The Direct Path to Sales Director

Speaker A: This podcast app was made by abes.

Speaker B: This is Media Sales Mastery, the podcast

Speaker A: for media sales professionals. In each episode, we bring you information,

Speaker B: insights and ideas from some of the industry's top thought leaders. Connect with us to help pick the topic and guide the show.

Speaker A: This is Media Sales Mastery, the podcast for media source sales professionals and aspiring media sales directors. Uh, my name is Jamie Wood, I'm your host and today we are talking about that. We are talking about the direct path to sales director. And when I say sales director, I of course mean commercial director, head of sales, vice president of sales. There's a million words for it. The sales director is the senior sales leadership role in the market. It's the person who doesn't just carry the number, but leads the managers, runs the entire commercial function of a media business. And, and this is a very highly coveted role in media. It's one that a lot of frontline sellers ultimately aspire to. But there is often a very significant gap between what people a imagine the job is versus what the job actually is once you're in it. But also there's a pretty big gap in terms of the understanding of what is required to do the role effectively. So today is all about closing that gap for you. I want to give you an honest, unfiltered view of what the role actually is, what it actually actually takes to get there, what those blind spots are that hold good people back from ever actually jumping into the job. And importantly, it's not all that great once you're up there. What are some of those personal trade offs? What's some of the baggage, the politics, the issues, be it psychological, emotional, personal, that people actually have to kind of make as part of doing the role or doing the role well. So this is kind of selling you the reality of the role, not just giving you the highlight reel. And that was my brief. And therefore there's no one better to do that than this wonderful returning guest. She is a senior commercial leader in her own right in the media and advertising space. She has lived through the climb. She leads a very complex commercial function in a very prestigious media company here in Australia. And she's just one who is unapologetically authentic, as she puts it. She's not one for sugarcoating. So it's my absolute pleasure, uh, to have this chat with Stephanie Antonis. One we were having a coffee in Sydney last month and we were just kind of throwing around some different thoughts and ideas and, and this is a topic we're both particularly passionate about for me personally, and I'LL just share a brief story before I jump in. You know, I was in my first sales director role very early. I was very lucky. I was probably over promoted if I'm honest. And uh, I think I was 27, I moved to Adelaide. I was the state sales director for a radio group down there. Incredibly difficult 18 month period of my career and life, you know, and if I didn't have good people around me and some very strong support around me, I don't think I would have lasted in the role, much less performed in the role. What was really apparent to me was the minute I stepped into that job, I actually realized there's this whole world of commercial complexity. There's this whole other skill set that you need to depend upon and lean on. And importantly, the stuff that kind of up to that point had attributed to my success and the playbook for success didn't really track over to this new world. So I don't really talk a lot about my experience here, but there's a loneliness and there is a frustration and there is a, you know, a personal cost of being in these roles that often doesn't get spoken about in a candid way. And that's usually because sales directors are very good with, with the poker face. They're very good at shielding their team from the pressure. They're very good at keeping an honest, calm demeanor, you know, and they're very good at having a consistency of, of tone, demeanor, manner and performance that can often make people think that the role is potentially easier than it is, or doesn't really kind of give you that true insight into the challenges that are obviously ever present in a role like that. So that is it from me. But I will do the final plug, which is don't like, don't follow, don't subscribe, don't send me a five star review, don't do any of that. Just. If you know someone in your life who you think would benefit from listening to this podcast the same way you hopefully do, all I ask is that you share it with them. Send it to somebody via a text message. That's very easy to do. Put it into your group teams or Slack channel at work, bring it up in your team sales meeting. My whole goal is just to get this podcast listened to by people it can help. And the best way to do that is to have people who already get help share it with other people. So I would super, uh, appreciate if you could do that as my final request before we jump into this amazing episode with Stephanie, which I just finished recording Direct path to sales director.

Speaker B: The first five.

Speaker A: Stephanie, welcome back.

Speaker B: Hi, Jamie. It's fabulous to be back. Thank you so much for the invitation.

Speaker A: My, uh, pleasure. It was great to catch up with you in Sydney recently for a coffee and a chat and sort of talking about doing another one. So for anyone who's obviously missed your first appearance, give us a short version, like give us your background in media and advertising. Talk to us a bit about the role that you're in now.

