Navigating Southeast Asia: Jeremy Au on Building, Investing, and Career Pivots

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Speaker B: Welcome to the Life Self Mastery podcast where we bring in entrepreneurs who have created online businesses and improved their lifestyles. Here's your host, Rohit Malhotra.

Speaker C: Foreign. This is Rohit from Lifestyle Mastery and truly excited to have Jeremy Au, who's, who is the COO of Lunds and he's now the CEO of Cosmetic Physician Partners Asia. Uh, and he's been a recipient of Forbes 30 under 30 and he's back more than 50 startups as angel investor. Welcome to show. Um, Jeremy.

Speaker B: Yeah, happy to be on the show. Thanks for uh, having me m here.

Speaker C: Awesome. Jeremy, you've had a very interesting journey. You founded um, Kozaken, uh, then you became a VC at Monksale, uh, and then you went back as an operator, um, as a CEO of Lucent and now you've taken the CEO seat. So what pulled you back into the operator chair each time? And why are you back in the CEO role?

Speaker B: Life is uh, really about what you build and who you do it with. And I think that's really what has always inspired me. I've always been in a builder role, um, whether it was at Bain and consulting very much learning uh, the basics and foundations or you know, at that point I was just building slide decks, I guess, uh, and analysis models. But since then, you know, I've always been drawn to places where I can build and really be surrounded by a great culture of folks. And heading even at Bain as a management consultant. It was an incredible caliber and team, um, that you get to be part of. And I've been, um, really, um, lucky to be able to be part of so many, uh, teams in terms of startups and building culture. Um, and you know, for the roles that you mentioned, uh, when I was, um, a founder for education tech startup that grew from pre C to C to series A, whether it was, uh, building uh, at Lucent as the chief operating officer, growing that out, whether it was a VC and chief of staff um, for Monks Hill Ventures which was a series AVC fund and helping them Grow and build, um, a lot of the internal systems and tools but also investing as well. I think all of these were, from my perspective, all had opportunity and the similarities of getting to build uh, and do it with great people or great culture. Yeah,

Speaker C: very interesting. Um, and you built Kozykin um, during your Harvard days, um, before it got acquired. So what did Founder Journey teach you, um, that investors see could not, you know, uh, what were some of the learnings back then?

Speaker B: I think that building companies are really hard. Um, I think they're really, really, really, really hard. And um, I think that there is a difference between, I think building a product, building um, a team and building a business. Um, and those three things, um, when you, you know, fire and all cylinders on all three of those, I think that's when um, you know, something uh, larger than itself gets to build and compound. M so I think for me, zooming out of looking at all the various companies that I've been part of, um, I think obviously start off building a product, right. Um, and that's going to be about do people want to buy it? Right. And will people pay money for it? And um, I think it's shocking how many companies and founders actually never really solved this issue. Right. Because it's not just a, ah, static target but it changes, um, consumer preferences change, technology changes, competition changes. And so I think the product market fit hunt is very real and you can never really be static around that. I think building a team is something that's a little bit more obvious to folks because most of us who have worked in companies uh, or know the importance of hiring well. Um, so I think the general principles of hiring people who are not bad at their jobs, uh, is I think a common understanding. Um, but I think the part that's difficult for startups is hiring people who are really great and hungry for the jobs and willing to take the risk. Right. And that makes it very difficult because when um, I was a star ah, eight eyed undergraduate, I wanted to join Bain or at a time I also wanted to join um, Bridgepan Group, which was at the time the world's number one nonprofit consulting group. And so I think the brand and the prestige was what drew me in. Right. Uh, but for startups I think you're very much doing the opposite side, which is I think you have a big vision but nobody knows who you are and nobody knows your product and nobody knows whether you're going to make it big or not. Right. For a lot of risk and probably not uh, the industry leading compensation either. Right. And So I think that's the tricky part for building a great team, um, which is that you understand the heuristics of hiring great people, but you don't have the ammunition or the brand to make that an easy search process. And that is I think building a great business. And I think that's where I think a lot of companies uh, also struggle as well, is that I think you have a great product and you can have a great team, but if you're not thoughtful about your strategy and business, a lot of businesses can, um, let it go to waste. Um, I think there's a sliding spectrum. Um, I think the most common one is, um, not being strategic. And strategy is a function of the fact that the world is competitive. There are other companies going after this, other teams going after it. Technology is moving. And so strategy is about the things you do and the things you don't do. And as a founder you always think about all the things you can do and the big vision and everything. And the discipline. To say no, um, and to actually put, put the resources, uh, putting more wood behind fewer arrows to actually land those shots that you have to take as a business is actually really tricky, uh, for a lot of people to navigate. Um, and so I think that uh, one of the big lessons I've learned from startups is really that transition is saying, hey, figure out the product that people want to buy. Then at least you're selling something to build a great team, um, and be able to attract them to the mission and vision, which is difficult and then you can go a little bit further. And then lastly transitioning from being a founder who's selling something into becoming a CEO or executive who's able to strategize and prioritize and stack rank your decisions, um, in a very complex and ever changing world. Um, those are the three, um, dynamics that so difficult to master. Um, and I would say that I'm still learning even today.

