Amplifying the Impact of the Chief Operating Officer

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Hey, there. Welcome to the Life and Leadership Podcast. I'm Teagan Trovato, founder and CEO of Bright Arrow, an executive advisory firm, developing leaders and their teams to navigate complexity and accelerate performance. This show is where we take you behind the scenes of modern executive leadership. Whether you're running an enterprise, leading a division, or preparing for your next level of impact, you'll find insights here that sharpen your thinking and act your growth. Join me as we talk with executives and experts about the real challenges they're facing. Succession, transformation, culture, strategy, and the mindsets and behaviors required to lead through them. If you're ready to think more strategically, operate effectively, care for yourself holistically, and elevate the way you lead your organization, you are in the right place. Let's dive in. Today, we're exploring one of the most misunderstood roles in the C suite, the COO. This role flexes constantly based on the CEO's strengths, the business's needs, and the organization's stage of growth. We're breaking down the competencies, archetypes, and relational dynamics that define truly effective COO leadership. Maggie, thanks for joining me again today.

Speaker A: Oh, this is going to be a good one.

Speaker B: Oh, it sure is. It is a topic we are both passionate about. And that's your role. Yes, the COO role.

Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker B: And, you know, I'm going to share lots of information with listeners that come from some great authorities on the design of the COO role. They're outside of us, but you have a ton of personal experience. You've been a COO at two different companies. Now you and I have our personal experience together, which I think would be lovely for us to just share, pull the covers back a bit and get personal about it. So as we flow today, just jump in and let's color things a little with your own experience as it makes sense.

Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. And also add that in some of the stuff we're gonna talk about today are resources that you pulled from specifically to create this role and to do it well. And I've talked about that on social media before, because, as you mentioned, this is my second COO role. And I think that it was really gorgeous to have the opportunity to come in and to have the CEO go, hey, I read some books on this. You actually wrote the job description separating the CEO and COO role. And so I just think that there's a lot here that we can frame up for people, and I can definitely add my personal experience, but let's talk all about the whole thing.

Speaker B: Yeah. And, uh, you know, Layered into this conversation is that we have coached so many coos. We've coached so many CEO COO relationship dynamics. So Maggie has her experience of the role. I have my experience of creating the role in my company and the privilege of working with a CEO like Maggie. And then I also have gotten to be up close to a lot of COOs and COO CEO relationships through our work at Bright Arrow. So we have examined this thing to death, probably. But I wouldn't say many folks are reading books on the COO role. But we have. And so we're so cool. We are cool. Oh, my God. We will put in the show notes links to some of the resources and articles we mentioned because they were so informative. And I'm so appreciative that there were some authors who took the time to really be thoughtful about this. So, first of all, let's start with the beginning and why the COO role is so misunderstood. It is quite misunderstood.

Speaker A: Well, and this came up in a lot of the books because when you survey this role, when you look at it, there's so many places where a COO dips in to certain functional areas. And so I think that that makes it challenging to really form. And so CFOs run finances, CHROs take care of people or deliver strategic people operations, CIOs deliver tech strategy, but operations that span changes depending on the functional area that you're supporting. And, uh, like I mentioned earlier, you're kind of dipping into a lot of those things and considering operations through multiple functional lanes.

Speaker B: Yeah, and it also flexes depending on the CEO's strengths, so the company's need, but then also how does the CEO fit in and how do you fit around that role and integrate with that role? And so I think that's part of what also makes it challenging. And then it, of course is going to keep evolving with the business. So what's wild is the CEO a lot of companies need today may not be the COO they need tomorrow, which is very similar to the CEO role. There's types of CEOs, I'm using air quotes, who are really good at leading certain types of chapters. For companies, that is also true for the CEO role. Now, a lot of COOs can flex and grow and change alongside of the business, and some are clear that they aren't interested in it or they can't do it. And when I say they're not interested in it, meaning they are turnaround COOs, they like getting in when it's messy and calming a culture. For example, and they're going to be bored with steady state leadership. So it's not a downside that some COOs aren't going to change alongside of the business. And I don't mean that in a limited way, but really in a rather dramatic way. That's actually a COO who knows their superpowers and has standards for their own work satisfaction.

Speaker A: Yeah. And when you talk about the evolution of a organization, there's certainly where the business is headed, but there's also the evolution of the people inside of it. And one of the things that I have found is, in both roles, that I've enjoyed being a part of the growth, is that once the CEO had an effective COO in that seat, doing, carrying that piece and partnering with them. And we can talk more about this in the episode where we talk about interdependencies between CEOs and COOs. But, uh, to the point of evolution, you know, it's been gorgeous for me to get to watch the evolution of the CEO and then to find my place in that and partner in those strengths. And so to your point about flexing in different ways in relationship to the CEO, that's definitely been my experience. And watching CEOs settle into that and finding their own place within it.

