Ep 58. Private Equity to Public Purpose: Inside Ashish Dhawan’s mission to build India’s future

Speaker A: I don't think you need to sell India anymore. We are, uh, a $4 trillion economy. I think most people globally believe that India will be a $10 trillion economy in 2035. Position they're in to generate Alpha now, it's not just riding the market. It's about truly having some on the sourcing side, being able to have certain networks and get better access to deals and to be a really good steward of the company. So I think the role private equity now is playing is in helping build better Indian companies and secondly in improving governance in the companies. A huge sector and it's recession proof, it's tariff proof. Um, it's going to be around irregardless of AI and all kids are going to go to school. I can see that in my lifetime, hopefully that we could be in a completely different place. As a country, that excites me. I think the best equity, the best inclusion is good jobs for our citizens. The state's role is to help business, not to deter business. As Mao said, women hold up half the sky. We have hundreds of billions of dollars of value we can create by getting women to play up to their potential. I think government needs to turn more of a blind eye, deregulate, which is what China did, and let businesses grow. And then really the magic happens with markets. We want our best students to stay back in India. We want great research to be done out of India. Uh, we want universities rooted in the Indian context. India is in a different place. We have capital, we have access to technology, we have global partnership. We have everything on our doorstep. So I Hope that in 2047, when the world is infused with technology and AI, we will be grounded because of ancient intelligence.

Speaker B: Very well said, Ashish. Welcome to a new episode of Money Modulus. I'm in New Delhi, India and today we're going to explore a remarkable career that spans Wall street investing, building one of India's most successful private equity firms and then making a bold pivot into nation building through philanthropy, education and institution building. My guest today is someone whose work has come quietly but powerfully shaped both Indian capital markets and Indian classrooms. Ashish Dhawan is widely regarded as one of India's most successful private equity investors and one of its most thoughtful philanthropists. Our conversation will range from the global and Indian private equity landscape to the future of human capital in India, to what it takes to build enduring institutions like Ashoka University and large scale system reform platforms in education and skilling. But before I get into it, here's a message from my sponsors.

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Speaker B: Ashish Dhawan uh is an Indian philanthropist and former private equity investor whose career has straddled high finance and high impact social change. Born in New Delhi in 1969 and schooled in Kolkata, my home city, he went on to Yale University where he graduated Magna Cum Laude in Applied Mathematics and Economics. He followed this by an MBA with distinction from Harvard Business School and began his professional journey on Wall street at Goldman Sachs in the Risk Arbitrage Group and later at UH Wassa Street Barela, sharpening his skills in complex transactions and value creation. At just 29, UH Ashi's return to India and co founded Kris Capital in 1999 at a time when India focused private equity was still nascent. Over the next two decades, Chris Capital grew into one of India's most respected PE platforms, raising around $8.5 billion across 10P funds at AH, a continuation vehicle deploying over $5.5 billion into more than 110 portfolio companies and returning to his investors a reported 3x multiple across 80 plus exits. In 2025, Chris Capital closed its 10th and largest fund at AH $2.2 billion, the biggest India focused private equity fund ever raised, underscoring global investor confidence in both the firm and in the India story. In his second career, Ashish UH has focused on nation building. He founded Central Square foundation to improve foundational learning outcomes in government schools. He is the Founder CEO of the Convergence foundation, which backs high impact organizations working on human capital, foundational learning, skilling and labor mobility, women's economic empowerment and more as India aspires to become a developed economy. He is also a founder trustee of Ashoka University, one of India's pioneering liberal arts universities. Built through collective philanthropy and widely seen as a bold experiment in high quality interdisciplinary higher education. Ashish also serves on advisory bodies at Yale and Harvard, reflecting his deep commitment to education globally. Ashish, it's a pleasure to have you on. Mani Majlis, thank you for joining us. Let me start with an icebreaker question. You've gone from Wall street to Dalal street to what I would call Policy Street. If your career so far were the title of a Bollywood movie, what would it be called?

Speaker A: Oh, that's a tough one. But I, uh, would say From Money to Purpose.

Speaker B: Excellent, excellent. Um, let me just move back to a big picture question, Ashi. Given the fact that you've been in the PNBC industry for a long time, it seems that after a couple of choppy years, the India PVC market is back on an equilibrium. Deployments have rebounded and India now accounts for roughly 1/5. Buyouts have become much more important part of the story. How do you interpret this new normal for India in the global capital stack? Is India now viewed as a true core allocation for global P and sovereign funds and what could still derail this positioning?

Speaker A: So yeah, I think India has changed a lot. When I started in 99, it was right after the Asian financial crisis and we had to go and sell India. I don't think you need to sell India anymore. We are uh, a $4 trillion economy. I think most people globally believe that India will be a $10 trillion economy in 2035.

Speaker B: Hm.

Speaker A: We have always delivered long term sustained growth. The macro risks in India have always been lower than the rest of the emerging world. We've not defaulted on softened paper, we've been a responsible actor, et cetera, et cetera. So whenever I've talked to investors, I think they feel confident that India is stable, it's steady, it delivers returns and it's a large market. So I think that in that sense it's core. I think most of em in Latin America. Africa is non existent. Even in ASEAN pales in comparison. The only place really is China, which attracted a lot of western capital earlier and now has shifted more to domestic capital with geopolitics, uh, kicking in. And of course there are developed countries in Asia, Australia, Japan, South Korea, which attract a lot of capital. So I think India is in a very, very good position. Uh, and it's not just private equity. I think it's buyouts, growth capital venture, now Inbits, REITs, um, a variety of real assets in addition to um, private equity. Uh, I think what could derail this story is I think that geopolitics is turning very rapidly. I believe that there will be some degree of financial repression in the Western world, particularly in America, because They'll need to. Their debt levels are so high, uh, they will sequester capital to stay more at home and the same in Western Europe. So could that mean reduced fund flows to India going forward, not because India is a weak story, but because it's a geopolitical phenomenon? Um, likelihood of that is still low because I think India's share will keep growing because we will be an ally, uh, not in the other camp, as it were. But I think there is a risk there that we have a big shock to the system in the coming years. And, um, everything goes down in the middle of shock. We'll come out, we'll bounce back faster and stronger than anyone else. But that is a real risk.

Speaker B: Ashree, uh, you talked about the PE momentum there. How much of this momentum, um, is structural anchoring demographics, domestic consumption, digital adoption and reforms, and how much is simply relative trade against China and other markets?