Speaker C: Very, very interesting. And you know, you recently made a move to um, Cosmetic Physician Partners. And you know, the company has scaled to 85 plus clinics, uh, across US and Europe. And now you're building it from Singapore. So what actually transfers across borders in a, in a clinic partnership model and what do you have to rebuild from scratch, especially on the Asian region.

Speaker B: So you know, a lot of credit really goes to the founding teams of the US and Europe, uh, arms who have already, you know, built a model and really iterated and built out a win win partnership that works with clinic owners, um, to be able to work together, collaborate um, you know, synergize together as a group. Ah. And you know, be stronger together rather than fragmented individual clinics. Um, so I, um, think one of the benefits for Asia, of course, is that we get the benefit of learning from the best practices. Right. Uh, I think there are war stories, um, the things to do, the things not to do, um, the things to prioritize, and the things that can afford to wait a little bit longer. I think technology is really important because it really goes to building out, I think, the fundamentals of the business. So I think that's, you know, highly transferable. Um, I think, uh, what has uh, to be localized, of course, is the cultural and the healthcare regulations of every market in Asia. Right. I mean, and this is actually true because even in America, you know, across 50 states are actually 50 different regulation, uh, regimes. Right. For healthcare. Even within the 50 states and of course in Europe, there are also different regulation regimes. So, um, localization is really about saying that in every country there are certain healthcare codes and regulations that you had to be thoughtful about. And so being thoughtful about localization for the culture, uh, the networks and the regulations that um, you have to be compliant with, um, uh, is important. Now I think the benefit of course of being a larger group, um, as a global group is that actually compliance is easier to work together rather than individually. Right. So I think as an individual clinic owner, uh, to be able to have legal counsel compliance, there's actually a very large percentage of your costs in order to be fully compliant. Um, but as a larger group and practice of purely medical aesthetic clinics, then this compliance cost is actually shared, but more importantly it's at scale. So legal counsel is not just um, um, must do checklist item to be checked off, but actually it can be a strategic advantage because um, this is then a capability that's shared by everybody, has the learnings from every market, um, and is thoughtful about what needs to be done to have a proactive and constructive relationship with the local healthcare regulations. Um, and that's something that is actually not just helpful for the growth of the group, but also actually quite compelling for individual, um, you know, uh, clinic practice owners, uh, who may uh, find that it's difficult to handle compliance, you know, HR accounting, uh, you know, finance, all these uh, you know, uh, strategic enablers that are important and helpful at scale but don't have that economies of scale and don't have that punch when, uh, you're just a solo, uh, clinic owner.

Speaker C: You've built brave uh, podcasts into region's number one tech podcast. Um, so what story about Southeast Asia tech steam is still not being told enough?

