#178 - Christina Ackermann | Leading Beyond Legal: Strategy, Growth and Governance

Speaker A: This is the let's Grab Coffee podcast and I'm your host, George Khalifa. Christina Eckerman. Welcome to the let's Grab Coffee podcast. It's great to have you on. Let's cheers to some. I think you're drinking tea, but coffee, tea.

Speaker B: Cheers. Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: Mhm. My pleasure. Nothing like getting caffeinated before.

Speaker B: Uh, it's a small cup, right? So much caffeine all in one.

Speaker A: That's hilarious. Well, I really appreciate you, uh, being on, on the show and I know we, we both got connected recently. I had the pleasure of meeting you at one of our events. Uh, we grabbed coffee, learned about your story especially. You know, what I resonated most is you as a, uh, as a global citizen. You know, originally coming from, from Germany or being born in Germany, you're spending a lot of time in Europe and then going to Canada, going to law school there and then coming to the US for work and a lot of travel, you know, is, I would say, connected to your story. And then the other side, which I found super interesting, is all the, you know, very senior in house, uh, roles that you've, you've had, which is fantastic, right? A very large, uh, healthcare companies, pharmaceutical companies, as general counsel, as senior vice president, as president of business lines. Uh, so I'm very excited, uh, to have you on. We're excited to learn from you and uh, maybe we'll dig in with. You know, one thing I was, I was really curious about once I was kind of doing some homework on your story is, you know, you've operated at the highest levels. Right. Uh, these are global businesses, upwards of 10,000 employees. In many cases they're highly regulated, in some cases bureaucratic. I kind of wondered, you know, for you, Cristina, what was your framework or what is your current framework, uh, for establishing credibility very quickly when you jump into whether it's a general counsel role, a senior vice president, what's been your framework?

Speaker B: So again, thanks for having me and I'm happy to share my experiences. Um, so there's several things that I look at. One is achieving quick wins, building relationships quickly and always coming prepared. One of the things I did every time I started a new role is I put together a 90 day plan and I sat with my CEO, we went through it and that was basically the first time that I was expected to be held accountable for what I wanted to achieve. And the 90 day plan really sets forth the quick wins. Right. People want to see accomplishments, people want to build, build trust, which requires accountability, reliability. So what you say Are you going to follow through? Are you going to achieve it? And if you're not, um, are, ah, you. Do you hold yourself accountable for, you know, I don't want to call them just failures, but sometimes you can't achieve what you want to achieve or your targets. But you have to, you know, live up to it and stand up to it and say, yes, this, this I can't do. And maybe we do it differently and also share your successes with the team. Uh, I think it's a red flag if people start, you know, sharing successes just with themselves and telling everybody how great they are. And that, to me, is something that also is something that, you know, if you see that early on, to me, that that's a red flag. The other thing is always come prepared. So I never go to meetings not prepared. And I have a few stories on that one, if you don't mind me sharing some stories. So one of them was when I joined Valiant as general counsel. I went to a board meeting a week into me being there. Uh, Valiant at the time was a nightmare. Um, and everybody knows that it was a company that was going down fast. And the CEO called me and asked me to join because he said, this is going to be the turnaround, you know, your lifetime. Which it, it was fantastic to be part of it. But, um, we had a ton of litigation. We had, you know, the largest dock drop case in the United States, history of litigation. And so I went into the board and I had done my homework. I had spent a lot of time reviewing all of the litigation, speaking to outside counsel. But I was told, don't worry about it because you don't have to speak. The general counsel will be there. This is your first week. And you just, you know, listen and learn. So I got there, uh, when it came to legal presenting to the board, they asked the general counsel to leave, and they wanted me to be there alone. And I was like, oh, my God, like, I'm not prepared for this. But I was, uh, I answered every single question. I knew all the litigations, the, uh, pros and cons, the challenges we faced, and my recommendations. And I built so much trust and relationship in that one meeting because I came prepared. Another story I have is that Novartis. I was sitting in a meeting with the CEO and a woman came to present her business plan. And the CEO of Novartis read every single deck where he would start a meeting by saying, I read your deck. You don't need to present. Let's go to page 52, footnote 3. Or something like that. Like uh, you could tell he read the whole deck and he went to this one particular item and the person presenting didn't know because it wasn't her deck. Her team prepared the deck for her and she wasn't ready to answer the question. And so that was quite embarrassing. And she's, you know, she lost any trust or credibility she had was gone. So coming prepared, I always tell my team is so important. Don't go to meetings if you don't know what your area of expertise is, uh, or what you are being relied on to talk about. And then the other thing is building relationships. Right? I mean I'm an extrovert and so it's easy for me to build relationships but you know, spend time with people, have coffee, have meetings. So when I first start, I always, in addition to my 90 day plan, I spend time set up meetings with all the executives, with the board members, uh, with people in my team and anybody that people say I need to meet. So I spend a lot of time, the first 30, 60 days just getting to know people, going for coffee, going for lunch, um, and having one on one. So I think that's really important for establishing a framework. Those are kind of my three go tos and obviously the 90 day plan,