Speaker B: Perfect. So for listeners that are just tuning in, Jamie and I have actually previously filmed a podcast together around premium prestige media. We did that in 2025 and that was very successful. Um, but today we actually have something that we believe is infinitely more exciting for you. Will actually be taking you backstage to lift the lid on what it is really like to lead teams and people and give you a realistic idea of what it takes to get to the top. So, just to reintroduce myself, my name is Stephanie Antonis. I'm group head of Commercial Media and Advertising at Forbes Australia. I've worked across the publishing landscape for 16 years across both trade and consumer titles, and it's certainly been quite a journey. Media sales mastery.

Speaker A: When I say sales director to you, what do we actually mean? You know, it's that senior leader in the market. It's technically the person who probably oversees revenue, but really oversees the whole commercial function. But I'd love to hear in your words, how would you actually describe what that role actually owns and is truly accountable for?

Speaker B: Yeah, look, I mean, I think it's a great question. You know, the head of commercial definitely carries an extraordinary responsibility within any organization. I think. Let's start there. You know, you are essentially the beating heart of revenue and cash flow across the entire scope of that business. And if you think of the organization as a body, you're responsible for keeping the lifeblood of that entire ecosystem circulating. So the bottom line is, is that when revenue and cash flow slows or stops, every other business unit, senior stakeholder and person around you feels it, and they actually feel it very quickly is. So the role is actually crucial to the survivability of the company more broadly. Beyond this, you know, you're wearing many hats. You know, you're leading a team, you're setting strategy, you're creating products and working on sellable ideas. You're fighting fires, you're dealing with escalations. You know, you've got your hands in recruitment and hr. You're on the tools, you know, and you're also negotiating competing agendas on A daily basis. But I think most importantly, you're doing all of this with a smile on your face and with the sophistication that the world expects of someone occupying a role at this level.

Speaker A: Yeah. And the vast majority of the audience listening to this podcast, I would imagine, are, uh, people who are very, uh, much in that kind of formative part of their career. So a lot of them are frontline sellers, maybe they're sales coordinators, even sales managers, but many of whom obviously aspire to potentially do the role of sales director. But I wanted to start kind of with like this perception versus reality disconnect of the role. I know I found, I found it myself moving into my first SD role. From your perspective, when a frontline seller, uh, pitches the sales director job, what do they typically imagine it is? And you know, how is it actually different day to day? Like, what did you find when you stepped into the chair was the biggest gap in terms of perception versus the actual reality day to day?

Speaker B: So I think the perception, Jamie, is that you've made it right. So the perception is that you're on Sydney Harbour, you know, sipping Bollinger, you know, on a beautiful, bright sunny day, or you're at level six, you know, rubbing shoulders with CEOs, or at Aria, having a three and a half hour lunch on a random Wednesday and then maybe checking in with headquarters with a little text here and there just to make sure that everything's fine. I think that's certainly the perception. And, you know, are there days like that? Does it look like that occasionally? Maybe three days a year at best, Jamie, but in reality, what you're really doing is you're shouldering the responsibility for a revenue number and all of the pressure and expectation from your internal stakeholders and your senior, you know, management team, your leadership team, to achieve that number. So you are 100% accountable month on month, year on year, and there's actually nowhere to hide. So this is a performance driven leadership role and it is actually one of the only positions within corporate Australia where yesterday's success buys you very little tomorrow. Okay? You have to earn your credibility over and over again, quarter after quarter, year after year, and it can be exhausting. You know, the role is not for the weak, let me tell you that for free.

