Engineering Leadership in Motion: Growth, Change & Building Teams That Thrive

Speaker A: M. Foreign. Hello and welcome to the let's Talk Leadership Podcast. The platform where inspirational leaders from the tech, digital and business world share their insights, experiences and, um, learnings. I'm your host, Sondra Patel, and I'm thrilled to bring you conversations with some of the brightest minds and most passionate leaders in the industry from across the world. Whether it's about navigating challenges, driving innovation, or building diverse and inclusive teams, this podcast is all about learning from the very best. Each episode is an opportunity to hear real stories of success, personal growth, and how our guests are giving back to the community. And it's also a chance for me to learn right alongside you. So get ready to be inspired, motivated, and, um, equipped with the knowledge to take your leadership journey. Journey to the next level. Hello and, um, welcome to the let's Talk Leadership Podcast. In this episode today we sit down with Anna Varisian to explore her dynamic leadership journey through the world of engineering. Anna shares how she navigated shifts between individual contributor and leadership roles, what it's been like to stepping into her position as ah, deputy CTO currently, and how she approaches change with a focus on people and, um, growth. Anna opens up about her lessons that she's learned along the way and, um, the advice that she would give her younger self. And I hope everyone, you all find this inspirational, um, and interesting, uh, in your journey. Good morning, Anna. How are you?

Speaker B: Hello, Sandra. I'm good. And how are you today?

Speaker A: Good, I'm very good, thank you. It's a Friday, so I'm, uh, yeah, better than most. Is fab. Well, lovely to have you on the podcast. What I'd like to do is just sort of, obviously I've done a little bit of an intro in terms of what we're going to, um, discuss and share, um, today. But I'd like to start from the beginning just to give our listeners some context in terms of how it all kind of started for you. What drew you into engineering and how did that path lead you into leadership?

Speaker B: Yeah, I'll start probably from the first times of, um, my lessons or the first time when I started to enjoy the software engineering programming. So during the high school I earned a free ticket to the computer summer camp. And then when I was going to this computer summer cup, we had a free time of playing with computers and there was the first time and actually instead of playing, I started to write the programs with using basic. And then I understood that I really enjoy writing the programs instead of playing the games. And when I came back from this summer, uh, camp Back to home. I told my parents that I wanted to go to computer science and software engineering. So it was a change. I didn't plan that time uh, because I understood I really enjoy writing the software programs and make people happy when they are running. So when I went to the uh university and I started to write and learn, I also understood while I'm learning and writing myself, I like when I'm coaching and mentoring other people, my classmates, um, sometimes I was enjoying their marks more than my own marks. I can be honest with you because I think the outcome of this work and then I also like to build the teams for the projects and all the things there and probably this is how I ended up in the engineering and also this is how I started to understand that leadership is something that I'm enjoying and my path there probably is also help people to grow and learn more and try uh, to build a care for their um, professional life as well. So this is how my journey started. Sandra.

Speaker A: Wow, that's fantastic. I absolutely love that. I mean I hear stories quite often um, that people, you know, as a, a very young age start kind of, you know, playing around with computers and things like that. But it's um, yeah, it's so lovely to hear when you hear journeys like that like this because it's so difficult. I mean I remember when I went to university and I still had no idea what I wanted to do. Um, I had absolutely no idea. So I think you know, it's just amazing that you kind of just naturally knew what your calling was and um, yeah, love that. And it's great that you quite early on knew that working with people and helping people to grow was something that you were going to be passionate um, about. Fantastic. And then you've moved between individual contributor and leadership roles during your career, um, and you've, you know, you've naturally progressed from um, obviously hands on technical software engineering positions into more leadership roles. What drove you um, I guess to those um, transitions and how have they um, benefited your growth over time?