Speaker A: I love that that encompasses uh, a lot of very, very valuable things. Uh, well, especially the relationship piece. Right. Because to your point you're new and for you to even execute on your 90 day plan you need people. And there are some legacy people in these uh, organizations that you'll have to rely on and lean on for their expertise and their know how and kind of dealing with some of the nuances. What do you think often is missed from executives? You talked about some of the things that it, you know, it includes but curious, what have you seen is often missed, not added, uh, not focused on as a priority.

Speaker B: I mean I think the personnel issues that you have to address in the first 90 days are critical. I always put that in there because part of your success is having the right team around you. I have seen others miss that, uh, where they don't they focus so much on learning the business which is creating critical. Right. And making sure that you align with the CEO's objectives. And I think people miss the most important part which is your team around you, your personnel around you. I would say that's probably one thing that people miss. But yeah, in my view.

Speaker A: Got it. You know, you've had a, it's interesting because you've had a front row seat and we uh, we have a front row seat to the cat as well. Uh, who's joining our podcast. Um, you know, but you've.

Speaker B: She has a lot to say.

Speaker A: No, it's all good. The more the merrier. Um, you know, you've had, you've had, obviously, senior roles, whether it's at Novartis, ah, uh, Sandoz, Alcon, you know, Bosch and Lomb. What were some of the most important lessons you've taken away from operating at that level?

Speaker B: So I'm going to come back to building the team. I think one of the most important thing is making sure that you build the right team early. Also another really critical learning is being able to make decisions. And, uh, a lot of people never really make it up to the C suite, frankly, because they're not good at making decisions. And it's difficult to make decisions because it could impact millions of dollars, it could impact many people, everybody in the company, potentially. So it's important to learn how to take decisions well and have a process in place because you can't always control the outcome. And then to be genuine and authentic and, uh, be yourself, because, again, you have to build trust and relationships and you can't do that if you're not authentic. So I would say some of the things that I've learned early on. Oops, sorry. Early on is, um, build a team, make sure that you build the team well and, uh, make decisions. And actually linked to building a team. One of the things the CEO told me early on, um, this was CEO of Novartis, is that managers, um, don't make decisions on personnel fast enough. You never fire anybody too soon. And he expects all of his managers and leaders to be able to make difficult decisions soon. So that's another thing that I learned, um, because it's not easy to make those decisions and you'd prefer to avoid them. But as a leader, you definitely have to be able to make that decision and have those difficult conversations.

Speaker A: How have you managed? Because obviously you've probably been in some heated conversations, uh, tough decisions to make, but you also obviously want, you know, and I know there's different viewpoints on this, but sort of being liked, being respected, um, you know, and obviously there's always, uh, how you're perceived in an organization. How have you sort of overcame, overcome that, you know, that challenge, I guess when you walk into a room and, you know, you have to make a very tough, decisive, you know, decision and it's timely and the other party or person might not like it. How have you, um, build comfort around

