118. Why Referral-Only Is Holding Your Business Back

Speaker A: M welcome to Success by Design where I give you the real talk and a big reality check about you needing to stop treating your business like a hobby. Let's turn it into a profit generating machine, all while doing it in a way that works for your life. I'm Katie Decker Erickson and I am taking what I learned by building a multi million dollar coast to coast design business and sharing it with you right here. If you are wanting to generate more profit and not be burnt out and possibly even have a dream design business, you are in the right.

Speaker B: Hey, hey, hey everybody. Welcome back. This is the design for the Creative Mind podcast and I'm your host, Michelle Lynn.

Speaker C: And I'm Katie Erickson. Don't worry, if you normally log into Success by Design, you're in the right place because we're doing a two for one special talking about all the things today dual podcast.

Speaker B: So. Yes, and actually so today's topic that we just kind of pulled out of our ears recently. So we're winging it today. But that's so much fun because this is stuff that Katie and I both love talking about. And the topic is sales and marketing.

Speaker C: Uh, and marketing that if you're doing it depending on hope and referrals, why that's not the answer. And I mean, we can say we're winging it, but the reality is like, this is like a combined almost half a century of experience of sales and marketing. And I mean, let's be honest, let's

Speaker B: just say it's, it's unscripted. There we go.

Speaker C: There you go. Yeah, because yeah, for sure.

Speaker B: Now, Katie, I want to jump into this real fast because you just mentioned something about if you're relying on referrals. And I got to tell you, like, I used to be envious of the designers that just said, oh yeah, I don't really do anything, I just get referrals. Right. I thought I was doing something wrong. Um, and I've had designers come to me because they're like, oh shit, I don't have any projects.

Speaker C: Mhm.

Speaker B: And I'm like, well, it's because you can do your sales marketing. So I learned that envy was not necessarily warranted.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's an interesting thing. I think there's like this badge of honor in the industry that like, oh, I'm by referral only. And I'm like, well, that's a really crummy pipeline you're building. Right. Like, because when referrals are in, they're in and when they're out, they're out. And unlike a Tide, even, they're not consistent. And so, yeah, it's great to have referrals, but that is not a sales and marketing destination. That's just an add on. But I think that, like, to your point and your story, like, yeah, you're envious of that. Like, I don't. I'm not quite sure where that comes from. Like, I'm so well thought of on by referral only. And I'm like, yeah, but you can't build a P and L and you can't do, like, market projections and decide how much, like, debt load you're willing to take on or what you're going to invest in in your business when you're referral only. And so it's kind of how we

Speaker B: talk, sleep at night if I don't know what my pipeline is.

Speaker C: Right, right. Yeah. I think the thing that keeps me awake. Well, and how has that changed for you over the years? Because, like, eventually did you. There's this thing that psychologists call uncomfortably uncomfortable. We could live uncomfortable for a really long time, but then we hit this threshold called uncomfortably uncomfortable. And that's when change happens. Like, we no longer can handle just being uncomfortable. Like, now we're, um, uncomfortably uncomfortable. So we're going to precipitate the change. Like, when did that happen for you, when it came to referrals and your pipeline?

Speaker B: Well, when I wanted to pay my team if I want to, If I want to make payroll, then my little booty needs to be out there marketing

Speaker C: and keeping that pipeline full.

Speaker B: Because if it's just me that's not going to eat, that's one thing. Hell, uh, I can afford to miss a meal on occasion. Right.

Speaker C: That's a whole other podcast.

Speaker B: But if I'm not going to be able to pay my team, that really sat hard with me.

Speaker C: It's interesting you should say that because my husband sent me the other day. He's like, uh, it was actually this weekend. He goes, you just have complete autonomy. And I lit up like a Christmas tree. I was like, that's hilarious and so cute.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: No, so actually, I don't at all have any autonomy. I have clients depending on me. I have people who aren't gonna go buy groceries without me. Multiple people who are not gonna buy groceries without me. So, like, we should have that conversation of, like, one. I'm not autonomous now. Do I have an immense amount of creative freedom? Yes. I mean, I get what he's saying, but also there's a huge amount of responsibility that comes with it, especially if you're looking to grow to the next level in your business, you just can't do it off of that referral. Let's talk about next level. Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker B: I think next level is designed differently for all of us, but I think that if you just want to have a sustainable business m and not a hobby, or as you call it, a

Speaker C: jobby, a jobby feels like it's a job. But when we look at payroll and we start looking at our p. L, it's starting to feel more like a hobby because we didn't really take home anything last year or we did is nominal. Yeah. Yeah. More loss than profit. Well, yeah, And I love what. I love that point that, uh, like, it's different for everybody what it looks like. But, like, the sustainable word to me is really, really important, especially as I get into middle age, comfortably, uncomfortably seated, uh, what sometimes looks so sexy and exciting? As you grow in your business and you want to grow your business, you want to push, push, push. Sometimes it's just like, we just have to write the ship and study what we've got and build a model that allows it to feel good. Not just next week, but, like, next month, next year. Like, what gets us to a retirement age. That becomes a whole different conversation.

