How to Build Mental Toughness and Resilience | James Golding Cancer Survivor, Endurance Cyclist & World Record Holder

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Speaker B: Various 18/ hello and welcome back to the Market Maker podcast. And today's guest is James Golding, an endurance cyclist who has pushed the limits of human performance through some of the world's toughest challenges. But this isn't really a conversation about cycling, although I'm sure we will touch upon this a lot. It's about a critical skill or characteristic I, uh, hear time and time again from the employers we work with and that is resilience. So whether you're preparing for interviews, working long hours in competitive jobs, managing risks on a trading desk, or just building a career, success often comes down to your ability to stay calm under pressure, recover from setbacks and keep moving forward one step at a time. And today we're going to unpack exactly how James trains his mind, manages adversity and maintains performance over the long term. And this conversation really came about through. I've known you, James, for a while, but you popped into our office unexpectedly a few weeks back and gave the most incredible five minute motivational speech to a group of young people. Just had to get you on the show. So how are you, James?

Speaker C: Yeah, well, it was an impromptu popping and it just felt right to offer to do something. And I've had um, some fantastic comments from some of the guys in the room since then. So thank you for that and thank you for having me now.

Speaker B: Ah, yeah, ah, absolute pleasure. And maybe we could start with getting to know you a little bit better. Who is James Golding?

Speaker C: Um, that's an interesting question and it's a question that I always struggle with a little bit. Um, ultimately I'm an inspirational speaker, I'm a two time cancer survivor, um, slowly coming towards and fighting, coming towards the end of my kind of endurance cycling days. Um, I love it. But they are becoming fewer and less, um, but there's a whole lot more to it than, than kind of than just those things really. I, I started my, my working career in property and investment. I worked for a very, very high, uh, level estate agents, um, in the Midlands, was top performer there for, for a number of years, top valuer, um, and then Moved over into uh, investment property, land and development and worked with a number of, um, kind of the big nationals. Worked with them. I didn't work for them. I would essentially find developments or they would come to me with developments and we'd look at how we could maximize the investment within those. Um, and then also, um, in the, it's frowned upon a little bit more nowadays. But um, the kind of, the rental market, we would buy blocks of apartments and houses, um, and then sell them onto investment groups who would then rent them out. So that was, I mean that was to 20, that was 2007, 2008. Um, and then shortly after I was diagnosed with cancer. And to be honest, my whole life changed at that point. Um, and from my first diagnosis was in November 2008. By February 2009, I'd gone from 14 stone to 6. Um, I'd lost the ability to walk. I had less than 5% chance of survival and was rushed into Emergency surgery on the 24th of February, February 2009. Kept in an induced coma and as I say, had to relearn how to walk and do everything off the back of that. And that was just a kind of a, that was I suppose, the start of a change really. Um, there were a number of factors coming out of hospital of realizing there were certain things I didn't like about my life before that had happened. Um, there were certain, arguably I've said publicly, you know, if I met me prior to having cancer, I probably wouldn't like me. Um, it was a, it was a different world that I, that we lived in. It was very high pace, it was very numbers orientated, it was very work, very, very hard. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday night you'd go out Friday night, you'd go out Saturday night, you'd go out Sunday with remorse, and then we'd do it all again on a Monday. But it was, you know, the property market and the land and development and investment and all the markets we were in were moving very, very fast at the time. Um, it was all very focused around what watch you were wearing, what car you were driving, what, you know, we, we all wanted these things with grandeur and we, we did ultimately in, in the right context, we kind of did what we needed to do to be able to get them. Um, and I, I think cancer kind of gave me this. I would normally put a whole lot more context to what I'm about to say. Um, but, um, in hindsight, looking back at it now, at the time it wasn't, um, but looking back at a Cancer was one of the best things that happened to me because of what's now come afterwards. And that reset that I was fortunate to have. Since then I've battled through that first diagnosis. I cycled across America, um, and raised over £100,000 for Macmillan. Um, unfortunately I was re. Diagnosed again 15, um, years ago on the 6th of June. So this is my 15 years now. Um, I was diagnosed again for the second time. But fast forward since then. We've broken and I use the word we and we'll come on to that in a few minutes, but I use the word we a lot. But we've broken the Guinness World Record for the most amount m of miles cycled in seven days. We've came third in Race across the west, we've raced across America, we've raced the European, uh, Championships. We've raised between three and a half and four million plus an event that you've been to. We've raised another 2.2 million on that event, um, and worked with some amazing organizations and met some amazing peoples, which, going back to that context thing, which is why I now say cancel, was one of the best things that happened to me because I would never have done the things I've done, worked with the people and met the people I've met if I hadn't have gone through that adversity. And I think adversity teaches us a lot. Um, often it's in hindsight, I'm afraid.

Speaker B: The cycling, where did that actually come in then? Was that always there? Or is that something that just came to you, having gone through what you've.