Speaker A: So there is a big structural piece because India keeps growing. And India also, apart from the growth, I think there is a changed mindset in terms of families wanting to sell their business. Uh, and so buyouts, which were negligible earlier, now has become very prominent. So I think that mindset change. You've also seen a big change in entrepreneurial activity, uh, with VC funds coming in the number of, so that pool. So there's the India growth, but then I would say more financialization of the economy and more entrepreneurship, more people wanting to exit businesses, etc. There is also some element of moving away from China. So a great example of that is global funds that raise their Asia funds, which for some of the large players like Blackstone and KKR, like a $10 billion Asia fund that they would typically raise. Historically, India would be like a 20% allocation. 15, 20%. China would be the largest allocation. Um, I think that has changed in the last cycle, where India is now actually like 40, 50%. And the rest is Japan, Korea, Australia, sort of developed Asia and a little bit of ASEAN. And China is either zero or they're dabbling at 5, 10%. But most of the LPs have told them Western LPs that they ought not to be more than about 10%. So I think that shift really brings much more capital to India, uh, uh, as well.

Speaker B: But do you see evidence that India has finally built depth across the entire P life cycle? Let's say, from sourcing to scaling to exiting, or are there still structural weak spots in that entire process?

Speaker A: No, I think we're pretty sophisticated now. So I think whether it's, uh, sourcing Exits, exits. You've got a robust IPO market. Obviously, if markets are down, that market could shut down for a period of time. But there's a lot of sponsor to sponsor selling as well. A fund that is, um, slightly smaller check size, writes $50 million checks, grows the business, and then could sell to another financial sponsor that's writing a 202, $50 million check. So I think there is a lot of liquidity in the ecosystem. Uh, so I don't think that's the constraint in India. I think the worry always is, are we going to get too much capital ahead of the opportunity? And that of course, means higher prices, lower expected returns. And, uh, but I think that's the way markets work. I mean, in any market there'll be a cycle when there's too much money. And, uh, that fund that you raise, the expected return may be a little bit lower than average. And there'll be points in time when people are worried and they're running scared and you actually have the opportunity to generate higher IRR when you're investing in that period.

Speaker B: On that point, Ashish, let's double click a bit on Kris Capital. Uh, Chris Capital's latest fund, the 10th fund, I believe at about $2.2 billion, is not only the largest vehicle, but also one of the clearest symbols how India focused managers are scaling up. Now, if you were back in the GPC full time today, how do you think about using a vehicle of that scale, ticket sizes, concentration, buyout versus minority and sector bets, so that you don't just write the India macro story, but actually generate differentiated alpha in a market that's increasingly more crowded and more competitive?

Speaker A: Yeah. So, firstly, I'm very proud of the fact that we made a very successful transition. I actually left after, as we were raising our sixth fund, and I was not a part of that fund, but I did go on the road, um, as my colleagues were raising it. And the fact that we got to a 10th fund, it's the largest, it's significant, makes me very proud that we made this. And I've not been involved at all for 14 years now, so it's a long period of time. Um, I think that in the position they're in to generate alpha now, it's not just riding the market, it's about truly having some on the sourcing side, being able to have certain networks and get better, um, access to deals. I mean, I just read in the papers, I haven't even talked to them about it, uh, that they closed the transaction with Novartis. India, which is a listed entity. I know that they have a lot of depth with Sanjeev Kaul being there and pharma. And so that probably wasn't a deal that was as widely shopped. And even if the seller were looking to sell, they would have been a preferred buyer. So I think there's, at that end you don't get juicy deals relative to someone else. But I think you can sometimes be out there, have a sharper sense of what to buy and be quicker to execute. But the biggest value add I think comes from the work you do with the companies. Uh, once you have them in your portfolio, uh, the CEO is able to recruit the value. Everybody has a sort of value add team that they bring in to work with the promoter and um, to be a really good steward of the company. So I think the role private equity now is playing is in helping build better Indian companies and secondly in improving governance in the companies. When I talk to people in the public markets, they say, you know, this is a PE sponsored deal, I have much more confidence. Or this is a Chris Cap backed deal or a Blackstone backed deal or a Kedara, uh, backed deal, you know, that I know. And I'm just naming these three names. There are many others that these are really well run, good, high integrity, well governed companies. So I think the private equity has played a great role in providing the fuel for growth, helping the people professionalize their companies, the promoters professionalize their companies, bring in much better management and make them more ambitious and give them good ideas around how to leverage AI, new technology, keep them at the cutting edge, integrate them into the global economy and then finally also much better governance and good pathway to exit, uh, for both the sponsor and families if they want it.

Speaker B: And what was the criticism that PE companies often suck the blood out of family owned companies, take away the personal touch that the family had, uh, sometimes take jobs away. How do you react to those criticisms?

Speaker A: So I think in India it's less so. Uh, I think um, the cutting cost thing is not the big thing in India. I think in lbos globally that's been the thing. But in a country like India that's growing, you may become more efficient. But I think most, if we were to, I haven't done the analysis, but if we were to analyze 1000 pe deals, I'm sure in 900 plus of them, uh, there's been actually growth in the employee base more than even 900, honestly. So I don't think this is a cost cutting play in people, unlike in the us Unlike in the us, in Europe. Um, families, look, I'm a big believer in entrepreneurship and families owning companies and you know, things like that. So, um, but I think that the transition is a good one. Either you're alongside a family where the family wants a sponsor who comes in, owns 20%, 30%. You're really, they're still in the driver's seat. So there you're supporting the family. Yeah, uh, supporting them with professionalizing, supporting them with figuring out how to integrate their next gen. It was a big thing families think about, you know, because no longer is it just. I'm going to hand it to my eldest son, they're being much more thoughtful about how they groom their kids, how they bring them in. And I think PE is playing a good role, uh, with that as well. Um, and yes, I think when you're uh, private equity backed, you are myopic in that you do look at five year cycles. So I think it's um, and maybe you don't invest as much in R and D, but that's the issue I think for all Indian companies right now. Um, so I don't see it as much of an issue. It's a good support for families who don't want to exit completely there. The entrepreneurial dynamism is still there. If you're doing a buyout, what you're doing is making it more professional, better governance, ready to be listed on the exchange. Um, and uh, maybe it'll be less entrepreneurial but it'll be more organized.

Speaker B: Understood. Ashish, you talked about India's need to go beyond app based innovation and invest seriously in deep tech. High quality research and bringing back top talent. You argue, and so do many, including Mohanda Spy and earlier guest on the show, that India cannot become a developed country on apps alone. Now, from a PE and growth equity lens, which deep tech or R and D heavy themes in India do you believe are generally investable in the next five to 10 years?

Speaker A: So it's going to be a journey. Uh, but I do think we're at the cusp of stimulating the deep tech ecosystem. The number of specialized deep tech only funds is small in number. Maybe seven or eight that I know of that are even some size and they're not very large because it's chicken and egg. It's supply and demand at the same time.

Speaker B: Correct.

