Investment: Josh Johnson, Director of Programs Special Operators Transition Foundation, US Army Veteran

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Chris Spencer: Welcome to the Maven Podcast. I'm your host, Chris Spencer, and in this episode, I'm joined by Josh Johnson, Director of programs for the Special Operators Transition Foundation. As his military chapter came to a close, Josh, a retired U.S. army veteran with nearly 32 years of service, much of it within U.S. special Operations, turned to the Special Operators Transition foundation, or sodf, for guidance in navigating what came next. That experience didn't just help him find his footing in a new career, it sparked a deeper calling. After spending his first few years out at uniform, applying the skills he'd sharpened over decades of service, Josh returned to Soto not as a participant this time, but as a leader now. Now he's committed to helping other transitioning special operators find their way forward, giving back through the very program that helped launch his own next chapter. In this episode, Josh shares real world insight into the challenges of transition, the importance of self discovery, and why success beyond the military comes down to one key investment. From developing a shared vision with your family, establishing a strong network of connections, to executing that plan with the same tenacity forged in service, Josh offers a grounded, motivating roadmap for anyone standing at the edge of a major life shift. We have all we need to become the, the person we want to be. So let's remember how to connect with others with sincerity and genuine intent as we continue the mission to serve. Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoy this episode and please remember to check in on your buddies and family. Josh's contact details are in the podcast description and you can always find me on LinkedIn.

Chris Spencer: Good morning, Josh.

Josh Johnson: Hey, good morning, Chris. Good to see you.

Chris Spencer: Good to see you. Thanks for joining on this early Monday morning.

Josh Johnson: I appreciate it.

Chris Spencer: Anything exciting happening in the next couple days or. How was the weekend?

Josh Johnson: Uh, weekend was good. We're, uh, my wife has a long list of honeydews and she was out this week, so I took the opportunity to kind of, kind of knock some of those out. So I'm repainting kitchen cabinets, so I got to do all the sanding and prepping and start painting that. So not, uh, as relaxing as, as a typical weekend, but not bad. Not bad with your hands. You feel like you accomplished something.

Chris Spencer: Yeah, that's some tedious work too. That's. I mean, got to get it right or you can see it. That's right.

Josh Johnson: A lot of podcast Time, right? You get, you got to listen to all your good fun.

Chris Spencer: Did you pick up anything, any good ones?

Josh Johnson: Uh, man, I listened to a couple. Um, Sean Ryan's got the health and wellness doctor and he's just going through the whole food process and you know, trying to figure out how to eat right and uh, some good stuff. Right? He's like, hey, man, if, if, if you don't have that ingredient in your, in your cabinet right now, don't e food. And uh, that's pretty simple things like just, you know, whole, whole foods, whole ingredients. Yeah, he's digging, digging into the, the whole saturated fats and seed oils and all that and yeah, it's good stuff.

Chris Spencer: Yeah, no, it's good. Those little things help. All right, Josh is here to talk about the Special Operators Transition foundation. And of course, as we typically do, we, we lead in with a little bit about our guest. And so Josh, if you wouldn't mind, tell us a little bit about you.