Speaker C: Yeah. So cycling, um, the, I always wrote, I, I, I was into mountain bikes when I was younger. Um, and I, um, I got into mountain bikes when I was about 11 years old. Um, this bike shop opened, um, near to us and everybody, the whole town was talking about this new bike shop because the bikes were really expensive, um, and it was kind of like, how's anybody going to afford that? And I remember going and looking at this shop and I just fell in love. The first time I walked in, I fell in love. And that, um, that sparked something that meant I started mowing lawns, I was washing cars, I, the, the kind of. Now we would say the entrepreneurial spirit kicked in. You know, it wasn't, I was a kid of 11 years old that was like the shiny stuff and I wanted to achieve this, this shiny thing. Um, so I washed cars, mowed lawns, I sold the bikes I had, I sold off the things that I, that I didn't need, um, and I got into mountain biking. I bought my first. At the time it was what was known as a kind uh, of fire mountain. And I got into mountain biking. So I rode mountain bikes all the way through till I. Until I was about 19. So I did eight, um, eight, nine years. Um, got to a national ranking position in downhill mountain biking. I transitioned from cross country into mountain biking about 96. Ah, 95. 96. Race mountain bikes downhill for a number of years. And then I broke my shoulder. Some stuff happened at home and, um, um, I found myself in a position of having to get a proper job. So I. That was where I then left cycling behind with it, then came back in again as part of my recovery. The idea was that I. Well, what actually happened was that I was sat, uh, at home one day, really not feeling very good and one of the guys that lived at my house had got his bike in the corner. I asked if I could borrow it. I took it to the local reservoir and I rode five miles around the local reservoir and was not, you know, I've got no hair on my head or what hair I had got. And it was this sense of freedom that I got, uh, a sense of freedom that I hadn't experienced for a long time. I mean, I just relearned to walk. Um, and it was from there that I then went and did it twice. I then went and wrote to my mum's house. I then rode a bit further and the whole kind of riding for charity piece came in from, um, wanting to go back to work but not wanting to go back to work but not wanting to go back into what I wanted to, but wanting to do something. And if I'm completely honest, which I try to be as much as I can be. But, um, I sat in my lounge one Sunday with a horrendous hangover. Horrendous hangover. Um, and I sat there and something just hit me that this isn't, this isn't right. Phil Baraguanath, who was my surgeon, had spent so much time caring for me. He'd given up his family holiday to be able to be at the hospital because I was in such a bad way, to be able to look after me and make sure that nothing went wrong whilst he was away. Charlotte west was the nurse, uh, who would work double shifts to make sure she was there with me at night. Um, I remember the first time I met Charlotte. I remember, I remember Phil Bragworth. I remember the first time I met Phil because I was in such a bad way When I met him. Um, but I remember the first time I met Charlotte. I'd just come off intensive care and I'd gone onto the ward, and she was the first nurse that I met. Um, and she actually wrote something. There was a time we were putting some stuff together and she wrote something that, uh, when I came on the ward, she was told to not get too close to me because I wasn't going to be there for long. And that wasn't because I was gonna get better and leave. I. That was, you know, it was. I wasn't out of the woods. And I remember meeting her. Uh, and my point being is that these two people, they're my inspiration. They're the reason why I do what I do. And I just kind of went, this isn't right. I've gotta do something. And that was when I decided to cycle across America and, um, raise some money for macmillan. But also, key point was really to thank them for everything they'd done for me.

Speaker B: Okay, can I just put some context around when you say cycle across America? I don't think a lot of people can quite conceptualize that. I mean, it's a statement, but give me some stats. Like what. What actually is that ride?

Speaker C: Okay, so cycle across, so I know where you're going. So there's. There's two bits here. So there's Cycle across America and then there's Race across America. So cycle across America. Um, the idea was to start in Santa Monica, ride down to, uh, San Diego, and then across from San Diego via Austin, Texas, all the way across to Jacksonville. So, and then down from Jacksonville to, um, down from Jacksonville to Florida, which was 3,245 miles. Um, and the idea was to do that over 34 days. So that would be a hundred miles a day. Um, and we would finish in Miami a year to the day of being given the all clear from cancer.

Speaker D: Wow.

Speaker C: So that was. That was the idea of that trip. Um, the first time I did that, it didn't go quite according to plan. Um, I got hit by a truck just outside New Orleans. Um, but I went back in January2011. That was in 2010. I went back in 2011 because I'd said I'd ride across America. And originally I was going to go back to where the accident had happened and then ride from where the accident happened into to Miami. But for me, something just sat in my head and said, you still won't have ridden across America. You'll have ridden from, from Santa Monica to New Orleans and then from New Orleans to, um, to Miami. So I made the decision to go back and do the whole thing again, which I then went back and did in 24 days instead of 34 days.

Speaker B: Wow, that is incredible. And, like, I remember when we did do the challenge against you in the office when you were riding. So that. That was the other challenge, right? The more. The more recent one.

Speaker C: That was Race Across America. So Race Across America. M. When I completed the Ride across America in 2011, I then got introduced to this thing called Race Across America, which runs from Oceanside, California, just not just south of Santa Monica, just north of, uh, San Diego, um, and that runs from Oceanside, California, uh, up through Colorado, Kansas, uh, and then across to Atlantic city, and that's 3,100 miles. But you do that in 12 days.

Speaker B: I just want to. I just love anyone who's listening to just. He just said 12 days. And I remember when we were doing this challenge against you, we had a relay of people in the office who would jump on the bike, smash out as hard as they could, 30 minute, 20 to 30 minutes, tag, do the next person, and then we'd come in the next day, and we had this little, like, GPS tracker of where you were, where we are. We're like, yeah, we're all good. We're all good after day one. And then day two, day three, it was like, oh, my God, this guy is just not human.

