to garment, is an other material than your actual fabric of the garment. There are multiple dye stuffs, there are multiple chemicals to dye your garment. So all this makes the product a high risk product because it can create skin irritation. Or maybe when you're allergic to something, you can have a bad reaction to it. And there's also a regulation for child safety. When you make clothing for children, parts need to be really good, sticking to it. Or you're not allowed to make a button in, uh, the shape of a strawberry because a child can think, oh, it's a strawberry, let's eat it. So there are multiple risk. And all those risks can be put in the digital product passport. So you could say to a parent which is buying a product, like, please make sure the kid doesn't put the button in his mouth, or please wash the garment with similar colors, because if you put the red garment with the white garment, it will bleed and all the garments will be pink in the end because of all the dye stuff in it.

Speaker A: Listening to everything that both of you have just said there, it really reminds me that at the moment, I think it is really difficult for consumers to make comparisons between products about how they are made and whether that's the welfare of the people that are making it, or whether that's the sustainability of the component parts. Um, as you were mentioning, Anouk, I think it's, uh, I'm not going to say it's impossible, but I think if I was stood in a store looking at three T shirts, it would be incredibly difficult for me to actually get some idea of the background to each of those T shirts and which one I think I should buy. Based on those criteria. So I think it is really interesting. It also reminds me we've covered on the podcast before in terms of payments, this trust angle that, you know, if you have a small independent fashion retailer on the corner or a well known brand retailer, you know, there's a lot of trust that you've built up with them. Um, and basically you assume that the products are good and safe and that they are trying their best to protect the environment because you know the brand. But as soon as you're buying from someone that you don't know, no, it's much harder. And I think that's coming to your point, Edwin. It opens up the markets potentially more because people who are selling can provide this level of trust that at the moment can only be provided by well known brands or local stores that you know very well.

Speaker B: Yeah, I would agree as well. I think it's, uh, very necessary to have a comparison. Uh, because if there are two retailers in, uh, the shopping streets, you want to compare the item which you're buying. And also this is done already, of course, in the food market or in the, the refrigerator market, there are all those labels attached to it, uh, ranking the machine or ranking the food quality. So I think this is very valuable for consumers if they want to buy a product and they can say, oh, uh, this product has entered four countries already before it's sold to me. I don't want that. I want a product which is made in one country and then brought by ship to me. So the CO2, uh, emissions are lower. But also when, for instance, consumers buy products from the companies I work for and they like the product and they buy a T shirt next year, they could see that the T shirt is made in the same manufacturer as the previous year. So if they like the quality or if they like the print or if they like the fit, they could see, oh, it's made by the same manufacturer. So I trust that it will be a good item because I have the one from last year already.

Speaker A: And that's a really good point that sometimes you think you're buying the same product. Uh, but of course it may have been manufactured in a completely different way a year later or two or two years later. I have to admit that I just like to buy the same pair of shoes every time. When one pair wears out, I buy the closest possible match. Um, maybe not very adventurous, but like I say, and then it frustrates me if I can't get something that's pretty close to, uh, what I had last time. Uh, creature of Habit, definitely.

Speaker C: You mentioned earlier about, uh, it opens markets, which I fully agree it does. It creates more transparency and all that, but it also does something else, I think. It also creates market, it expands market, it creates opportunity for new roles, if you like, especially on the industry side of the equation. Maybe not so much of the consumer, but it could be. But for example, on the industry side of the equation, you can perhaps imagine that for an organization to now move into or forward towards, um, having to deal with digital product passports, uh, how to do that, how to navigate this process, opens an opportunity for organizations and let's say people in the middle that can take care of this, that consult on it, uh, become an advisor for it or a coordinator for it. So it opens markets, it creates a market, but it also expands a market.

Speaker B: Yeah, Edwin, you're totally right because, uh, with the company I work for, we did it ourselves, which cost a lot of work, a lot of time, a lot of discussions for the buying team, a lot of flights towards the countries to actually check whether, uh, the facilities are actually there. But there are great companies which can help you with this, with the data variation, which have, uh, men on the ground in multiple countries. Um, so for other companies who might start this journey, I would highly recommend go and talk to these companies. Let's see what they could do for you. If you're a small company, if your CSR department is only one or two persons, um, there are great companies out there which could help you with data variation and could help you align with the digital product passport regulation.