Speaker B: that so I'm laughing when you first started, because everybody wants to be liked. And when I was young and I was, you know, working my way up, so to speak, or working in a corporation, I was always surprised when people didn't like me. I wanted people to like me. And I. And as a leader, you have to kind of get over that. Um, and of course, it's. It's fabulous if everybody likes you. But the key, somebody told me once, is you need to be respected. And it's easy to say, but hard to execute on. And so again, it comes back to, uh, you know, are you being an honest and authentic leader? And so one of the things I do when I have to have difficult conversations. And by the way, it has happened a lot, especially when I was general counsel, where people ask me to have the difficult decisions to let other executives go, which, you know, HR and I worked together, it wasn't just me, but still, um, legal was often in the room. And one thing I did is I learned to speak less. Um, when you have difficult conversations or when you make a decision and you have to share the difficult decision with somebody, it's better. Less is more. Keep calm, stay quiet. You know, stay very level. Um, don't get emotional. Often people on the other side will get emotional. And don't. You don't have to answer every question. You don't, because then you, you know, slippery slope. And so that's what I've learned over time, um, with respect to having difficult conversations. And then, you know, how do you make the decisions, per se? I mean, that's really depending on what type it is. Is it a critical strategic decision? Is it an HR decision, a personnel decision? Those have different processes in place. Um, but I think your question was more, you know, how do you execute the difficult decisions? Right.

Speaker A: M. Yeah. Yeah. Because it takes time. I mean, to your. That's kind of where I was leading to it, too, because we have folks, um, who. Who listen to the podcast and there are different stages of their career. Some are executives, some may be starting out their careers. And it's. It's definitely easier, I think, as you climb up in your career, and maybe more seniority. But ultimately, I think we're all going to have to face tough decisions and make tough calls that, you know, don't. Don't please a lot of people. And you. One thing. One thing that. That was told to me once by my mentor is, you know, if you want to please everyone, just sell ice cream. Like, that's. You're just. You're you're in the wrong business.

Speaker B: You know, but even then, you know what the reality is? You could never please. I mean, somebody may not like the ice cream that you, maybe you don't have flavor they want. I mean, the reality is not everybody. Exactly. You can't always please everybody. Um, what you have to do is what's best for the majority and obviously what's best for the company. And the reputation. I always think people miss the mo. One of the most important things is reputation, right? Um, you have to make sure that you manage the reputation of the company and in everything you do. I mean, at least in legal and in compliance, um, we had to manage the reputation. And you know, Warren Buffett once said, and I disagree with him on this a little tiny bit, uh, you know, it takes 20 years to build a reputation and five minutes to ruin it. I actually think it takes two seconds to ruin a reputation. And maybe that's what he meant, but. And I lived through it at Valiant, which then became bouched. I mean, I joined Valiant when it was at its lowest and it's most challenging and it had a terrible reputation. You know, we believe that we didn't get approval, so we didn't get some of, you know, when we, we tried to do a merger once and we needed the FTC to approve it, we're pretty sure it wasn't approved because of our reputation and who we were, not because of the skill set or the expertise in the company.

Speaker A: Hm. What got you interested, uh, in healthcare at, uh, large? I mean, if you look at the four, uh, if I counted correctly, or there's probably four or five, but the four main ones were Alcon, global leader in eye care for folks who might not be as familiar. Novartis, one of the largest pharma companies, focus on prescription, uh, medicine. Sandoz, which is a leader in generic medicine, sort of the lower cost, more affordable category. And then Bosch and Loan, which a lot of folks know as the global eye healthcare company, maybe you have some contact lenses from. So if you, if you look at your sort of career arc, a lot of healthcare, pharma, global, large orgs. Why did you go into healthcare, especially as an attorney in graduating law school, you kind of picked and stuck to this industry and I was kind of curious as to why.