Speaker A: You know, you raise a good point around that ultimate accountability and ownership of the number. And what I would love to know is what kind of ladders up to that, Steph, like, what are some of the other things that are entailed in the role once you're in it, be it the commercial strategy, leading the other managers, the operational side, the internal side, the people side. What's some of the stuff that people don't see until they're in the chair?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think the hidden job of a commercial director, from my perspective, is to absorb complexity. And, you know, what do I mean by that? So, you know, you're mediating between editorial and commercial. You are consistently balancing the needs of the business with the requirements of your client. Okay. You are pivoting projects and, you know, masterpieces internally to meet with market dynamics and market demand. Essentially, you're making judgment calls with incomplete information. You are coaching your team through very difficult moments in their professional and personal lives. You know, you're making hiring decisions and firing decisions. You're having uncomfortable conversations. And, you know, not to put too fine a point on it, you know, you've solved 17 problems before 9am Right. But then there's also the things that nobody ever really puts in the job description, so things like having to be the person that is expected to remain optimistic, you know, when the market isn't, you know, making decisions that aren't going to pay off for another 12 months, shielding your team from the burden of executive accountability. And I think a really big one for me is regulating your emotions in a climate of extreme commercial unpredictability. And, you know, you have to sort of walk into every room, every pitch, every presentation with the gravitas expected of a senior leader and with zero opportunity to fumble the bag. So in this role, what I would really say is that people are looking to you for confidence before they even decide whether or not they have any themselves. So what I'm really saying is the role is about riding the inevitable waves that come with commercial uncertainty and letting everyone else kind of not feel the weight of that. So, you know, it is actually a big burden to carry.

Speaker A: It is. And there's a. There's a certain level of complexity of running a sales team versus other functions that I think can be very difficult to actually articulate. To that point, though, it does feel like the pathway to sales director, uh, inevitably is someone who is a brilliant seller, someone who's actually very good in the role they're in, um, particularly in media. But how much of that actually carries over? So, you know, you get into the sales director chair, you've got a history and a track record of being a very effective commercial operator in that selling, you know, that direct selling kind of skill set. But what new capabilities suddenly start to matter much more once you're leading the whole function.

Speaker B: Look, selling and leading are two very different skill sets. To be honest, um, being a brilliant salesperson, Janie, is very much about your own performance, whereas being a brilliant commercial leader is about providing opportunities for everybody else to perform. And when you are a type A personality and you're a bit of a control freak, right, um, you're a peak performer yourself, that can actually be a very difficult transition to make. For me, the biggest adjustment, without question, was, you know, realizing that success, wholly and solely, could not be attributed to my own name anymore. Okay, so. And that is harder than it sounds. It's harder than it looks because there's always going to be a part of me that wants to jump in, do the deal, close the deal, get the IO out, you know, get it signed. Da, da, da. All the things, you know, I'm a bulldog at the end of the day, like it is in my DNA. But as a leader, though, you know, the biggest win is often in sitting back and watching a team member of yours take the baton, you know, and run with it, cross the finish line and get the goal and do it beautifully, knowing that you've sat beside that person, gently guiding them to what is, you know, a brilliant outcome. I think what I've learned as a commercial leader is that it's no longer about proving that you are the most effective person in the room. It's about building a team around you that show you that you don't need to be. I think something else worth mentioning just while we're here is that the moment you transition from an individual contributor, uh, to leading a division, all eyes are on you. Like leadership is a fishbowl. And I do think that people forget that rather conveniently. Okay? So your team is deciding every day what is acceptable by watching what you do. So essentially, your behavior becomes permission for everybody else's. And you can't ask your team to exercise standards that you don't yourself have. Okay, So I think, you know, we'll probably start there, I think, finally, you know, and interestingly, as a salesperson, I never really considered what my contribution to culture really was. And frankly, I didn't really care, you know, Whereas as a leader, I understand that my behavior has a ripple effect and my team are, uh, taking cues from me on a daily basis. So, you know, there is a burden that comes with visibility, and I think it's really important to understand that.