Speaker B: Yeah, man, I feel so much love for you as you talk about that. I know that was more for our listeners to just understand the structural components of the COO role, but I've lived that alongside of you, and you've lived that alongside of me, and I'm, like, touched when you say you've watched CEOs evolve and you've changed yourself along with it. I'm paraphrasing. I'm like, yeah, man, you really have. Maggie, thank you so much.

Speaker A: Well, and likewise, you know, you and I have had this conversation where it's like, okay, now that you are moving into this direction with the organization and growing things in this way, where am I settling into these other pieces? And it's so cyclical. Everything's playing into each other.

Speaker B: So, yeah, Bennett and Miles call this role structurally unique air quotes. Because it's the only C suite role that's defined by another leader's profile. Uh, and I don't think we have enough respect for that enough. Or as frequently as we need to and as constantly as we need to. And, you know, as we're saying this, I don't want to be overly emphatic about how much the COO flexes because we're not talking about someone who's a pushover or A chameleon. We're talking about a super sophisticated strategist. Like the ability to keep changing their capacities and what they become experts in overnight and their ability to flex an entire organization into running. It's why I read books before I wrote the job description of the COO for my own company, because it is so complex.

Speaker A: Yeah. There's this funny aspect where my kids were like, what do you do for a living?

Speaker B: I can't wait to hear how you answered.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, I had to go ask ChatGPT to put it in terms of third grader could understand.

Speaker B: Oh, that's cool.

Speaker A: Because, like, I was like, P and L. Is he gonna get that? No. So. So in my own consideration of how do we describe the COO role in my own experience, what it feels like. I do think the Swiss army knife feels relevant. You are leveraging different tools at, uh, different times based on the company's needs, based on the CEO's needs. A COO is also doing deep dives into, into the organization to understand systemically what's happening in any given area and then pulling back up to view the strategy. You use the word in another podcast, a strategic altitude. And so I have found over my time in different businesses that I'm diving. There's the problem. You understand the problem. You're diving down into the system, looking at it from all of these different angles through the lens of this challenge, this problem that you've got to solve for the organization, and then coming back up to think back in systems, to pull all of the right levers, to use all of the right tools. So when you said Swiss army knife, I was like, yes, I do think that feels, feels relevant. But, you know, I think there are different types. That's my experience of being a coo, but I know that there have been, um, some different archetypes that have been developed, and so I'd love to dive into those and talk about them a little bit. Will you take us through those?

Speaker B: Yes. Well, and let's give credit to how these were developed first. So there's a book called Riding Shotgun. It's one of the things we'll link to. And the author of this book has defined seven archetypes. And Maggie, listen closely because I want to hear where you think you fall. I think you're a blend of two, but we'll see what you think.

Speaker A: Oh, this could be good.

Speaker B: Yeah. The first archetype is the executor. So they run the day to day operations so the CEO can focus externally. Two is the change agent. So they're brought in specifically to lead transformation and turnaround. I referenced that kind of profile earlier. They're the mentor. So that's the third archetype. The mentor supports an early stage or visionary CEO that's usually founder led. Four is the other half. So they complement the CEO's style or skill, filling gaps. Five is the partner. So she refers to this as two in a box. Quote two in a box. This is a co leadership model. So there's constant collaboration and shared decision making. Six is the heir apparent. So the COO is groomed to be the CEO. And Ernst and Young has found that nearly half of all internal appointments came from COO seats. What I'd also like to point out is that half of them did not. Right. So like, I think a lot of times we just assume the COO is next in line. And that is not true all the time and for lots of good reasons. There's a lot of brilliant, budding CEOs in other seats. But also, I want to take a moment to make this point. There are lots of COOs that are like, I am not interested in the CEO role. My genius is number two, we have some of those clients. I personally have one of those clients right now that's like, I am the operator and I will always be. And there's so much power in that clarity.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And then number seven is the mvp. So the COO role is used to retain a high value executive. So it can be be. This is a rotational role for someone that is in a holding pattern for something else. But this is going to help them get that stretch. So you really should not be hiring a coo. And this is where I was before we created your role years ago, Maggie, without knowing the archetype we need. That is why when Maggie joined, I had this entire matrix of here's what the CEO will do, here's what the COO does, here's the center line where we're going to collaborate on things. And so I'll pause. Maggie, do you have a feeling on which you are? I just don't think you're one. I mean, you're working in a small company, right? So like, you're wearing a lot of versions of this hat, perhaps, but what comes up for you?