Josh Johnson: Yeah, so again, I appreciate the opportunity to get on the Maven podcast and uh, have this conversation. You know, we've, uh, sotif the Special Operators Transition foundation and Oracle has built a really strong relationship over the last, I don't know, year or so and it's only getting stronger and so, you know, cool opportunity like this to get on and talk with folks and, you know, just explain what we do. I'm very appreciative of that, um, of the opportunity. So, born and raised in Utah, come from a decent sized family, five of us total. Spend a lot of time, you know, in sports because, you know, the more practice you have, the less chores you have at the house. So, you know, you spend as much time out of the house as possible and leave, leave everything else to the little siblings. Let them do all that, join the army early with this lofty goal as a 17 year old terrible student of becoming a, uh, an FBI agent. At the time I had the opportunity to talk to an FBI agent, he's like, hey, we want accountants, lawyers or linguists. And I was like, well, not going to go to law school. Math is my worst subject. Apparently I need to go learn it, learn a language. So I joined the Utah Army National Guard, uh, to be a Russian linguist. And when I got down to the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California, I found out that I do not learn languages very well. So, uh, struggled in that. Ended up not passing that, which was one of the first times I'd ever failed anything. That was kind of a, uh, a kick in the guts and a reset Came back, got married, had a baby, and was doing, like, construction, and then the National Guard and. And realized that. That I probably want to try something else. And law enforcement was still on my mind, but I was too young to go be a police officer in the state of Utah, so I joined active duty, uh, became a military policeman, did that for about 10 years, and then we were stationed in Belgium. I had gone back to the states to the Army's PSD Protective Services, uh, detachment, like bodyguard school. And in my mind, I had this picture that it was going to be all of these, like, top performers, because who. Why wouldn't you want that? You know, guarding all these, you know, important people? And it wasn't. It was a little bit. A little disappointed, but there were two Navy SEALs in the course. And when we were doing our intros, everyone's like, oh, uh, you know, I'm stationed in Belgium and we're going to be providing security for the, the sacur and, you know, all these. Everyone's kind of going around where they're going to be assigned, and the two Navy SEALs, the one of them gets up and he goes, uh, we're actually here to learn how to kill guys like you. And I just started laughing. I was like, well, that's a different mentality. But through the program, I mean, it was great. Course with great training, we learned a ton. Um, I just wasn't overly impressed with the people I was surrounded with, and I kind of got thinking about the people in the, in the organization. And it, it dawned on me that I was just ready to be surrounded by a kind uh, of a, ah, I don't want to say a high caliber, but at least people that were looking for something more because it can become shift work and, and all that stuff that comes with being a military policeman, it can become, um, kind of, hey, let's just get this done and get over it and get through with this. And, And I get it right. It's long hours, midnight shifts and, and all that stuff. And so there's not a lot of training that was going on. Um, but I just decided I wanted to try something different. So I came home, took my wife out to dinner. Uh, been gone a month. And she was like, well, how was the trip? And I was like, it was good, but, um, I think I want to go Special Forces. And it was like the record player stopped. The restaurant got suddenly quiet. Everyone was staring. And she was like, uh, are we gonna talk about this? I said, I feel like that's what we're doing now. And she's like, sounds like you've already made a decision. I said, well, I think I have. And so ended up, you know, we talked it through and there were a lot of, of misconceptions, uh, and, and you know, rumors and, and all these different things. And we ended up finding we had a chaplain, uh, who had been a, who had been a prior 18 Alpha. So special forces officer made it to the rank of major. And then he decided he wanted to go into chaplaincy. And so we had a chance to talk with him, uh, and he was like, here's the deal, like as in any other mos in the military, you're gonna have people that make, you know, terrible decisions. He goes, but there's a lot fewer of them. And you know, all of these rumors that you hear, they're just really not all that true. What you're hearing are the bad highlights. It kind of ease some of that concerns that she had. And I just out of fire in my belly and just decided that it was gonna happen. So I trained up really hard, uh, which was super interesting because I'm, you know, rucking through these little Belgian towns carrying 5 gallon water jugs and just whatever. People are looking at me like, what is crazy American doing? But I went to selection and I, I did well. And man, what a, what an ordeal. The uh, if anyone ever know if anyone's ever heard anything about special, uh, forces assessment selection, it's three week process. Uh, week one is all like individual assessments, swim test, PT test, psychological eval, some runs, some rocks, a little bit of classes on land navigation, uh, to just get everyone to kind of baseline. And then week two is all individual assessments, uh, so primarily based around land navigation skills. So I mean you're walking, you kind of start out small and you're doing like four or five mile day and night iterations and then it pluses up and then you culminate with like a 25 mile night into day assessment. And that's a hard pass. If you don't pass that, you're out. Uh, and then you go into team week. And team week is it, It's a unique experience because they give you all of these crazy tasks and you have to, you know, immediately build rapport with the people you're working with. Establish, uh, a plan, enact that plan. And it's things like here's an old army jeep with three tires, uh, and here's four, you know, 12, uh, foot poles and some lashing rope. Move this thing eight miles down the road. Or um, one that they referred to as the Fat Bastard or the down pilot. It was a, uh, an army duffel bag, the old school army duffel bag filled with 300 pounds of dirt. And then you got these four, uh, lashings, you know, poles, and you make a litter out of it and you carry that thing. It, it felt like 100 miles. I'm sure it was only like five or six. But you're just doing all of these different tests, day and night iterations of all these different tests. And they're looking at, you know, what your leadership ability is, what, what you're going to be like as a, as a team member. Do you have the ability to dig in when things get tough? And so at the end of that, if you pass all of those gates, that's just the entrance exam to go to the, the Q course. So I was in Belgium at the time, so I had to go back and the army rule was you have to complete two thirds of an overseas tour before you could return. So I had about eight months left. So just, you know, kept trying to get in better and better shape, brush up on some skills that I didn't, didn't have. Got into a bunch of infantry manuals and Ranger handbook and things, you know, things you don't necessarily do as an MP and then showed back up. But I got selected to be an SF medic, which was incredible. Um, I always had kind of an interest in medicine, first aid and whatnot. So you go back, you do um, what they call phase one, which is like, uh, it's small unit tactics, so kind of like a mini Ranger school. It's about 45 days long, multiple patrols that you're testing day and night. And you've got three different positions. So you got to, uh, you gotta, you gotta get tested at and go through and finish that went into the, to the SF Medic course. And the SF Meta course is one of the most insane, intense, incredible courses that the military has to offer. So it's a year long process that takes you from a, here's Basic medical, get yourself, uh, earn yourself your paramedic, uh, license. You go and do some rotations at a, at a hospital and then you do some rotations on an ambulance crew. So you're seeing uh, you know, emergencies and then you go into the trauma side and they've got these just incredibly well laid out scenarios with uh, you know, mannequins that give biofeedback and just all these things and every day is just kind of a test, just a test and um, working your way through that. And then you end up going into advanced medicine where you're learning surgery and dental and laboratory work and you name it. At the end of this, you're allowed to be what, what the Navy refers to as a, um, an independent duty corpsman. So you can be the sole medical provider for, uh, American and local, uh, forces. And I'm telling you, SF medics come out of there with skills, I mean, far above at least on the tactical that, the hands on emergency trauma stuff. It's pretty funny. We go through these hospital rotations, we do two of them m during that course, and the SF medics will get in there and they're faster than doctors, uh, on some of these things, like sinking a chest tube. Somebody's got, you know, taking a wound to the chest and they're, that cavity is filling up with blood or air and, you know, guys are sinking these chest tubes because they've done 30 or 40 of them, whereas the average doctors read about one, saw a PowerPoint on it, had somebody kind of walk them through it. Uh, and so you get, you get done with that and you feel like you are just super well trained. Uh, and it was kind of the first time I ever walked out of an army school feeling like, man, I know something, like, I legitimately know how to do something. Then you go back, you do the big culminating exercise. It's called the Robin Sage exercise, and it's a simulated unconventional warfare exercise. It's about 45 days long. You get your mission, you go through planning, you do this big, long, you know, infill helicopters and rucking and linking up with partisans and, you know, moving into a guerrilla base with these, you know, guerrilla fighters that are taking on this big long government. And the scenarios that the, uh, that the instructors, uh, come up with and the local population that's been doing this for the 50, 60 years that SF has been in existence. I mean, we got, we got tasked to take out a, uh, train bridge one time. And I was like, okay, this will be kind of cool. Sneak up in the middle of the night, you're placing, you know, you know, simulated explosives and whatnot. And we were on a time hack and you know, hey, the train is going to come by at this time. And then sure enough, a train went by. And I was like, are you kidding?

Chris Spencer: M me?