Speaker B: So first of all, I didn't move much. Um, I stayed at Novartis for 14 years and Novartis encompassed, um, Sandoz and Alcon, because they acquired them, um, and built on them. So it was all part of the Novartis Family. But I really fell into it, like a lot of things in my life, actually, including, well, by chance. So I was a lawyer in Toronto working at a Bay street firm, doing securities law and corporate commercial banking law and restructuring, you know, in the late 80s when, you know, you had the fall. And so now I'm aging myself, but. But my husband at the time, um, got an opportunity to work in Delaware, to move to Delaware. And because I had moved all my life and I had already been in Canada 10 years, I figured it was time to pick up and move again. And so I was excited to move. And so we move. Realized that I couldn't join a law firm, um, without writing the bar exam. And a lot of the states in the US don't allow you to sit for the bar exam if you don't come from an ABA approved law school, which is a U.S. law school. And I came from a Canadian law school and then I did my postgraduate in England, so never went to law school in the US and so I wrote the New York Bar. And with the New York Bar, I could go in house in Delaware because I had a, uh, we moved when I had a five week old baby. So I didn't want to live in Delaware and work in New York because that's a long commute. So I had to go in house. And a, uh, colleague, not a colleague, a friend of mine worked at Dupont Merck and said, oh, I think they're hiring in the legal function. Do you want to apply? And I said, sure. And that's how I fell into pharmaceuticals. I didn't seek it out. Having said that, absolutely love it. I would never leave pharmaceuticals. I think it's something I can stand behind. Uh, even though the pharmaceutical industry gets attacked a lot, we do a lot of good. I mean, we save people's lives. And one of the reasons I loved Novartis and I think it's a fabulous company, is it has one of the best research engines in the world. I think really amazing things. I could sit and listen to our head of research for hours at a time. Loved what he did. So I love the pharmaceutical industry. I think we do a lot of good for patients. I know we get a lot of negative press sometimes as well, and maybe rightfully so. But in the end, I think that we do more for humans than a lot of other industries, in my view.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, for sure. A lot of good comes from that industry. Of course, you know, having worked at companies that in some cases are headquartered, uh, in Europe, many in Switzerland, but you've operated in both U.S. offices. You've traveled a lot to Europe. You've sort of seen the nexus between the US And Europe, or let's call it North America. In Europe, given your Canadian coverage, uh, did you ever sort of really feel a difference in the business culture? I know it's often talked about, and there are a lot of nuances people know, but what was your experience juggling two different sides, North America and Europe, especially in business as an executive and in the C suite?

Speaker B: Absolutely, I noticed a difference. So, first of all, I grew up in a German household, so I grew up with European standards, if you want to call it that way. Right. Um, which are a little bit different, I think, than North American or American. And my kids grew up in Europe as well, because my kids grew up in Switzerland, because I was working for Novartis at that time. And by the way, at Novartis, I worked in Switzerland for 10 years and then in. At Alcon in Texas for four years. And that was a huge change for my daughter. The cultural difference, um, between Switzerland and Texas was really difficult for her. But coming back to your question, um, yes, I noticed a big difference. I think that what I've noticed is that the executives and general people in Europe are much more respectful now. It could also be the language and the culture. As you know, European languages have two different forms. You have the polite form and the familiar form. And in meetings, often when we spoke German, we would often use the familiar M, you know, the polite form. Um, and in the US you just have you. So everything is familiar. So I think that kind of sets the beginning stage or the, you know, the foundation already. I also found that in Europe, they're really focused. It's really important for them to have a culture of community, even though there was. There was strong hierarchy. I mean, you have to respect the hierarchy in Europe, but you don't feel it the same way I felt it in the U.S. when I came to the. To work in the U.S. uh, as a senior person. And I really, when I worked in the U.S. initially, I was not that senior. And then I moved to Europe, and I really went up into the C suite in Europe and then came back to join a C suite in the U.S. and again, the difference was really focused on individual decision making in the US Compared to more community, even though, again, strong hierarchy and you respected it. Um, people had less filters in the U.S. i would say, um, than in Europe. Um, and so people would. Would speak up more. Now, again, I'm, um, being very general, obviously, there are some individuals that, you know, fall outside of this, this norm. But in general, that's, that's some of the differences that I've noticed.

Speaker A: And you mentioned some of the personal ones between especially Texas and Switzerland. You know, what were some of those, uh, examples, if you're, you know, comfortable sharing.

Speaker B: You mean personally or in the business world this time?

Speaker A: M on the personal front.

Speaker B: So, I mean, what was very challenging for my daughter is that we moved to Texas and we didn't know anybody in the United States, forget about the state. But m. My daughter was in grade nine. She, her father was still in Switzerland, her brother was at McGill, uh, Montreal, Canada, at college. So it was just the two of us. And I had to work and so I had a nanny she didn't really like much. Uh, she didn't know. She ended up becoming anorexic. It was a really, really challenging time for us. And I actually told Novartis that we have to move back. You know, she, she moved. Texas is not a, a state where that is transient, or at least it wasn't when we were there in the sense it's not like New York City where there's a lot of international people. So she ended up in a high school where, you know, she was the new kid on the block and she was the new kid from Switzerland. And you wouldn't believe how many people asked her about Sweden, which had nothing to do with Switzerland. Do they have iPhones in Sweden? I don't know. We didn't live there. But so it was difficult for her to integrate. She did finally. And we did integrate. I mean, also in the community that we lived in. I was the only single mother in the community. I was the only working mother, I believe full time working mother. There were some part time in the community. It was just very, very different than, uh, Switzerland, which is a lot more liberal. You know, I'm probably the only one in the neighborhood that didn't have a gun. And so, um, so there were just a lot of differences. It was a challenge to integrate. Ultimately we did. And look, the people are extremely friendly, but they have very strong views that differ from the views I grew up with and that my children grew up with. So it was, it was a challenge to integrate. But because I moved all my life, we finally did integrate and my daughter today considers herself part Texan even, which is funny.