Speaker C: I think the first day. So the first. As you say, you've got two. You've got two bikes, and you were relaying on it. And then, um, I was doing. The first day, I did 325 miles. The first 24 hours was 300. 324 miles. And I think the next day was another 300, essentially, in. In two and a. I think in two and a half days, I'd ridden two, two and a half, maybe three days, I'd ridden, um, 930 miles from Oceanside, California to Durango, Colorado. That was the idea. The idea of the challenge was that you guys would set off just before me, and you'd be like, yeah, like, he's not used to that idea. And then you'd come in, in the morning and be like, how. How. How was that?

Speaker B: Sainsbury trip to Sainsbury's on my bike is not, uh, quite adequate training, it would seem. But, uh. So on this point, then. So this gets me to. I mean, there's just such an incredible feat of endurance and resilience is the kind of thing I really wanted to pick your brains about. And get into. And so, as you were just describing your. Your kind of story, your journey, if you like, the last, I guess, two decades, it sounds like there's been almost like, incident after incident. It's like you get cancer once, you get cancer twice, you get hit by a truck. All these things. Does it ever get any easier having gone through something once, or is each one a unique test every single time?

Speaker C: Uh, in some respects, no, it doesn't get easier because there is always the, uh, why? Like, again, you know, there's the. There's a. There's a real. Doing the rounds on social media at the moment, which makes me chuckle, which is the, uh, I'm done with whatever doesn't break you makes you stronger. Um, I want the sun. I want the sunsets and beaches. Um, and I get it, because I'm ready for the sunsets and beaches. Okay? M. But I think also you build resilience from them because something that you and I have talked about and we talked about in that short session that I did with the students, I think reflection is key to this. Resilience and reflection, I think, go hand in hand. Um, and the reason why they go hand in hand is because if we actually stop for a second when we come up against something, if we actually stop for a second and look at what we've already been through and what we've already achieved in. Achieved in our lives, it makes moving forward so much easier mentally. It doesn't stop the battle. It doesn't stop the argument of, uh, like, I'm done with this. I've. Why? Okay, I give up. I've had enough. Those things are all very, very prevalent. They happen all the time. Louise, um, would be nodding right now of the arguments that you kind of go, why? Like, at the moment, we've got an event coming up, and I'm just like. It feels. It feels like you have good news coming on one hand. And as soon as that good news comes in on one hand, there's something that goes out on the other hand. But actually, in reality, um, I'm trying to think of something that's not patronizing, that I can use as a description. But, you know, if you've got five apples coming in on one hand, but all of a sudden somebody stolen two of them, you have to remind yourself you still three up. Like, you know, um, and it's hard, um, because that too, that. That negative 2 can feel so much more, can feel so much heavier than. Than the likeness of still achieving the three. Does that make sense? You know, we we always, we always reflect on, um, well, so we always look back at, uh, I've been hard done to. That's gone. But actually, you wouldn't have been able to let that go if that hadn't have come in the first place. And I think reflecting on what we've already been through, my subconscious, um, is no matter what I put myself through, my subconscious is never gonna, is always gonna know that it's never as bad as what I went through when I had cancer. So no matter how much I punish myself on a bike, no matter how hot it gets, no matter how sweaty it gets, no matter how dehydrated, tired, if I can keep moving forward, I know that at some point that that's going to stop. I'm going to have a beer and a steak and I'm going to sit down, I'm going to pat myself on the back and go, well done. And everything's going to be all right again. But I think that the resilience, I think if we, if we look back, we're so busy all the time looking three steps ahead of where we want to get to or how do I get to my next goal that we don't look at the 15, 20, 30, 40 years experience that we have behind us. You know, you didn't end up in the situation that you're in now, looking at those three steps down the road by accident. You got there because of everything that you've already been through. So to put that in another terminology, you don't just rock up at the start line of Race Across America. No, nobody does. You know, you don't just arrive there and go, I'm going to ride 3100 miles in 12 days. You know that that starts off with. And that 3,100 miles may be your biggest goal. Um, but we start off with the 20 mile sportive. We start off with the 40, then the 50, then the 60. I think if we, if we wind up, let's, let's just wind that right back for a moment and look at that first, that first ride across America, which was going to be 3,500 miles. Um, just for splitting heads, there's going to be 3500 miles and 34 days to ride it. And I was still recovery, in a sense, from, from cancer. And I was going out riding my bike every day. Um, and I just got to the point of when, why am I doing this? I'm doing this because I know, uh, okay, I'm doing it because I'm going to ride across America in June. I'm going to ride 3500 miles but constantly focus on that massive target. All of it kind of, it didn't put into relation of like, what difference does 50 miles make each day or 100 miles each day? How does that get me any closer to that target? And I remember at that point looking at it and going, okay, what I need to do is I need a sporty in March and then I need another one in April, maybe something else a bit bigger in May. And what I ended up actually doing was I went and did, um, I went and did the Cal. I went and did Caledonia a Tap, um, which was a closed road sportive up in Scotland. And I did that with macmillan. Then I went and did an event called the Dragon Ride, which was a bit bigger than the Caledonia tap was about 90 miles off the, off the top of my head. I don't completely recall what 90s there for some reason. Then I went and did the Dragon Ride, which I think was 125 miles. Um, and then, and then I, and then I went and did um, Lands End to John O Groats or John o' Groats to Lands End, um, which was seven days. And I did that because that would give me a chance to see where I was over a period of days, back to back days. The others had just been one day events. But regardless of what was happening in those events, what I was actually doing is each time I'm stepping up. So each time I'm going, okay, I've done 90 miles, now I'm going to do 120. Now I'm going to try and do that back to back. And then by the time you then go to three weeks, all of a sudden you're