Josh Johnson: You guys got a train to do this? Because it went over the bridge, it stopped, came out, they did an evaluation, and then the train went back. And I was like, you, you legitimately got somebody to drive a train in the middle of the night for this exercise. So super cool, uh, train come out of that, go to language school which uh, as we already know I'm not super strong on learning languages. It I was able to, to learn enough Indonesian to pass the test and move on to 1st Special Forces Group. 1st Group. So you've got five active duty SF groups and they're all kind of regionally aligned. 1st Special Forces Group has a primary responsibility for what they call Indo Pacom, so Asia. So I got to do a lot of work in the Philippines and Thailand and um, India and Bangladesh and just really get to understand that, that area. And then you know all the, the big wars kicked off and so we're doing rotations in between, you know our AOR and then going to Iraq and going to Afghanistan. And so you get just a really good understanding of the capabilities of special operations. Got back, got to become A, an SF team sergeant. Um, and typically that's an E8 position and it's about a two year assignment. But I had, when I first got to sf, I got assigned to a dive team, so underwater operations team. Uh, and there was only one per battalion at the time. And then they decided they wanted to grow the capability. Well at that point I was a diver, a dive soup and a dive medical technician. And they were like hey, we want you to go stand up another dive team, uh, grow that capability uh, within the battalion. So as a non promotable E7 I got picked up to go do that. Ends up, I got, I, I ended up with almost four and a half years as, as a team sergeant which is you know, twice as long as, as the average person gets. It was awesome, just incredible. Uh, some of the best soldiers I've ever worked with. Doing some, some really cool missions, building a capability and, and growing a team from the ground up was, was pretty fun. As I left that um, I, I got the opportunity to go do a uh, a um, they call it an MPEP M A Military Exchange or military, Military Professional Exchange Opportunity Program rather. So I was the sole US guy with the Australian sasr. So Australia's tier one unit. Got to run a gun with those guys for two years. And one of the just I mean I'm living in Perth, Australia. I'm 1km away from probably the most beautiful beach in the planet. Running with, with, with guys that are just super motivated and uh, very well trained and just thoroughly enjoyed that. When I came back, uh, I was a senior E8 getting ready to get looked at for uh, E9 but I had Kind of decided that I was, it was time, right? I was at 20 years at that point. And they assigned me to a company that one of my really good friends was, uh, he was the company sergeant major and he's like, hey, I want you to be my operation sir and I want you to, you know, get us ready to, to do a combat rotation over Afghanistan. And I said, well yeah, I'm, I'm cool, but I, I think I'm, I think I'm going to get out.

Chris Spencer: So.

Josh Johnson: Guy's name is Danny Orozco and he's famous for, for saying that he's only got a, uh, you know, a 12th grade, uh, California public school education, but he's got a master's in trichonometry. He essentially tricked me into staying in for the rotation. And then during the rotation he said, hey, I want you to go be the battalion, um, you know, first sergeant. And then ended up making certain major. And so, you know, came back, took over that exact same company as a company sergeant major, took him back to Afghanistan and then came back and then I ended up closing out my um, my time at ah, what we call the Advanced Skills Company, so managing all the training for parachuting, diving, shooting, uh, some of the intel courses, the JTACs, they're called SOTAX and NSF. Just a great way to close out uh, a career. And so I ended up doing just under 32 years uh, after I told that guy I was going to get out at 23. But it was good, it was an incredible experience. So I retired in July, um, kind of at the beginning of the whole Covid scare and there was a bunch of um, issues with trying to get my VA claims process because the morning I was supposed to go in and meet with my VSO, there was an 8 o' clock and an 8:30 appointment. I had the 8:30 appointment at 8:15. The world shut down because of COVID you know, trying to figure out what I was going to do. And the army at my unit essentially said, hey, go figure out how to be a civilian. You're going to retire, we're going to give you the time to go do that. And so, you know, started working on, you know, what that was going to look like. And I think like most of us when the time comes, uh, were ill prepared for it. And I remember sitting down thinking, okay, well let, let's figure out this process. And I just stared at a wall trying to, to you know, whiteboard, trying to figure out what I was going to do and realized I didn't know, I didn't, I didn't know how to become a civilian. And about that time I'd heard of this organization at the time it was called your Grateful Nation and it was a soft specific, uh, veterans transition organization. So I called and interviewed for it and, and it was a rough interview. I was, I was surprised at, you know, how detailed they wanted and you know, the information kind of really digging into, make uh, sure that I was going to be the right guy because their reputation was based on, hey, we're bringing in the right people, putting them in front of the right organizations. But I was, I was selected for it, uh, went through that program, ended up getting picked up for a role with a company called Westshore Home. And they're a home, ah, improvement company based out of um, Carlisle, well Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania. So left Washington State where we were, where we were stationed, moved out to Pennsylvania and I was hired as the director of training and leadership development. So if there is, if there is a, a way to take an army sergeant major and put them into a civilian organization, that's the place, right? So they didn't have one at the time. Uh, it was a brand new concept that they were trying to develop and they said, hey, you know, you've got experience building a team from the ground up, uh, you've got all this experience in training and you know, development, uh, go figure this program out. So I ended up working for them for about two and a half years

Chris Spencer: and it was great.

Josh Johnson: Built this program from the ground up. Just learned an absolute ton about that specific industry. And then just civilian organizations in general ended up getting poached to go work doing leadership development consulting. And that was fun. Got to meet just, I don't know, 20 or 30 different organizations, everything from police departments to a, uh, cruise, uh, ship line up in Alaska and trucking company up in Minnesota and just all these different organizations. And so I got to learn a bunch about a ton of different industries, uh, through this process. But the entire time I had been very active as a mentor for YGN that then while I was in the program became the Special Operators Transition Foundation. So they did a name change to, to better align what they do, uh, just to make it a lot simpler or it was an advertising, uh, decision. But the line, you know, the, the name of the organization changed to align with the actual mission of the organization. And I've been very active, you know, helping new guys come into the program and trying to figure out what they wanted to do. And now suddenly I had all of this experience from being out of the military and working in these different roles. And they asked me if I wanted to come on uh, and become the Director of Programs. And so In January of 2023 I started in the role that I'm at now. So uh, it's great. So now I run the process that all of the fellows coming through the Special Operators Transition foundation go through. I get to do their initial intake call. I get to kind of figure out what, what it is that they're, they're looking for and what they want to do and then we run them through this process. And that is the longest 30 second intro I've ever given.

Chris Spencer: It's, it's necessary. Yeah, I assure you that it was good because there's a lot of things in packed impact inside of that that um, and I've been taking notes as you've been speaking and sharing. So thanks for, thanks for sharing the detail because does. It might feel like it is lengthy, but it tells the story of the things exactly what we're talking about, you know, and I mean the one thing, the most immediate, the closest thing to the end of, of what you shared is, you know, the choices that you're making and how it shifts and ma. The master uh, in, in trichonometry, I had to think twice about that because that's exactly what occurs I think. Uh, and on the top three things that occur when, when the longer you're in and the closer you are to a goal, in this case, let's say retirement at 20, there's a lot of contemplation goes on. It's probably preset as a baseline of what you expect to do right. At 20 I'm going to get out, you know, not 21, not 19, 20, not 23. Unless things happen. And so certain things and it seems in your experience something happened to where it, the options that were weighed brought more value than, than what you were considering. I mean it's no joke. It was what, 13 years after that expectation. So it's not like it was hasty. It may have felt that way, but it does, it does play a part in how challenging it can be when somebody's contemplating how do I go from where I've been for so long to something new and what influences me to get away from that? Is somebody going to validate how I'm feeling and then pull me away from what I've been doing or somebody going to give me a reason to continue on?