Speaker A: Um, that's amazing. But yeah, yeah, it's, um, you sort of build a superpower. I mean, it doesn't make it easier. You know, it's kind of like the cold plunge. In many ways, it's like you, uh, it never gets easier, uh, but you end up figuring out how to push through, you know, for the two to three minutes that you're in there. And in many ways, because we shifted around a lot growing up, um, I think I told you, grew up in the Middle East, Canada. From Canada to the U.S. and you know, it never, it was never easy, but you sort of develop a playbook like many things in life, and you sort of, it becomes your operating system and you figure out how to assimilate and make friends and kind of develop like a chameleon like characteristic that you can deploy.

Speaker B: I agree. I mean, one of the things I learned growing up because my parents move, I mean, we moved all the time. I don't think we lived anywhere more than three, four years other than Canada, where we finally lived 10 years. But I mean, we lived like in southern Italy for I think four or three years and then in Rome for three or four years and then in Tunisia for two, three years and then northern Germany and southern Germany and we just moved all the time. And so you learn, you make friends quickly, but they're not deep friendships, uh, that last forever because you don't know when you're going to get pulled out of that and have to make friends somewhere else new. But I think that's why one, uh, that's probably one of the reasons I became an extrovert, because I had to. And I noticed with my siblings, I was one of four, they weren't all the same. You know, some of them had difficulty, uh, because they weren't as extrovert. And so it works well for some people as, uh, you know, George, and for others it can be a challenge. But I brought that flexibility with me into my business world as well, where I had to quickly come in and build my reputation, build the trust, build relationships. And you know, the other thing I benefited from is when I was in Toronto in a law firm, they. I don't know how I ended up actually, now that I think about it, with the Rainmaker, I think he put me on a project once and liked me because I was a workaholic and decided to keep me. And so I worked with the Rainmaker for over a year and he really taught me how to build relationships and establish trust quickly.

Speaker A: Well, speaking of, um, you know, I know you've been mentioning trust and relationships quite a lot, which I love actually, especially kind of drawing on your experience, um, and having, you know, having led. Yes. You were an in house Lawyer at, you know, different organizations, especially as general counsel. But you've also led legal, you've led compliance, commercial ESG operations and a large multinational business. The, the one thing I'm always curious of is how do you actually ensure alignment internally? Right. When you think about these cross practices or cross functions that oftentimes have competing incentives, there's different stakeholders. You're reporting to senior management, often the CEO plus you have the board. But how do you make it all work? And what have you found is to be, is the sort of recipe for success there?

Speaker B: I think the key is to make sure everybody knows that they don't have different accountabilities, uh, or incentives because ultimately a business can't be successful if it's not compliant. You know, the ESG is something that external companies look at all the time. Key investors, uh, BlackRock, Vanguard, they, they're really. Well, they used to, until this administration were very big on esg, but Europe still is, Europe is very big on esg. Some of the listing, Iceland, uh, all the European listings, NASDAQ and the, and the New York Stock Exchange and the Toronto Stock Exchange still look at esg. And so a company can be successful and obviously you have to hit your targets and you have to have financial success. But I'm going to come back to reputation. If you do something that's non compliant, bang, your reputation is gone. And it impacts your financial success, it impacts your ability to do, especially in pharmaceuticals. Can you still uh, you know, contract with the government? Uh, if you lose a lot of contract with the government, it impacts your business. Do people still want to do business with you? Do people want to invest? And so to me if you look at the different KPIs or targets, objectives of different functions, yes, they're very focused on themselves. But ultimately the everything builds up to the CEO. And the CEO is accountable for every, everything that comes across including the, as far as I'm concerned, the executive leadership team. And so to me alignment is critical and all the executive leaders have to agree on what the corporate culture is and what the corporate KPIs are. And so for me being in legal and compliance and then ultimately, and then ultimately leading a business and I'm going to come back to that in a minute. Are not that far away though I did have one business person once when I moved over to the business ask me why is the pharmaceutical business being punished and now reporting into legal? And I said they're not reporting into legal. I am not legal. I am um, the business now. And so people Sometimes do see it separately. I never did, because you can't have one without the other. And to me, to create the alignment is to make sure everybody understands that you're interdependent.