Speaker A: But I think we're at the cusp for a few reasons. One is there's more money coming. I think the government's announcement of the RDI fund is a game changer. It's what Yosma did to the Israeli deep tech ecosystem a few decades ago. I think with this $11 billion pool which is like a fund of funds, it'll stimulate deep tech funds uh across biotech, semiconductor, uh, space tech, you name it, Materials, lots of new areas where you're going to see growth. So I feel we're at that moment where uh, we are now going to see much more money coming in and that will then get entrepreneurs more focused on deep science and deep tech. I would say one weakness India has and this is what China did. You know I would say more in the post 2010 period. They accelerated it in 2015 but post 2010 and look at the results. I mean today 15 years later you have biotech companies out of China who are challenging western counterparts. In fact there are sometimes the western companies are forced to go license from the Chinese because they have cutting edge molecules. I think that same possibility exists with India over the next 10 to 15 years. So I think you have to that investable pool will grow. It may be small today but areas like biotech very promising. I think areas like semiconductor design, hardware, electronics. I think as India builds a uh, supply, I mean an assembly and components chain, I think there'll be a lot of innovation in hardware uh as well uh, in India software uh SaaS already. But now with AI uh coming in, I think building a lot of AI tools and going to the world, something India will do. Space tech is much talked about. I don't think it's as big a market as people make it out to be. Uh, but yeah there are several areas where I think there'll be a lot of innovation and so the fund sizes are going to grow quite a bit in the coming years. There'll be a lot of capital. So I think if you're coming in early it's a good moment because there'll be a lot of follow on capital with RDIF now stimulating funds.

Speaker B: And this capital is mostly domestic or international.

Speaker A: It'll be domestic with rdif but I think international folks will also come in. Um, it'll be a little bit of a punt early on because not as proven as private equity or the public markets where people have been investing for decades. Uh but I think it will come in. People see the China type opportunity in India.

Speaker B: You also emphasize Ashish that India's biggest strength is its people and enhancing human capital through education, skilling, labor mobility and women's empowerment is central to achieving uh, the Prime Minister's vision of developed India, the Vixit Bharat. Do you See mainstream PE and large family offices beginning to treat human capital intensive sectors like education or employability platforms as core investment themes rather than just CSR plays.

Speaker A: Look, education, I think part of the problem we have is our regulation and the way we've defined it. So it does get some capital, but it could get much more capital if we accepted the fact that schools and colleges can be run for profit. Um, so at Ashoka we've chosen to build a not for profit university because we are research and teaching. And I think the top 100 in India will be like that. The IITs, the Ashokas, the Shivnatha University, etc. Vast majority of universities in India or colleges or institutes are really good teaching shops with a little bit of research happening. And they already are making money. They have some other management company, infrastructure company, they run a core non profit, but then they suck the money out. Um, all the large scale and they're large scale. Some of them have 10,000, some have 50,000, some have 100,000 students in higher ed. Why not accept the fact that, that they are for profit and legitimize it? Allow them to show their EBITDA margin, allow them to raise private equity capital, allow them to list, et cetera. Same thing with schools.

Speaker B: So what is stopping it?

Speaker A: We have a Supreme Court judgment that says the Uni Krishna judgment from 93 that says it should be a not for profit activity and that we can't dividend the money out, it has to be reinvested, et cetera. I think we need to relook at this. That looks, at the end of the day, I understand that there is a social objective to education, but you know, um, the reality is what it is already what we did with the GST reform is we accepted that this is a way to bring the informal into the formal. And I think we need to do the same with education. We've got this informality with these structures and things like that. Uh, it's already happening. So why not co opt them in? You'll get taxes, you'll get more capital coming in, you'll get greater transparency, you'll get large groups who today avoid it. Uh, say if the Aditya Birla group, and I can't speak for Mr. Kumar Birla, but I know that he has an interest and he's run some schools. But if they knew that there was a way to do it in this manner where you could, maybe they'd put much more capital. HDFC for instance, started schools, but they discovered how difficult it was. And if they had found that there was a pathway to be a legitimate for profit enterprise, maybe it would have panned out differently.

Speaker B: So in a way, it's hurting the growth of education.

Speaker A: I think so. Because, look, we have to accept already 70% of students in higher ed go to private institutions, right? And there will be maybe 15, 20, 50 private institutions that will be truly not for profit. Um, like, you know, the ones that really focus on research, the ones that aspire to be in the top hundred, et cetera, et cetera. Leave those aside. Everybody else is here to make money because, you know, so why not just accept that? Um, and same thing with schools. Schools even more so. All schools, other than a few charitable schools that are run for charitable purpose are really for profit. Even the budget schools in India that charge a thousand rupees a month are making a margin. Uh, it's enough to pay the entrepreneur's salary effectively. Uh, so I think we need to be radical. I mean, even with school education, almost 50% of our kids now, the 250 million children, 25 crore children go to private school. So what are we doing? It's a bit of a charade in my mind. Uh, why not legitimize it and just say, and by the way, this happened in other countries. We have listed university players, we have listed schools, uh, et cetera. And then let's set up the regulatory infrastructure, the standards. Uh, what like Dubai has done with the Ktha khda. Sorry. Uh, we could talk about, we've got this idea of a triple SA in our new education policy, which is the state standard setting authority, which would play the similar role. So if you look at Dubai, almost all schools are private. The state is not really playing a role, but it's a very good school system and some of them charge a lot and they're making money and it's legitimate. But the standards are there, the monitoring is there, the accreditation is there. So I believe that's the direction India. If we do that, lots of capital will come in. Education's a huge sector and it's recession proof, it's tariff proof. Um, it's going to be around irregardless of AI and all kids are going to go to school.

Speaker B: Absolutely. That's a good segue for me to ask you about the Convergence foundation, which you run. You've described the work of the foundation as building a portfolio of organizations that collectively strengthen human capital as part of India's journey towards a $10 billion economy. You talked about earlier, could you walk us through how you chose these specific Focus areas and how you think about portfolio nation building.