Josh Johnson: Yeah.

Chris Spencer: And, and I really love that part because it does express some of the things that I think we should dive into is, you know, how, how we're making decisions and what are the influences from a personal level, because even early on you coming back from training, I'm sure your wife wasn't expecting at dinner for you to share that you wanted to go left.

Josh Johnson: Yeah.

Chris Spencer: Versus go right or go straight or whatever it is you can compare it to. So let's start with that a little bit. Discussing with family, how important is it in anything that we're doing?

Josh Johnson: So I have this conversation with our fellows a lot. Most things in the army, you don't have much of a choice at right. You maybe get to reenlist and say, hey, you know, I want to go to this, you know, I want to go to Europe, I want to, you know, go to a specific unit or whatnot. Um, but typically speaking, you're marching orders, you act on those orders. Uh, and so there's not a lot of choice that happens, but there are those kind of pivotal moments of, all right, do I stay in this mos? Am uh, I going to go to 20? You know, uh, you know, it's kind of that 10 year mark that I think most veterans kind of look at. Really kind of the three decision points are after your first enlistment at the 10 year mark and then at the 20 year mark. And those are the times that you really need to have those conversations, uh, with the family and say, hey, where are we at? Right? Uh, is this going to be a good decision for the kids? Is it going to be, is this the right decision for what we're going to do? Is this right for me and my career? You know, I had that opportunity to go to Australia, but I had actually had that opportunity a few years before that to go compete for that, for that slot. Uh, and we sat down with a, with a big family decision. And my daughter was just starting kind of her high school years and she was super involved in a bunch of sports and a bunch of academic stuff and she was doing really well. And, uh, we had to make that decision. Is this the right time for the family? I do remember my son advocating for us to go. And we're sitting at the table and he goes, I just want to point this out there. If we go to Australia, I'm the one with the accent. I just started laughing. My wife goes, well, that kind of seals the deal for me. We're not going. But, uh, so, you know, and, and it was tough, right? That, that was, that was a unique opportunity to take the family and, and, and, and Take them overseas. And we just made that decision as a family that it just was not right, it wasn't the right call and ultimately worked out, uh, you know, I got the opportunity to do it later. There's a really cool process in the army that uh, if your kids are in college and you are overseas, the army will put them on TDY once a year and bring them out for a spring break. So I got to bring both kids out to Australia and they got to experience it. And so we didn't, we didn't really lose out on anything in the end. But at the same time it, it wouldn't have, it wouldn't have had the same opportunities for my daughter and my son, uh, if we would have uprooted them in the middle of high school. And that's a big one. And I hear that from, from guys all the time. Fellows. I should say coming through the program, hey, you know, where is it that you want to live? And like, well, you know, I've got kids in high school and I just don't think it's the right thing to uproot them in the middle of it. It's a valid decision. On the enlisted side, I think especially in special operations, you got a little bit more control of, of your assignments and, and you can kind of, if you plan it the right way, you can, you can set yourself up in positions that's going to do that for the officers. Once you, once you leave company command, it's a two year rotation. You're just going staff position to staff position to staff position. And that's, that's disruptive for the family, particularly in those teenage years. And so I get a lot of the fellows that when I say, hey, what's driving this decision to get out? Uh, and they're like, it's, it's family, right? It's, it's being around the kids, being, being an active part of my family. And I get that we were reflecting on this a while back. There was a three year period back when I was, uh, back on an SF team three years in a row. I was home less than 80 days per year. And we figured it out. The longest I was home, the longest I spent the same, or the longest I spent in my bed, uh, was 21 days in three years. And that, that, that's rough, right? You got deployments, you got training cycles, you got red cycle tasks and you got all these different things that you have to do. And the whole time your, your, your spouse is essentially a single parent and your kids are Living without either mom or dad. And so when you get the opportunity to involve your family, I think it's one of the most important things that you can do. Because it's not just you. Uh, I mean, if you're single, single guy or gal, live your. Live your life, Take whatever assignment you know, you can get. But if there's a family involved, there's a lot more decisions that have to be made. And one of the things that I talk about with the fellows, you know, we'll get people like, hey, my kids are in high school, but I ended up getting this job, you know, two states away. And so, you know, it's a great job. It pays a lot, it's doing what I want to do. I, I'm so used to being gone from the family. Uh, you know, we're used to it. And I. What I tell them is every other time you've been away from your family, it has been an army decision or a, uh, a, uh, military decision to take you there. You are now choosing to be away from your family, and you're gonna know it, and so is your family. And I really want you to ponder that. And I Gotta be honest, 8 out of 10 come back and say, yeah, we had a talk and this just not the right choice. We're gonna find something different. And I think that is, I think that is a right call. Now, for some families, it works, but I've just seen it. I've seen it go bad too many times in the military. I've seen it go bad too many times from this position that if your family isn't at least an equal part of that, uh, equation, it's. It's probably not the right decision.

Chris Spencer: Strong point. Because even, even if it were not the military, if you think about what separation brings and distance brings, any movie you watch, there's a, there's. There's a hardship that occurs, and then there's an evolution of thought. I would imagine everybody's going through it, whether they acknowledge it or not or understand it to be what it is. The, the distance creates now the opportunity for individual growth versus with your partner or the family, and your perspective starts to shift. And so if it becomes a norm, like a habit being developed, you start to understand what independence really feels like. And you do things on your own, and it draws you further away. And I think that's about oversimplifying it. I think, uh, that includes some of the complications to where. Trusting in advocacy, trusting in opinions, trusting in validation. We always say, have a buddy. What better One to have than your family to be able to talk about the things that you're going to decide in the planning phase. Because what you described, I was just imagining the similarities. Since we're talking about transition, the similarities of what we already recognize, what you're used to is planning. We're planning for an active or an event. And what do you do, you go find some opinions, you know, what are we going to do, how are we going to do it? And you start to develop the, the contingencies around those things. So what, because of where you are and your experiences, the, the role that you're holding and some of the, the advice and things that you share with others to consider. What's the emphasis on planning and the similarities between what they've been doing as a service member and what is necessary to plan for. Typically it's just another event. We could call it a deployment, another choice, um, that they're going to have to make because they're going to go do something different. What's the emphasis on planning?