Speaker B: Yeah, thanks for the question Sandra. Really nice question because it helps me to open part of myself um, when doing my professional life I understood, actually my growth is dependent on understanding what I really want. So waking up early morning and trying to understand this is Anna, uh, what you like to do and this is how you can grow. So when I transitioned from the individual contributor to a manager first time I was thinking this is exactly what I wanted to do and I was very happy, I can say that. So I was happy that I am having the team and I'm actually mentoring them. And I also was doing my individual uh, contributor tasks. But there was a moment that I started to be afraid of that I'm losing the pink hands on, right? Because I'm too much in many meetings and then I'm, I might be losing the domain knowledge. So that was not true. But it was the wrong feeling that a lot of leaders are having during the first years of their career. So I started to think, maybe I'm losing the focus on being a good engineer, then I should transition back of being the individual contributor. When I transitioned back to the individual contributor, I started to feel the opposite. I started to feel, oh my God, I know how to mentor and coach people. Now I don't have the opportunity. I know how to develop the plan for the team, but I cannot do that. Then I started to think, uh, Anna, but why you are actually afraid of combining both? Why you don't think that you can have both capabilities inside one role. Then I figured out myself as a leader and as an individual contributor, it's possible to combine both. It's just about finding right balance. When I transitioned back to the management, I already knew what I'm looking forward to have. So if I can research about the new technologies, if I can do the proof of concepts for myself to understand what is the engineering capability there, uh, sometimes reviewing the code, so understanding the diagrams, the architecture, doing it myself. So I was able to combine both. So now um, what I can say, I'm really enjoying this transition between the domains. Switching the domains and also being the individual contributor manager several times helped me to be adaptive to the change. So it helped me now to try uh, to figure out quickly so what is the issue here? Also trust people know who can fix it, whom I should contact and also building the team, uh, what I am proud of. So all those transitions probably at the end, uh, helped me to become a better leader for my team.

Speaker A: Oh, fantastic. Love that. And you've just stepped into recently, haven't you as Deputy cto? Um, what, what's that transition been like? And um, yeah. Uh, have you had any challenges or you know, kind of surprises or anything that you weren't expecting to kind of deal with?

Speaker B: Yeah, no challenges, but probably surprises. Yes, I was not expecting that. My days can be so different from each other. So one day I can be really focusing on the leadership, ah, related things, helping the team, uh, to develop, uh, understand what should be producted, uh, production, development, roadmap, what team uh, should deliver the. Another day I can really Be focusing on researching what is new, what kind of concept I can implement. So doing the pocmis and the third day can be totally not uh, related to engineering itself. It can be what I'm talking with cross functional teams, reading this policy, writing this document, trying to figure out what is the best for the organization. What I love, even if it's surprising. So I'm trying to balance it correctly. So I love in my role that actually so interesting. So every day is different from another one and I know the week can be really very productive at the end of week and I'm summarizing what I did, I'm really happy and I know what else I can do next week. So it's really very interesting. Challenging sometimes many more unknowns to others than it was before. But this is what I wanted.

Speaker A: Fantastic. Brilliant. That's great. Um, and you've, you've touched and, and mentioned it a few times now and I can, I can really, you know, kind of having spoken to you for what, maybe 10 minutes now, really feel that passion for uh, people, um, and you know, embracing people's growth, um, whilst obviously navigating some of the changes that you've had to navigate. How do you help your team, um, embrace change rather than resistics? I think that's one of the can, can quite often be one of the reoccurring challenges.

Speaker B: I think at first I'm helping my team and uh, my colleagues, peers, uh, to try to understand what is natural. But some people are uh, having a fear of uh, change or they don't want. Because this is part of our nature. So this is part of our nature. When some change is happening and we don't know details and we are afraid of uh, some part of it, we can be resistant to it. While doing my professional life I developed a framework myself. So uh, because it's easy for engineering people, uh, first try to think what is your gain from this change? Try to reflect what you need to have from what change. Try to own the change and then uh, trust the people who are leading the change. So another thing can be also understanding how you can win from the situation and how you can actually make sure that everything that you are doing is actually for your own growth. So um, I changed myself during my career when I was starting to be resistant to the change. Now my brain is not working like that. It's saying, okay, so change is happening, good, so there is a reason for that. This can be the negative impact and this is a positive impact. My role will be there to minimize the negative impact and try to understand how to maximize the positive impact with all those things together. I m, am also trying to transfer this knowledge to my team now when the change is happening. I already see people are thinking this is my growth, this is what I wanted to have. So for my next journey maybe I can benefit, maybe I can have a role which is matching with my uh, passion and where I want to apply it and where I can be successful. So um, yeah I hope it's working and uh, becoming better. So uh, to be honest I also enjoy to change now. So when I was struggling before I started to enjoy the changes and using it as opportunity.

Speaker A: Yeah, fantastic. I mean I don't think I've heard anyone else in it. And you know I work with a lot of tech leaders and have done for 20 years. I don't think uh, I've heard anyone else describe how they support their teams and manage their teams through resistance of change. Um, as well as that to be fair. So I'm sure it is working. Um, and um, yeah it's, it is, it's one of those that I think it's a mind, it's such a mindset thing and it sounds like you really help your people with their uh, mindset around change. Um, so that's fantastic. I'd like to move on to um, talking about high performing teams um now which I know you're um, you know you've talked about creating teams um, um where um, people feel proud, um, really proud to be part of. What does that actually look like in practice?