Speaker B: I think that the story that has been told a lot has been about the macroeconomic situation of Southeast Asia. And I think it's a function of both easiness and intuitiveness. Right. I think that um, there's a lot of positive things. I mean obviously there's a rising middle class, there's a lot of trade between east and west, uh, Southeast Asia, different countries, different cultures. Uh, uh, but everybody has a hungry population that would love to be entrepreneurial, uh, to be able to rise the income ladder and provide for their families and take technology is just a tool for them to get there. Right. Um, whatever way form or fashion happens, whether it's in agriculture or logistics or supply chain or whatever it is, technology is seen as a way to get there.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And I think that's such a wonderful, um, reality that's there. And I think there's also, I think a very easy set of industry report to do because you pull up World bank, you pull up the numbers and then you kind of see the top line numbers. I think that the stories that are not really told, I would say is a little bit of a barbell. Um, I think on one end I think there isn't sufficient, um, conversation about the realities and difficulties at the ground level, uh, for companies building in Southeast Asia. And on the other hand also not enough nuance around the localization or the opportunities at a ground level as well. Um, so I think they're both functions of not really understanding all, uh, the time or maybe there's not enough, um, what's the word? Um, time to be able to do that level of analysis. But also we're all wondering whether the reader actually wants to get into that level of detail. So what I mean by that is, um, uh, let's talk about the difficulties. I think there are significant challenges in Southeast Asia. I think go to market is a big part. Um, I think there's a, um, you know, income, uh, you know, levels are important to be thoughtful about. Right. I mean, you know, we look at it, it's like, okay, we're like, there's a billion people in this, you know, circle. Right? But then of course, you know, kind of like when you look at India, you look at China, you have to be thoughtful about, you know, what's the size of the middle class versus the upper class. Um, um, how are you being thoughtful about how you enter the go to market and so, so forth. So I think there's a lot of nuance around, go to market, um, and then also being thoughtful about middlemen, local, uh, power structures that, you know, navigate and be part of. And also, you know, these countries have often sizable macroeconomic risk. Right. Um, at the individual level. Right. So countries, um, we saw in the recent, um, you know, energy crisis that we saw, um, you know, one year ago, nobody would have predicted that energy, oil and gas would be a shortage dynamic, uh, um, that will impact Southeast Asia so hard. And now you see that it's impacting some countries a lot worse than others. Right. I think Singapore is doing fine, uh, because Singapore is, uh, well developed, has a lot of reserves, is, uh, oil refining hub, so it continues to have access to oil and gas. Uh, but on the other hand of the spectrum, you have the Philippines, which is an island archipelago which, uh, is highly dependent on gas, um, and certain refinery dynamics. And so for them, there are villages that are currently on emergency power. Right. Effectively because they don't have the energy that they can access. Right. Um, and so these, um, macroeconomic shocks, um, are difficult because you can't painted one brush to say the whole of Southeast Asia is impacted by energy. Malaysia is doing okay because they are producing oil and gas with Petronas. Uh, you know, Brunei obviously is an oil and gas producer, so they don't have an issue. But, uh, Vietnam has an issue. Right. Uh, so it's very difficult to do analysis because suddenly you're like, okay, this is not a clean headline. You know, like, China is X, India is Y. Southeast Asia is a one, a two, a three, a four, a five, a six. Right. So it gets very, um, difficult to talk about that. But that level of nuance needs to be there because then you start to appreciate, I think, the challenges of those businesses. Right. Because your agritech business that was based on fertilizer and inputs and plastics, uh, and chicken feed, suddenly is viable still in one country, but is no longer currently viable in another country, depending on how long this oil crisis is. Right. So I think that's that level of difficulty that's there at the ground level. Right. On the other hand, at the ground level, there's actually a lot of opportunities as well, because obviously the headlines are really about AI models, supercompute, et cetera. But I always tell people that if you take a step back is that, you know that a country like Malaysia will continue to develop for the next 10, 20 years.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: You know that Indonesia will continue to develop the next 10 to 20 years, you know that Vietnam will have to develop over the next 10 to 20 years. And so there's actually a lot of opportunities, but they are going to be at one level more fundamental and two, uh, more patience is going to be required. And so does that necessarily fit into the classic, um, Western, or I would say Silicon Valley type of venture capital model? Right, And I think that's the crux of it because I have friends who are doing good business just servicing air conditioning. Right. And the truth is, if you go to M, Malaysia, Vietnam, the one thing everybody is agreed on is that they want to buy more of is they want to buy more air conditioning, uh, because it's hot, it's tropical. Right, True. Um, very true. And so you know that in the next 10 to 20 years that people are going to buy more air conditioning and with more air conditioning there are going to be more maintenance requirements, uh, but it's not going to be an LLM wrapper, et cetera. So what kind of business do you have to build with that? What kind of financing do you have with that? What kind of teaming do you have with that? Um, and are you comfortable doing that, uh, when you could just work for Google or Meta, uh, or Apple as your batna career? Um, I think that's a big part of it for a lot of the folks. And so, um, I think that's where I think I meet a lot of people in Southeast Asia who kind of say, like, okay, I'm from X great company and I want to build this great technology company, but I realized that I can't build it because the businesses that people want to buy are uh, a lot more fundamental. And I feel conflicted. And I'm like, well, isn't that an opportunity if there's no florist that's really good in your city that can consistently deliver flowers within a certain amount of time with personalization and can do it at a corporate level in America, that's a solved problem. But it's not a solved problem in Southeast Asia, um, to have corporate level gift hampers. Right, but that's a totally different business you had to build. And so I think that's the three pieces. I think people understand the macro, but I think people are not close enough to the difficulties at the ground level, but also not patient enough and thoughtful about the localized opportunities in Asia as well.

Speaker C: And you also earlier talked about the climatic capital, uh, flowing into the region. So is climate genuinely Southeast Asia's next big category or is it still early or is there any sector who you think is going to be, you'll have the next set of you know, big startups coming.

Speaker B: Well, I think industry thesis really fundamentally has to be broken down at the country level, right. Uh, I think looking at Southeast Asia is a very difficult uh, category because again Singapore is very different from Indonesia which is very different from India, know Malaysia which is very different from Vietnam. Right. And so um, I think writing an industry thesis at regional level is probably um, too broad a um, brush to do. I think that's one, um, two is uh, you know there are certain thesis obviously that are important and I think another way to think about is they should play to the country's strengths, right? Um, I wouldn't go to the North Pole and say, hey, I want to build a business on sand mining because, uh, there isn't sand mining in the North Pole, right. Uh, I think it will also be um, banned to do so. But it's just a fundamental mismatch between the geography and the business model. Right. And so I think when you look

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Speaker B: I think you'd be quite tough and say, okay, if you're in Singapore, what are the strengths that Singapore has?