Speaker B: Well, let's talk about, like, what does your sales and marketing look like?

Speaker C: What is what.

Speaker B: What does your sales and marketing look like? Like, what is your process?

Speaker C: Oh, it's a great question. We have a. It's a machine. I'm not going to lie. Anyone who says sales and marketing is highly creative, I'm like, maybe. But, like, really, I think it's just like, feed the beast. Because it is an immense amount of blogs, website updates, platform updates. Gosh, a great marketing campaign.

Speaker B: How often are you writing your blog?

Speaker C: Once a week.

Speaker B: Are you doing. So you're doing four a month?

Speaker C: Uh-huh. Or if it's a five week month, then we do five. But yeah, I think it's important. And it's not always. I think this is a key point. It's not always that we're saying something brand new and exciting. It's repackaging a lot of what we have said and have said historically, because different things hit with different people. But when we get in, just say

Speaker B: it again at different times.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Like, I. I know that I'll hear something, you know, on a Thursday, and then I don't hear it again for another year or two. And that's when it actually, like, permeates my. My brain.

Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah, I totally feel that it's where you're at because you're on the receiver end. Right. Like, are you picking up what I'm putting down? I don't know, maybe you're having a bad day and you need it on that Thursday instead of, say, on a Tuesday.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker C: But I think sometimes we think, oh, my gosh, I gotta come up with the most creative content. Or I've got to come up with, like, riveting real, or I've got to come up with, I don't know. I think it's easy. Now you do really, really, really good social media, Michelle. Like, where do you. What's your process like?

Speaker B: So Hallie and I work together for both ML Interiors Group as well as the Bakehouse, which is kind of rebranding little by little. But let's just talk about ML Interiors Group, because that's where our audience is. Hmm. We write the blog, so we're writing one a month, and then we're writing a second one just for SEO. But the first one we're writing, we're taking that and we're breaking it down into social media. Pinterest, what else are we doing? And then it goes into our newsletter. And then we also have standard, nurture, evergreen type of email marketing.

Speaker C: Yeah. And your newsletter, your blog, I mean, mine are the same thing.

Speaker B: So we send out a newsletter from the studio once a month. And it will, it will, uh, it will point back to the blog. So I have enough email going out on the regular that I'm not. And it's not something that I'm opposed to. It's just something that I'm not doing right now. I teach. You can take your blog and send that as a newsletter in addition to your newsletter, which I believe I do that for the bakehouse side, my coaching side. But, uh, yeah. And Pinterest girl. Pinterest has been really impactful in regards to getting, uh, people on, on the phone. Like, they'll click through that pin and contact us.

Speaker C: That's interesting.

Speaker B: Well, you know, Pinterest is a search engine, not a social media.

Speaker C: That's a key point right there.

Speaker B: Yeah. So just by taking your blog content and creating three or four pins just from that blog creates content, and we're just looking to solve problems. That's what marketing is. Did you know, as a marketing major back in, like, 1902, love that.

Speaker C: I love that because. Well, it's so true. You are looking to solve problems. I always say it's about knowing the needs and the wants of your end user and you just scaffold out of that.

Speaker B: That's, that's, that's the definition of marketing. It's like finding out what the client's problem is and learning how to solve it. Right.

Speaker C: And it doesn't require, I think like the, the greatest point you just made. It's not about recreating all the content all the time. It's repurposing the content you've already created. You do something really well, you do it consistently, I think as designers. Let's go back to where we started, referral. Right. So we're referral based. We're really, really proud of that, even though we shouldn't be. We had a lull, we're like, uh, oh gosh, we should probably do some marketing. So we have a knee jerk reaction and all of a sudden there's three posts.

Speaker B: Woo.

Speaker C: We got three posts, then, then all of a sudden we got some people in our pipeline. They were like, nevermind, forget marketing. I'm um, back to referral only. And it's just like being on a really bad roller coaster, not just for you, but also for your client base. So like one minute she's there, the next minute she's not.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And right now one of the things. So I, I, I've worn a few hats in my lifetime. Prior to getting into design, I was, uh, an area director for a recruiting firm. I used to place accounting and financial professionals on projects. But my main like as area director, basically I'm a sales manager. Okay, so that was way back in the day. You had to touch your prospects. Not literally. Just for the record. Not literally. I wasn't going out and touching people.