Speaker B: It's very different. So there is no one formula for every team. You are completely right. Building high performing team is something what everyone wants to have. So. But what does it mean if there is one formula for all companies, for all teams? No, I didn't find the one. What I'm trying to do, I'm trying when I'm having a team, uh, which one I wanted to build, I wanted to understand which is motivating them or how to create the environment that actually uh, tries to help them to understand this is the mission, what they want to achieve and this is how they can achieve there. So uh, being proud of being one team which is mission focused, I think this is one of the key KPIs we can say in engineering but also being a team member. So trying to understand the good communicator, not only focusing on my own goals but understanding this is a teamwork. While I'm uh, trying to build um, high performing team, I try to figure out so for Each team what are the main goals that will be help uh them to become high performing teams. For some team it can be so developing really like high standard uh front end application so another teammate can be the backend application. I'm just making up examples, simple examples. But yeah. So defining the clear mission for the team and trying to uh give uh them the tools that they can achieve. This is really important uh for teams to build and also trying to share the experience. So not only keeping inside uh the team but also trying to share between other teams. Trying to be the knowledge expert there and um building the good culture, positive culture, team culture, trying to help each other. So there is no one formula but uh what we need to know is not only the leader who is building the team but it's also team wanted to be part of this uh reconstruction building uh culture. When uh team uh members they also should know what they wanted to do. So it also should be dependent uh from their growth plan. For example if some engineer wanted to grow in other domain and then you are trying to move this person to a team to uh build other type of skills then probably you will not be successful. Trying to find the balance of the skill set, the growth opportunity which is also benefiting for organization and also connected to the vision and mission of the organization and trying to combine all those together so makes the team successful at the end.

Speaker A: Fantastic. I think you've answered my next question which was going to be around what makes it challenging to make a hyper uh maintain even a high performing team. Um, but I might just flip that and ask what it from your experience what would you say? Uh where do you, where would you say that Mo where have you seen most people kind of leaders go wrong? Like is the one fundamental area you would say that people go.

Speaker B: It's very good questions because it happens a lot with leaders. So uh, sometimes leaders are thinking so I have the high performing team then that's it. So I'm it's successful. The team needs maintenance. So uh, the team needs maintenance of their opportunities and growth and feeling what they are doing. Well in some case when the team is really on high performing scale. So it might be they need to change the mission because they achieved the maximum there. Sometimes I'm comparing the teams with kids. Let's say um, the kid is having the maximum grade in some something right? So I don't know in some competition you wanted to increase uh the challenge for the kids so to move them forward so to make them better. So usually parents are not stopping for one success of the kid. They're usually trying to bring more things and make them successful, make them that they go to the uh, better colleges and universities. The same same is with teams. It's very dynamic. Once the team is successful it does not mean we should uh, stop as leaders and to not try to maintain and give bigger goals for the team. The same for people. It's not the team members. If they are successful on something then they are ready for the next challenge. One of the challenges of us as leader is trying to give the new opportunities for the teams and team members. But they always grow because the growth is actually maintaining the high performing team. So people should feel that they are always growing. So um, what can be the challenge sometimes in an organization when um, pivots are having so they can be the pause for the leaders but they don't know exactly what kind of interesting things to give for their teams. I think trying uh, to balance that part. So trying to give other interesting things as a leader to try to bridge the gap for the team. But they don't feel that the missing part because otherwise team will try to lose the pace and then you might lose uh, the performance of high performing team. Another mistake that sometimes leaders are doing is actually overwhelming the team. So it should not be also the case. While teams should be happy and contribute and do their best, they also should have a moment when they are resting, when they are taking a pause and they are actually reflecting what kind of successes they have and also uh, recognizing so recognizing back to the team and saying team, this you did really good and this is your achievements that you did. So giving kudos back to the team. So positive impact and mentioning the wins that team is having is really crucial for all leaders.

Speaker A: Fantastic.

Speaker B: Love that.

Speaker A: And talking about leading teams and leadership. Looking back, is there a leadership mistake that um, that you've made in the past where you'd say that it's kind of really shaped how you lead today?