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: You know, Singapore strengths are maritime, middleman, commodities trading, finance, uh, hub, security hub, um, biotech hub in terms of pharma, healthcare services. Um, so I think being thoughtful about saying, okay, these are the verticals that Singapore are good at and I'm happy to build a company that has that, you know, vertical. Right. Um, so for example, uh, you know, one uh, you know, set of startups I've been quite interested in seeing actually has been quite a lot of the um, you know, shipping and I would say um, maritime, um, dynamic. Right. And I would say that's quite uniquely Southeast Asian in the sense that there's a lot of trade that flows through Southeast Asia. I mean if you go back to the Roman and the, you know, Indian and the Chinese empires, they were trading silk, tea and everything in between and a lot of it went through Southeast Asia, right? So this has been going back for thousands and thousands of years the uh, flow of trade through Southeast Asia. And so I think there's been quite a lot of interesting um, you know, approaches to that, whether it's from like um, you know, uh, various startups that I can think of. Some of them are doing for example logistics, uh, and you know, container tracking. Right. In a fast response to various crypto crisis tracking, et cetera. I um, think that's one of them, uh, others I'm interested in see is like for example would be um, the cleaning of ships actually is quite interesting. So historically for example barnacles, it would be done by humans for example or you have to go into a dock to scrape those barnacles off. But now you can use underwater robotics to get it done. Right. Um, and so um, Singapore is part of you know, either number one or number two port in the world in terms of traffic and volume. Um, and so it's a great place to build a global business on um, ship cleaning. Right. And so I think these are the kind of like country by country thesis they need to be thoughtful about as well. Um, so Malaysia obviously is a great center for semiconductors, right? Globally, um, in Penang, et cetera. And so there's actually an interesting cluster of semiconductor startups that are actually emerging there as well.

Speaker C: Current interesting. And you've been a investor through um, orville and uh, Howard 11A and you made more than 50 plus personal investments with 100k plus checks. So what's your filter for ES at that stage? Are you focusing on only AI startup? Because that's been the trend. But uh, what do you look for when you're looking to invest at early stage?

Speaker B: I'm not going to say anything super interesting because for me it's really got to be a great team, great uh, product, um, and great business model. I think that's the heuristic that I think I'm thoughtful about. I think what I can say that I'm a little bit different about is being upfront that this is a Olympic level race, um, and not a uh, pass fail threshold. So what I mean by that is that I think, you know, if I told you, I said hey Rohit, I know you're not an Olympic swimming coach, but how would you select a great swimmer for the Olympics? You would probably say the same thing as every coach would say, right? Which uh, would be I want somebody who is, is you know, good at it physically. Somebody who has a good perseverance, right. And mindset about it. And thirdly, uh, somebody who I can work with, right. To really improve to the next level. Right. I don't think you're going to say anything very different than most people saying that. Right. Um, I think what's different Is that at an Olympic level, um, you would be going to the regional meets, you'll be going to the local meets, you'll be. And then you'd be looking for, you know, the diamond in the rough, right? I think the number one, number two, number three, the top folks, right? Um, and so I think that when it comes to, you know, enjoy investing, you know, as a personal individual, um, you know, I'm walking into a gym, right? And in this gym, you know, there's 100 people, everybody's working out, everybody's there to get stronger, get fitter, etc. And my job is to pick the top three right out of the hundred, you know, um, and so if you're number four, number five, number six, um, well, maybe this year is not the time that it's going to be your, uh, pick. Maybe you need another one or two more years in the gym before you get picked. All right. Um, so I think startups is. I think what I'm trying to say here is, like, the criteria is not going to be the magic sauce of it. It's really, I think, the bar at which you select it to be. Right? Um, and so, um, yeah, you know, if you go to a bodybuilding competition, you need great upper body, a great lower body, and a great charisma. You got to have all three of them, right? You can't. If you have a great upper body and you have a bad lower body and you have a terrible smile, you ain't going to crack the bodybuilding championship, right? So if you have two out of three, you're not going to crack the bodybuilder championship. You know, you got to have a viable shot of winning three out of three, right? And I think that's, um, where I have the, uh, investor hat. I think my other hat, of course, is as somebody who is a builder and somebody who is also likes, uh, you know, uh, educating and coaching as well, then that's where I kind of do my other hat, right, Via the podcast at, you know, bravesea right dot com. But there I kind of like, share and say, hey, this is how you need to improve. This is what you want to do. Because those are two very different prisms. And I think where people kind of get mixed up a little bit, um, is that get kind of get muddled between both, right? Which is when you're investing, you're investing people that you want to coach, and then you're coaching people that you want to invest in, and they're actually two different things, you know, you know, like I always tell people like, if, if I was an Olympic level coach, and I was like, hey, I want to help secondary school kids swim better because I want to give back, then you shouldn't have a threshold, you shouldn't be picking and say, okay, by the way, you're a terrible swimmer, uh, and you never swam before. I don't want to teach you how to swim. That would be a terrible swim coach. Right? Because you want everybody who'd never had a chance to swim, you want to give them a chance to swim and then you coach them and then you have a mindset that you're just coaching them. Right. And then if your job is to be their agent to the Olympics level, then you get a pick and then. But you're training them very, very, you know, stringently because you're a high performance coach that is in a very, um, you know, tough competition race. Right. And so I think that's where, um, you know, from my perspective, I try to be clear to people, be like, hey, you know, if I'm coaching you, I'm just coaching you not because I want to invest in you, but because I'm just helping you. Um, and my job is to tell you where you're at. And if I'm investing in you, then my job is to invest in you and tell you how to get to the next level. Right. But those are two totally different prisms and I think it can be quite confusing because when I was a founder, that division was not clear to me at all. So I will go to a coach. Right? And then, uh, they actually want to invest in me. And so you're kind of not getting the right advice because it's loaded with the incentives of investing. And then you go to investors and they want to coach you, but they're not really pushing you to the next level. Right. And so that gets really muddled. Right. And so it's not to say that you can't have VCs who do both, but I think VCs who uh, have that credibility and interest in being a player coach, I think they just have to be super crisp about what is an investment decision versus what is a coaching decision. And those are often related, but not always the same, especially when it comes to high pressure situations for startups.