Josh Johnson: I think it's the single biggest, uh, emphasis, uh, is planning out what that future needs to look like. You know, veterans who, who don't do a plan, who don't do the research, who don't figure out what it, what they want to do, what value they're going to find in that role, and they just take a first job because they need one. Uh, we know the stats on that, right? The average veteran goes through two or three jobs in two or three years because they just can't sort that out. And so our whole thought process is, hey, we're going to take your last year in the military and we're going to help you figure out exactly what that plan needs to look like. And we focus on three main areas. Where do you want to live functionally, what do you want to do, and then what industry, ultimately organization do you want to do? That functional area. And if you start that way and work your way down, it tends to work out and those things go hand in hand, right? So if you tell me, hey, my sole desire in life is to be a rocket scientist, but all of my family live in, in Sandpoint, Idaho. Nobody's building rockets in Sandpoint. So we either need to figure out how we're going to make you the very first fully remote rocket scientist, or we need to figure out functionally a different area that you need to go down. So what is the priority and what, what is your, your, your main planning factor? Uh, and if it's to be in a Geographic location. Great. Then let's figure out functionally what do you want to do that is available in that area, what industries are available in that area and then put a plan in place to achieve it. And so starting a year out and going through a whole process of figuring out who you are, what motivates you, what strengths you have, what experiences you're going to bring to a role, what is going to be a passion project for you and then refining that down tends to work out. Our stats are quite a bit stronger than that. Than that we, what we're seeing is most of our fellows stay in that role for two years and then promote either within the organization or promote within that functional area out. So they're making, they're making a uh, choice to leave that specific role because of growth and not because this, I don't like this culture, I don't like this company, I don't like what I'm doing. But it's because they have, we have developed a plan and then enacted that plan over a years long period to make sure that it's the right choices like that.

Chris Spencer: And you brought it up. Excuse me. So where you want to live, the function that you want and then the organization and the people you want to surround yourself with that, how tough is that to get them to understand what that looks like? If all they've known or at least in the most recent, I mean you talked about a year taking their year and then, and kind of using that as the, the catalyst for, for these things to understand who I work with is important, where I work is important. What steps do you take to help them understand, to be able to get that.

Josh Johnson: That's a great question. You know, we, we talk about the importance of networking and we kind of reevaluated this over the last year or so and you know, we, we tell people your network is, is going to, is going to get you your job. Right? Something like 85% of all professional jobs, I'm sorry, 95% of all professional jobs happen because of networking. So blanket online applications and resume submissions result in like uh, you know, a uh, 5% chance of your first interview and then it goes downhill from there. And if you talk to people that that's all they're doing, they'll say, oh, I've submitted 100 applications, I've only got you know, three or five interviews. Well yeah, because it doesn't really work that way. No matter what Glassdoor and indeed and LinkedIn tells you, most professional jobs happen because of networking.

Chris Spencer: So.