Speaker B: Yeah, of course. Many mistakes and the first big mistake probably what I did, I was thinking leaders, they should not do mistakes. That's not true. So when I became a leader I was thinking whatever I decide, whatever should be, should be without mistakes. So it's not possible. We all are people. Uh, what is important is actually not uh, being afraid of doing mistakes, but trying to know how to recover from the mistakes. And also the uh, mistakes should not be harmful for the organization and for the uh, team and do not be afraid of mistakes. But meantime if mistake happened, okay, so recognize it, acknowledge it and try to find A solution quick. Those are the learnings that I had so generally over my experience now I'm not afraid of doing mistakes. Of course it does not mean that I'm running after mistakes. I'm trying to not do that and do the decision based on the facts. But it happens. So

Speaker A: perfect. Yeah, totally agree. It's we're um, all human. No one's perfect. Um, and I think it's how you learn from um, those mistakes, um, and what you take from them and do differently next time. Um, which is a key thing. If you could revisit your early years in, in leadership, is there anything that you would have approached differently with what you know now and what you've learned over the years?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's actually a very good question again. So, um, when I took the leadership responsibilities during my first years of career as a leader, I was thinking because as one of my team members who became a leader of a team, I was thinking I should do the everything the best for my colleagues, the peers that have been uh, that time. And then I was actually struggling to balance what are the needs for the organization between what people want and my mistake with us doing. I was thinking I should make people happy. So making people happy does not mean that you are helping them to grow. So always giving a positive feedback is not how it should be. So sometimes feedback should be constructive. This was the mistake what I was doing. So uh, then I learned it's actually sometimes people should be unhappy. I'll use that word. It's the wrong word, I know. But they should understand how they need to change, what kind of parts they should work, uh, what kind of skills they should develop and might be they are not happy what time that they are receiving that feedback. But generally they'll be happy later because with uh, reflecting what you are saying and also helping them to develop those skills at the end, you are building the right team. Um, I think these are my first year's mistake that I was trying to make everyone happy. And then I understood it's not, not possible. I try to abstract from relations, personal relations and I try to see people, I try to see the organization goals and I try to combine them in the best way so that people will benefit what organization can give to them. And those organizations benefit from the growth of those people. And everything started to work. And when I see now some leaders at the first year managers whom I'm mentoring, I recognize the same mistake. X. I think this is quite interesting to see the pattern repeating for other people as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, definitely that's interesting. Um, what, what size uh, team are you responsible for?

Speaker B: An hour, what time?

Speaker A: Oh, what. Yeah, and I guess now. But what sort of sizes over your career have you been responsible for?

Speaker B: I started from as all leaders are starting from three or four or five people. Then it became, it was uh, increasing and now I'm uh, leading um, department. So it's around 50 people now.

Speaker A: Wow. Right. Okay. Yeah. No, it must be tricky, um, when it increases to those sizes and balancing and I guess it's having to kind of remember some of those lessons that you've learned over time, um, to ensure that you do approach things differently.

Speaker B: I also can say one thing that I learned, uh, when I moved to Germany, probably it's also interesting. So when I was in Armenia and working, of course it was again a global international company. I was working with uh, multinational team, but it was not so multinational. So as it is here in Germany. What I have learned when I moved to Germany, it's actually being able to work with different type of cultures. So understanding how for example to respond from one cultural representative can be different from another one. And how to read, um, differences between the communication for different type of people. So it even increases when you are having a lot of people not directly reporting to you. So sometimes it's not a direct communication, it's a communication via email or the Slack message. So it's, it's reading what people wanted to say when they don't say bad things. So it's also one of the challenges of having the m. Multinational big teams. But I think this is uh, one of my growth, uh, paths that I had when I started to understand to ask clarifying questions if people might be afraid of asking questions when it's different from culture to another culture. And then I advise now all my uh, managers and team members and mentees with whom I'm working. So take, take uh, into consideration this cultural part as well. Recently I was testing myself in the cultural map where my fitting the interesting part was sometimes I'm um, uh, as a, acting as European, sometimes I'm acting as Asian, sometimes I'm uh, acting as American. Because probably with, because of the experience of working with different type of organization. I got these experiences into my professional life and depending on the situation I'm reacting differently. So I think having these different type of cultures in the team and through working with them is also helping us uh, to shape as better leaders generally.