Speaker A: And maybe on that note, in a moment, I'd actually really like to discuss with you both a little bit the challenges side. So kind of what are the difficulties or the hard parts for companies that are having to implement this, but also what are some of the benefits that people might not be aware of? Uh, before we come on to that, I do just want to let people know that they can contact the podcast. Uh, if you want to make suggestions for topics to cover, give us any feedback, you can reach us by emailing ndp-podcastorldline.com and then my usual gentle reminder that if you haven't already, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode and also leave us a rating and a review. So perhaps, Edwin, I can start with you. Um, you obviously speak to a lot of clients. What sort of concerns do you hear from them or what challenges do you see that they are facing when it comes to digital product passports?

Speaker C: Well, a couple. Uh, the first one is always make or buy, which is a very generic one, technically speaking, but it also specifically relates to a digital product passport. Do we work with an organization that's going to help us get it or do we make it on our own? Do we create our own platform with our own systems and services with regards to a digital product passport, I would say both. If you're, uh, for example, the organization that I represent, uh, we have a lot of product lines that are producing and manufacturing a tremendous amount of products. Clearly we have to be compliant everywhere and anywhere in the world. And the best way to do that is to have your own systems and services and your own foundation. With regards to compliancy, as things become more digital, uh, compliance also becomes more digital. The digital product passport is a good example of that. So we must have, and we will have our own foundation and our own system with regards to our own products that require, because of compliancy, uh, the mechanism or the element, uh, with regards to a digital product passport that also taps into having, um, understood how to do that and then being able to advise on it is not a role that we would take, but is something that we would partner with and partner on. For example, with Verity and Worldline, our partnerships as we have with them when it comes to the technology that helps them to create and build an even wider and even stronger and an even more global, uh, foundation, cloud enabled with regards to not only the family of products, uh, within the partnership that we have with them, but with any other organization in the world that is embarking on the same journey and it moves forward in the same direction, that also needs their products and their family of products to be foreseen from a digital product passport that is a much wider scale, that is a much stronger and more heavier foundation. If you like to carry all these different systems and services, not just from an advisory or a consulting role point of view, but also from an implementation, from a rollout, from uh, data sovereignty and so on and so forth. And with all these items that I'm just mentioning now. So each of them are as, let's say, pockets in a long chain of going forward, each of these pockets bring their own challenges and has their own questions with regards to organizations that either I speak to or people that I work with. With regards to this one digital product passport that we talk about right now, so that's on the make or buy kind of item. The other one sits with trust a lot. Um, what's wrong with my product? I, um, already have a product or a family of products or I got a good affiliation with the European Union, but why would I need to convert everything that I got, and for which I worked very hard and which was very tremendously complex to eventually put in place and be approved for? So now I got it all in place. I'm an company from Asia Pacific or somewhere in Southeast Asia or maybe even from China. I got my affiliation with the European Union. I am certified and approved and qualified for everything to bring into the European Union. I pay my duties and so on and so forth. And now I need to do it again, but make it more digital. Uh, but why? What's wrong? Um, so the trust part fits in again. As I mentioned earlier, the mechanism of a digital product password not only opens up a market, but also creates a market. So this transparency part, from a consulting and an advisory role point of view, with regards to trust and trustworthiness, is a stronger element, perhaps that could be tapped into by other organizations and picked up maybe as a new level of service. But the majority of questions that I am getting is much more about opportunity. The questions I get most are more into the direction of, okay, so if this is a mechanism that's going to be put in place, would it then be possible to. Or can I then also use it for, uh, is there a way to, you know, and then whatever comes after is a very opportunistic question to be answered, which, by the way, I find very interesting to, uh, address and to be part of, because it also triggers my imagination. You know, if I'm speaking to people in our supply chain with regards to, you know, we need to work on this digital product passport, it's not about the level of risk or the level of transparency that's not up. Uh, it's really very much about, okay, how can we make this work for us? That's a very good angle, I would say, with regards to where most of the questions are coming in and where the conversations are leading it into, it's really interesting.

Speaker A: We had a podcast episode once. I think it was titled, um, does Regulation Stifle or Kill Innovation? And, um, I think often regulation is seen as pure burden. And very honestly, sometimes it is a high burden. I can't deny that. But almost always it creates new opportunities, at least for some players.

Speaker C: For sure. Yeah, for sure. I think the company I represent is a very good example of how, let's say regulation on one end creates opportunities and drives innovation all the way towards the other end.