Speaker C: Right, interesting. And for Oreville, you don't lead rounds over there, but uh, I've seen a lot of syndicate leads, um, who have not got any exits in the last couple of years and they are investing into, you know, secondaries for, uh, anthropics. To OpenAI or getting to Series B or CVC, uh, of these hot deals, uh, because there's pressure from LPs that they haven't got the exits. Uh, so what advice you would give to emerging VCs? I know this, this is, you know, a tough time for them to, you know, raise new, new VC funds or to lead those syndicates. And you know, should, should you, you have a reserve capital to uh, double down on your winners or should you invest into uh, growth stage, uh, deals later on for hot startups?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think about this like a two by two, right? For the people who are listing, right? I think there are people who have already deployed most of the capital versus people who have, on the other end of the scale are looking to raise right now, right? Or put together a thesis. So those are two groups, right? Um, and then the other axis, if you think about it, is like high performance versus low performance, right? So if you have already deployed your capital on one end and you're already high performance, then you don't need to listen to me, you're already doing well, you're going to raise your next fund, right? Because you already have high performance for your money you've deployed. Why are you listening to this? Right? So that's one category, right? And they're off to raise the next one. I think the second category is for people who have already deployed capital and they already have low performance. And I think what I tell people in this category is I'm just pretty upfront and just say, look, this job isn't for everybody, right? I'm just saying, just like startup founders, not a job for everybody. For me, being a consultant at Bain, I thought was a job for me, but it turned out not to be a job for me. Um, not every job is for everybody, right? And so what I'm trying to say here is if you already deployed most of your capital and you're not performing, you just have to be thoughtful that you have already deployed your capital, right? You have already deployed 80% of your capital. What you want to do is um, two things. One is really maximize the return, uh, for your existing portfolio. And two is don't do anything stupid. Uh, uh, so what I mean by that is, um, if you really deploy most of your capital, then this is your time to really help out the companies, do the introductions, run the networks, do the legwork and see how you can lift up that portfolio, right? Um, and I've seen situations where even VCs basically say, hey, um, I've deployed 78% of my thing performance is not great, but there's one company or two that's really important. Um, they even say, like, hey, we're not going to call the rest of the capital. I'm going to join the company and I'm going to grow that company. Right? Which is super crazy. But if that company really does, you know, make that phase shift, right, from a decent outcome to close to the home run, um, then this person has done the ultimate portfolio management move. I also say don't do anything stupid because I've seen horror stories of, um, people who just basically go off Band Aid, right? So they start doing funny stuff like investing crypto, um, and it turns out badly, and then they lose all market credibility because they were desperate to juice return. They thought it was a sure bet and then it wasn't a sure bet. Right. You know, on crypto, uh, coins or whatever it is. Um, and you think this is funny, but, you know, you know, it actually has happened, right? I've seen people do it, um, or they go really off bandaid. And I think the interesting part is that, you know, if it pays off, then to some extent, you know, people get forgiven for it, weirdly enough. Right. Uh, but the problem is that in most cases, because you're acting out of desperation, it doesn't work out. Um, and then you burn your credibility and reputation, right? And then you go from a bad vc, uh, who is not very good at deploying capital, which is doable because you can always pivot to a new job, like being an executive or founder or whatever. It is so many things to do in life, uh, to being somebody who went off mandate, off script or did something misleading or fraudulent. Right? And I think that's where you kind of tank your whole career for the future. So I think that's the two quadrants. Obviously, there's another quadrant. It's like you haven't deployed much, uh, of your capital. You're still fundraising early, um, and currently you're either high performance or low performance, but you don't really know. Right. I think for this category, you know, I think just play to your strengths. Um, the market has room for multiple strategies. Um, there isn't going to be one winning strategy, right. I mean, you just had to watch football, right? Or basketball. Any sports game, like, the method changes and everything. And, you know, there are different ways to do the approach. But I think what's interesting about business is not like a basketball competition, right? You know, in the sense that basketball competition is number one, number two, number three, and People only care about number one. But in the land of startups, every startup goes through multiple rounds of funding. The many startups are going to unicorns. Some people become unicorns slowly but are very capital efficient. Some companies become unicorns very fast or more than a unicorn. Um, so there are multiple strategies, there are multiple slots, there are multiple bites of the pie. So there are different strategies. Some people may prefer leading, some people will be player coaches. Some of them are going to be about identifying people in very deep tech approaches. Some people are going to be focused more on momentum investing. Some people are more focused on figuring out, um, startups that fit with national priorities like defense or semiconductor or local supply chain. So there are different approaches. Um, I think you just have to play to the one that you're good at. And this work very, very well with all of the other VCs in the space. Because right now globally almost all VCs are much more collaborative. I think back in the heyday of like the zero interest rate era, VCs were a lot more competitive because there's so much liquidity flowing through the system. So people didn't want to share deals. But now I think people are much more happier to collaborate and say, okay, if you're good at marketing and I'm good at finance and somebody else good at go to market, three vcs coming together to help this company is going to be more powerful than just one. Right. So I think there's something to be thoughtful about, uh, for emerging fund managers.