Speaker A: Yeah, fantastic. That's a really good point. And I guess that that would have been a um, new experience and challenge for you when you, when you came, when you moved to Berlin. Um, and uh, yeah, I guess also going back to that point where um, you know every, every day is different. There's a new challenge um, each day, um, which just kind of keeps, keeps you going really, doesn't it?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think this all is combining together. It also makes our life interesting when, so there are some unknowns that we should solve. Our brain is trained like that. So it's unknown of understanding um, the outcome here. Trying to figure out it's engineering challenge, It's a person, people related challenge. It's a conversation, communication. All this together is helping us to be better and also shape uh, better leadership probably. I hope so.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, perfect does sound like it to me. So one um, of the things that I like to do is just share journeys, experiences, challenges which, which we've done, but also um, advice as well. Um, I, um, mean what's, what's the. I'm sure you've received your advice from um, leaders in the past, over the years. What, what would you say, um, is the best leadership advice that you've ever received or, or a piece of advice that you always pass on?

Speaker B: Yeah, I'll try to address this question from different perspective and as remembering advice several times, uh, recently. Um, short. It does nothing is impossible. So when I went to lunch for one of our VPs, it was not a coaching meeting. And then we've been talking about different type of um, challenges, interesting games. Ah, so new things coming. And then the advice that I got from her was nothing is impossible, Anna. So if you can imagine, you can achieve it. If you don't know how to achieve it, try to imagine better. Oh my God. It was the best advice that I received from her because uh, before I was thinking, before that advice, I think, ah, it's impossible. I cannot do this. So it's not for me it's too difficult. When she said nothing is impossible, I said, actually she's right because I'm imagining already. So this probably is not clearly defined what I want, but actually I know what I want. And I started to think more and more what kind of things I want to achieve myself and how it can be done and what she was also saying. So it, it's okay when you don't know everything. So don't be afraid of unknowns that you can face. This is the opportunity for you to learn how to do that. And uh, yeah, what I was saying, but it was a lunch meeting, it was not a coaching meeting. I also wanted to Tell people. Sometimes people are saying we should book official coach. We should have official mentorship. Sometimes the coaching and mentorship and sponsorship can happen when you don't see it. So it can be during the coffee. You go for a coffee break with somebody, then you might hear something that might change your life. What I wanted to, uh, say everyone, so pay attention. So pay attention what people are saying. Pay attention what is actually shared. Ah, with you. Because it can shape at the end, uh, the overall decision for your life. Because that advice that I received from that lady, and she's really awesome, as admiring how she's doing it changed me because I tried to believe, uh, I tried to shape myself and try to find how I can achieve next. Another thing is here. So this advice should come from one whom you trust. So why, if the same thing could be told by anyone else whom I don't trust, maybe I'll not take it as a, uh, given to me because I was admiring how successful she is, how she's managing everything, how she's in one country doing this, this talk, uh, managing the team, flying to other place. And then actually she's finding time also to have conversation, going for a lunch, uh, like simple people. Like, I was thinking, I have that time. But then she was also helping, uh, women in tech to grow. I thought, it's actually exactly the advice that I needed to have. And she knew what to say to me. Even I approached her recently and I said, you know, your advice, uh, ten years ago changed me. She was saying, I remember the lunch in this restaurant. I think, oh, my gosh, she's really fantastic.

Speaker A: I love that. But it's so. It is so true. Like, you could. You could have received that advice from two, three, four different people. Um, but the impact, um, could have, you know, all the way that you received that advice, um, could have just resulted in so many different outcomes. Um, um. And yeah, I do think that it is very much down to the relationship and the trust that you have with that person. Um, and yeah, like the whole kind of. That piece of advice that can apply to anything in life as well, can't it? Your personal life as well as your professional?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: Yeah. No, I love that. That's perfect. That's brilliant. Um, and, um, one more question, actually, that just. I'm quite intrigued and interested in. You've obviously, um, you know, progressed your career, um, you know, kind of in a, um, timely kind of, um, way. And. Sorry, I'm sure I put my, uh, struggling to get my question out now. What, um, as A female leader. Would you say that that's kind of. Have you ever had any situations where you felt that that's um, you know, been an issue or set you back, um, anything in terms of, you know, your gender or background, anything like that? Because I'm always really, you know, we're big, big dei, um, advocates and um. Yeah, it interested because particularly um, with how much we've talked about people and growth of people and teams.