Speaker C: Um,

Speaker B: different.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Anyway, that's another podcast, but they had to hear from you six or seven times before they would consider buying. Now it's like people have to hear from you twice that amount from multiple channels. And the reason why is not because they trust us any less, although there is an argument for that. But it's because we are all so inundated with information that it's hard to sort through it. So the consistency aspect, you know, we use sidemark, we pre plan our blog, we preplan our social media. So it's not like you have to get creative on a Tuesday for your Tuesday afternoon post. Like, you think about it, you can create it. And heck, these days with chat GPT, Chatty G can help you framework your post. Don't let her write it for y', all because people can tell. But she, she helps us frame it out. We put it into my voice and then that's what we post. And it's consistent. We can get the whole month done of posts from that one blog. Well, actually it's not the whole month, but we can pre plan all of them and then we're pre planning everything in between. Sidemark does pins too. Did you know Sidemark does pins.

Speaker C: I love that. Yeah, I absolutely love that. Yeah. Or go pin.

Speaker B: Claude.

Speaker C: I'm. I'm on a, like, love hate relationship with Chat right now because of their paper tokens when you're already a member. And, uh, I don't know, I'm not loving.

Speaker B: I don't have any tokens for Chatty and I'm paid. Interesting. Claude. On the other hand, sometimes she'll tell me, sorry, I'm taking a time out.

Speaker C: Well, don't you wish we all could do that? I mean, my God, are you supposed to be the robot that doesn't need sick days or vacation days? Like, come on now. Uh, just saying. I think this is interesting too, because yes, you bring up a really good point. It has to be in your voice, it has to be sincere, but it also the value of building your own email marketing list. And it kills me how many designers I coach don't have. They're like, well, I'm on Instagram and I'm like, great.

Speaker B: If Mark Zuckerberg burps and decides he wants to take Meta down, we're hosed 100%.

Speaker C: Like, you don't get access to their email addresses, you don't have their content. So the more data capture you can do off your website, which is one of the things I love. Like, I mean, this is why Sidemark is Sidemark, right? That's why we build Sidemark because we wanted a company, the dead it that was by designers for designers. And like, that data should be getting captured when people and prospective clients come to your site because then you own that data and no one can take that from you. And then your newsletter, it goes directly to their inbox. And instead of like a little one off poll on Instagram that likely doesn't convert, now, it does get you those exposure points like you're talking about Michelle, which I think are really important. But, like, as far as, like being a subject matter expert, where I'm going to take my like 3 million, 10 million, $20 million home and be like, here, can you make it beautiful based on your Instagram?

Speaker B: Or say it again based on your Instagram posts, I want to hire you.

Speaker C: Right? Yeah. I'm like, it's so much more meaningful when it shows up in your inbox and they expertise on.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Because you can prove to them that you are a trusted authority. But that. Katie, you can't do just email marketing.

Speaker C: No.

Speaker B: How are you going to get people to your website? You can't do just social media. Like, this is. This is compounding. And let's go back to search co. Like when I, when I built my first website and yes, I did, I built it on GoDaddy.

Speaker C: I love it. Way back in the day.

Speaker B: Way back in the day. And then I didn't know what SEO was. I thought it just happened. So being aware of the fact that you can do those little nuances, uh, of just say, let's just talk about naming your photographs that you upload into your portfolio. So instead of123.jpg it should be, you know, beautiful purple velvet or purple velvet Chesterfield. So that becomes searchable. I had no idea about that. Or the alt text. This is, you know, living room with purple velvet chesterfield. So if somebody wants to find a purple velvet chesterfield, you're likely going to come up in their search if you stack it enough.

Speaker C: No, I think it's so, uh, little things like that, if you don't want to do them, then go hire a company like Sidemark to do it for you. Totally great. But, like, those things all matter. I mean, to your point, it really is about building out the entire burger. You can't just start with the bun and the flop, which is kind of what I look at Instagram as. You got to have it. Because nobody really likes a cartridge burger unless you're crazy, right? You've got to have the meat too, which is like, unless you're vegetarian. Marketing content, like, it's beefier, literally. Right? Like it establishes you. But you gotta have a little bit of, like, the fun and acidity in there, too. Of like a good mustard. Like, throw some Facebook in there for some fun, get some SEO. Maybe there's like the hidden Worcestershire in your bun and you're like, what is that, Katie? Yeah, that's your SEO. Nobody sees it. You're like, this is really nice. Right? Like it all. You're making me hungry. Burger. Yeah, we're going to go to lunch after this, Michelle.

Speaker B: But you're right. Having, uh, the Worcestershire in the burger makes all the difference. And nobody knows it's in there because it's working behind the scenes.

Speaker C: Which is really what your marketing should be doing back to Feed the Beast. Like, it should be something that is a churn. You do have to feed the Beast it's not revolutionary, it's not rock and science. It has to be consistent. It should be there in the background. But like my, One of my other biggest pet peeves next to we're a referral only, um, based business is we're running low on money. So I'm going to cut marketing first. And I'm just always like, can't be backwards. Do you like oxygen? When the plane is at 37,000ft, the first thing you do is put on your own oxygen mask. Your business should be running the exact same way and instead it's like you take it off because you're like, well, I don't know, it's costing money.