Speaker C: Got it. Makes sense. And uh, Jeremy, when I reached out to you, uh, I found your profile to be very interesting. You served in the army, then you were paying, you've been a founder, VC, BioNTech, CEO and now CEO. What's the thread connecting all of this and what advice you give to, um, graduates who are graduating out, uh, who are worried about not, you know, AI will take the jobs. And how do you go about, uh, how you've been, you know, successful in moving from one career to another. Any advice for listeners who listening to this?

Speaker B: That reminds me of a time when I was at Harvard and doing my MBA and you know, I had opportunity to hear about, you know, Bridgewater Associates, right, Which is the world's largest hedge fund founded by Ray Dalio. Um, and you know, I wasn't really looking at hedge fund. I don't think that was something I was particularly, you know, kind of saying like this makes sense. But I went by to talk to a recruiter who, um, look at my resume at that point of time, uh, And I was actually blown away because, you know, this person sat down and said, yeah, we like your profile because one thing we noticed is that you, you really like to join high performing teams and you like to build them. And it kind of clicked because I didn't even know that about myself at that point of time. And so before that, I had a very skeptical view of Bridgewater because I was like, ah, ah, what is this team? And I was like, wait a moment. This recruiter for their team, because they're so focused on people and talent, kind of took the time to really understand my resume, including my army experience and all this stuff, and just said, said something that was very revelatory to me, right? So I was like, wow, this person is more aware of my interests than I am self aware of myself. Right? And I thought that was actually a really good moment for me because I think that's always been my consistent theme is I like to join high performing teams and I like to bring together in terms of hiring, motivating and retaining high performers. Right? Um, so that's important because one thing I sometimes tell people when I have conversations, I say, look, you know, I'm not a coach, I'm a high performance coach. What I mean by that is, when it comes to work, I'm not going to be a person who is going to be, you know, everything's great, everything's wonderful. And then, you know, behind your back, you know, I'm saying something different. You know, like, that's not, you know, like, that's very junior league soccer team where, you know, everybody gets a participation trophy and everybody's nice. And then, you know, people go back into the locker room and say, like, okay, this kid is not good at soccer. Right? I mean, but that's what a good soccer coach is supposed to do, right? Because everybody doesn't make sense, um, wants to learn soccer. And so I would not want, you know, a, uh, Manchester United soccer coach at my secondary school teaching my kids soccer because it'll be a total mismatch. I want my kids to enjoy the game of soccer, not to get shouted at, given very strong performance grades and so so forth. Right? That's not the mindset I want to have. Um, so for me, I want to approach it from a very thoughtful way, which is, I always say, as somebody who joins a company, who do I want to work with? Right? Um, and I want to work with somebody who sees my strengths, uh, is thoughtful about my strengths, deploys me to my strengths and puts me in a team of other People who have superpowers and we work together as a team. Um, all together, right? And that is actually such a rare culture to get to have, actually. I mean, it's shocking that we can say this over and over again and we can say this on every podcast and we can say this all the time. And all of us at dinner, at 8pm with friends, over drinks, will have some conversation which is like, wow, my asshole is not, uh, my boss is not nice or whatever it is, right? There's some incompetent person who is an asshole and is destroying the whole team culture. It just keeps happening over and over again where the profess values or organization, it actually does not line up with the actual lived reality of the team. Right. Um, and I think to me, uh, part of it, there's so many root causes and so many reasons for four wires. But for me, I think that's the kind of team I like to work on is, um, I want to be part of a high performing team that's winning together, placing my strengths. Um, um, and I sincerely believe that, um, when we have great people who are motivated and like one another and not assholes to one another work together, they're going to make the company a better place. And when a company is in a better place, they have the profitability and the compensation needed to structure a workplace that retains coaches and retains the talent there. Right? And so it's a positive flywheel that happens. Um, and bad things start happening very obviously when the company starts to underperform, et cetera, and everyone's like, oh, the company's underperforming. Then you're like, well, obviously, because somehow the team's not performing right as a group. And when the team is not performing as a group, then the company's not going to perform. I mean, it's kind of like we've seen that doom loop happen.

Speaker C: Right?