Josh Johnson: But what is Networking, right? And when you just tell somebody, hey, go network, like, uh, okay, what does that mean? Well, networking is. We start out with, hey, talk to your friends that have gotten out. Do they like their jobs? How do their skills translate? Do you know? Is it. Is there? You know, how is that organization? How does it feel culturally? And cast a wide net, Talk to anyone and everyone just to figure out what is. What is out there. I think. I think The army has 207 roles, and then you multiply it by that, by the number of ranks within that role. But 200, 207 jobs, that's not a lot. There are thousands of jobs that can be very broad or can be very narrow. And so figuring out what that means, we do a whole series of webinars on just Intro to the Industry, where I get people to come in and we talk everything from project management and construction, project management in the defense space. We've got a guy that does risk mitigation and risk management in commercial insurance. He's like, I. I was surprised at how well prepared I was for this role because I've done risk assessments my entire career, right? And so now I'm just doing the same thing. I'm looking at an operation by a company or by, you know, insure a company. Uh, so I start evaluating what those risks are. I've got a matrix that I put them up against, and then I make a decision as to whether or not it is worthwhile for, you know, this company to insure that company. And so, uh, it's pretty interesting. Almost, almost everyone that applies for the program want to say, what is. What do you think you want to do? And they all say the same two things. Consulting, because that's what special operators do. You go to a foreign country, you consult with foreign military or project management, because that's the easiest thing to translate. Hey, I was an AS3. I was a first sergeant. I was a platoon sergeant. Everything's project management. But the number of people that actually go into consulting and project management is, Is way lower than the near 100% that tell me that's what they want to do. But it's because we, we really introduce them to multiple opportunities and industries, right? Figuring out functionally what you want to do and then figuring out the industry. And so, hey, talk to as many people as you can. How do their skills translate? Do they like the job? Do they like the role? Uh, and then as you narrow down, then you want to open it up. So let's take Oracle, for example. Somebody says, hey, I think I want to get into business, you know, uh, software sales. And Oracle seems like a really cool company. All right, well, how many people at Oracle have you spoke with? Uh, I haven't. Okay, how do you know anything about Oracle? Like, well, I got on the website, they've got cool pictures and they're showing all these things. I'm like, yeah, but have you talked to anyone at Oracle? Like, no. I'm like, all right, well, let's do this. And so I'll either jump into my database and find the seven or eight folks that we have had hired by Oracle, or we'll get on LinkedIn and I'll say, all right, here's how LinkedIn, uh, uh, this is how you use LinkedIn, right? Go to an organization, you go to the people, you find the people that are veterans, and then you start reaching out, saying, hey, you know, I'm a transitioning service member. I've been doing this, uh, I'm super interested in Oracle. Can I get 15 minutes of your time? And I'm always surprised at the number of people who don't say yes because it's really low, which is awesome because I think veterans just want to help veterans. And so now you get somebody that knows what you've gone through, right? They know what you're currently doing, and they're willing to give that time and be very honest about the questions you're going to ask. Hey, what is work? Ah, life balance. What is the culture there? And so now you build up, uh, um, your information about an organization, and then just based off of that, now you can start narrowing that network into something you want to do. I tell fellows all the time the last two questions you should ask in any networking opportunity is, hey, who else should I be talking to? And will you connect me? Right, Because I don't know who I should talk to at Oracle. Right? I just know Oracle is a great company. These roles seem to align with what I want to do. People seem to be happy there. I'm talking to somebody at logistics or I'm talking to somebody at marketing, but really I want to get into business development. So who do I talk to? Oh, uh, I've got a really good buddy over there. Or, hey, I'm part of this maven organization. Let me connect you with them. And that boom, now you've got, you know, this whole audience of folks that are, that are willing to, to help you narrow that down. And the introduction, I think, is super important, right? Because if, you know, you call me and you say, hey, what is life like over at Soda, if I'm like, oh, that's the greatest thing ever. And you and I get talking, I'm like, man, this is somebody I think it would be cool to work with. I, I can't bring him on my team. But man, I'd love to have him in the building. And, and then you hit me up with who else should I be talking to? I'm like, what do you want to do? You're like, man, I am all about raising money for a non profit. Okay, let me make a phone call, right? So now I call and say, hey, I've been talking to Chris Spencer. This dude is awesome. I would love to have him on my team. I just don't have space. But you know what he really wants to do is what you're doing. So now somebody that, that, that trust you, that, uh, and you've said, hey, I've done an evaluation. I think this guy would be perfect. He's like, yeah, of course I want to talk to him. So now you're a vetted, uh, asset that, that can be brought in. And so, uh, man, those, those two questions are so important. Who else should I be talking to? And, and will you connect me? Right? And networking is like mining, right? You dig down, you find a little bit of ore, you find a vein, you're going to run down that vein hoping to find the mother load. If it doesn't pan out, you m to where you know you've got something and you start working the next piece. And so the more points of contact you have into an organization, the better you're going to be able to evaluate it. And the more you have in common with the people you're talking to, the more they're going to be able to answer questions that make sense to you from where you're at. And that's what I love about networking is, especially in the veteran community, is you can get some real honest answers. I've had, I've had people that have talked to him like, what do you, what do you think about your job? Because this is the worst place I've ever worked in my life. Like, what are you doing there? Is like, you know, I signed up for the blood money. I've got, you know, another year so I can keep my bonus. And then as soon as that happens, dude, I'm out of here. I'm like, well, would you recommend it for anyone else? No, I would not. This is miserable. Like, okay, so if I get somebody that's interested in talking to, you know, are you willing to have that conversation 100% right. And that's one point of data, which is why you have to have a network of people. Because you can just have somebody that's angry and bitter, you know, having a bad day. But if you talk to four or five people and you're like, hey, this place sucks man. They just burned through us. We're cogs in the wheel and as soon as we wear out, they just replace us, like it's no fun. Or you talk to people and they're like, I love this place. I show up to work every day, my boss is super cool, I've got a gym that I can go to. You know, the people are dedicated, they're willing to help. And then you get four or five people that are telling you the same thing. Well, now you understand the culture of that organization. And so, uh, networking is so impactful in finding, hey, ah, what is it that I want to do functionally? And then what organization do I want to do it in? And just having as many conversations as possible.

Chris Spencer: Yes, there's truth in that statement. Josh and I are talking as a result of networking. So one of our friends, because Doug is a friend, but he's also a military parent, happens to live in the area, met up through somebody else, through another function inside the branch of service. They, you know, Doug gets introduced to, to your organization. And then we had uh, an event and he met you, introduced me to you. Now we're here talking. And the, the trust that comes as a result of that because you, you nailed it. The trust. I think that's the, the, that's, you have to establish the concrete evidence that you can trust somebody to be able to do these things. Because advocacy right now you, you'd love to help everybody, but not everybody is ready for help because of what they, what they currently believe and what they're ready to hear and those types of things we taught the candor that veterans have. Absolutely. Getting feedback from a veteran is going to help you regardless of how you feel about it, because it's going to tell you the hard truth or it's going to tell you something else. Right? And it's, it's necessary somewhat of ramble the going, going back to the two years things. If we can touch on this real quick, the expectation setting, uh, because there's there's some, some caveats to the, to the growth that occurs and then, and then uh, uh, the timeline and this just happens to, I mean it's not really arbitrary, but two years and that's somewhat related to service, to where you're going to transition, you're going to PCs, you're going to get promoted. There's a timeline that correlates to that, to where now it's conditions yourself to believe that that equates to success. Because there's some other things that hardships that we, we all are familiar with the suffering of being into a role in civilian life, in the public and the private sector, where we say, oh, it sucks, I don't want to be here. Well, you're still learning something. And so, uh, what I've done is kind of revealed this, this notion that if it's uncomfortable, I don't need to stay. And I've been lately just more so as like, well, if you think about what you're learning, if you're within five years of transition, you're actually understanding what it is like out here now with that environment. And of course you don't need to stay. But it is giving you something to where now you can recognize how to navigate that. Because now you're, you're collecting what you, you had mentioned. It's one data point your experience with one leader. Because you, you also mentioned somebody in your story, there's going to be bad decisions. The chaplain had told you they're still going to make bad decisions. There's fewer of them. And I think the one thing that we can all remember is when you're, when you are where you end up, just maybe pull yourself out of that sometimes spontaneous reaction to what's, what you're experiencing to realize you're going to get something from it and you're going to become better for it because now you're learning it. So maybe stick around and see what changes. Because the other part is you don't know what other people are going through. And if you can remember the influence that you have, you can maybe change and help that person or that team become better. And maybe that's your purpose. Because we don't know that.

Josh Johnson: Yeah, you know that that's such a good point. Um, you know, on average, you know, veteran, you know, particularly somebody getting ready to retire, they're going to move into a role with less authority and responsibility than the one that they had, right? Or gate commander or squadron commander, you know what all these things and, and you're going to take a step back and there is a good chance that the person who is your boss doesn't have the experience that you have in that role. And there is nothing wrong with leading from, from where you stand. Right. Leading up that Chain of command. And if, if you've got a boss that's struggling with somebody and you've got experience that, that you can help them out, why would you not? Right? I mean selfishly, you're, you're, you're making your environment better. I got a better boss. They know what they're doing better. I can teach them how to, you know, you know, lead through leaders intent or you know, just establish a basic, you know, battle rhythm. All these different things that we learn, uh, is going to make my life easier. More importantly, you're influencing everyone around you. Right? And if you can influence 1, 2 levels up, 2 levels down, left and right, you just created a much stronger team. That environment that you may not like is probably going to be a lot better. Right? So invest in the role that you're in, um, and, and give it its due diligence because there's a very good chance that you're going to find uh, that, that what you learn from that position and what you learn from those experiences is going to set you up for success. And I promise you know, this, everyone else knows this. Somebody's watching. If you're just a person who's like, well this sucks, I'm just going to do my work and punch out at 5 o'.