Speaker A: Was it a difficult. This is maybe more for the. For the lawyers listening or, uh, folks who want to maybe get into the legal profession. You know, one thing I was kind of curious about is going from GC to the business units and being, you know, really front and center on the value creation, the revenue streams. Was that a tough transition for you? It seems like obviously you got some pushback initially and, you know, maybe different folks within the firm have different perspectives on the matter. How did you handle that? Upfront friction, if you will, to be seen as a business contributor and not just solely and squarely as in house lawyer.

Speaker B: It was a real challenge because everybody saw me as legal. And I mean, I'm going to be very honest. I think that some people thought I was moving into the business just because I asked. And I did, I did. I did ask the CEO. I said, you know, I've done legal long enough. And I think a good general counsel is also a business person because you can't give legal advice unless you understand the business. And I wanted to move into the business, and he allowed me. He trusted me to be able to move into the business. And I think some people weren't that happy about that. Um, and so it was really difficult to get out of the vision people had of me as an attorney. And so one of the things I noticed that was really challenging is when we had our quarterly business reviews. Um, so I spent. I'm a perfectionist, so I spent a lot of time learning the business, understanding, um, the numbers, understanding our launches, our products, you know, understand. And I don't have a science background, so I had to spend a lot of time with our development people and our product, uh, managers to understand every single product, uh, where it is, in the competition, where it is in the reimbursement, where it is. You know, how are we building? How are we growing? What are the challenges internally and externally? And so when I had to go and do my business reviews, I wanted to give the initial business review and then have my team speak on specific therapeutic areas, which we were broken into. But I did notice that people didn't listen as carefully at the beginning when I first gave my leadership overview and then would focus more and ask more questions to my team, which was fine because they were the experts. Um, it changed over time because I didn't give up. I kept Coming back. And then I actually asked my team at one point said, do you mind if I answer the questions initially? And if I can't, you guys jump in. But I need people to know that I have the answers as well, and I know what they're talking about. So it took a while because people put you in a cubby and they see you, you know. Oh, Christina has always been a lawyer. She's a lawyer, she's a general counsel. But I am not the first lawyer, and I'm not the first general counsel to become CEO. Um, I mean, the CEO Pfizer was a general, you know, was a lawyer, I think Merck as well. And so the transition is not easy, um, to make, but you have to persevere. I had the support of my CEO, which was really, really helpful, and I'm very grateful to him. And I kept going. I have to tell you, um, I sit on boards now, and the board that have me join because they don't really know me, they never experienced me as an attorney, recognize me as a business partner person. Much more than the boards that asked me to join and knew me from Novartis when I was an attorney. They continuously see me as an attorney. I had this one meeting where we were in, where, uh, they were talking about launching into a dry eye. Like, it was a dry eye product, which is exactly what we launched. And so I started talking and making a lot of comments as a business person and one of the other board members. This was very early on when I just joined. Thought actually I was a scientist. I said, no, I'm not.

Speaker A: I just know that I just studied the business very well.

Speaker B: But some people that know me as an attorney, I think will always see me as an attorney. And it's. It's hard work to. To change that. It is hard work.

Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, real quick on, uh, I want to get back to the. To the board. Your roles now within different boards. But, um, I just. I just want to drill down a little bit more on your developing, like, your ability to develop inner confidence, uh, basically, and maybe reduce the voice of doubt, especially in those micro moments. And I know, especially, like, look, obviously the more experience you have, the more seniority, the different situations, it comes with time. But I know that's often a talking point, especially from a lot of the emerging leaders that listen to the show and are in my network is in those moments. To your point, it took persistence, but I'm sure it also, you know, there were some moments maybe you were a bit anxious, maybe stress came up Maybe you were nervous about certain things. So I'm curious if those feelings did come out or did come up. How did you. How did you guess?