like, okay, I've got to go and do three weeks across America. I can't train for three weeks across America. But I can prepare myself for what I think is going to come. So you're constantly building that resilience. But also when you're sitting on. So when you're going from that 90 miles you go to 125. You know, you're at mile 85 going, I don't feel great. And you go, you've already done 90. You've already done 90 the other week. So now you can, you can keep going. Once you go past that 90, all of a sudden you go, actually I've only got 30 miles to go to finish. And some people will go, that makes no sense. But if you're, if you're a Cyclist. It makes sense because you, yeah, you kind of go, well, that's the same as what we did yesterday. So now, now we're not doing any more than what we've already done before. Um, and then again when I decided to go for Race Across America, that was a process that, that took place over a couple of years. That was. First of all, I'm going to go and get the Guinness seven day world record, which we broke in, in June, uh, 2017. I rode 1,766 miles in seven days. Um, and then you decide that you're going to go and do Race Across America. Um, but you've got to qualify for Race Across America. So actually my next challenge is going to be 930 miles in, in, in three days. But again, for me this all just becomes a numbers game. For me it just all becomes a mathematical equation that you sit there and go, okay, how do you go from. Because some people would say what you're actually doing, James, you've just contradicted yourself because you've gone from 1,766 miles to 930. But okay, but let's look at that slightly differently. 1766 miles in seven days is 245 miles a day. 930 miles over, uh, three days is 310 miles a day. So what you've actually done is you've brought, you've, you've brought the mileage down, but you've actually increased it because you're doing, uh, doing more miles over a short period of time. But how do you get from 245 miles to 330 miles? Well, you sit there and you go, when we were doing 245 miles a day, I was riding for 14 hours a day. I was sleeping for four hours a day. Where am I, where am I losing six hours. So how do I become more efficient with what I'm doing on the bike? Because that six hours, even at a slightly less miles per hour gives me that extra distance over that period of time. So really if we can refine what we're doing and become better at what we do, become more resilient with what we're doing. So I don't need to stop as often. Again, reflection. I don't have to look, you know, if I can go, okay guys, I'm going to stop now for a sandwich. Rather than stopping and then going, can I have a sandwich? All of a sudden you've made up that extra distance. So again you break everything down into one step. At a time you break everything down into. That's where I want to get to. This is where I am now. But actually to get there, I'm going to take this steps and then actually I'm going to come back a little bit and then I'm going to go again. That's what goes on in my head.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think, I think a lot of that definitely translates into, uh, the finance space. When I think about a lot of the students right now, if they're listening to this, they're in the middle of an internship, so they feel this kind of weight of burden of I can't waste this opportunity. And all they can think about is at the end of this nine weeks, I have to have got a return offer to come back and be given full time employment. They don't think about right, what am I going to achieve by the end of today? Like, I want to have networked with two senior people. I want to have completed this project. They're just thinking, am I going to get a return offer in nine weeks? Uh, and that in itself, mentally kind of almost constrains them to be able to have the freedom to perform to some respect.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think my message on that point would be that every day can be a win, but just, just depends on what that win is. And you know, and success is deemed differently. Um, I was talking to somebody, slightly different context, but I was talking to somebody a couple of weeks ago, um, and we were talking about success. And I said, well, for me, I think success, we look at success in a slightly skewed manner that we look at success as being, yes, we want to achieve that. Okay, so there's things we want to achieve each day, um, but what determines them being a success? If you're on a ladder, um, and somebody finishes higher up than you, did they start at the same place as you did on that ladder or did they start higher up than you did on that ladder? Have they been more successful than you or actually have you achieved more than them, but you're not quite ahead of them yet. Um, what I also mean by that is that, okay, today I didn't network with two people. Today I didn't close that project, or today I didn't achieve something else that I wanted to. But actually I've learned an easier way of doing it and I've learned a way that I can do it tomorrow. And actually the person that I wanted to network, network with, I've now actually gotten into the person that's above them. Um, so, okay, I didn't achieve what was on my list of things that I wanted to do. But actually today was a success because I now know how I can implement something that's going to make tomorrow even better than it was going to be in the first place. And I think again, if we look at that as being a bike riding terminology, you know, um, there's a terminology that I use in um, cycling, which is, um, kind of, it's rolling recovery. Because not every day is going to be a big day on the bike. It can't be. You know, there has to be the days of where you go, okay, I'm just going to step back. Um, and there's lots of analogies in that. Ah, you know, um, if you look at when, when you jump forward in, in PE or sports or whatever you do, whenever you jump forward, you always have to take a step back to be able to jump forward. You know, you never see anybody do the high jump or the long jump that doesn't take a step back or lean backwards before they move forwards. Physics means that we move backwards before we move forwards. Boxing, you know, if you look at boxing, to throw a good punch in boxing, you have to step backwards to be able to do it. It's weird, but that's, that's the way that it is. So not every day will be a success, but is every day going to benefit you in some way in getting to the goal that you want to get to?

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I love that, love that analogy. And with the self reflection part, I just wanted to ask you. I think people kind of get the notion of self reflection, but what have you found? Like practically speaking, do you just kind of think back to those moments or do you write stuff down? Do you keep like a very, like a diary of all of these feelings? Like what, what's useful kind of advice on that side so that people can take definitive action from their self reflections?