Speaker B: I'm like, that's a, that's a huge pain point. I've made that mistake when I was younger as well. And it's when you sit down and think about it, or like you just saying it out loud, it's like, oh, yeah, duh. Or, or I can do it myself. So I'm, I go back and forth as to like, how much of this do I do? How much of it do I outsource? I've outsourced it a few times and it just never had my essence. I love it myself and I just think, you know, that's kind of below my pay grade, so finding that in between. So right now Hallie's doing mine for me and she knows me well enough and she's so entrenched in all of my businesses, it makes sense. But eventually she's not going to have the bandwidth because we're putting her all over the place these days.

Speaker C: We like Hal, we really do. You know, we talk ads while we're having this conversation because that comes up,

Speaker B: you know, we just started running ads again.

Speaker C: Tell me more.

Speaker B: So for ML Interiors Group, uh, I'm re. I don't want to say rebuilding it, but for a few years it did not get much of my attention. I've, um, kind of refreshed and regenerated and putting, um, more attention to it, looking to grow it again. And yeah, we, we're, we're running meta ads and I ran them. So this is all through Sidemark. And so when Sidemark, when we first started offering paid ads, was like, let me be the guinea pig. And we ran them and I got some business. Right. Yeah, you know, you kind of have to eat your own dog food. So let's see how this works. And then we've tweaked it and we've learned and they. There's this new thing that you can search by intent and things along that line. And so I've signed back up and we're. Holy crap. I've got a, um, I've got a meet and greet tomorrow for a whole house furnishing. I did one on Thursday. Uh, they are just starting to look for. It's like a 4 million new custom home. So like the clients that are being attracted through ads. I mean it. One project will pay for my ad budget and the service fee associated with it. It's a no brainer.

Speaker C: It's a no brainer. When I talk about roi, we're good for the rest of the year. Thank you very much.

Speaker B: Absolutely, absolutely. So will I run it all the time? I might. You know, just so that we can be picky and choosy. Like I love to be able to say, sorry, that project's not big enough for us.

Speaker C: Yeah. Or, or just saying I don't like that client. Like I just don't. Whatever it is, like there's something about

Speaker B: them that just doesn't feel like. Mhm.

Speaker C: Yeah. Get reached out on email. It was two weeks ago. They're kind of pushy. Like, hey, we want to get on our calendar. My portfolio is growing, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, great. Here's where to go to book. Well, for some reason link isn't working and ah, I really just want to meet with you today.

Speaker B: Yeah, because I'm not doing anything else.

Speaker C: Right. And so I'm like, no. And I'm like, okay, well try instead of. I have a hyperlink in the email. So I gave them the direct URL. It could be copy to paste. Uh, and I was like, try this instead. This is my availability. Healthy boundaries. Like, we're all in business here. We're not saving lives, thank God. And like they're like, I just don't understand why I just can't meet with you today. And I'm like, y', all, I'd had a day. So literally I responded back, I'm like, you know, if we're having difficulty booking through our calendar, you're probably not going to be a good fit for us as a client. But we wish you all the best.

Speaker B: There you go. Uh, that's such a good feeling.

Speaker C: Such a good feeling. I was like, you're a dumpster fire. And no, I am not ready to get in my little leotard and climb in. Like, no, that's not. Years ago that would have happened. And now I'm like, oh no, see, I'm gonna go pour a glass of wine and I'm just gonna walk away slowly.

Speaker B: But that, uh, and, and so for the listeners, I think it's just so important that everybody has like different goals and different intents, but we all have bound. Well, we all should have boundaries. And by having enough business in the pipeline, you to hold those boundaries so much easier.

Speaker A: All right, interior designers, let me ask you something. And you've heard me say it before. You've built the firm, but are you still busy being the firm? Well, on Monday, August 24th, I'm teaming up with Michelle, Lynn and Dallas for the art of being the principal be in the room. It is a one day immersive for established design firm owners who are ready to stop carrying every detail and start leading at the principal level. We're going to dive into sales, operations, procurement, financials, and real decisions that create a profitable, sustainable design firm. There are only 30 seats. No replay, no virtual ticket. This is about your business working for you rather than you working for it. Come be in the room with us. Register@my sidemark.com room. Again, that's mysidemark.com room. We'll see you there.

Speaker B: I mean, Katie, I. You've heard me talk about this. It reminds me of when I was dating. Right. Here I am, I'm lonely. Everybody's getting married, popping kids out. Um, and here's Michelle, like 30 something years old going. And I dated the wrong guys because they were.

Speaker C: Because I was lonely.

Speaker B: Right. And, and I didn't have the same level of qualifications.

Speaker C: Sure.

Speaker B: That I would have if I, I don't know, had had some boundaries. Like for the record, I was not sleeping with them all. Okay. Just for the record, welcome to that.