Speaker B: They came up? So one of the things is, I am extremely stubborn and extremely ambitious, which has been held against me at times. People are like, oh, you know, I've been called a steamroller. I've been called a cockroach once by somebody because I was ambitious, or I am ambitious now. I've never stepped on anybody, at least not that I intentionally thought I did to get anywhere. But I was always very stubborn. So just early on, I was told by a friend of mine, because English is not my mother tongue, that I can't. I can't write the law exam because I. I was, um, debating what to do when I was in university, and my friend decided to go to law school. And we're like, well, maybe I should write the law school admission test. And I was told, uh, you can't do it. English is not your mother tongue. And I thought, ha, I'm gonna show them. So, you know, wrote the lsat, got into law school. I only applied to two law schools because I'm not sure how serious it was. Best decision ever. Love. Love being a lawyer. But that kind of shows my personality. So if somebody tells me I can't do it, you know, show them that I can't do it. Uh, and. And so I think that my mother calls me very similar stubborn in that. So I'm very stubborn. And I, um. And I think that's a good thing, especially for a woman. Um, I was often the only woman in a meeting, and frankly, I didn't notice it half the time because I was just in there contributing and being part of the team. And I was somewhere the other day in a meeting, and there's somebody said, oh, you're the only woman here. And I'm like, wow, amazing that you noticed it, because I didn't. And I think it's because I was so focused on making sure I contribute and that I come prepared again. Coming prepared is so important. And don't get derailed. Somebody said to me once when I first became general counsel, so, you know, when I joined the C suite, so to speak, um, I was surprised that I wasn't respected the way I thought I should be respected. And she said to me, you're swimming, uh, in a pool of sharks, and sometimes they're going to bite you. And I thought, why? Why would they do that to me? But it's true, and it's not something negative, but the reality is you have to become very resilient. So being resilient, I think is critical. And spending the time to build knowledge and expertise so that you feel comfortable in the role that you're in and you don't get challenged.

Speaker A: Is your role now board member of several companies. And you were once, you know, reporting into a board or communicating with the board constantly. You're now, uh, in that seat. And, you know, you've seen, I'm sure you've seen the differences between a strong management that has full trust and conviction in the board. I'm sure you've also seen a board that's mismanaged, that is, you know, it's not well organized, it's not well run, and causes more confusion to management teams. So seeing both the, uh, pluses and the minuses, what actually, in your opinion, uh, makes a very, very strong board that management teams actually trust, they work well with, they can collaborate with.

Speaker B: I mean, I think I've been lucky. I've been on some really strong boards, and I haven't been on any really bad boards. I mean, there are some that can improve. We can all improve. Right? But the really strong boards basically meant that they had a strong leader, a really good chairman, um, that had a great relationship with the CEO, because that's critical, right? The relationship between chairman and CEO has to be strong. And, um, the, uh, communication between the CEO and the chairman has to be strong as well. If a company is run well, the cadence of board meetings is every quarter. Um, if a company is not run well, you have a lot more board meetings. Uh, now it doesn't mean the CEO isn't doing a great job. It could be a crisis going on. I mean, at Valiant, at some point we did have, before I joined, I think they told me they had weekly or monthly board meetings, which is a little bit ridiculous, especially for public company. But in a crisis, these things happen. The other thing that's really important is to have competent management, right? Management that the board can rely on, know that they'll execute and meet the objectives. And obviously everybody has challenges sometimes. And so the key thing also is transparency and communication and sharing the good and the bad. I mean, if you have challenges, you shouldn't hide them from the board. Uh, if the board finds something out that you didn't share, that's the worst thing. So making sure that your, um, management is executing correctly and is sharing key information. The other thing that I think shows a good management and gives more trust in the management from the board is when the management has, or when the CEO has his management or her management at the table, it's really important for the board to get to know the full management slate. Because ultimately, one of the board responsibilities is not just financial and corporate oversight. It's also making sure that you have a successor for the CEO. I mean, that's a critical role of the board. And if you don't know who the management behind the CEO is, you can't do your job. You can't do that. And so CEOs that, uh, bring out and share the board meetings and platform with the board and with their team is really important. Important as well.