Speaker A: Yeah. So let's start from the vision. I'm very inspired by the Prime Minister's vision of Ixit Bharat. I think, um, what drives me is I'm now just turning 57. In 2047 I'll still be 75 plus, just over 75. And so I can see that in my lifetime, hopefully, uh, that we could be in a completely different place. Um, as a country that excites me because I can be a small cog in the wheel contributing towards it. Um, so we start from there and what we say is, look, we want India to become a middle income country, a developed country, graduate from lower middle income to a developed country. We also want good jobs for all our citizens. I think the best equity, the best inclusion is good jobs for our citizens. Uh, you know, giving them handouts is a way, yes, to deliver to the poorest and we need to do that. Uh, but the best is to give everybody a good education, give everybody opportunity, give them good jobs. So creating lots of jobs, that's what excites us. Um, so, so the areas we look at are on the economic growth side are areas like deregulation, which is a big priority of the government. I'm very happy that they've chosen it because while we got rid of the license Raj, we never got rid of the inspector Raj. Uh, India is a tough place to do business. So this ease of doing business in a real sense is something we need and we need to continuously, even after this round of reforms we're doing, do enterprise surveys to listen to the voice of the enterprise, especially the SMEs who find it so hard in India to grow and see what pain points they have. And the state should be looking to deregulate, to resolve it. The state's role is to help business, not to deter business. So deregulation, freeing up the entrepreneur, as it were, uh, from the heavy weight of the state is very important. Second is industrial policy. I think India is now going, manufacturing is going to take off, uh, and you see it with the FDA's. Now we've got wonderful FDA's, uh, either signed or approved with all the major developed countries, the us, the eu, the uk, uh, Australia, Canada, et cetera, gcc. So we have a golden opportunity now to export to the large markets around the world. And if China geopolitically is, I think hopefully going to be at a different tariff rate, this is the real opportunity now to shift away from China to a country like India, ASEAN will also benefit But I think India could be a huge beneficiary going forward. So having the right industrial policy, figuring out for each of these sectors what are the binding constraints, the frictions, how do you release them through policy? I think it's very, very important. Um, urbanization is a very important theme. 60% of India's GDP is in cities. And we know incrementally, like 100% of our GDP incrementally pretty much is in cities. Rural growth is slow or small and migration means the shift is happening. So we need to invest in the infrastructure in cities. We need, uh, better governance at the city level and we need, like the prime Minister has said, to treat cities as engines of economic growth. So these 50 hubs in India that are going to grow and women, uh, obviously 40 plus percent women in the labor force, but most of them are in informal jobs, most of them are in low wage jobs. A lot of them are still in agriculture and low value add services. So getting women now to be on par with men by 2047 and can be a journey is very, very important because we're going to, as Mao said, women hold up half the sky. We have hundreds of billions of dollars of value we can create by getting women to play up to their potential.

Speaker B: But wouldn't that require, you think building townships around factories like China has done?

Speaker A: Very much so. So, uh, I think one of the things that deters women is safe housing, safe transport, and once you set up industrial housing at site, you take care of those issues. Um, so yes, so we look at these topics and of course the core is education skilling as well. So there's a human side element to it and then there's policy around stimulating. So these are things that we work on. The way our approach is we incubate nonprofits. So an example would be foundation for Economic Development. It's a foundation that works on deregulation. It also works on manufacturing, industrial policy, uh, that will help our sectors grow. Or, uh, foundation like Atiti foundation that we incubated that works only on tourism.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Uh, udeti, that works on women's economic empowerment. Uh, fast works on science and tech R and D policy. Um, so each of these about 10 organizations that work on just economic growth and then we have a portfolio of another seven, eight organizations that work on the human capital side of things, like Central Square foundation, working on foundation, Rocket Learning, works on ece, you know, et cetera. So the way I look at it is we look the main actors in India's economic development are government because they define the rules, they're the facilitator, coordinator. Uh, they can create the infrastructure layer the incentives for growth and get out of the way as well. Right. M, uh, I think government needs to turn more of a blind eye, deregulate uh, which is what China did and let businesses grow. And then really the magic happens with markets, right? Entrepreneurs, people who work for these companies, they're the ones who create value. Right. As guarantee said, India grows while governments at night. So it means that you unleash these entrepreneurs and give them the freedom, let them grow. Our role is that small third party, these uh, are the two big parties is to work on better policies, better long term policy implementation, piloting new innovative things, building evidence around it. So uh, it's really to partner with both markets and the state to be a uh, small player in helping India's growth and development.

Speaker B: So what's your model for engagement with the government? Because that's critical right? To get anything progress.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: How do you do that?

Speaker A: So I would say the government has been so open in the last decade, um, maybe even earlier, but I've been doing this for 14 years now is that it is very refreshing. I think that government um, as long as you're not looking to take credit, as long as you don't have a hidden agenda, um, government is very open to policy ideas. I mean if you look at um, whether it's the R and D policy of rdif, anrf, so many well meaning people contributed towards it, uh, people who really care about India becoming a product nation, government heard and put in place this thing, deregulation. Also uh, some of the organizations that we worked with, supported had uh, been working with state governments. The chief economic advisor took notice, has been thankfully writing about it in the economic survey. And then finally the prime minister decided that this is a major initiative to push it and we've been supporting that initiative. So at the federal level there's the opportunity to engage, there's lots of opportunity to engage at state level. And I think uh, we believe that you know 70, 80% of the effort should be at state level because states are the engines of economic growth. The government is creating the enabling conditions. But at state level is where the rubber hits the road. Most of your ease of doing business is at state level. Most of your human capital, education skilling, the power rests with the states. What you need is that pro reform mindset. We already see it with some states. The southern states generally have been pro growth and they're growing faster, they're industrializing faster, they're Getting higher value add services. The western states also Gujarat, Maharashtra have done it. Now we're finally seeing the north. Apart from the NCR engine, which is Haryana, Delhi, little bit of Up UP itself has woken up. Which I think is great because I always believe in India there are many states which are still not engines of growth the way the southern and western states are. If every CM can become like a Chandra Babu Naidu or a Davindra Fatna Vista or a Yogi Adityanath or even um, uh, the chief minister of uh, Telangana, um, I think we will have India growing at 10, 12% versus at 6, 7, 8%.

Speaker B: So do you have representation in the states? How do you engage the states?

Speaker A: Yeah, all these organizations all work at state level. Um, and uh, we work across the better states because not only can you help them, they're going to be growth engines. So anything exports related, obviously the, the coastal states are better positioned. I mean even in China the exports really happened out off the coast, right?

Speaker B: Correct.

Speaker A: Uh, so anything you would work with those states. But we also believe that to have an inclusive India we need. Actually our biggest work is in Uttar Pradesh. Uh, because it's the largest state, almost 25 crore people, 250 million people. It's still low per capita income with a huge aspiration to be a trillion dollar economy. And we see it changing. It's been the fastest to move with deregulation. It was ranked number one recently. Ease of doing business really. So we want to work a lot also with the northern states like Madhya Pradesh recently a lot of interest in tourism. We're starting to engage there. Orissa, we worked a lot Bihar. Now uh, we've been engaging post election. We've already been working education, now we're working on economic growth as well. So with a number of these states as well, we feel it's very important that they may not. Semiconductor fabs may not come to Bihar, but Bihar for sure can attract government factories, food processing, tourism in the Buddhist circuit, you know, domestic services that are higher value add, et cetera. It's so far been stuck in the agricultural economy and hasn't migrated. So and it has 130 million people. So if we want balanced growth in India, we also have to look at these states.