Speaker A: That's a really good segue into the next question I had for you, because the thing I think is really interesting with sales is there's a bit of science to it, There's a bit of psychology to it, There's a bit of magic to it. But sales can be very black and white in many cases. You know, performance can be objectively measured in a very specific way. Going back to what you mentioned before about, you know, culture and the temperature of the team and standards and behavior, I know you've spoken a lot. I know you and I have spoken a lot about, you know, embodying unapologetic authenticity in the workplace, but also, you know, the difficulty that comes from managing different personality types and strong personality types. So I guess across your career, like, I'd love to know, have you. What kind of behaviors have you seen set by other leaders that you think is genuinely extraordinary? Like, what did that actually look like to you before you then moved into the role? And how did you kind of shape your own ethos around that?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think this is a really important one, particularly when you're dealing with salespeople. And we'll go into it. But look, I mean, just to answer your first question, Jamie, I'm entirely unapologetic in both my professional and my personal spheres. And quite frankly, that is the best thing about me. Okay? One of the defining characteristics of brilliant sales people is that they are trailblazers. Okay? They are divas. And, you know, let's just call it what it is, you know? And in my experience, trying to clip their wings in the name of conformity is really more about appeasing your own discomfort with being challenged than what it actually has to do with anything to do with, you know, the needs and the greater good of the business. So, I mean, if you've hired exceptional people, you need to sit back and you need to let them be exceptional. And you also need to understand they're not going to think the same way that you do. They're not going to view the world through the same lens that you do, and they're not going to behave in exactly the same way that you want them to potentially behave. Right? So, um, the secret sauce is actually not that your people fit neatly into a box, it's actually that they don't. And the most tenured leaders and the best leaders that I've ever worked with, you know, instead of trying to squash that talent, they harness those big personalities and channel that energy into outstanding results. Okay? So what you do is you take the baton and you run with it and you make it work for you. If you're smart, that's what you're going to do. So you know, I'm widely regarded, for example, as quite eccentric. Okay, I'll put it out there. I'm very eccentric, but effective. And I don't think there's a single person that I've ever worked with in the history of my career that would say that I'm a shrinking violet. But I have been very lucky and very fortunate to report to several C Suite executives over the course of my time who have created an environment and guardrails for me to deliver my best results and to deliver my best work, whilst also still being able to be true to myself and who I am now. You know, I'm all about naming names and I do think that, you know, exceptional leadership, you know, deserves to be recognized. So I'm going to give you a couple of examples. Okay? So my current role reports to the group Chief Operating Officer of, uh, Forbes Australia. Her name is Anna Hannaford. Anna is one of the most measured, you know, women that you'll ever meet in business. She's a powerhouse. She is self assured and she is secure. She's also very established in her career. So as a result of all of those things, she has created an environment where I haven't needed to diminish who I am for her to be able to get the best out of me. So I think that's a great example. Another example would be, you know, prior to Anna, I reported to the CEO of Rainmaker Media a gentleman by the name of Chris Page. And he was very entrepreneurial, incredibly successful, and he was also nobody's fool. Okay? So, you know, I mean, Chris knew that I was a money spinner, okay? And he had the confidence not to interfere with what he knew was working. So here's the first lesson. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Okay? And here's the second lesson. The best leaders don't create clones of themselves. You know, authenticity is a beautiful thing. I think we need to embrace it.

Speaker A: I, uh, think it's a great call. And I had a chance to meet Anna briefly in Sydney and I totally got that impression of her as well. Let's talk a bit about the flip side though, because we've all worked under people we maybe didn't see eye to eye with. We didn't gel with their style. Some of it's personal, some of it is actually, you know, the responsibility might sit more so with the leader than the salesperson and vice versa. Park all of the messiness of it. I just want to know from your perspective at a really kind of sort of clinical level, how do you separate a, uh, leader from a boss? Like what? What are some of those things that actually drive that, uh, poor leadership behavior, in your view?

Speaker B: Oh, we've all witnessed absolute train wrecks masquerading as management, haven't we, Jamie? I mean, it kind of just comes with the territory, I think. Spend enough time in business and you'll collect enough stories that will make your toenails curl in everybody else's, for that matter. Um, I do think it is easy to forget, though, that leaders, um, are really just people. You know, they're people, and they are as flawed and as complex, you know, and as human as the next person. It's just that their fears and their insecurities have a much bigger sphere of influence, and a bad manager can actually do a lot of damage. So there is a saying that goes, you know, the higher your position, the longer your shadow. And I really do understand at this point in my career what that actually means. We all have our own ideas about what makes a shitty leader, right? But if you are asking me for my own opinion and point of view on this, it's really when you have an extraordinarily competent employee, so an absolute superstar working under a very insecure leader, and that is really a recipe for disaster, you know, what's best for the business suddenly becomes a secondary consideration, and the conversation becomes much more about protecting one person's need for control. Okay? Suddenly you're not an asset, you're a threat. Okay? And what's really going on is that your boss is so scared that you're actually going to swoop in, um, and pull the rug from under their feet and potentially take that role yourself. So instead of rewarding talents, it becomes something to be managed, you know, and this is the type of leader that wants you to make yourself smaller to appease their own ego considerations. So for me, the difference is simple, Jamie. A boss demands respect, and a, uh, leader commands it. And those are two very different things.