Speaker A: So you've mentioned that in terms of challenges, there's the, the make or buy decision and then there's maybe this challenge around. Well, why do we have to do this? But you were saying that many clients that you talk to, uh, are seeing that there could be some opportunities, some benefits here. Anouk, uh, in terms of, from the perspective of a fashion brand, you've mentioned maybe some of the benefits, the storytelling and the transparency. Are there other opportunities you're seeing or other benefits that you think could come from digital product passports for you?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, to start with, within the company I work for, we also had the discussion, like, why would we do this? Why would we make our whole supply chain transparent so all suppliers are visible for consumers. Will consumers even have a look at this? But in the end, now we see like, oh, this gives us so many opportunities. We can, uh, put this in the product passport, which is not mandatory, but we just want to share it. Uh, maybe the risk about chemicals. We can, uh, when there's a test regarding chemicals and it of course passes or maybe fails, you can put it in the digital product passport, because when you scan it and it has a fail and you haven't seen the pop up on the website, like, please bring back this garment because it. It is toxic. Sometimes happens, you can edit in the digital product passport and it pops up when you want to scan it, because maybe there's a hole in it and you want to repair it after two years. And you see, like, oh, I now see these meshes that, that let's not wear it. So for consumers, it gives a lot of information about the garments. And for us, as a fashion brand, it supports collaboration, collaboration between us and our suppliers, between us and other brands. Because when, for instance, we want to improve something in a factory, the factories we use are not owned by us, but Maybe we have 50 or 60% of the production capacity. So we are important for our suppliers and the suppliers are important for us. But maybe when there is a chemical issue, it is because a washing machine in the facility is not working properly anymore because they used it for 20 years. It will cost tons of money, thousands of euros. So we could call another brand which we see on a digital product passport, which is working with this facility as well. Like, hey, let's collaborate. Let's put in some money together. Let's buy a new washing machine for this facility so we all have safe products in the end. And I think that is very valuable for this industry. Because back in the days was like, okay, we will not share our supplier list. It's a supplier which we are only using, which is completely not true. If I look at Dutch fashion brands. We are most of the times producing in a facility all together. Most of the times there are four or five other Dutch brands asking the same products from the same facilities. So this collaboration is very valuable. And also because we want to have a certain standard in this facility, we are pushing our European uh, way of working, way of living on this facilities and we are forcing them to follow us. Which of course is good because we want a certain standard in life and we want to have our suppliers and our workers to have this certain uh, standards in life as well. But this is not done overnight. We need to collaborate, we need to put in money all together to make sure that for those workers there's a safe environment, they can make safe products for us, but they can also work in the same way.

Speaker A: And look, it's again interesting listening to your answer on the second point. It allows for this more industry wide collaboration potentially. But I was also struck by your answer where you said putting additional things into the passport that are not necessarily mandatory. And it reminds me, I'm sure I saw a statistic that um, younger generations are becoming less brand loyal. They don't just automatically go back to the same brand. Which of course means that brands have to find ways to engage with their customers and maintain that loyalty more actively. And I guess that digital product passports, yes, on the one hand it's about transparency and providing information but it is another way to build the relationship with the end consumers and maintain the engagement with them potentially.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's totally right because I have a lot of clothing in my, in my closet hanging. But I don't follow all those brands. For instance on Instagram or on a Facebook page or maybe on TikTok. Um, but if I scan a QR code there could be maybe uh, how to wear video or a style video. Or if you have bought this, you could also buy this because you would like this as well. So for brands it gives a very good opportunity to yeah, engage more with your consumer and ah, make them more aware of you without giving them all notifications on certain uh, streaming platforms or social media platforms.

Speaker A: And Edwin, maybe I could just come back to you then to maybe finish off. And you mentioned earlier that many of your clients are seeing the potential opportunity here. Can you say a little bit more um, beyond what Anouk's been mentioning in terms of what opportunities they're finding or what benefits they're seeing?