Speaker B: Excellent. Ashish. This is a good time to tell our listeners about the social impact objective of this podcast. Most profits from this podcast, as I mentioned to you, go to compelling social causes from across the world. And every guest on this podcast gets a thousand dollar money merchants gift card that can be redeemed for one of the carefully selected, uh, six charities. These, uh, are Dubai Cares, Red Crescent, Save the Children, Educate Girls, the Rudy A. Menon foundation, and the WWF. Ashish, you've chosen to give your gift card of $1,000 to educate girls. Thank you. Your contribution will go a long way in educating girls across India, so thank you very much. Every listener on this show can also get and redeem a free gift card of $50 on my website, moneymatches.com so please, please, please visit my website and make a difference to someone somewhere. See you after this short commercial break.

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Speaker B: Welcome back. We are talking today to Ashish Dhawan, the Indian philanthropist and former private equity investor, uh, who built risk capital into one of India's leading PE firms before dedicating himself full time to institution building through the Convergence Foundation, Central Square foundation and the Ashoka University. Ashish Ashoka University is often cited as a rare example of collective philanthropy in Indian higher education. With a group of like minded founders, including you, Pramitraj, uh, Sinha, Vineet Gupta and others coming together to build a liberal arts institution rather than another technical or professional college. When you look back at Ashoka's first decade, from its ambition to an Indian ivy in the liberal arts space, to its current reality, including moments of controversy and political pressure, what are you proudest of? And if you started the university today, what would you do differently, if anything?

Speaker A: So I think firstly when we say liberal arts university, what we really mean is um, a full university, a multidisciplinary, holistic, um, interdisciplinary kind of university. So people perceive it sometimes as humanities or social sciences. Uh, when we think of like Stanford or Harvard or Yale or uh, as liberal arts universities, that's more the fact that there is this idea of cross fertilization across disciplines. Students have choice, well rounded people coming out of these institutions. So our ambition was always to build this multivarsity which includes, uh, science, computer science, management, someday law, design, uh, you know, bioscience. We already have, you know, the whole shebang. Basically the way you go to a leading university, you have the whole stuff. I think what I'm most proud of the fact is that firstly we built such a strong brand and recognition in a short period of time and that very good students who otherwise would have gone abroad, uh, we've had students turn down London School of Economics, University, um, of Chicago, believe it or not, Duke, Amherst, McGill, Vanisham, um, I mean a host of Western universities and decide to stay in India because an Ashoka exists.

Speaker B: Amazing.

Speaker A: A lot of parents say, you know, now we have an option in India. I think this is something we feel really good about, that our uh, bright students have that option in India. Obviously the IITs and all are very good, but when they want this broader education, typically you had to go abroad, now you can get in India. I'm also proud of the fact that from a research standpoint, while we're small, I think we're starting to do some really cutting edge stuff in AI, in biosciences, in a number of different areas. And finally we are private, we are not government. So we have to raise resources, we have to be prudent. So the fact that we've given away 725 crore in financial aid over the last 1112 years, the fact that to build the university, the capex and fund the operating losses, we have 230plus founders who contributed and we've raised 4,500 crore over this period of time, which is the largest collective philanthropy as an endowment fund, not endowment because really we're a university in the making. So the money is really for ongoing capital. So um, yeah, I think that's, we've made a dent, let's put it this way, and become noticed. I know there've been some uh, issues as well and bumps on the road. But look, I think by and large we're here for nation building. We want to contribute, we want our best students to stay back in India. We want great research to be done out of India. Uh, we want universities rooted in the Indian context. We have a fantastic civilization. So whether it's uh, our uh, languages like we have a translation center that works with Indian languages, our history, uh, uh, we have foundation courses in history and Indian civilization or whether it's understanding the environment from India's perspective or geopolitics from India's perspective, I think for all those reasons, as India rises, uh, I think institutions like ours can play some role in not only producing leaders, but producing research impact and an innovation ecosystem that benefits India.

Speaker B: Great work on that, uh, Ashish. But some of the controversy we've had has also raised concerns generally about academic freedom and the autonomy of private universities in India. In hindsight, what have you learned personally about balancing institutional survival with the commitment to liberal values and free inquiry?

Speaker A: So I think, uh, you're building an institution in a local context. Every local context has certain rules of the game. And um, I think India has been pretty good about general academic freedom. I mean you see that people publish papers, nobody's monitoring them, uh, even op EDS in newspapers, people write kind of what they want, sometimes even criticizing existing policy, all of that. There are certain red lines as they are in any country. And I think we have to respect those uh, red lines. Um, and you know, at the end of the day, the state in any country is all powerful. Uh, so you have to play, I mean if we are, we are regulated by whether it's UGC approves or the state is the main, you know, under the Haryana Private sector State Universities Act. And so we have to be compliant and we have to respect uh, the rules of the jurisdiction that we operate in. I mean we've seen in the States, even people used to say the US was the paradigm. I mean even in the US there've always been some guardrails. I think now it's become even more with, uh, Trump coming in and I think with universities, I think at the end of the day their main role is research and teaching. Uh, and they shouldn't necessarily veer off into becoming, uh, you know, trying to become political actors. Their goal is research, teaching, innovation, put your head down and do that. Well, and I think, uh, that's really. And of course you want enlightened students, you want students who are thinking, you want students who uh, are well read and can question, uh, but, but in a constructive way is the way I think about it.

Speaker B: And do you feel proud that you have almost spawned the next generation of education philanthropists? I mean I interviewed recently the vice chancellor of 9th anniversary in Pune, Ranjan, uh, Banerjee, uh, who's a junior of mine from college. Uh, and this whole movement to build high quality yet resilient universities in India is a new thing that's happening. So Ashoka was the first in that, right?

Speaker A: Yeah, I'm very proud of the fact that we are a pioneer in that regard, uh, in two ways. One is a pioneer in terms of getting more private universities that are research focused, high quality. I mean all these new ones I find very promising because they have high aspirations, they're doing it right. They're not just commercial shops. Um, so yes, I think, and the fact that giving people confidence that you will get the resources, if good people are involved, to make it happen. So there's a model there for others to copy, but at the same time there's a model for all of higher ed, which is, I think Ashoka was a pioneer in this interdisciplinary education, student choice, Socratic, more engaged, uh, learning, deeper inquiry, critical thinking, what is really a 21st century education. You know, our universities had been trapped in terms of putting students in a straitjacket, very narrow subject specialization, not having a broader view of the world, etc. So I think this idea of a well rounded education which has been there in our history, you know, that's what Vikramsila, Takshila, Nalanda were, uh, the British put us in a straitjacket. I think now all of Indian higher ed, that's what the NEP talks about, needs to move towards this more well rounded education. And I think Ashoka has shown a path for Getting that done. So I think our biggest contribution long term will not just be our alarms or the research. I think the IIT's biggest contribution, for instance, is not just its alarms. It's the fact they made engineering prestigious m that they created this, you know, huge workforce that could power India's IT revolution, the now India's innovation revolution. These are huge spillover benefits. I think the, uh, Ashoka could do the same with the idea of a well rounded education.