Speaker B: So to me, I think, um, the common thread for me throughout all of it is, you know, when I was an army, you know, I got to see what high performance culture looks like. I got pushed beyond my limits. Um, I did things that I never thought I could do as a teenager and my mind was blown. Like, I never rappled before. You know, I never did road marches of, you know, 30, 40 kilometers. I never shot guns and had the high explosives before. And because at some level, you know, I had some great commanders and instructors and they just did it themselves. They went through the same experience and they just knew I could do it and they got me there. Right? Um, and I Got there. Um, and I think that's really the crux of it is that, you know, I think for every role I've been part of is very much saying, okay, is this a leader that I respect and admire and I want to learn from and do I want to follow them and bring my A game to that team? Right. Um, and then my job is bringing the A game to the team is also help bringing in the junior teammates who report to me, work with me, collaborate with me, you know, and how do we work together as a better team together. Right. And I think a lot of that just, um, is so simple every time I say it. But I just have to say again, the dissonance between what is claimed out there versus delivered reality is so huge that actually a good workplace that's high performing is actually rare.

Speaker C: Correct? No, absolutely. Jeremy, I quickly want to do the top three. What's your favorite business book?

Speaker B: My favorite business writing currently is, uh, 2% by Michael Easter. He's written a few books like the Comfort Crisis and so and so forth. And, um, I enjoy the book because, you know, he's just talking about how most people know that taking stairs is healthy for you. Uh, but only 2% of people actually go and take the stairs even though they know it's healthier for them.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: And so, um, to some extent I think he's building a little bit on obviously another big favorite for people's atomic habits, right. Which is, you know, start small, build the habits, um, dynamic. So I think there's some similarity there, but I found what was, um, helpful was the mindset that, um, the comfort that we desire as humans to engineer into our own lives are also driving a lot of the pain and suffering that we face in our everyday basis. Right.

Speaker C: Um,

Speaker B: the way I think about it often very much is historically, if you wanted to, uh, sorry, I said again, uh, um. So one way to think about it is I think a lot of people struggle to get out of bed, right? And they get out of bed because, um, there's all kinds of reasons, right. You know, uh, they're, ah, in bed, they're using their phones and they're feeling demotivated, et cetera. Right. And to some extent, actually in the book Comfort Crisis, this is a comfort crisis because actually being in your bed with your phone and having food delivered to you is actually a very comfortable place. But actually that cocoon of comfort has actually generated that crisis for you because historically when you woke up, you woke up hungry. And so because you were hungry, you had to get out and leave your cave and go hunt for food and run and hu. And struggle, um, and get some vitamin D, sunlight along the way. Uh, and then you killed a small rabbit and then you ate it and you felt very happy. And then you went to bed and then, uh, you would never, in prehistoric times, uh, ever have somebody be in bed, stuck in bed for the whole day, uh, eating doordash or uber foods or grab food, uh, in bed, right? And so I think it was just helpful because I think we're just saying that the modern work environment we've generated for ourselves, um, are actually not necessarily the same things that will make us happy, right? Um, and in fact, it's not really about happiness, right? It's really about the pursuit of happiness. Um, you know, our willingness, uh, to go through difficulty and challenge and sacrifice. Um, and, uh, it makes me always taught for Loop to say, yeah, I'm happy right now versus I'm unhappy right now. Which I just take it as the temperature, right? The temperature is 18 degrees Celsius. The temperature is 25 degrees Celsius. Is the temperature, right? Um, what I find more interesting is the thermostat, right? Which is, is this something that gives me purpose, right? Because, um, when I was in the army, there were so many times I was very, very unhappy. I can tell that the army is full of moments that make you very unhappy. Like living, uh, uh, in a monsoon, in a jungle, uh, having the water basically go through your body and you trying to sleep while mud is flowing through around you. Right? You're very unhappy at that point of time. But when you have a nice sense of purpose and camaraderie and brotherhood and you have a mission to go from point A to point B, then it's doable, right? Um, it's survivable. And 20 years down the road, it's a fun story that you talk about it on a podcast, right? And say, hey, that was a good time. Even though at that time I can tell you I was very unhappy. Right? And so for me, I think being very thoughtful about the thermostat, right? Rather than temperature, which is instead of thinking about happiness and unhappiness, dingy single, um, is. Does this bring purpose to me? Right? Um, and so for me, a lot of it has to boil down to, you know, my two young children. I have two young girls, a four year old and a six year old. And yeah, you know, they give me a lot of purpose. And there are very many unhappy moments when you're taking care as a parent. There's a lot of sacrifices you have to make. Uh, but you know, at the end of the day they're in bed and everything and you're like well that was kind of worth it. And I was thinking about. And then the more the years go by I'm like, wow, okay, you're super worth it. Right? But you know, on the same day basis in that evening you're only at, it's kind of worth it, right? So you need a couple more years to give that rose colored glass glasses again to be like, oh yeah, it was fun doing the night shift and all that stuff.

Speaker C: Got it makes sense. And if you could go back in that time when you got this world of starters, uh, what is the one thing you would have focused on or done thing differently?