Speaker A: Well, you know, back to this. With army knife, you play to these different aspects of the role throughout the course of the role. And so, yeah, there are definitely pieces of a, uh, COO archetype in every coo. But I would say there's three that I find Myself in first is the other half. I mean, that should kind of be obvious given the fact that I've worked with two CEOs, I've watched them evolve, and I found my place in what I can offer to the organization next to this other executive. So that makes sense that I'd see myself in that. And the other one is the change agent. I am very comfortable in change. I have a low risk tolerance for change or a high risk tolerance for change. My point is I enjoy building things. I enjoy seeing a vision and building something. And also I've worked in smaller high growth companies, so that would make sense as well. And then the third one is the mentor. And I think there's a significant part of my role that I enjoy getting to and this plays into my background in corporate wellness and corporate culture and just the people aspect of things. So I see myself in the mentor as well, being able to effectuate, uh, change when it comes to the vision and bringing the people along to that vision and creating a culture where people want to be. So I see myself in those three. But for sure, the other half takes the cake.

Speaker B: Yeah, that one is the top one for me. When I think of you two and when I think of how we designed this role, what I feel like you're flirting into with me a lot is the partner, the two, uh, in a box. Because we very clearly designed this role so that I could be multiplied and I would be outward facing, then you would be primarily inward facing, making sure everything is running so I can be out in the world. And there's a lot of collaboration between us as a result. I don't consider myself the expert in all the things we're doing inside of this company. And I'm so happy to say that I consider you the expert in some of those things. And I look to you to tell me what might be best in some of our functional areas. And I think we really collaborate and go back and forth on negotiation, even if we need to. And the whole point for me was to have two brains this size running this thing. So I'm grateful for that.

Speaker A: Well, and you mentioned earlier that there are COOs. 50% of COOs don't move into a CEO role. You know, as you were talking about that, I was like, oh, you know, I'm one of those people that would probably say I don't desire to be in a CEO role when I. And part of that is I do like diving down into a problem. And I think that it is critical that CEOs not do that. Mm, mhm. Cool.

Speaker B: I love you for that. That's music to my ears. Thanks. Please keep going.

Speaker A: We have talked about this a lot. The CEO has got to live into the meaningful outside. They've got to stay connected to what's happening in the marketplace and the trends, all of these pieces. And if you're diving down into the weeds of a thing, you're not effectively staying at that right lane. In the right lane when it comes to that. So you architecting this role with the clarity of wanting the other half and the partnership makes a lot of sense. And also I am somebody who is really comfortable and prefers to continue to do that. Fascinating problem solving, more so than I want to be out in the world. If that makes sense.

Speaker B: It makes sense to me and I bet it makes sense to a lot of people listening. And I know if some of our clients are listening, I can think of them by name. The ones that are like, amen, yes, that's me. Whether they're talking about me or talking about you. Right. And you know what I think is so lovely about the COO role is that everything we've shared is true no matter how big the company is. And that's true for CEOs of even if it's a growing company like ours versus a really huge company, conceptually, we're all largely doing the same work, just at different scales. Same skills are needed mostly. Well, actually, let's talk about that. Let's talk about skills. So Ernst and Young's research was super clear on this topic. So they found that 87% of COOs say the number one requirement is leadership in interpersonal skill, not operational expertise. So the reason the COO is the integrator. So they are holding every function accountable, building bridges across silos and functions, and managing. You've said this well, Maggie. All the complexity that nobody else can. So I'd love to get your reaction to that. What you might add there.

Speaker A: Yes, uh, it's a no brainer to me in my experience, I mean, I have lived as a COO through organizations where the interpersonal dynamics were really challenging. And then, you know, this one where they're delicious, they're incredible, you know, a gem, a rare find in interpersonal relationships here at Bright Arrow, which we should expect from our executive advisory firms. But to the point of what specifically makes this important as a coo, if you are sitting with some complexity or an issue that's arising in the organization or a growth that needs to happen, and you have to dive down and understand that priority from everyone Else's lens. The people who get that work done need to be understood and heard. You have to be really good at, uh, listening to people who do the work day in and day out. Because ultimately what you're going to do is figure out a different way to do that work to get to the thing that you need. And you're going to need to bring them along and they're going to need to trust you, that you listened to them, that you heard their concerns. What they qualified is deeply important. And that's interpersonal work. Making sure that people feel trusted and heard and understood and as, uh, a part of the solution. Right, because you're going to bring them along. And I have been in enough conversations where I've outlined the next thing and watched the discomfort to know how important it is to get that right. And I've gotten it wrong. And I've had to backtrack and go, okay, tell me what I missed. Because if you didn't get that interpersonal piece right, if you can't lead the whole forward, like systems and problems and processes are easy. They get laid out on spreadsheets. They're puzzles. Interpersonal relationships are the thing that will ensure that that process that you laid out goes nowhere if you didn't get that piece right. Mhm.