Speaker C: I think probably think about it a lot more. I mean my, my ADHD means I've got lots of notebooks. It doesn't mean that, doesn't mean that, that doesn't mean that they're very productive, I'm afraid. But I do think a lot about it and I, I think, um, I mean again, I, I look at it as. In some respects I'm quite fortunate that I am fortunate that I've been through what I've been through in the fact that I've now got lots of anniversaries, um, that certain things happen and I'm like, oh, that's, I remember that's the date that I came out of Hospital. Oh, the 12th of April is the date I came outta hospital. The 13th of November is the date I was diagnosed. The 25th of July is the date I was given the all clear. And um, so I do, I do have things that pull me back into that every now and again. Um, and also some of the events that uh, I go into, I'm thinking of how do we tell the story of not just of the event, but also how we got to this event and some of that then reflects back onto those things. Um, I do, I think it's in my nature to be a bit more reflective, but I think we don't talk about it as being a tool that will enable us to achieve the things that we want to quite as much as we should do. And it's something that I push within a lot of my speaking sessions. You know, um, particularly those interns. You know, you've got an internship now, remember, um, when you wanted one. Remember, remember what you would have done to get one. Remember, remember what you went through and the amount of applications or the amount of write ups that you did to be able to get the internship. You know, um, just because you, you know, just because you've made it to the big league. That's where the work starts. That's where, that's where the work starts. Yeah. You might have worked hard to get here, but now is, now is not the time to take a break. Um, and it's very, very easy for me to sit here and give the advice. It doesn't mean that I'm always great at following it. And I will, and I will battle with that. And I, I. The reflection again, the reflection piece is that, um, sometimes I'm annoyed that I didn't see certain opportunities. Um, but at the same time I get asked regularly, um, would I go back in time and change anything that's happened to me? No, not a chance. I wouldn't, I wouldn't be, I wouldn't, as I've already touched on, I wouldn't have been involved with the organizations that, that I've worked with. I wouldn't be involved with the brands that I've worked with. I wouldn't be with my wife, I wouldn't have my kids. I wouldn't live where I live. You know, none of the things that I have today would, would be the way they are if I went back and changed anything just doesn't work like that. I mean, if you would say to me, would you go back and change it? I'D say I'd like to, I'd like to have had an insurance policy when I was ill, you know, but, but other. Other than that, there isn't anything I'd go back and change because they're the things that build us into, to what's, what's coming.

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Speaker C: Think you have what it takes?

Speaker B: I was going to ask in terms of the kind of experiencing of self doubt because I think a lot of, a lot of people experience this and I guess everyone's challenge is somewhat different in different ways, whatever profession they're in, whatever life situation they're in. But when you feel like that negative talk is creeping in for you, and I'm sure it's a lonely place on a bike cycling for 350 miles a piece, uh, I'm sure there's a lot of conversation going in your mind. How do you, what, what are steps or techniques to get to, to kind of quell that negativity and put it, to put it to bed?

Speaker C: I think there's two answers, strangely. Uh, people say, what do you do on the bike for that longer period of time? And you do a lot of mathematical equations. Um, genuinely, you do. Um, it's, it sounds really strange, but transferring, um, or translating kilometers into miles and miles into kilometers, um, because depending upon where you are in the race, at whichever point, weirdly, two miles can feel a lot less than three kilometers. Um, it's obviously, obviously it's not. But strangely, mentally it can, it can be a big help. Um, I think when, when we talk about, when we talk about doubt, when we talk about questioning what you're doing, asking yourself whether you're doing the right thing. Um, for me, um, a phrase that I use quite regularly is questioning what you do validates the reasons why you're doing it. If you don't question what you're doing, why are you doing it? You should, you should question what you're doing. Because also by questioning what you're doing, it allows you to improve on how you do it because it makes you to really, it makes you really think about what you're doing, what you want to do. Do you really want to continue doing this? And you know, sometimes you'll sit there and go, I really don't want to do this anymore. But then all of a sudden you re, you have to then ask yourself the question, what if I wasn't doing it? A, what would I do? B, what would I do differently? Um, and say, would I miss it? And for me, whilst I edge closer and closer towards that, not doing it anymore. Door. Um, you're looking for other things because I would miss it. I'd miss conversations like this because it'd be the wooden, you know, I would be relying on conversations like this, not just the events. Um, I would be, I would be looking for people to go for a bike ride. I would need an excuse to go and ride my bike. Whereas at the moment I have to go ride my bike.

Speaker D: You know.

Speaker C: And some days that is an absolute battle. Some days when it's, when it's raining, I don't mind going out and it starts raining, but when you're out and um, you have to go out in the rain, that's a whole different context. So I think questioning what you're doing, I think that's a good thing. I think it's, it's, it makes it healthy because you know that you are doing it for all of the right reasons.

Speaker D: Cool.

Speaker B: And then while there's a segue from that, I was going to ask in terms of performing under pressure. So for you, it's kind of like, you know, I always think this with Olympians, they have four years of training for potentially just a 10 second race and then it's over and one missed part of execution of four years worth of work. You have to wait another four years.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: So, uh, with that aspect of when you have one of these events, you've been building up to it, you've got key sponsors, you've got a lot, a lot of risk on the line. How do you focus in and zone in and make sure that you deliver at that moment. Is there some sort of framework to it that could be applicable, do you think, to workplace?