Chris Spencer: Clock.

Josh Johnson: Somebody's watching. But if somebody goes, hey, we have some legitimate problems and, and you're actively working on them, what do you, what do you think you could do from this level? Right? And so now you're setting yourself up for, for you know, success within that organization by doing the things that you know how to do, right? Hey, I've got experience leaving a lead in at this level. Let me show you a few things. Let me influence the way you're making decisions. You know, and sometimes you can't just go to your boss and say, hey, you suck. I've done this. Listen to me. You just got to put those little, little, little thought bubbles in there and hey boss, have you thought about this? Or you know, here's an idea. It's pretty amazing how, how well you can change the environment you're in if you're, if you're just dedicated to, to making everyone around you, uh, up and down, left and right better.

Chris Spencer: That part, yeah, the, the influence that you have and sometimes we forget, um, I'm guilty of it. I don't know about you Josh, but. Oh, uh, why can't they just see it? Well, I'm telling them. Yeah, we just talked about it. Sometimes they're not ready and so tact and professionalism and strategy, strategic approach, you know, all those things still factor in. There's nothing different than what you learned. You know, to become an influence, you have to trust, you have to be trusted. Um, and there is this expectation that you know, leaders, leaders in the civilian sector, they, as we push for hiring veteran because the value we bring and all of these soft skill components that are demonstrating through that opportunity to be able to recognize that the opportunity exists to do these things. Sometimes we forget and so don't like, I like what you said. They're watching, everybody's watching because they're, they're hoping that you're going to bring something different. It's just that you got to work towards that commonality to get to that part to where everybody sees mutually exactly what the value is on, on both sides. So I love that piece. So how does kind of segue into, to closing out? How does, how does one get connected to the organization and what are some of the key details that you haven't already spoken about that they should expect going through that?

Josh Johnson: Yeah, so you know, like, like the name implies, uh, we only work with, with special operators. It's not. The special operators are better than any other veteran. They're not. The only difference is in order to come into our organization they must have gone through a SOCOM based special uh, assessment selection process and then served honorably in a SOF unit. You know that assessment selection process, uh, it's there for a very specific reason. We are looking for people to have the character traits and attributes necessary to be successful and soft. Well, the good news is those are the same character, character traits and attributes that every organization is looking for. We've just got a process that proves that they have them. So for an organization, so for Oracle to look down and say, hey, why should we hire a soft fellow? Well, number one, it's a proven entity. Right. It's somebody that, that has, that has gone through this process that proves that they have all of these skills that are going to be valuable to your organization. Right. Just because of the nature of how we run our program. It's at the individual level. So it's not cohort based. It takes a year to get through the program. So I can shorten that down in, in certain circumstances I can turn that into eight or nine months. But the sweet spots a year and I'll even take folks out to, to 18 months if they're, you know, if they're gonna, in a role that, that this is gonna be a process. They're still in A command position or a command start, major position, uh, where they're gonna be super busy. Okay, let's stretch this out a little bit so you can still get all of this, but, uh, still be able to accomplish the things you do. So those are kind of the two main criteria. Uh, we do a vetting process. Everyone that comes through the program, uh, we make them, we make them get letters of recommendation, uh, and we ah, ask, you know, three pretty specific questions. Uh, is this someone that, that you would put your name behind if you, if you had control of the soda budget? Would you invest this amount of money into this individual? And are there any legal or moral concerns that would, that would hinder you from making this endorsement? Uh, if I get, if I can get three people to answer those three questions, they're the right individual to come into the program. And again, our reputation is built on the fact that we're putting the right people in front of organizations and saying, hey, this is a vetted entity that has proven their worth within, you know, an organization that is, you know, it's, that it's 2 to 3% of the entire DOD force, right? There is a selection criteria that you can trust. Um, and we have now given them a year of, of training, coaching, mentorship, uh, to help them really understand what they're going to be able to bring to a role. So the process is, it's a three phase process. While they're an active fellow, phase one, uh, is one on one executive coaching really designed to help them understand who they are and what they can bring to an organization and then development of their new value proposition statement. Right? In the military you've got your reputation, people know who you are, they've seen what you've done. Uh, you've built this reputation of becoming the person that can take on that next higher, um, level, uh, of responsibility. Outside of the military, nobody knows who you are, particularly if coming out of special operations unit just because of the, the classifications and all the things that we do. So we have to, we have to help start branding you outside of the military. We can't do that until we know who you are. And we can't really help you do that until you know who you are. So we haven't developed their value proposition statement. We haven't developed three or four stories that validate that value proposition statement that they can. You know, if you say, hey, I solve, you know, complex problems in austere environments, I go, oh, tell me about a time. And you're like, uh, well, there was this one Time. No, man, that's not going to fly. You've got to be able to articulate why you can provide that. We really help them define the criteria for a successful transition for them and their families. Spend a lot of time, uh, in that conversation. Then we do, um, some psychometric inventories. Uh, primarily we use the trimetrics, uh, DNA, uh, to figure out, hey, what are your strengths and skills? What are some of your weak areas and how do you, how do you use those to your advantage or how do you mitigate some of those? Uh, that, that may be a difference. We wrap this all up into an executive summary at the end of phase one. That for the individual, for that fellow, becomes the ultimate checklist of is this the right role for me? Am I going to be able to work within my value proposition statement? Is this company aligned with my personal and professional goals? Am I aligned with this organization's culture? Uh, does it meet my geography and does it meet my salary requirements? We use that document as we jump into phase two to help start branding them outside of the military, figure out who they are and what they want to do, and then figure out how to introduce them to another organization. Phase two is really kind of focused on two, uh, different areas. First, one is expanding the network, helping. Using our network to help them expand theirs. Uh, and then the other part are the hard skills of transition, right? How to network, how to use the available tools, how to write a really good base document resume, and then how to take that base document and target it towards a specific role you're going after. And then how to win the interview by proving you were the solution to somebody's problem. And this is a big conversation that we have, like, hey, nobody's hiring you because you're a veteran, right? Nobody's hiring you because you're a Green Beret or a Navy SEAL or the greatest AFSOC pilot to walk the planet. Somebody's hiring you because they have a problem at their organization and they need someone to fix it. And you have to prove that you're the solution to that problem based off the experiences that you're bringing. We want them in phase two for as long as they can be. So the, the transition point there is 120 days out before your available hire date. Whether you want to start working while you're on, you know, terminal leave, you want to wait till retirement, you want to take a couple months off and go vacation with the family, whatever that is. 120 days before that, we shift from networking and we start capitalizing on opportunities that either they have developed or we have introduced them to. So we jump into phase three and now it's execution. Right now it's time to start interviewing for those roles. So final interview, prep post interview, ars, any follow up interviews, guidance and support for uh, or through, once an offer has been extended, go through that offer letter with them so they fully understand what that means. And then the big one is comp negotiation, right? At no time in our military careers do we get to go to the first sergeant and say, hey, I'm worth more than the other platoon sergeants and here's why. But there's an expectation of that during the process. And again, hiring an individual is a business decision, which means they want to get you for as little as possible to do as much as possible. But there's a bracket, right? What we want to pay, what we're willing to pay. Uh, and so we work with them to be able to articulate why they're worth that higher end of that bracket. Uh, and so we go offer letter review, help with comp negotiation. Once somebody has accepted that role, we then put them into what we call phase four or the assimilation. And we start with a conversation about, hey, what are your best practices for your first 30, 60 and 90 days in your new role? What are the things that you need to prioritize? What do you need to know about the business? What do you need to know about your role? What do you need to know about your flow, uh, or your position within that flow of business? And how do you get noticed, the right way to set yourself up for long term, um, success. And then we're just there and available for them if they have any questions, any concerns, anything comes up when they've been in the role about 90 days because that's, that's when you start to kind of feel like, all right, I know I, I know enough about this role to be dangerous, but I also know enough to not, you know, overstep my balance. Um, then we ask them to come on and, and move to the alumni side. So when the next guy comes out that says, hey, I'm super interested in going to Oracle and get into business development, I go, hey, great, let me put you in touch with Chris Spencer. Uh, he's a sort of fellow, he's working over at Oracle. He'll be a really good uh, mentor for you. And then the idea is that person becomes the traction that pulls somebody through their transition. So you know, it's always, it's, it's take full advantage of Everything that we're going to offer you in the program and then give back to the organization so you can help the next, you know, veteran, uh, through their process. That's what we do.