Speaker B: Yeah. So actually again I like your question. And then several, I think two years ago one of my colleagues um, told me, anna, uh, you should not be worried because you are always successful. It's not true. I had the moments but actually I pushed back because of my gender and then actually I shared in the LinkedIn about what. So it's not happening recently. So it's kind of uh, from uh, previous early years I was in school then it was a mathematical competition so we got exactly the same points. So two boys and I was the third one. So when it was announced, uh, results were announced, uh, they both got better presents as a kid, of course I was running for presents as well and I got a cheaper presentation and actually um, I was told oh, you could not win. But it was not true. So actually we had exactly similar marks. But what I wanted to say that moment that actually those boys were really went. They said anna, let's go back together and say that um, they wanted to protect me and say that you are actually equal and then um, try to get a better present for me. That time was my first time in my life and I said okay, so you are um, human. And then probably you don't deserve a better present. I shocked, I could not answer. But so probably in 15 minutes I was not able to recover afterwards. But then what I want to mention the team which is not uh, was diverse. Uh, right. So woman and mente all have been supporting me. So the support was important that moment. Then a uh, second time again happened when I was really new and I was trying to find a job. So I got rejected because I was not even didn't get into the interview because as a woman and then, then uh, they didn't want to have a woman in their team because everyone was men. Ah. After several years again I was successful in my professional career. Uh, they changed of course the way that they've been operating. It was a startup. They approached me so later so for a leadership position. But then I rejected and I said I don't, I don't want to work even everything is changed. But I still have that feeling that I don't want to be part of a company.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B: Yeah. And um, then probably once happened, uh, but actually I was quite respected. There's no, nothing related to my gender. So in company as a. Having uh, a complex team to solve the problem, right. So as, as a ways of working engineer, as trying to fix the problem, I was not understanding why I'm not getting into the team. So I, I was trying to suggest a change in the organization. So as talking with the director and the manager. Then I was getting resistance. I went back to my manager. I asked, do not can you help me? So can you tell me how I should actually change here? So I was expecting a guidance from our senior person. Again, it happened so more than 10 years ago. But then what I received, I received. Oh, okay. I didn't receive help. I received. Maybe it's fine because you are a woman. I said how it's related. So how it relates. Yeah, it was not related to be honest. But he could not help me. So this is the thing. I went back, actually I sat down. I understood that my approach was wrong. So it was not related to my gender. My approach of trying to address the issue. I was going too much into technical details instead of trying to show the outcome right. So people should know. So this is the pain, this is the solution, and this is the game that you are having. And then I changed approach. I started to present approach in different ways. Then Tim was uh, I scheduled one hour meeting. It took only 15 minutes. So it was clear, uh, why I wanted to have this change. And everything was accepted, uh, afterwards. Actually I'm always advising people. So try to take what opportunity when people are underestimating you as opportunity to show that you are better. So don't, uh, don't be afraid, don't. Sometimes I'm smiling when I'm hearing something like that. It's not related to my, um, daily work or colleagues. Once I'm hearing probably you have the promotion because you are a woman, it's not related. So this is the funny thing, but I'm smiling and I'm saying why you are thinking so I even am not answering. But my advice to all women in tech will be trust in yourself. You know that you always can achieve, uh, the big challenges. Don't be afraid of taking the new challenges because you know you can do it if you are there. So you're one of those people and you are smart. Just take the opportunities. You'll always know. You'll always figure out how to achieve results.

Speaker A: Fantastic. Brilliant. Love that. And really nice ending. Bit of advice there for females in women in tech.

Speaker B: Fantastic.

Speaker A: Um, thank you very much, um, for your. All of your sharing, um, sharing advice, um, and being really authentic. Um, I've really enjoyed talking to you today. Um, and I feel like we've, you know, you've. You've really opened up and given some great, um, examples about your journey. So thank you very much.

Speaker B: Thanks a lot, Sandra. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thanks for inviting and having this nice, great conversation together.

Speaker A: M. You're welcome. Thank you again. And if, um, if anyone wants to, Once we go live with the podcast, if anybody wants to reach out to you, is LinkedIn probably the best?

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm happy to talk. Yes. LinkedIn is the best way of reaching out to me.

Speaker A: Fantastic. Brilliant. Great. Well, thank you very much for your time, um, and enjoy the rest of your day.

Speaker B: Thank you. You too.

Speaker A: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of let's Talk Leadership Podcast. I hope you found it as insightful and inspiring as I did. A huge thank you to our guests for sharing their experiences and, um, wisdom. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share it with your network. It really helps us reach out to more readers like you. If you're interested in joining me on the podcast or have someone in mind who you think would be a great fit, feel free to reach out and get in touch, as I'd love to hear from you. Until next time, keep leading with purpose. And remember, leadership is all about learning, growing, and giving back. Take care and, um, I'll see you on the next episode.