Speaker C: Not necessarily. I mean, I, I just take the view that, uh, I'm, um, going to stand on the start line and do my best. I, I, I, you know, I've got, and I think the, the key, the key thing to all of this as well, or one of the key points to this is the people that you have around you. You talked a lot about what I do, um, and the races that I take part in, you know, Race Across America, you've got two team, you've got 10 people on that event looking after you. So you've got two teams of five that are doing 12 hour shifts, uh, to be able to look after you. And they're people that are, uh, you know, drivers, they're looking after your food, they're looking after you physically. They're the massage therapists. Um, navigation. There's, you know, the whole. There's a whole host of people that you have around you. Um, and I think that's the same. When I was casting back to kind of the investment and property days, you know, it was never all I would do in. Essentially, all I would do is put the deal together. You know, we then have a solicitor that would see it through, but have a mortgage advisor or a financial advisor that would be dealing with the financial part of it. We'd have a surveyor that would be dealing with, uh, the survey side of things. It would be my. My. I was part of a team of at least four people to be able to bring that deal to life. Um, and I think that it's something that we, Again, it's something that we come away from quite easily. Um, in the sense that speaking sessions I've done before, I've said, you know, that even the cleaner emptying the bin at the end of the day, she's a key member of your team. Because otherwise you want to walk in the morning, look under your desk and it's a mess. And nobody wants to look under their desk and see a mess. To which point I feel like I need to just check on the mic before I say that, to make sure it's not a mess. But my point is that we structure a whole team around us, whether that's our, uh, family, whenever. I don't. Again, going back to Race Across America. I first went to Race across America in 2022, and I was as fit as I'd ever been. I was absolutely the fittest I could imagine. And I was pulled out of the race within 24 hours because I caught Covid. Yet I went back in 2024.

Speaker D: Now,

Speaker C: everything else prior to that was the same, but 2024 was not a decision that I made on my own to go back to Race Across America. That was a decision that was made by. That was a decision that was kind of, what's the words, um, brought to life by a conversation which I then carried. Um, and the conversations in that were with Dino, my coach, Simon, project manager, um, Alex and Charlie, both massage therapists. Louise, um, Freddie, my son. You know, they were conversations with sponsors. It wasn't a case of, I'm going back to Race Across America. It was a conversation with a whole host of people to decide whether that was something that we were going to do. And I think that that's the same. It's the same in anything that we do. It's not just in the sporting world, but whether that's academically, whether that's in business, whether that's interns wanting to go and to get to a certain level. Where do you want to get to within. Within your career? Um, where do you want to get to within your personal life? And actually, who do you need to share those goals with? Who do you need to share those aspirations with? And I think also going into, into a corporate world, um, and I've seen it so many times. Um, there was one particular, um, when I was working with Royal bank of Canada or, um, with Brewing Dolphin at the time. It's. It's still Brewing Dolphin or Bank of Canada. And M, when I was working with them, and there were a couple of juniors in there that kind of like, I want to be CEO. And it was like, that's a bit of. Not from me, but it was like, that's a bold move. And I'm like, no, you should be tell people you want to be CEO, because there might be three or four people ahead of you. Some of them will push you back down and they will, they will, you know, they'll, um, they'll spank the puppy, put it back in its best, so to speak. Like, hold on, you're, like, getting a bit far ahead of yourself. It's like, no, that's my aspiration. And I need to surround myself with the people that I want to learn off and I need to make sure that I'm not cocky about it. I'm going to be CEO, but I want to work towards that. And yes, there will be people in front of you. Um, and you might be, you might feel shy. I said that I wanted to go and win Race Across America. Um, and some people say that's a bit of a bold statement, isn't it? And I'm like, well, nobody stands on the start line to come last. Like, yeah, I want to win it. I'm not saying I can win it. I'm saying I want to win it. And, um, I'm going to give everything I've got to be able to win it. I'm going to train to win it, eat to win it, sleep to win it. I'm going to absorb as much information as I possibly can about it. So I know. So I know what's ahead of me. And that's the same within, within business. Turning around and saying you want to be the CEO, that's fine. There may be three or four people ahead of you who you think are actually in line to be CEO, but, uh, they don't want it. And they might see something in you that says, this, this guy, this, this person could be CEO of this company, and I'll take them under my wing and help guide them and teach them and support them in any way that I can to get there. But, uh, being bold and being arrogant are two different things.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's really interesting what you're saying about having a team around you, because I don't think a lot of people necessarily think that. Maybe that's because of the way of which it's framed nowadays is you already see this as success and the individual is kind of championed in our society where there's so many people in the background. Were you always good at, uh, bringing in those people or being able to be open with those people? And the reason why I ask is that a lot of the young people I encounter working in a lot of these high finance roles, they often feel like they don't want to let people down and so they internalize it a lot themselves. And that almost, I've seen that pressure almost breaks them into some respect because they don't share that, share it at all. Just wondered whether you'd had experiences of that. And have you, have you developed and learned, as you pointed?

Speaker C: I think there's not sure really. I think there's, there's probably, it's probably more prevalent in that, uh, I've developed. I would say that I've probably developed it.