Speaker C: Thank you for volunteering.

Speaker B: We'll see if that gets edited, but

Speaker C: uh, oh my gosh, I'm cracking up right now.

Speaker B: No, but think about it. It's the same thing.

Speaker C: It is. It's the exact same thing. And running your business, I also think is a lot like marriage and that you change over time.

Speaker B: The.

Speaker C: Your partner changes over time. How you choose to dance with each other changes over time. Like be open to that. And the business that you maybe envisioned starting way back in the day has really changed now. I mean, I think of a sweet woman I met when we lived in Oklahoma, Amy. And she had two little girls. And her husband said to her, I really want to try for a boy. She's like, okay, long story short, Amy got pretty pregnant with identical triplet boys. It's an anomaly. It's not. Not all naturally, because you can't do identicals Right. Via IVF or anything. I mean, like, literally.

Speaker B: She literally.

Speaker C: Which is astounding to me. Her doctor's like, please go buy a lottery ticket, Amy, because it's like one in a trillion odds that you're getting identical triplet boys. So she went from two kids to five. Not the life she envisioned. It was a hard reset. There are just things that happen in life that, like, maybe what you started out thinking you were going to build has changed. And really your marketing strategy and your sales strategy should be adapting to that again. It's like scaffolding out of, uh, where you want to be and saying, okay, I need to turn on the drip a little bit. Or in your case, like, I'm really ramping up business. I want to turn on the drip a lot. Like, where do you want to be? And then build your strategy accordingly so that you can make payroll, like you said.

Speaker B: Yeah. Little details like paying ourselves. Was it Ken? What book was it? I'm looking over my shoulder.

Speaker C: Say it again.

Speaker B: There's a book that I remember reading way back in the day, and it's begin with the end in mind. So. But where I got hung up, Katie, and I think that this is possibly not universal, but a lot of people can relate to it, is that I was like beginning with the end in mind. Like, what's 20 years from now? Okay, well, let's, let's, let's dial that back in. Let's have a one, three and five year old plan.

Speaker C: I love that.

Speaker B: And then from there you can do your mapping and your scaffolding to your, to your vernacular, uh, and, and building

Speaker C: it like for your. Say it again.

Speaker B: And you can adjust.

Speaker C: Yes. That's why you did it in the first place. Right. So you could adjust and weave your personal life into that. If you know in three years you want to have a baby, crush it for three years and then go try having a baby like, or three. True story. Right? Like, but weave it into your life. Don't just make it like, successful to the outside world. When I hit this metric at, uh, year two and at year three and a year four, and I have year over year growth that marks this X. Like, it's so much more complicated than that. And I think that's why, like, I don't know, I love one on one coaching because it is so unique to where you're at once you're not a baby designer anymore. Once you're growing and you're like, okay, I have some pretty basics. Like, the basics are down. It's like what are we doing out here again? Why are we doing it? Where do we want to be? And then how do we build our life around that?

Speaker B: Well, that and I think that there are some designers that I've had the pleasure of coaching that just got so busy. Yeah, we're making money, but a lot of it was just by the grace of God. And then had to circle back and start putting those processes into place. I'm working with one girl right now. She and her team are freaking fabulous.

Speaker C: Love it.

Speaker B: And they have been so busy that they finally got a break in their schedule and now they're going back and taking a look at their sales and marketing, their pricing, their processes. So as they have become more successful, their clients have become more successful, their business becomes more successful. Like, you have to, um. It's like a stair staircase.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you can't go from the first floor to the third floor, you know, in the beat of a heart. You have to, you have to, you have to put the first floor out before the second floor, before the third floor and continue your growth on what you've learned before.

Speaker C: 100%. I also think you get a really good analogy that sometimes you have to deal the airplane while you're flying it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Whenever you say that, it scares the shit out of me. And then I'm like, okay, she's right. She's totally right. Sorry if you kids in the car for the summer. But because it is, it's like sometimes it's like, like in an ideal world, there would be like this downtime and I would spend like a week long retreat refreshing my templates and making my. And sometimes it's just like, okay, I got a glass of wine, the kids are watching a show, and I have one hour to get through this. Let's go. Right and done.

Speaker B: Uh, better than perfect too.

Speaker C: Yeah. It's not always like, sometimes I think too, we idealize. Like if I could do, if I had this perfect amount of time, I would do. And sometimes I'm like, no, we, sometimes even my company, I mean, on the, my firm side, there's times we're building the airplane while we're flying it. But I'm like, no, hold on just a sec. We're redoing that now. Like, what are we doing out here? You know? Or someone on the team will be like, are we. And I'm like, no, we're not going to be doing that. No, we need a new system and process for that, folks. You know, but that takes courage too, to create a culture where that's acceptable. And also the. If you're in this as a solopreneur or you just have a small staff, you know, it takes a lot of self motivation and honesty and reflection to be able to be like, nope, we're going to do it different. Like we're not going to be proud to be a referral only based business anymore. Like, I admire that. That's gutsy.