Speaker B: So Ashish, you worked with universities like Ashoka and many others. You also worked with many schools through your Central Square Foundation. In your mind, when you say well rounded education, what is more important, the school part or the university part? If you prioritize, where is it more important to fix education?

Speaker A: Look, both are important. Um, I think it's more important to fix it early. I mean, if you have a leaky pipe, you always go upstream to fix it. So in that sense, I think number one priority for the country is we have to fix foundational literacy and numeracy. Because I think if, just from an equity standpoint, if 50 plus percent or 50% of our children can't read and do basic numeracy now it's heartening that the recent National Achievement shows, this survey shows that 60 plus percent are uh, achieving basic literacy and numeracy. But still we have tens of millions of children in every cohort who are left behind, um, and then they're left behind permanently. They're locked out of opportunity. They can't be productive citizens. So I think this is, uh, the most important thing for India. What China, Vietnam did very well is they built a very strong foundation. We haven't done that. We have to do that. I think Nipun Bharat, which is the government's mission, is very good. Our, uh, minister has been talking now about the improvement we're already seeing and we're going to hopefully have a 2.0 of Nipun Bharat. So I think this is super, super critical. Now, does it mean you only do this and you don't have higher ed reform and prioritize higher ed? I don't think it's an either or, because in a large country like India, we have to improve all these areas, you know, foundational literacy. We need to reform our boards so that we have better education in, uh, secondary school and middle school at the same time. Our colleges, you know, While we have 44 million students in higher education in India, uh, we know many of them get a third rate education. So whilst massification is starting to happen, quality has to improve.

Speaker B: So that's a good segue for me to shift gear into your own personal journey, your education, your career and your leadership principles. You grew up in Kolkata, uh, Ashish. You studied in Xavier's College and St. James School, went to Yale and studied mathematics and economics. Then you went to Harvard Business School before you started out in Wall Street. If you reflect on that early arc, from a Kolkata schoolboy to an Ivy League trained Wall street professional, what were the formative experiences or mentors that most shaped your worldview in Calcutta and beyond?

Speaker A: So I think family standpoint, obviously my parents, um, my mother, I think drove in me a, uh, strong commitment to academic excellence. A, uh, competitive spirit, uh, mental tuning that look, everything is in the mind. And the way you see the world, uh, particularly as an optimist and as a doer, is what makes you successful. Uh, my dad, for being like the person who is more chilled. And, uh, could help you see a broader perspective of life and humanity. And, um, what mattered, I think, most. So that wisdom, I think overlaid on top of drive. Um, and, you know, as my parents always said, uh, you know, the tree laden with fruit hangs low. So reinforcing humility always is. So I think values as well from parents.

Speaker B: So you got the best of both.

Speaker A: I was very lucky. My grandfather, also maternal grandfather, I give a lot of credit to. Because he was a very inspiring person. He had a curiosity of a young child. Even when he was 96 and 97. You know, he was a sponge. He was, um. Could cite a poem on Indian history he'd written. Which was 100 stanzas when he was 97, verbatim. He'd written it when he was in ninth grade, 15 years old. So just that quest for knowledge and that curiosity and you know, that came from him. Uh, and then of course, my. In school, I think there were teachers who were really, uh. Shaped me in Xavier's. Uh, Mr. Gass, Mr. Vienna were brilliant teachers. Father, uh, Boucher. And then of course, um, when I moved to St. James, um, John Mason was our principal, who was outstanding. What a leader. Um, and then I went to college. And of course, again, inspired by a number of teachers. And then I had a boss, George McCown, uh, who, uh. Before I went to business school, who was an alum of Harvard Business School, 35 years older than me, was in love with India, man of the mountains. So I think he read a lot of Buddhist, Hindu philosophy, even though he was American. And I just learned about this. How this business leader who could balance multiple interests on the one hand, he had been a CEO of a Fortune 500 company, then became a private equity finance guy. At the same time had so many other interests in the world at large, in philosophy, in history, in culture. And I said, you know, this is a real Renaissance man in my mind. So I think that role model sort of stuck with me.

Speaker B: Um, and in your mind, Ashish, today when you look back and you advise youngsters, what constitutes a meaningful career for you?

Speaker A: For me it's uh, a career with purpose. And look, I think you can find purpose in lots of things. You can be an entrepreneur and you're trying something new, uh, whether it's a new way to deliver stuff to households in 10 minutes or 15 minutes, that's innovation. Or deep tech, that's innovation. Uh, you could be working in a company, helping build that company and that is you're contributing towards India's development, scaling that company. So I think we all are in some way small specs that are contributing towards India's growth and development. So I think for young people to have that positive mindset, to work hard, uh, to recognize that the opportunity they have today is much better than the opportunity you or I had growing up 30, 40 years ago. I think today's opportunity, the world is their oyster. Um, India is in a different place. We have capital, we have access to technology, we have global partnership, we have everything on our doorstep. So I think that just you have to grab it, have that entrepreneurial spirit with whatever you do that can do spirit and even if you fail, you're going to get another chance which wasn't there 30 years ago. Uh, so I think I would tell young people that work hard, be innovative and entrepreneurial and B, have a great degree of perseverance. It doesn't matter if some things don't work out.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Now you founded co founder of Chris capital at age 29, uh, way back in 1999 when India focus B was still an experiment. Uh, it's an extraordinary entrepreneurial story in itself. When you look back at those first 10, 15 years through the dot com bust, the 2008 crisis and the various India specific cycles, what were some of the non obvious decisions or contrarian bets that defined Risk capital's culture and its edge?

Speaker A: So I think a few things. One is early on we grew very rapidly and then we rationalized and I think that was good. We had a lot of churn in terms of senior people in the first three, four years. Uh, and it was good because it allowed us to then have a partnership that was committed Long term focused and we could grow some of the younger talent and give them more opportunity. Um, and that happened through that existential period of the dot com bust, et cetera. So those who believed in the long term stayed and they are the ones who benefited and rose through and they were the ones willing to work hard, willing to be committed to the firm, et cetera. Um, I think the other defining point is we were lucky that we were there early. So sometimes just showing up is important. You know, we started at a difficult point in 99 when the economy was still going through a tough phase. Asian financial crisis, markets were down. All of that dot com bust then happened, you know, but then every one of the. It's almost better to start then because then when you learned you've got bruises but you're ready, you've been to the gym, you've been working out and now you're ready to run the race, you know. So come 2002 when India really took off, we could see that certain sectors were going to do so well. Um, so I think what we did well was that macro, top down, took up bets on some sectors, whether it's in financial services, in um, the NBFC space, in uh, technology, in a variety of different sectors and really bet on the right entrepreneurs. It was so those were the things that really then propelled us to the next. And we got a very good base of investors of LPs. I always believed quality over quantity. So in those days it was all outside investors. But the fact that by our second fund, Harvard and Stanford were two largest investors was uh, a mark. You know, the best firms in the world had those two or sought those two as investors. So it was all about quality, quality people, A great culture where people go into the people who run. Chris Capital today joined right at the beginning. Kunal Shroff, who uh, runs it, joined me three months, uh, right at the beginning as we were getting going. Sanjay Kukreja, who's the cio, joined within the first year, graduating from imm, um, M Bangalore. Ashley Menezes, who's the cfo, joined within that first year, left KPMG to join. Sanjeev Kaul, who I knew when he was at Ranbaxi, joined soon after uh, and has been there 20 some years. So I think the fact that people are stuck together is because it's a great uh, culture. So I'm very proud of those things.