Speaker C: Well if you look at our cloud activities, we have our own cloud, it's globally available. It's a very specific Cloud, if you compare it to other cloud operators and cloud providers, because it's born out of a necessity and it's born out of an industry. That means the cloud that we have now is based on industry credentials and industry ways of the need and necessity for cloud. And one of the programs we have in there is to bring your business to the cloud. Because cloud, I don't think we have to explain how that works or what the benefits of cloud are, because there are many benefits. And it's very good to put your business on cloud if you put it on cloud in a certain way. So there's many organizations, small and medium organizations, that have brought their local business to a cloud locally. And a program that we have within this cloud is to allow our partners and our customers who are on this cloud with their business to see if they want to scale out. So, for example, if you are a Vietnamese manufacturer of rice, for example, or other veggies, or products like clothing, for example, as I mentioned earlier, or you're in Indonesia with batik and that sort of thing, and you've got your business on the cloud, you are able, via the Huawei cloud, to expand your business to the other countries in the same region. That makes it more easy, that makes it very scalable. Uh, that also gives it opportunity to make it more individual. You just mentioned something that triggered my thought, actually, where you said brand. People choose a brand and the younger generation of today doesn't choose a brand anymore. I think brand is maybe not the right word. They might choose a product, but maybe they choose it because of someone. So someone made it. Maybe this is a person who becomes, uh, visible now, who becomes tangible, who becomes someone to speak to, someone to engage with, someone to have not only a collaboration with, but also a communication with, because of a store that has a specific T shirt or that has specific bed sheets or that has whatever product you buy that is made by this particular individual. Individual, even though that person maybe is one of a hundred in a factory. Right. And the reason I came to this point is also a very simple one. I remember from a long time ago when I was moving house, we bought a new house and we needed window blinds and curtains. And the individual person, the installer that installed the window blinds. On the window blinds, there was a little sticker that says made by John and another one had a sticker that says made by Emily and whatever. But there was no QR code that I could scan to thank Emily for making a great product that fits my window with a digital product passport that is very easy to do. There's many other ways of doing that as well. In my case, I could really go to my supplier and say, is Emily here? Yes, that's her in the corner making this great window blind that we bought. You know, that sort of conversation, that sort of things. There are many opportunities in this way that we never thought possible with regards to speaking of a digital product passport that is there to mitigate risk, that is there to create more control and to allow more transparency and insights and looking very deeply and very detailed into a supply chain. Uh, with regards to, let's say, the European Union, that says this is what we need to know before it goes into Europe. Otherwise it doesn't go into Europe, and we need to be as clear as it can from cradle to grave and beyond. Um, so that's one side of the equation, or that's one angle I think is worth mentioning. The last part, maybe that sits within this is. I am really very surprised, actually, that a mechanism like this triggers the imagination for opportunities. The world really becomes flat, as Thomas Friedman already wrote in one of his books a long, long time ago, which is very true. You know, technically speaking, there, uh, are no borders. There are no boundaries. Everything goes from A to B horizontally. It doesn't go in verticals. It doesn't go in pockets. It doesn't go in silos. It is regulation and policies that brings it into silos. And this is a good example of how a mechanism like a digital product passport as a principle, is not so much breaking these silos down, but is bridging these silos. It's like a stepping stone almost. So in closing, I would say that, uh, with every challenge comes a new opportunity, or every challenge is or gives an opportunity. And I'm very pleased by the level of thought that our partners already have with regards to this opportunity that comes along with a digital product passport.

Speaker A: It has been a really fascinating discussion, and, uh, it's been really very interesting for me to listen to you both talk about digital product passport. And I think part of what's interesting is that right at the start we said, you know, this is, um, somewhat a reaction to globalization of commerce. And it's introducing a control and, um, with that, some transparency for consumers and some benefits. But then coming right back around to what you just said there, Edwin, it's also in some ways opening up markets and making the world more flat, to reuse, uh, the phrase that. That you mentioned, and actually making it easier to do business across borders in the long term. So I think that's really interesting. And then I think as well, maybe a final point is that it's reminding me again of that regulation versus innovation. And the reality is you can't separate the two. They are linked. And yes, there is an element of effort and energy required from businesses to implement this, but there are also upsides and benefits and maybe even, I think if I understood you well, Edwin, sometimes it is the opportunity to think, well, actually, whilst we do this, we can also do these other things that we never did before. Um, it kind of gives us the momentum or it catalyses some other changes. I think that's been really interesting to explore with you both. So, yeah, I really, as I say, very fascinating to listen to you both. Um, thank you so much for joining us, uh, for this episode. Anouk, thank you very much for being here with us.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: Again, really great to have you on the show. And also, Edwin, thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker C: You're welcome. It's my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: And that just leaves me, of course, finally, to thank you, our, uh, dear listeners, for listening once again to this episode of Navigating Digital Payments. Thank you for listening to the Navigating Digital Payments podcast, brought to you by worldline. Join us next time to learn more about the latest innovations, trends and performance predictions for the future of payments.