Speaker B: What I hear you describing is that coos Architect calm. That's what comes up for me when you say that.

Speaker A: Yeah. I'll add that to my LinkedIn. That sounds great.

Speaker B: It's your new LinkedIn headline.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I'm hearing like systems thinker, they're organizational designers or culture protectors, they're strategic executors. And that is very much how I would view that role across all of our clients. It makes sense.

Speaker A: I also wonder because we think about COOs as operators, which feels so deeply functional. The word operator is mechanistic. It doesn't conjure thoughts of interpersonal relationships. So I think that a lot of CEOs would probably be like, yes, this is where I spend the majority of my time. But maybe haven't even really identified for themselves how much of a priority that is in their role.

Speaker B: Yeah. M. I appreciate you calling that out. The language does not match the sophistication. Let's talk about their superpowers of this role. And here's what I think distinguishes outstanding coos from the rest. And see what your thoughts are here too, Maggie. But they can see across the whole system. They manage ambiguity better than anyone. They thrive on complexity. Anything else you would add there will

Speaker A: complexity and also change Uh-huh. They are thriving in that. That's energetic to them, and they develop rhythm is the other thing that I would add, because of all the other skills that a COO is deploying. The comfort in ambiguity, the, uh, comfort in change doesn't always make them the best, probably at affecting rhythms and cadence, but they are the keepers of those things to ensure that they are a strategic priority. So that's the other one that I would think about, and I do think, you know, seeing across the whole system. I want to touch on that for a minute, just because CEOs, and I mentioned this earlier, are often thinking about bottlenecks in multiple functional areas. And so while the CFO absolutely has interdependencies with a chro, and a CHRO has interdependencies with the chief sales or development officer, you know, all of these things we know as an executive team, there are interdependencies. People are working together. They understand each other's roles. I think a superpower of a COO is bringing in that listening that you did in the deep dive, bringing that back up within the executive team, because you are listening for what's happening in everyone's lane so that you can bring everybody along at that level as well. When you're recognizing different bottlenecks and different challenges, or if you are responsible for a strategic priority in an organization, you have a responsibility to oftentimes develop that global strategy and to also ensure that it cascades down into the organization through all levels. And to do that, you really have to be able to understand the dynamics that are happening for your peers and bring them alongside that change as well.

Speaker B: So I hear two other superpowers in the mix there. I heard having the ability to identify and use language and clarity to align teams and functions. And the other one that comes up for me that was implicit, not explicit, was that they do that emotional labor of keeping the company calm that was just seeded all through the things you described. As I was like, this is intellectual. It's relational, intellectual, relational. And then I'm like, well, there's actually. It's all tied together with an emotion and constant emotional work and thinking.

Speaker A: So I'm going to add just one quick thing. When we think about bottlenecks, if people aren't ready, if there's some conflict, if there's some other emotional aspect that is preventing better operations, better strategy, you name it, like, that is as important, or the emotional aspect of all of this can be as great, if not a greater disruptor to everything else.

Speaker B: So, yes, I Totally agree. Oh, thank you for emphasizing that. I very much agree. And Cotter would agree to change expert out there.

Speaker A: I love when I agree with Cotter.

Speaker B: You know, I think the COO role is becoming more strategic to your point. You know, CEOs are helping to shape strategy. They're identifying growth opportunities. They're even leading innovation soup to nuts inside of companies. So that is if you haven't listened, listeners, to our other episode on succession planning. Whether it's come out or not, since we've recorded this. This is part of that pipeline thinking for CEO succession, because COOs are out there co leading, co designing, sometimes fully designing the strategy that's going to help actualize the vision for the CEO. So let's talk about now what a lot of CEOs get wrong about the COO role. You know, I'll say, as I have personally coached relationships between CEOs and COOs. One of the top mistakes I see CEOs make is misunderstanding how to use their COO. And a, uh, lot of that has to do with misunderstanding which archetype your COO is. Or maybe you understand that, but you didn't understand which archetype your company needed. So a couple ways to look at that. So top mistakes I see expecting the COO to be the fixer instead of the strategist. So if you wanted a janitor archetype, that wasn't on the list.