Speaker B: Amazing. But at the height of your PE career Ashish, you choose to step away, uh, and move into philanthropy and institution building full time. Uh, what was the inner trigger for that pivot? Was it a specific event? Was it a gradual realization about impact and legacy, or simply a different kind of risk taking for you?

Speaker A: No, I think it was deliberate. Um, I'd been thinking about it for a while. As I told you, I was attracted to the idea of multiple interests, multiple careers. So that was. And, you know, sometimes when Akira, an idea gets in your head, it's hard to dislodge it. So I had this idea in my head that when I'm 45, if I've done well, uh, in the commercial world, I'll leave it. And I was lucky. In my 30s, I did beyond my wildest imagination. At least financially even. The firm was successful. I'm blessed that I was in India and gave me this opportunity. Um, so I started then thinking more actively. When I was 41, I made the decision that I would transition. I told my colleagues and then we told our Investor. Almost a two year transition. One and a half, two year. And when I was 43, I finally made the switch. So it was not. I love investing. Honestly, I could have stayed, but. So I was not running away. I was not burnt out. Uh, I just wanted to reinvent myself personally and have a second career. I thought it'd be fun, learn new things, unlearn a lot, new people I meet. It'll give me new energy and at the same time, something which I felt was a career purpose, something which I enjoy intellectually. I like the idea of contributing towards India's economic growth. I've always been a student of macroeconomics economic development. I love the idea of education. I have an unfulfilled dream of being a teacher. So all of these talk to me on the inside and I, uh, have a chance to express it. And they're all meaningful areas for India's growth and development going forward.

Speaker B: And how do you balance the psychological shift from being judged on IRR and MOIC into being judged on outcomes that may take decades to play out? True.

Speaker A: Uh, this space is very complex. I mean, you know, in school education, where we started Central Square Foundation 14 years ago, finally we're seeing some improvement in foundational literacy and numeracy at scale. Um, but the first 10 years that I was working on this, um, honestly, the needle hadn't turned M. And we ourselves made so many mistakes. We hadn't figured out things, we didn't know how to work with state governments, we didn't understand the holistic solution that would work, et cetera. So it is a long, complex journey. I Think unlike the corporate world where you can see quarter to quarter. I think yes, we all have metrics here. It's not like we don't. But one has to be more patient and one has to understand that there are multiple factors here. There's no silver bullet in driving. Often corporate people, when they judge from the outside, I think look at this world through a different lens and don't understand that it's actually more complex than the world they live in.

Speaker B: And across your foundations, Ashish, you have to recruit and retain high caliber talent, uh, often competing with global opportunities. Right. Uh, what are some of your core leadership principles when it comes to attracting mission aligned talent? Designing uh, incentives and giving people enough autonomy while maintaining a coherent uh, institutional culture.

Speaker A: Yeah. So firstly, I think with anything, our uh job is to define a bold vision for the area that we're working in, like tourism. Let me give you an example. India gets just a tad above 1% of global tourists, foreign tourists. Right. Numbers. It's pitiful. Given the heritage, the culture, religion, spirituality, wellness, uh, physical attractions of mountains, beaches, wildlife. Why can't it be 5% or 10% now that's a North Star of where it could be 25 years from now. Yeah, it'll take forever to get there. But I think we are passionate about that. Right. We believe it in our bones and we define that as the North Star metric. Then you start looking at, okay, what are the three, four interventions that will make a difference? We do that homework and then when we attract a CEO, that person knows that they have to stick with this problem for a long period of time. They have to believe in this possibility. I mean you on one hand you can say India is dirty and India is got this image of not being safe and all that. I mean we know that there are problems, but God, we know that the product we have is fantastic. And um, so I think finding people who believe in the mission is very important. Finding people who don't look at it as a job but look at it as something they're going to work on. Some people who are entrepreneurial and have a 10, 15 year horizon, not a 3 to 5 year horizon. People, we want to compensate people in a manner where they can live well but they're not going to make their excess returns in this job. So a lot of corporate people switch. They often are making a third or a quarter of what they made, but they're switching at a point in life where it's comfortable for them. For younger people, I think many young people in India who are really Smart are willing to make the switch because they want to live a life of purpose. So our core is, you know, we want to define the areas well, we want to find the theory of change that will work the outcomes and track year to year. But you also want to build strong institutions. And you build strong institutions firstly with great leadership, with very strong talent, with a good culture in there, uh, and of course sustainability, financial sustainability. So we pay attention to the two I's, which is the impact and the institution building. And our uh, goal is we want to build 30 institutions for India.

Speaker B: 30?

Speaker A: 30. So Atiti foundation focused on tourism is one organization. Gati foundation focused on overseas migration is one Udaiti Women's Economic Empowerment is one Central Square foundation, obviously the big one focused on um, early Education Foundation. So I think the 30 institutions that really will make a difference to India and they won't be ours. We'll help incubate it, get it started. Entrepreneurs, CEOs, we'll have other donors, professional boards, they really belong to the country. We just played a role in helping them get up and running.

Speaker B: Amazing legacy if you have 30 institutions. Eventually. Ashish, uh, in a recent article you argued that India's new generation of entrepreneurs and wealth creators can play a transformative role, uh, in domestic philanthropy if they apply the same rigor and ambition they use to build their companies. If you were writing a concise philanthropy playbook today, uh, for a first generation Indian billionaire, what would be some of the design choices you would urge them to get right from the beginning?