Speaker B: That is gutsy. But I also want to give permission to anybody who's listening to know that it's not going to turn on a dime. You can build the processes while you're still working those referrals. And part of it also is like this. What is your sales process like? Do you have a standard operating procedure for sales? And I think that oftentimes like having been in the sales capacity prior to coming into this, I look at it from that perspective versus just. But I didn't always. I just oftentimes I just went off of instinct thinking that this was the way I was supposed to do it and fell flat on my booty. So I sat back and revised and created that sales process. So in that regard, don't feel like you have to have it all figured out.

Speaker C: Did that make sense?

Speaker B: It made sense in my head.

Speaker C: Yeah. It completes us. I think this, I actually was reflecting on that because I think it's such a beautiful point of like the definition like you look at like Baldrige principles of business, like the definition of a good business is agility.

Speaker B: I have no idea what Baldrige principles is.

Speaker C: Oh, it's great. It's like the, the, the way businesses should be running at their very soul. Right?

Speaker B: Does our mba, our resident mba.

Speaker C: I'm just going to get out of here. You can DM me all your complaints about the geekiness over here. I'm here to hear matters because they all drew, right? Like your business should be agile enough to allow you to be able to make those twists and take those turns and say I want to do this differently or this isn't working or build a better process or I think sometimes we think like if I had the perfect process, it would never need to be adjusted. I'm like, that's a lie. A good. First of all, there is no perfect process. Right.

Speaker B: I don't know.

Speaker C: Pretty good. There could be really good processes. Yeah, but like you're going to change it over time, right? Like in some way it's going to more as your client base morphs, maybe as you more uh, I don't know. I just still come back to Maybe this is, again, stated comfortably in middle age. But, like, I always come back to 80, 20, like, 80% of it should be there, but then 20% of it should be adaptable for you, for the client. Maybe that's the installer, or maybe it's like, there has to be that agility.

Speaker B: 100% agree with you. And a lot of it, I think, is because if we're not growing either as. Or not either, but as an individual and as a company, then we're dying. So there's always room for improvements. I mean, seriously, look around your house. Are there projects that you want to do around your house? It's the same thing with my business. There's projects that I want to get to, but am I going to be able to go out and buy curtains for the 14 windows that I have in this front area of my house now? I'm gonna have to plan for it, I'm gonna have to save for it. I'm gonna have to, you know, schedule it and all the things. It's the same thing with business. And you know what else? Like, I. Like I can sit here and I look, we've been in this house for two years. Do I want patterned, Do I want sheer? Do I want solid? Like, what do I really want? And I also want some blinds underneath them. So I'm gonna have to save a little bit longer for that. It's the same thing for business.

Speaker C: So really great way to put it.

Speaker B: We get so tied up thinking it's supposed to be something it's not. You just need to keep growing.

Speaker C: Do you keep growing toward what you want to grow toward? Whether it's you want to scale bigger, whether you want more autonomy and the ability to go away on vacation, whether you want to sell your business in five years, you want to go back to part time? I mean, I think that's the fun of what we get to do as coaches is, like, we get to help people figure out what is that goal? And then how do we get there? And it's not just making more money all the time. Like, I get so tired of that too. I'm like, okay, yes, you have to make money. Yes, you have to feed people. It's so much more than that. That's the vibe of a good sales program. That's the byproduct of good process.

Speaker B: So I just wrote this on my whiteboard. It says, luxury is. And this is for me. Like, this is for me because I'm at the place right now where, like, I have everything I want.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: I'm very content, and I love that. Me too. I'm very grateful for it. But then I get frustrated because I'm like, okay, well, what do I.

Speaker C: What.

Speaker B: What's my. Why? At this point, it says, luxury is time to think, read, wander, and romanticize my life. I mean, doesn't that sound like a damn good reason to run a tight business so that you have time to think, read, wander, and romanticize your life?

Speaker C: That is beautiful. Because at this life stage, that's what I want to do. I don't want to work harder. I want to work smarter. And I should have, after 20 years, enough to buttress and allow for luxurious experience. There should be enough there to read the book. And I'm just thinking of the book I just finished over the weekend that had. Was on my nightstand. Maybe went on two trips with me before I ever got through it.

Speaker B: Yeah. What was it?

Speaker C: Praise God, we got through that. Oh, it's so, so good. It was, uh, mini grata because of the sex. Okay. It's called the other side of change. Who we become when life makes other plans. And I really love it. The woman is incredible. Who wrote this and what she's been through in her journey. But she profiles all these different people. It comes highly referred by Brene Brown and Mel, uh, Robbins. And when she just talks about change in life, the life is filled with change. And so much of it is how you respond to that change and what that looks like for you. Um, and figuring out how to embrace it and grow with it would sound like kind of cheesy in some ways, but it's not. It can be fricking hard when you didn't choose to change, and maybe the change chose you. And now here you are, and you're like, what do I do with that? Or having the courage to make the change that you know you want to make, but maybe you're just not sure how yet. Like you said, defining luxury. Right. Like, that is a beautiful way to describe life. Now how do we really do that and have the courage to do that?