Speaker D: Um,

Speaker C: but if I look at. I've always managed to. I've always had the right people around me and I'm not particularly prior to being ill, always had the right people around me. Um, I'm not sure I looked at it in, in that way then. It's certainly something that I've become more aware of and I've perhaps become more aware of it because a couple of people have kind of said, I'm not sure how you bring a team together in the way that you do, but you. I seem to have not a knack, um, but it's not necessarily a conscious decision that I managed to have the right people around me when I'm taking stuff on, um, or when I'm setting up a challenge. And I think that's because. But again, with my team, if I look back at 20, 24 or even 20, 22. Um, you know, that was going from the seven day world record with just me and Dean and then Charlie dropped in and helped a bit on it. Mark Sinclair helped, dropped in and helped on it. Jules did some photography on it. Um, five amazing people. Um, and then you kind of go, okay, well how do we now get to uh, race across the west? Um, as I said, we've talked about how you go from 245 miles a day to 330 or 310 miles a day. Um, but you kind of go, okay, we're going to need a bigger team. So who are we going to, who are we going to bring in on that? Well, we'll bring Charlie in on a more of a full time basis. Um, let's bring um, Lee, who's a very, very good bike fitter mechanic. You got to look around you and go, okay, what's our next challenge? And who can we, can we bring into that? And that's the direct team that you have around you. But I think the real key, important people within that team are actually the external ones. They are your partner, your children, your mum, your dad, um, people, um, people that create that balance away from what that, that target is.

Speaker B: Yeah, I've always uh, I've always found that as well. Like when you work in like the

Speaker D: bubble that can be like the city of London sometimes you can often stage yourself.

Speaker B: I remember a lot of the traders

Speaker D: back in the day when I was at college. My brother's a bit older and he was a trader. And you'd look around and you'd go, oh, everyone's got this, everyone's got that. And then you're like, hang about, I'm living like a, uh, 0.001% like life compared to most people. Feeling down about like, listen to the people, uh, or who you're surrounding yourself with. Coming, uh, from a small seaside working part town, you then go home and you're your mate. I'll see them put you back in your box. You're like, yeah, that quality of uh, they're the people that know you the

Speaker B: most and are the most honest with you, are the most valuable to you.

Speaker C: But even on that I think that, you know, there's a thing of kind of looking at that and kind of go. And I was in town a few weeks ago, um, and I was with, um, I was with a couple of the guys from Das Business Furniture. You've met the guys from there before at the Velo Joan. Um, and we were walking, we were walking through town and kind of you're looking at, ah, looking in some shop windows and kind of going, how much is that bathroom suite? Um, to kind of like look at that, look at that. Oh yeah, that's a 300,000 pound car or oh, that's half a million pound car. And you kind of go in, wow. Like I'm feeling, feeling slightly insufficient would probably be an understatement. But then half an hour later you walk in on the tube and there's three or four people sat by the entrance to the tube with nothing but a dog. And you kind of go I'm fine, I'm fine. Um, and I think changing that context slightly, it's very easy to look around people within the organization that you work with and go they're earning this, they've got this, they've got that. They've been doing it 20 years. So you know, they've been where you are. And I think there's a, there's, there's a uh, there's Again, reflecting back on the bike side of things, we've just done an event where we have 18 people ride from Land center to Jolly Groves, which um, is 900 miles. And some of them, um, or one or two of them really weren't cyclists. And I was trying to explain to them in the six month buildup to it, I was like, look, share what you're going through, share the things that as we call it, if you bonk, which is where you go out and you've not eaten enough food and all of a sudden you find yourself in a very, very dark place with very little energy and all you want to do is get home and you can already identify the contents of the fridge before you even get home. Um, and you're just not, you're not in a good way. Um, everybody's done it. There isn't anybody on a bike ride that hasn't done it. And this is what I'm m saying to these 18 people. There isn't anybody that you will come across riding a bike that hasn't at some point in time done that. And if they're new to cycling, they're going to do that. So to get to this point of riding 900 miles in three days, there isn't anything that I've done that, that you're going through that I haven't already been through, that puncture, uh, in the rain, that not eating enough food, all of those dark days of I just want to be at home of being cold, frozen, not having enough clothes on or having too Many clothes on and absolutely baking. We've all been through that experience and that's key, I think, to where you're at in your internship of looking at where you want to get to and go in. Yes, I want the 911 parked downstairs, or I want the penthouse and um, the country house or whatever that is. That's. That's taken 20 years to get that. That's taken 20 years. That's taken a team of people around that person to support them in the right possible way. There may have been a whole lot of other things going on in there as well. There may be two divorces in there, there may be kids in there, there may be redundancies in there. Just because they're sitting up there doesn't mean that they haven't been through this whole different level of, call it trauma if you want to, but trauma to get to that point in time. Um, and there isn't any guarantee that you're going to get there. But don't be some. Under some illusion that just because they've got it, it's easy to get and they've built resistance, they've built resilience to your point, to be able to get to that. And that could have been, you know, that that will be the rejection. We look back at so many different stories of the amount of times of people that have been rejected and it's made them stronger. Um, because, you know, I don't. Ah. And again, one of the key things with the team that I've always had around me, I don't want a team that are going to tell me what I want to hear, because what I want to hear is not going to get me to the finish line. What I need to hear is what's going to get me to the finish line.