Speaker A: So firstly, we started an organization actually called Accelerate India Philanthropy. Mhm. For precisely this reason. Because we feel that there's been a lot of wealth creation in India the last 20 years. There are a number of um, people who've made hundreds of millions of dollars or billions, um, and we feel that one is philanthropy needs to be sold. You need to go and talk to them and inspire them. Use the other examples. The good news is we have fantastic role models. Azim Premji, uh, Nandan and Rohini Nilakkani, all the Infosys founders. If I look at them, Shiv Nadar, amazing role models who have, who are giving a large portion and huge amounts of wealth.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: So people can be inspired by them. They don't have to be inspired by Rockefeller and Carnegie. We have our local role models. I think the first generation wealth creators in India have a completely different mindset. They've often been to very good educational institutions, IITs, IMs, abroad, wherever they want their children to be well educated, but they don't want to hand everything to their children. Uh, and they really want to make a difference to the country. So uh, uh, what I say to them and where we are trying to help them is firstly discover your passion. Find the one area or two areas that you really care about whether it's healthcare, education, economic growth, livelihoods, climate, art, culture, could be even a niche, could be preserving monument across India. Find that passion and that's one. So focus two is get started. You know, get going. At least even it's always you'll say I'm busy, oh I'm going to wait 20 more years because I can generate at a uh, 15, 20% IRR. My money will be more. I think you have to get started, you have to taste it, you have to experience it, right? And then you'll get hooked because I think you'll start feeling you're making an impact and it'll give you a certain oxygen that'll even help you with your business life is my belief. Right, so that's second focus, get started. Third is decide your model. Either you're going to just make grants and in which case you don't need a large organization. If you're going to do it yourself, then hire a good CEO and build a small organization. So start with that programmatic work. And fourth is I would say think strategically and systemically. You know these, all the people who've made all this money are really smart, they're really good at getting things done and they're really ambitious. So why can't they think of as opposed to saying I'm going to build 10 schools around my factories, why can't they think to say I'm going to improve education in the whole state of Madhya Pradesh because my factory is in Madhya Pradesh. Now to do that you have to think about policy. You have to think the state has spending so much money, how am I going to improve this? Through whether it's teaching, learning material capacity, building tech tools, AI. But think of scale eventually, um, evidence backed scale. So that's my plea to people is pick a focus, get started, be really ambitious and be systemic and strategic and most importantly, enjoy the ride.

Speaker B: Excellent. Now Rashid, before I let you go, we'll do a quick rapid fire short answers. First thing that comes to your mind, what's most stressful for you? Presenting a deal to a tough investment committee at Goldman Sachs, which you've done many times in your 20s or defending an education reform idea in a room full of state secretaries?

Speaker A: Education reform any day. I think everybody has a view on Education, um, and we need big reforms in India. So like I told you earlier, if we had to go with a model of for profit private education, firstly it's controversial. Many people will pillory me for the idea. So you're sticking your neck out. I'm not doing that when I'm pitching a deal. And two is it's a massive shift from the way we've operated uh, earlier, uh, so it's a very hard sell.

Speaker B: Is there a single statistic about Indian human capital that you find yourself quoting most often at dinner tables or at conferences?

Speaker A: The one that I like is that we have 23 million births a year. China is below 8 now. So we are like 3x China M in terms of people being born, who are people who are going to come into the workforce 20 years from now. So investing in that human capital, unlocking its potential, um, can make us bigger than anybody else because we are now 3x the next largest. Nigeria and China by the way are both neck to neck as second largest in terms of births.

Speaker B: Is there one Chris Capital deal you would love to relive without naming names either because it was a nail biter or because it taught you more in failure than any successful exit ever could.

Speaker A: So the one I would say is Suzlon M. I love the entrepreneur Tulsi Tanti who's unfortunately no more. Um, extremely ambitious, grassroots, authentic Sanathasoil got into a pioneer with wind turbines in India. Showed that you could build cutting edge wind turbines out of India when the Europeans dominated the space. Actually went out and bought the European company Repower was global actually at that time with teams in Australia to America. So which most Indian entrepreneurs like to be behind protected walls in India and build their business. He went global.

Speaker B: Mhm. You grew up in Kolkata. What's one Kolkata habit of work you still carry with you food?

Speaker A: I think. Uh, I'm not a foodie but I would say the old things I had in Calcutta, you know I love seafood because of shorshe mach and dap chingdi and you know the things in Calcutta.

Speaker B: Amazing.

Speaker A: Uh, and uh, I love rolls because Nizam's rolls were, was like I used to crave for that um, biryani in Calcutta was unique and amazing. So just the food was amazing and cultured people. So I think this a little bit of appreciation of art and culture. I wouldn't say I'm as good as my wife, she is much more. But I think having a little bit more well rounded self Calcutta taught me

Speaker B: if you weren't an investor or A philanthropist. What's an alternate career would have followed, you think?

Speaker A: I probably would have liked working in something related to economics. So probably, uh, think tank, maybe in government, in some economic role, et cetera. Uh, I like economic development. So, uh, investing in a way you're contributing through building companies. The role I play today, I'm doing it from the outside. Maybe some other way at getting at it. And then facetiously I say, you know, I'm a pretty, you know, easygoing guy. I mean, I wouldn't mind being a travel guide. I think I'm fun. I have a sense of history. I know my geography really well. I love cocktails. So. And uh, so I think I would be. I wouldn't make much money doing it, but I'd be an excellent travel guide.

Speaker B: And finally, Ashish, when you think of India at 100 in 2047, what is the one specific change you hope every ordinary citizen of India will be able to take for granted, which is not true today.

Speaker A: A good job which brings you dignity. I know in the world of AI we're talking about us, uh, sitting, chilling and drinking beers all day long. Uh, but I think that we need, um, to create jobs in the country and at least well being for all our citizens. Um, we've gotten rid of poverty, which is a low bar in India. Now, um, you know, crossing a very low threshold. We now need to get to a place where we unlocked people's potential. There's certain minimum economic well being. Uh, but I think India can be different and we can show the world that we can live with the world as a family. We can also preserve our own family structure at home. Home. And that we have certain values. Right. Which I think will be important. Ancient wisdom will trump AI because ultimately you'll have to be wise in using this technology and you'll have to live a life of purpose. You'll have to reflect as, as an individual to see what your purpose is. Uh, and I think so. India has that. So I Hope that in 2047 when the world is infused with technology and AI, we will be grounded because of ancient intelligence.

Speaker B: Very well said, Ashish. Thank you very much. It's been a rich and inspiring conversation. Any last comments for the listeners?

Speaker A: I just like to say that, look, I very bullish on India. Uh, I think that the best is yet to come. I, uh, know that we have grown at like 6.5% for 35 years consistently. We're reliable. But it's going to be even better. I think we will now see China type growth uh, going forward. And, um, young people in India are unbelievable. And, um, the world sees India's potential. We've seen it with the recent AI summit that just happened. So I'm extremely bullish on India and I want to see it happen in my lifetime.

Speaker B: Excellent. Fab.

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Speaker B: To our audience. Thank you for tuning into Money Magnus. If you enjoyed this episode, do follow the show and share it with your colleagues and friends and leave us a review, rating or review. And if you want to join my social giving movement, please Visit my website, moneymudget.com and redeem your free gift card for a charity of your choice. Until the next episode, this is Shuha Sarkar signing off from New Delhi. Stay well, stay curious and do good. It.