Speaker B: Um, I don't know.

Speaker C: I think that's great. I. I love that definition that you came up with. But you imagine just so hands. That didn't come to you overnight. And it came to you because you had margin and you had space to be able to think through. What does luxury really look like to me at this stage of life?

Speaker B: Yeah. Because I think that oftentimes we all. I mean, I'm guilty of it. I look to my peers. What does she do? Like, oh, she's got a lake house. She's. She's jaunting around in South Africa. Oh, la la. You know what, Katie? I don't want to travel that much anymore. I love being home.

Speaker C: I really hilarious. When you said jogging around South Africa, I'm like, isn't Ebola a problem on that continent right now? Like, I don't want to leave home.

Speaker B: Well, I think it was a pretty well guided safari, but yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: So it's, uh, Yeah, I got that out of my system when I was younger. I mean, sure would I like to travel. There are some places that I want to go when my kid gets a little bit older and she can appreciate it. But at the same time, I would much rather, you know, take a road trip in our car. So what does that look like? I think just being okay with that and not comparing myself to others.

Speaker C: I absolutely love that because, you know, in our industry, we get a couple weeks at Christmas. Like, our world shuts down and it's quiet, it's peaceful. It's the only time of year when I feel like, okay, I could really, really check out because, uh, I'm just really conscientious. I have a great team. I don't have to. It's a personality disorder, folks. Straight up. And so I was saying to my husband, I'm like, okay, are we going back to Hawaii at Christmas? Like, this would be so great. And da, da, da, da. Long story short, you know what the kids want? They want to stay at home Christmas. You know how excited I am about a stay at home Christmas? Yeah, negative zero. You're not excited? No, I don't want to stay home at Christmas. I want to go somewhere warm, I don't know, somewhere that's 85 degrees unblock in December. Like, that's what I want to do and where I want to go. And then, you know, it was to your point, which is such a good one. He's just like, yeah, we could go spend the money and we could do it. Wouldn't be the end of the world. But he's like, if the kids just want to stay home, would you rather just, like, do it later? And I'm like, well, yeah, you're right. But not really. No, but I'll get there. So, long, uh, story.

Speaker B: Sorry.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, the point about contentment is so well made because, like, especially when you have kids and you're in this life stage. And sometimes I feel like you see the people on Instagram who like, yes, in our peer group who are doing amazing Products, they're taking their kids on safari. I'm like, my kids don't even have probably all the record shots to go on like safari, right? I'm pretty sure they don't. But yeah, it's such a good reminder too of like, what is your happy place and how do you build from that?

Speaker B: And it's not by referral only.

Speaker C: Not by referral only. Not if you want to keep it consistent, to use your term, which is so great and sustainable. If you want consistent, sustainable. If you want to be able to have the luxury of reading the book and having the time and taking the slow walks and just feeling the sun on your face, that, that becomes a big reality when you have a consistent machine in the background that's feeding you.

Speaker B: Well, that. And also if something does, you know, referring back to your book, if something comes and knocks you out of left field, are you able to, are you able to navigate that? You know, even just financially sometimes, if you were to get sick, are, are you. Do you have processes in place that your business can run without you? Yeah, details along that line goes past sales and marketing, but circling back to sales and marketing. And I want to talk uh, about Sidemark, because we run our business on Sidemark and our, our.

Speaker C: Our.

Speaker B: My. My sales process is organized and automated in Sidemark, so when people set up certain appointments, it automatically triggers different confirmation emails and it has links to what like the questionnaires. That's formed as a survey in Sidemark so that all of that content lives under their. Under their contact. So sales, marketing. We do our, we do our social media planned all through social market social media all through Sidemark, our blogs. Hallie writes the blogs and everything goes into. Well, actually she writes the blogs on a. We, uh, don't have our website on there because I had my website done before we created Sidemark. But if you're on Sidemark, you can have your website and it can all be tied together. So my point is, is that when you can streamline it and make it easier, you're not trying to patch. And our calendar's on Sidemark, so we don't have to patch calendly with social media like whatever format to mailchimp. And then we can also we get our documents signed through it. So it's so consolidated that I don't feel as scattered all over the place too. So just finding what works for you. I mean, if I would have had this 10 years ago, I, uh, mean holy cow, that and happy.

Speaker C: I think that's such a key point because like, there's so many softwares that are built for designers, but I'm like, was it really built by a designer? Yeah, we would never do it that way, actually. Or that's not how it really goes when you're in the trenches. And so, yeah. To have everything consolidated in a single place.