Speaker B: If I could travel back in time, I would tell um, my younger self, um, to create and be thoughtful about my own structure. I think growing up for me I'm very much a, ah, belonger and joiner in the sense that there are institutions I like to join or build, advance, serve, um, and have fellowship together. And I think that is a fantastic um, skill to have. And it still brings me a lot of joy to belong to the various communities I belong to. Um, I think the part that was struggling for me was that I also had this creative itch of being, being comfortable building as well. And the tricky part about building a startup or a new entity, a new team, is that you don't get to belong to the structure of the community because you have to build it. And so I often think to myself, um, of that image, um, that's on the Internet and it shows basically a golden retriever dog, very good, loyal looking and he has a leash on, you know, collar and a leash. And then the leash is in his own mouth and he's just walking with the leash in his own mouth. Right. And I always think about that image all the time because for me, you know, one of my struggles I had was this um, that change, you know, in my career after university and after grad school when I started building my own career, when I had to be my own boss, when I created my own structure. Then you suddenly don't have a boss giving you deadlines, you don't have a ah, deadline or structures or very clear instructions about what to do. And in the army when you have those very clear instructions, you just do them, um, you get it done and you exceed expectations. I think there's a very good joy about it. But when you're the one setting those instructions and creating that dynamic, then you kind of have this dynamic where you're setting a structure for everybody else, which is not that bad, but you got to set a structure for yourself. And so for me, what I've had to learn over time is I have to set my own structures, which is, um, I am going to wake up in the morning and then I am going to play with my kids for 20 minutes and put them up for, you know, school and get it done. And then I'm going to, even though I can work from home, et cetera, I'm just going to travel to the office that's not my home and work there. And I will have blocked off my own calendar.

Speaker C: Uh,

Speaker B: um, my boss, who is the yesterday version of me, blocked off these calendar times and set these deadlines for me. And then I will today do those deadlines and execute the work. Right. Because the past me was the boss. Right. And so I think giving myself that structure, um, and being comfortable with that inflection point would be something that the advice I would give to myself.

Speaker C: Got it. Makes sense. And do you have a, um, favorite online tool, e.g. gmail, Slack, Zoom, ChatGPT?

Speaker B: I think my favorite tool is actually Flow Club, um, company that I tried to angel invest in and I didn't get a chance to do so, but happened during the pandemic. Uh, but it's fantastic because what they just do is basically like peloton but for people working together online. So you basically join a video call and everybody else has their task list and you're supposed to get things done together for one hour, two hours, three hours. Um, and I think the reason why it works is because at some level we're all primates, right? We're all monkeys, right? Monkey see, monkey do. And if you're in a gym and everybody's working out, it's scientifically proven that when you're in that kind of gym environment, you're going to work out harder than if you're going to work out by yourself because you're an environment of people and a tribe of people who are working out hard. Um, similarly, in the army when everybody was pushing themselves to 110%, it felt normal and that everybody was doing it. And therefore we all did it and we all figured out how to handle high explosives at the age of 18. Which is a crazy thing to think about, right? Which uh, is would you trust an 18 year old like me, um, with tons and tons of high explosives? Right now I'm like, I don't know if I would Trust myself and my midlife crisis version of myself to handle tons of high explosives. But at 18 years old, I could do it because people expected me and we all expected one another to be able to do it. So I think Flow Club is interesting because if you're at home or you're traveling or you're in a hotel room because, um, you have to get stuff done, then I think it's just nice to be able to dial into somewhere and basically be in a soul cycle of work. Um, and everybody has to go do their email or taxes or clean their room together, whatever their individual task list is. And, uh, then we kind of check off those tasks together simultaneously over the course of that one hour.

Speaker C: This is so interesting. I want to check this out. We're going to put down the show notes. Uh, Jeremy, what's the best way people can reach out to you and know more about your work? Uh, and your podcast, Brave Podcast, as well as the VC firm that you run, Orville?

Speaker B: Yeah, just go to www.bravesea.com. um, it's a podcast on Southeast Asia tech. I volunteer there by podcasting and teaching, um, and sharing my perspective. Right. Um, and my big, uh, value there is, um, number one, just be direct and upfront. Um, don't sugarcoat things. Because, um, in a teaching environment, and so I'm not your boss, I'm not judging you or whatever it is. So it's a safe environment to learn, uh, about what I'm seeing in the ecosystem. Um, and then two is it's really about bravery, right? And courage is really about, um, action in the midst of fear. Right? Um, because if you are not feeling scared at all, then you're not brave. Right? You're just doing it because I'm not scared of eating a matcha cheesecake. So I eat it. Nobody's going to be like, wow, Jeremy, you're so brave in eating a matcha cheesecake. No, I wasn't fearful of it. I was looking forward to it. That's not bravery. Right. Um, so bravery requires you to be scared of something. And the only requisite action for bravery is that you take action. Right? Small, um, step, big step, in between step. But as long as you take action in the midst of fear, I think it's really important. I think, um, that's something that, uh, I like to discuss, which is bravery in the midst of technology, um, and the Southeast Asia context as well.

Speaker C: We're going to put down in the show notes. Jeremy, thank you so much for taking our time and speaking to us. I really enjoyed my conversation with you.

Speaker B: Thanks for listening to the Life Self Mastery Podcast, where we teach you how to start and grow your online business. Uh, for more information, visit Rohit's blog at www.lifeselfmastery.com.

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