Chris Spencer: It's amazing. Makes, makes all the sense in the world. And I really love that last part is we're helping you so you can help others bring them through.

Josh Johnson: Yeah. Force multiplication, right?

Chris Spencer: Yeah.

Josh Johnson: The more veterans we can get into the workspace, into those positions where they, they've got a good level of influence and they can make everyone around them better. The better every organization is going to be. Take the good from the Army. None of the hey, show up 15 minutes before the 15 minute mark. Uh, but all of the good, it's what we do and it's good, man. I've got 330 fellows in the program right now. We've got 700 and I think 745, 746 alumni through the process last year, uh, we helped transition 163 fellows, uh, with some good average salaries. So putting uh, people into the right roles that are commensurate with their experience and desire. So it's a good program, It's a good team.

Chris Spencer: Yeah, no, it sounds like it. And I, I really like how for me at least of the many things and the value. But the, the one thing that stands out is being able to help them land on their worth and be able to explain that. Um, because that, that's hard. Uh, as we know, it's. You're supposed to know, you're supposed to read my mind, look at my resume. Yeah, but I like that.

Josh Johnson: Why wouldn't you want to hire? Yeah, I don't even know what that means. Oh, okay.

Chris Spencer: Let me explain that once you call me when you do, I'll be over here. Well, thank you, Josh. Thank you so much. What, you know, and I'll put the, the details in the, in the podcast description, but how do they, how do they find this information? Anybody willing to learn more?

Josh Johnson: Yeah, so, uh, if you go to sotif.org uh sotf.org uh, there's multiple ways in the website that you can help out if you're interested in supporting it. We're a non profit 501c3, so we live and die off of, uh, donations. Uh, if, if this is something that, that you think you'd like to get behind, there's definitely a place to do that. But there's also how do I get involved? And I am always looking for mentors for the fellows. If I get somebody that's working at Oracle, and they're doing marketing or logistics or, you know, whatever, and they're like, hey, I, I, I think I could be of benefit. Uh, there's a place to sign up to be a mentor. We'll have a conversation. We'll figure out, hey, how do we, how do we start plugging, uh, plugging you into people that are interested in doing the thing that you've become an expert at.

Chris Spencer: Got it. And if they have specific questions, they contact you, or is there another place,

Josh Johnson: by all means, come directly to me. It's, uh, Josh, sotif.org and yeah, I'd love to have a conversation.

Chris Spencer: Got it. All right. Any, any final words you want to share with anybody listening that you want them to know?

Josh Johnson: Yeah, you know, we, we touched on it earlier. Uh, we, we actually went into it pretty in depth. But this is a decision point that is no longer being dictated by somebody else. This is a decision point for you and your family, and you and your family should be actively engaged in this. If you're thinking, hey, this is just me, I got to be the provider for my family, I'll do what I think is right for me, it's probably not going to be the best solution. Have that conversation. You know, what's the most important thing to your wife? Is it making a ton of money? Maybe? Is it being available to, to take the kids to soccer games and, and ballet practice and, you know, all those things. Then, then figure out what that needs to look like. Have a joint discussion about, hey, what does our budget need to, you know, how much money do we need to bring in in order to, to put us where we need to be and then start actively pursuing the things that, as a couple, you have made those decisions. So I think it's so important. I mean, look, transition. You leave in the military, you leave in, uh, all of these things that have been very comfortable, and you and your family are going into a new chapter. If you're not doing that together, there are some friction points headed your way. So start smoothing those friction points out early.

Chris Spencer: Solid. All right, Josh, thank you. Appreciate your time.

Josh Johnson: I appreciate it. Thank you, man.

Chris Spencer: All right, everybody, keep moving forward.