Speaker A: Such a good way of looking at it. And it's funny you, um, you make that point, Steph, because I think I had a level of that in my early career. Not so much insecurity, but definitely that tendency to want to get the person to conform to my way of doing things or wanting to kind of come in and have my fingerprints on the deals and kind of be the, you know, it. I think there was a bit of a detachment from my own ego that needed to occur there. But one of the most interesting lessons I had early in my leadership career was from A sales director, uh, who kind of sat me down and said, you know, you actually need to find your successor. Uh, and you need to make yourself replaceable. Like you, not redundant, but you're not going to be able to promote or elevate yourself through the organization if I can't replace you with somebody because you've created an environment where no one else can step up or can grow or can develop. And just that reframe alone, I think, is something that does feel like it's missing a lot of the time. With modern leadership practices, there's this view of get into the role, protect the role, keep it, uh, um, feather the nest a bit, as opposed to thinking, how do I now take my next step? By elevating those around me, you know, and freeing myself up to go off and do my next thing.

Speaker B: I mean, sadly, Jamie, I do think, you know, based upon the things, you know, I've seen in my career, I think if you've got an exceptionally or extraordinary, you know, employee working under you, they're doing really well. You know, their numbers are there. You know, their performance is undeniable. I do feel that if you've got a really insecure leader sitting at the top of that employee, I think realistically, it really becomes more about, you know, that leader is scared that that employee is actually going to take their job. I mean, that's ultimately what it's really about.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, here's another sort of uncomfortable one, but a really good question to kind of toss around. Have a listener question. Danny Rako asked, how much of stepping up is capability versus perception and positioning? So, you know, to put it to you straight, is senior commercial leadership really about talent? Is it about politics?

Speaker B: Look, I think politics exist, Jamie. They absolutely exist. Um, but they are certainly no substitute for performance, okay? So I have very little patience for people that spend more time, you know, managing optics than actually delivering results. And to be completely honest with you, the whole thing just gives me the ick. Right? In commercial roles, you know, there is a scoreboard, and at some point, the conversation becomes very simple. So, you know, did you hit your number? Did you re sign the client? Did you do the deal right? I couldn't care less who you're friends with. I have very little regard for who your mummy and daddy know and whether or not your uncle is the CEO of Chemist Warehouse, okay? I actually really don't care. I don't care, okay? So at the end of the day, I'm really only interested in commercial acumen and outcomes and everything else is really Just background music. So I'll take an eccentric, unconventional personality who is hitting their number any day of the week. Right. Than someone who ticks every corporate box but is actually delivering very little value. Okay, so I certainly didn't. Didn't get to where I am in my career because, you know, I was worried about who liked me. You know, if anything, I've actually spent my career being willing to be misunderstood because I'd rather be respected than universally, you know, embraced by people who don't matter. And quite frankly, that's a hill that I'm willing to die on.

Speaker A: You know what's interesting, and I'm not. I don't want to challenge that point because I actually agree with what you're saying, but I do want to throw a slight perspective shift in here to consider is the word politics is actually the real. The real thing here is politics can have a very negative connotation when we think politics. But there is something to be said for being someone who can build cross functional relationships, can build a coalition of people that support them, can understand is how the system works, can read different dynamics that are playing out. And so I wonder, uh, you know, everything you said, I think around performance and, and credibility and all that. I totally agree. But from your perspective, how much of your own success, you know, came from that competence versus, you know, did you still have a couple of influential sponsors in your corner? You know, and, and were there those people there, you know, like so many leaders that, um, you know, how much of your own success came from that competence you spoke about versus having those influential sponsors in your corner? And why do you think so many leaders pretend, you know, that maybe they didn't actively chase the role? Like, is it, is it actually something to shy away from? Say, look, it's a high status position. It's pretty financially rewarding. I like running a big team with a lot of people I like, I like having an important job that I go to. I just would love to kind of talk more about that broadly, Steph. And, and I know that's a very vague question, but there's a bit to unpack in all of that, and I just love to hear your perspective on all of it.