Speaker B: Uh-huh.

Speaker C: And then have a process. It's not like you're reinventing the wheel every month, having a heart attack on Tuesday, that you need that riveting post. Like, it's just structured and ordered. And then what I think is the greatest benefit and get you back to doing what you love. So if you really love doing the creative part of your business, if you love sourcing, if you love space planning, whatever it is, you're back doing that. Any more projects coming in to do that too? As opposed to just having knee jerk reactions of, uh, boy, not sure we're going to make payroll this month. Like, that's just a very different conversation.

Speaker B: Yeah. And that's a. You know what? I spend more money covering the gray in my hair. So, Katie, let's, uh, let's talk about our event in August.

Speaker C: Yes. I'm, um, super excited if you've been listening to either Michelle or I show for the last, I don't know, we've been on each other's shifts. We have a lot of fun together. A ton of fun together. I love this girl. The reality is that there's an immense amount of knowledge that she brings to the table that we want to share with you. And so we thought, if we enjoy hanging out this much together in a virtual format, imagine what we could do if we were in the same room. And then we thought we should invite the people that we really love, that faithfully are listening to our show, are coming to us for coaching and who really want to get to the next level in their business. And so we did it. We booked a day in August.

Speaker B: The contract has been signed.

Speaker C: Say it again.

Speaker B: The contract has been signed.

Speaker C: The contract has been signed. We're doing it. It's August 24th and we want to invite you to come into, uh, the room, as we're calling it. It's all about the art of being the principal in your business. And we're not doing this digitally. We're not going to sell virtual tickets. Like, you literally have to have your derriere in the seat because we're just going to have the live conversation about this. What else are we talking about, Michelle?

Speaker B: So we are talking about sales and marketing, operations and financials. The three Pillars. And it's going to be. A lot of you guys probably know me as the coach that I love. Baby designers. Right. This is not for baby designers. This is truly for individuals. I would say 300,000 or up, maybe 150,000 and up if you've got that revenue. Because you're going to be able to afford to take a day off and, hell, go to Dallas Market center the next day and walk around and see what you've got going on there. But it's going to be. We've got workbooks, we've got exercises, we've got all sorts of talking points that I really, really encourage you to consider investing in the time and the trip. And it's a badass hotel, too, if you're coming from out of town.

Speaker C: There you go. Yeah. And you get Michelle and I. I mean, for a full day. And we do. And we do a welcome cocktail hour, don't we? Don't we get a cocktail?

Speaker B: Yes. So the night before, we are going to have a welcome reception as people are checking in. And then the next day, we've got all sorts of fun stuff and fun little sussies. But I'm not gonna say more about that.

Speaker C: No, they're really good. And I think, like, the fact that you get both of us in the same room for a whole day, and, uh, we really care about seeing you succeed. So when we were thinking about the content of what do we really drop into this full day? It was really based on the core elements. Like, if you don't have one, you're gonna fail. Like, as we've discussed today, if you don't have a sales and marketing process,

Speaker B: you're not gonna have any financials. If you don't have sales and marketing, you're not going to have any financials.

Speaker C: Yeah. And if you don't have a process, you're probably not going to have consistent sales and marketing.

Speaker B: Uh-huh.

Speaker C: If you don't know your financials, you can't pay for your consistent sales and marketing. Like, there's a synergy between these three concepts. We're going to unpack them and teach you how to actually do it so that you're not just left looking your bookkeeper at the end of the year and going, I owe how much in taxes? Come again? Or the end of the quarter. So you're going to. We're going to teach you to understand so you can draw.

Speaker B: I've done that.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: The worst thing. Yes. So nonetheless, y', all, I hope you can make it to Dallas. We'll make sure that the link is in the show notes. But if you don't want to wait, you can go to mysidemark.com forward slash room.

Speaker C: Yes. Come join us. We would love to love to see you, especially to our faithful audience. Like, you guys are great. We would love to be able to say hi and like, look you in the eye.

Speaker B: Well, and here's what we say in the South. I just look forward to hugging your neck.

Speaker C: Yeah, hug around the neck.

Speaker B: Is there anything else we want to leave with the audience?

Speaker C: No, I think this is really. We're, we're just coming back to that idea again. It's the one I always talk to my audience about, but it's really getting your business to work for you rather than you working for it. And this is the how. These are the actionable steps in the how of how to get there.

Speaker B: Agreed. All right. Well, honey, it was good to see you again.

Speaker C: You too.

Speaker A: That's your real talk for today. If you found this helpful and you are ready to truly move the needle in your design business, head over to fixmydesignbiz.com and let's get started. That's FixMyDesign Biz with a Z dot com. And if you want to stay connected, head over to my Instagram @successbydesigncoachpodcast and

Speaker C: give me a follow.

Speaker A: Don't forget to mention you came from the podcast because I would love to meet you and I personally respond to every dm. Until next time, take care.