Speaker A: Oh, no.

Speaker B: Oh, that was rude. Another, you know, way we see this go wrong is, uh, delegating everything messy to the coo, but giving them no real authority to go and do anything about it. That is just hell for everyone. Anybody, not just the coo. Not defining decision rights for your coo. And by the way, if you have listened to any of our podcasts, then you have heard us talk about the importance of decision rights on the executive team. It's particularly important between the COO and CEO. They are may mistakenly be using their COO as a shield instead of a partner. And that, actually I could. I've seen that happen so innocently. That sounds so sinister. But most CEOs are not that sinister. You know, they are just so focused. That kind of CEO will be so focused on the outside that they're like, keep me clean so I can just go, you go take the hits. And then the COO doesn't want to bother their CEO and wants to keep them free. And then they may not be communicating back to the CEO all of the hits they're taking, many of which they should not shoulder or not shoulder on their own, all of these innocently happen. I think this is one that can very, very much slip into this category quickly. And then another mistake is the CEO assuming that the COO shares their mental model. And we talked about the archetypes, there are some where you want them to share that mental model, but we need to be conscious of, again, if that is what we have created in the relationship or if they actually think very differently from us to the point where we can't understand each other. And the CEO may not be doing a great job of aligning, uh, expectations and painting clear pictures.

Speaker A: Well, and I want to jump in because in this list I can clearly see where the COO can trip as well. And like you said, it's not sinister, but, you know, becoming the fixer, raising your hand and saying, like, I got this. And when you're a good, uh, partner, you want to be able to showcase your ability to step into some things and solve for them. But if that becomes the constant, then you can easily end up in that role. And it can be easy then when things arise for your CEO to turn and look at you and go, okay, there's a mess. Here you go. And again, COOs do have a responsibility to step in when there's mess. I think what we're talking about here is the CEO needs to be a part of that as well, right? I don't think it was rude to call it a janitor. I think that's probably how it feels to both parties when that's happening, right? Like clean up on aisle nonsense. The other thing is, you mentioned, CEOs can not define decision making rights when you don't have clarity as a coo, ask, you know, just make sure that you have clarity on who's doing what. Especially if you're a team like ours, we do a lot of co creating and so getting clear, ending phone calls, ending meetings by saying, okay, let's make sure who's doing what right, and who's going to make the final call on this or when you can get stuck as the fixer. You don't often ask for that clarity, right? Because you just want to go be the hero in the situation. And so there have been times when I know I've said to you, I feel out of my depth on this one, I need more support in that final decision. And like, that's a really healthy relational dynamic between a CEO and a CEO. And then the using a CEO as a shield instead of a partner, I'm going to tell a CEO what it looks like. When you're doing the opposite again, here's why. Sometimes the COO moves into a shield position and there's good reason for that one. You have the rapport and the trust you've built when you've done those deep dives and you've done the listening. And so you can step in and be that person who bridges the gap between the people and the executive team or, uh, the issue and the growth, whatever the case may be. But what it looks like when the CEO is not entirely always relying on a COO is when the COO is taking way too much heat. Then oftentimes the CEO will step in to do some blocking and tackling to create some communication and clarity about a strategic priority. So then it gives the COO the bandwidth to then maneuver into that thing because they've got some air cover on that. There's a give and take with that. I've experienced that from both CEOs that I've worked with when there's been too much heat coming from the organization systemically, some maneuvering in and saying, hey, this is the thing we're going to do, you know, using some of that authority, the positional authority to create some space for the COO. And CEOs and COOs oftentimes think a lot alike. They're good partners, they're good co creators because they share mental models. And so again, I think creating space to say, if we think a lot alike, what might we be missing? That list feels true and also that there's a lot more nuance to it.

Speaker B: It's co owned.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I'm hearing it's a co owned list. Right. So I appreciate you balancing that out and giving real, you know, here's the symptoms of this is happening. This is how a CEO might know. So I appreciate that. Well, Maggie, I think we could go on and on about this, but I do know we have plans to talk m in more depth for our listeners about the CEO COO roles in the dynamics between them. Just a light touch, just to be able to give a little more view to that. So thank you so much for giving your list lived experience today for our listeners as part of their own, broadening their perspective of this role and demystifying it a little bit.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. It was a fun conversation.

Speaker B: The COO role is structurally unique and incredibly demanding. When the COO and CEO are aligned, the entire organization stabilizes and accelerates. Understanding the nuances of this role isn't just valuable for COOs. It's essential for anyone who partners with them or relies on their leadership.