Speaker B: Yeah. So Look, I think 95% of my own success came from my ability. Okay. I think, I think let's. I think that's a probably, uh, a very good starting point. I don't think anybody promoted me out of charity, and I was given opportunities to climb because my commercial results were undeniable. Right. Um, you know, it's a very difficult to argue with revenue numbers that are consistent, you know, year after year. Okay. For 10 years running. Performance is actually not a matter of debate in sales. In my opinion. You're either kicking it out of the park or you're not. And, you know, there's nowhere to hide. So did I have people who believed in me, backed me and gave me opportunities to grow? Of course I did, and I still do. And I'm actually very grateful for those people and they know exactly who they are. But let's also be clear, they didn't do all of this for me because I was nice to have around. They backed me because I earned the right to be here. My advice to account managers and executives and sales support at this point is really quite simple. It is be really good at your job, deliver consistently, and build credibility and promotions and opportunities and recognition will follow naturally. Okay, now, as to your second question. Why do leaders pretend that they didn't chase power? Maybe it's political correctness, maybe it's tall poppy syndrome. Maybe it's because ambition is a dirty word. I don't know. But what I do know is that I've never felt the need to disguise what I'm about. And, you know, I had my eye on the prize from the second I set foot in corporate Australia. And I certainly don't apologise for something that I worked relentlessly to achieve.

Speaker A: Um, what about for some of those people that are sitting. They're like Stephanie 10 years ago, and they're. They're sitting there and they have that aspiration as well, and they want to get to, you know, they want to get to this. This position and they want to understand the. The pathway to do it. What are some of the common blind spots you see? Like, what are those things that are quietly holding those talented people back from moving into the role? And one of the things they often can't see themselves.

Speaker B: This is actually a really good question. Um, and I've actually compiled a list, Jamie, because there are so many that, you know, I actually couldn't pick a top five. So here are some of my favorites. So what do I think hold talented salespeople back from the top job? So, in no particular order, I would say unsubstantiated ego, needing to be liked, taking disagreement personally, being unable to accept constructive feedback, wanting authority without accountability. So, you know, everybody wants the sexy title. Like, I get that right, but nobody actually wants to do what it takes to actually have it and then, you know, subsequently to actually keep it right there's also a general failure to understand how your behavior is now being constantly observed. You know, forgetting that your team will copy what you do. Expecting people to work harder than you are prepared to work yourself. Confusing visibility with value. Okay? Believing that aspects of the role are beneath you. Protecting your position instead of protecting what's best for the business. That's a really big one. Believing that you're actually underpaid, when in fact you're not underpaid, you're just underperforming. There are so many. But I think all of this really comes back to a general thematic of entitlement. And you know, I'm just not. I mean, entitlement for me is, is probably one of the most unattractive qualities that a person can possess, either profess professionally or personally. And you know, I make no secret of that.

Speaker A: You know, I think the, the one that jumped out to me, which I've never heard articulated so well, but I'm going to steal and use is authority without accountability. I mean, what a beautiful way of articulating that. It's like you, you don't get all the perks, the perceived perks of being in a position where you carry a little bit of weight and, or status, but you gotta be willing to sign up for the whole thing. You can't be selective. You can't have it both ways. Uh, what a beautiful way of saying that. What I, what I wanted to jump into straight away though, after that great list was early on, you know. M. Let's say you've got a junior person in your team and you know they've got longer term aspirations to step into the sales director role at some point. What does someone actually need to demonstrate to be seen as ready for this kind of step into sales director? And I'll give you a scenario. You've got a person in your team that's maybe in their second or third year as a salesperson. They're performing well. You know, they've got greater aspirations. They'd eventually like to be a sales director. What, uh, are you kind of looking for? Like what do they actually need to demonstrate to show that a, they've kind of right for that path? And how early should they start kind of building towards that plan in your view?