Speaker B: That word rejection, maybe just to finish on that is now, I think the last internship run, students had to set 105 applications to get one job offer. Uh, so the rejection rate is very high and the highest it's ever been because a lot of people are using AI tools and so applications have gone up and so forth. So getting used to dealing with rejection. Is there a way? I've heard different people talk about this in different types of ways in the, um. It's almost like a trader before has had like a bad day trading and it's like they have to have a wake in the pub that evening to put to bed the bad day's trade in order to be able to clear the mind for tomorrow. Like, do you have any type of way um, of dealing with rejection, I

Speaker C: think, um, I suppose I do in a roundabout way. Um, I think it was, um, again, going back to the property days, you kind of look at it and go, okay, there's been. Why was it rejected? Was my application good? Yes, it was. Um, was it. Have, uh, I been on time for my interviews or whatever calls and other things essentially. Is there anything that I could have done differently to change that outcome? And if the answer to that is no, then it wasn't the right fit. It's time to, time to move on. You have no control over that. Um, if there was a situation of where you can look at it and go, yeah, okay, I could have improved on that, I could have done that differently. Um, or I should have changed that then, okay, you know, give yourself a kick in for an hour or two and make sure you don't do it again. Because moving forward you're not going to. And you will, you will gain more from that type of rejection than you will from the one that you did everything right. But you just didn't get it. Because essentially what you're actually going to do is self improve. Like I say, I first. What we didn't touch on was I first went for the seven day world record in 2014. Um, and I didn't achieve it. I was taken off the bike after five days. I didn't get off the bike. I was taken off the bike by my team because it was unsafe for me to carry on. Um, and, um, it was clear that there was a problem with one of my legs. Um, it was actually my knee. My knee had just decided that 1100 miles in five days was too much. Um, but you then look at what we did with it in 2017 and we massively simplified it. Massively simplified it. We cut everything back. We didn't have two cars, we had one. We didn't have six crew, we had two. Um, we literally, we didn't go off on some big adventure of trying to navigate from one place to the next. I stayed at home and we did loops and laps that were, that were around my local roads that I knew and that were in the area because the goal was to achieve the seven day world record. The goal wasn't to create nice photos. And, um, this story. The goal was to complete the seven day world record and we made it simple and we brought everything back to basics. It's so easy to overcomplicate things. We touched on this before we, before we started, but it's so easy to overcomplicate it. Keeping things simple, um, and trying to just take one step at a time, looking at where you want to be, being realistic about where you are now and going, okay, these are the steps that I need to take. And actually, if I. If I've got 10 steps that I need to take, if I get to step five, and actually I need to take a step back to four, that's fine, because I'm still four steps ahead of where I was before I set out on this journey. Yes, I've still got six to do. But actually, why have I had to take a step back? Let's learn from that step back. Let's change things into a different format. And then we go again. Nobody. Another analogy. Nobody climbs straight to the top of a mountain. Everybody will climb up, they'll come down a little bit, then they'll go again, and then they come down a little bit, and then they go again. And then they get to the top of the mountain and it's never done in one walk. And that guy that walks up the mountain endlessly with, with, you know, those. The Sherpas that are taking everybody up that do it day in, day out, they've been doing it for 20 years. They're not the guy that's just rocked up with the new North Face jacket that thinks that he's going to stroll straight up to the top of the mountain because he's not going to.

Speaker B: I didn't know you were there when I was there.

Speaker C: Yeah, but. But again, you get my point. And, uh, they're these little analogies and all these, all these messages are everywhere around us. You know, um, you look at the computer screens that we've got. My kids watch some of the old films that we used to watch, and they're like, look at that telly. You know, no, that's. That's how they were. You know, and you look at mobile phones and all these different things that, you know, we used to have a phone and an ipod. Now we've got a phone, uh, that is an ipod and a laptop and everything else in our hands. These are all things that have happened one step at a time. So that. That progress is not a linear line. It really isn't. And there's messages all around us that say, actually, you know, we've. We've got. We've got time. And I paused there because there's a certain contradiction because we haven't got time. The one thing that we don't have is. Is time. But. But, uh, but we have time to actually all. All fast success is never lasting success. So actually by, by taking your time over that, by learning, by taking the information available to you and picking the right people or working with the right people to develop yourself and to move forward, um, is key. I've been very fortunate that where I'm at now, I've been able to. I suppose in some respects my story has opened doors for me that have allowed me to, to work with or communicate, learn from, be part of a very vast group of people. Um, and I'm, and I'm one of the people that are able to soak up knowledge and then reflect on that and use it. But if you can, if you can do that, reflection will help you build resilience and will help you move forward.

Speaker D: Brilliant.

Speaker B: Well, maybe to close, you could tell us a little bit about the upcoming challenge. You're in the midst of training for now.

Speaker C: Yes. Uh, two weeks time. So. Two weeks, uh, two weeks today, which makes it even scarier. I will be, um, halfway between home, which is in the Algarve in Portugal, and Barcelona, um, because I will be setting out on the 14th of July to ride all 21 stages of this year's Tour de France, uh, with the aim of completing all 21 stages in just 12 days. Um, and I've set myself a lofty target of raising half a million pounds this year for Great Ormond Street Children's Cancer Centre.

Speaker B: Brilliant. And I'll include that link into the show notes. So, yeah, please do get everyone, get involved. And James, I know, as you said, you came in and gave a fantastic speech to some of the young people that we work with, with the charity Upreach, um, which has a big drive for social mobility and you were so awesome when you spoke to them. So, uh, again, if there's anyone I know, we have quite a diverse listenership on this podcast where there's people working who are quite senior and working at law firms or banks and insurance and so forth.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: I encourage you, definitely getting in connection with James and some of the talks have been so uplifting and so positive and so practical, uh, as hopefully you've got with this conversation as well. So, James, thank you so much for sharing your time with us.

Speaker C: Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

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