Speaker B: Look, I think, Jamie, people are so obsessed with the next job as opposed to actually focusing on excelling in the role that they're already in. So I think my first piece of advice is to really avoid making that mistake. Do the simple things brilliantly. And that means, you know, turning up Prepared, keeping your word. If you've got in office, days turn up for them, you know, don't call me and tell me that you need to work from home. You know, it's probably. It's actually one of my most hated scenarios, okay? Follow through, become indispensable, be reliable. This is something that you should be doing from day one. And, you know, uh, from my point of view, Jamie, another significant consideration here is tenure. I mean, I don't think people kind of acknowledge that or talk about that enough. So please don't present to me with 24 months in media sales and then turn up in my office and tell me that you want to be the CEO. Uh, I'm really not interested in hearing it, okay? I'm all about celebrating potential, but, you know, for goodness sake, right? Leadership does require pattern recognition, scars and experience. You know, ambition is fantastic, but delusion isn't so much, you know. So the most effective leaders I've actually ever worked with, Jamie, all have one thing in common, and that is that they've got their runs on the board. Okay? So they've carried the number. They've sailed through good and bad cycles. You know, they've lived through enough commercial ups and downs to understand that leadership isn't really just about lip service. It's really more about having judgment that only experience can bring.

Speaker A: Such a good point, Steph. I want us to kind of take a bit of a left turn now. I want to talk about the personal side of leadership. So we actually had, uh. On the LinkedIn post, you put, uh, Lara actually submitted a question she wanted to ask about the personal cost of success. What are the real sacrifices? And was there a point where the role tipped from enjoyable into more about carrying the responsibility?

Speaker B: Yeah, look, success is very expensive, Jamie, and it doesn't always invoice you in money. I think. Let's start there. One of the perspectives that really resonated with me most was from the former PepsiCo CEO. Her name is Indra. Yeah, yeah. And she made a very important point where she famously suggested that work life balance is really a largely unrealistic concept and that everything actually has an opportunity cost. And I do think people in general need to be more candid about, you know, the personal sacrifices involved in occupying a senior leadership role, because they absolutely do exist. And to be honest, the juggle can feel really overwhelming sometimes. There's only so much time, energy, and psychological bandwidth that you have in a day, a month, you know, a year, and something is absolutely going to give. Okay? So for me, there have absolutely been trade offs. And in my personal example, those trade offs manifest themselves in my personal life. My social and emotional battery at the end of the week is really at zero. There are times when I walk through my front door at 9pm, 9:30, 10pm and I can't even string a sentence together. Jamie, you know, I'm so tired, you know, I've got an embarrassing number of missed calls on my phone without any appetite to respond. You know, not because obviously I don't care about those people, but because, you know, I've just got nothing left to give. So, you know, the personal cost of success is going to look very different for, you know, for everyone, depending on your personal circumstances. But you know, for example, you know, it may be, you know, missing out on time with your children, it may be, you know, missing birthdays, anniversaries and holidays, it may be relocating overseas or interstate for work related reasons, or it may just be carrying the guilt of not really being present anywhere. Okay? So I still derive an enormous amount of personal satisfaction and pride in the role that I occupy and in what I do. But to answer your question, I don't really think that there was ever really a single tipping point because leadership, in my opinion, is an always on strategy.

Speaker A: Um, so knowing everything you know now, would, you know, if you could start over, Would you still pursue it? Would you still pursue executive leadership?

Speaker B: Absolutely, without hesitation. And I'm going to tell you why. Right. So I've never been someone that has been comfortable with average, with the masses, with mediocrity. I realize that's a very controversial thing to say, and I'm sure it probably makes me sound very elitist, but ultimately, you know, I've always been outrageously competitive, outrageously driven, very type A, and I don't think my personality would be compatible with any other way of life. But I think secondarily and sort of becoming and sort of getting more personal now. You know, I grew up in a single parent household, so I actually had a front row seat to what financial struggle looked like. And I think from there I actually became obsessed with security and the idea of building something that no one was ever going to be able to take away from me. And I was always going to do whatever it took to make it okay. So executive leadership has given me choices, freedom, perspective, and a profound sense of personal agency. And I have no regrets because. Jamie, what's the alternatives?

Speaker A: Well, you know, I think, I think you've given a very good perspective there though, uh, on what the trade offs are. Right. And what the tensions are and what the. The obvious benefits are, but also what some of those costs are going to be. Because this was, uh, the whole thing I wanted to get at at the end of this episode, before we jump into the final question is you got a seller listening to this right now who genuinely wants this. They aspire to the sales director, sales leader, commercial director, chair. What's the most useful shift in mindset or behavior that you think they can make right now to actually put themselves on that path and to increase the likelihood that they're going to get there?

Speaker B: My advice is brutally straightforward, and that is just become so good that they can't ignore you. So you need to create a reputation of excellence for yourself, both within and around your internal stakeholders. So within your kind of internal organization and externally with your clients, your vendors, and your partners. Because if you do a good enough job of that, you know, the market will introduce you and know your name before you even have to sort of go out there and try. I think that's really the first point that I would make. I think doing what you say you're going to do goes a really long way. So in a world of flakes and fakes, you know, all the things I absolutely despise the most, reliability is actually a beautiful thing. And finally, I think, operate from a position of understanding that the world doesn't owe you anything. Okay. Work ethic is one of the only variables in the world that everybody can control. Okay. And it's one of the easiest ways to stand head and shoulders above your peers. And equally to that point, I would say that discipline and consistency are, uh, the easiest competitive advantages you could possibly deploy. Right. So, you know, control the things that you can control. Work hard, harder than the next person, do more, be better, you know, and you will be unforgettable.

Speaker A: Wow, I love that. Let's jump into the next question. This is a listener question, and this kind of goes back to something we've already covered off. But I'd love to hear your perspective and advice for this individual.

Speaker B: I can't ask my sales manager that.

Speaker A: I've been one of the top billers on my team for a few years now, and I keep being told I'm not quite ready for a step up into leadership. But no one will tell me what ready actually looks like when someone keeps hitting their number but never gets the nod. What's usually really going on and what should I actually be doing about it? That's a tough one because we don't have the broader context. But if you just sort of throw that as a hypothetical, that last line to me. What's really going on and what should this person be doing about it? What do you think's going on here, Steph? What would you sort of suggest this person starts to think about?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I want to start by saying that whoever your leader, your manager or your boss is, you need to start by clearly articulating what your career aspirations are to that individual. Okay. So you need to start at step one. Now, if what you're actually saying is true and you are a top performer, a top biller, you know, you're hitting your number, you're hitting your target, you know, your boss needs to give you a bit of a succession plan. So they need to articulate to you fairly clearly what they need to see from you and in what sort of period of time to get to where you want to be. However, this question, I actually found it quite interesting because this individual says, no one will tell me what ready actually looks like. Well, what that actually says to me is that's a massive red flag. Like, what do you mean that no one will tell you what ready looks like, what's actually going on in your business that, you know, your manager can't communicate something as basic as this to you. So I think that raises further questions around, you know, the nature of the leadership that you're actually working under. But also what I'll also say is I'd, uh, encourage a bit of honest self reflection too. Right. So, you know, are you actually already acting like a leader or are you simply chasing a title? Okay. Because in my experience, the best performers don't actually surprise anybody. And when, you know, promotions, um, actually happen, it's not a shock.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think, I think you've unpacked that beautifully because to me, I agree with you. If they haven't, if this individual hasn't been, uh, you know, clearly communicated to, as to what exactly is required to take that step and where maybe those deficiencies are, uh, that's a management issue. But I would also agree with you that there's clearly some sort of a blind spot or there is something here that is going to require that person to go and have that conversation with their leadership or do some really serious self reflection here. But we wish them very well. Steph, this brings us to the end of the episode. It's actually been awesome chatting to you. And, um, I think I don't want to sort of throw this at you again, because you rounded it out beautifully, but if there was like a final piece of advice for the audience, something they might be able to just take away and apply immediately this week. What would that be?

Speaker B: Don't be entitled. Earn every step that you take.

Speaker A: Love it. Short and sweet. Steph, always a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time.

Speaker B: Thank you. This podcast app was made by Abes.