Speaker A: Was there a moment, looking back? Uh, and I know, obviously, hopefully, uh, a continued long career as, as. As you're involved with boards and different organizations, but, uh, is there a moment you look back and you're like, that was probably the coolest, most fun. You know, whether it was an opportunity or a milestone or, you know, a situation that you're like, this. This was one of. This is a highlight. You know, if I can commemorate this specific situation or memory or. Or experience, would there be one?

Speaker B: That's a great question. Obviously, I don't have just one, because otherwise it would pop into my mind. Um, you know, I think we had a lot of those amazing moments at Valiant when, in the first year or two when the CEO, CFO and I, and the CEO and I worked very closely because we were uncovering new things all the time. Not good things, um, but. But even though they were bad things that we were uncovering, they were great because they made us take the step in the right direction, knowing what we had uncovered and where we have to go to make it right. And that. That was, for me, exciting. I don't know if, you know, Joe agrees with that, my CEO, but we. We had. And it brought us closer together. And so that. That was exciting. Also, you know, little successes we had in litigation that meant a lot for the business. When we won, like, a patent case or said had a great settlement in a patent case, those were. Were exciting as well. When we, you know, got a big deal done at, uh, a good price for the company, those were exciting as well. But I can't. I can't think of any one that stands out. I guess that's a good thing because we had little wins all over the place that were. Were fun.

Speaker A: That compounded over time. Love that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, let's. Let's sort of, um, as we.

Speaker B: Probably in a week or two, I'll think of something and go, damn, I

Speaker A: should have said that we'll just do another one. It's all good. Podcast 2.0 with Christina Ackrom. Uh, I did want to end on sort of your personal evolution, Christina, because when we last caught up over coffee, uh, aside from really a tremendous career and kudos to that, and obviously folks now kind of got glimpses of it, but really over a tremendous career, lots of amazing experiences, there were also challenges, little bumps, you know, along the way, um, some related to health and maybe it was burnout, stress. I kind of wanted to ask you, and obviously whatever you're comfortable sharing, what that journey looked like for you, how you sort of regained more of a healthy balance in your life as you sort of navigated the chapters in your career.

Speaker B: So I had a few bumps health wise in, um, in my life, uh, and, um, during my career. And I have to say, when I was young, I was just stupid sometimes. Like, I was just such a workaholic that I didn't even notice when I had a bump. And like, I had a perfect example where I, I passed out at a meeting in Austria and bled out, like, literally was, you know, bleeding, um, and fainted. And the ambulance had to come and get me and um, take me to the hospital. And then the next day they, the ambulance took me to, back to Switzerland for surgery. And I called my boss and I said, I'm having surgery on Thursday, but I'll be back in the office on Monday. Don't worry, everything will be fine. And I was actually in the hospital for a long time and off for over five weeks. It was a very serious, serious incident. And it didn't, it didn't register with me at the time because it was all about high energy working. I loved what I did, absolutely loved what I did, and I didn't want to miss a beat. And then a few years after that, I had another hit, um, another health issue. And so slowly I started to realize, okay, Christina, you know, uh, what, maybe you just can't keep going on the way you're, you're going. And you need to, you need to take a break and you need to kind of prioritize. One of the things I did attend when I was at Novartis, which was great, Novartis had amazing training programs for its leaders. Uh, one of them was sustainable high performance. Like, how can you sustain your high performance? And it was a weak training. And one of the things they did is they looked at, um, sleep, they looked at exercise, your fitness level and your diet, um, because all three of those impact your performance and your sustainability of continuing high performance, which was something that was required at Novartis. I mean, Novartis is known to be a high performance company. And um, and that was a real eye opener for me. And so I, um, I changed quite a bit. For one thing, I became vegan 10 years ago and really had a significant impact in my health. I made sure that I exercised enough. Now, obviously I exercise a lot more now than I did when I was working. I didn't have time, but I would get up sometimes at 5, 5:30 in the morning, even though I hate getting up early to exercise, because it is really, really important. And one of the things I never did right until I stopped working was sleep. Um, people underestimate the value of sleep. Sleep. And sleep. Sleep is really, really important. Another thing that helped me kind of get back on track sometimes were my kids. Um, I have two children. I was a single mother for most of their, uh, time growing up. And you, uh, know, had my career and I had to make sure that I, I put my kids first, um, as much as I could. And obviously I couldn't all the time. But, you know, making sure that my secretary or my assistant was aware of all my personal commitments, parent teachers, you know, performances, events and things like that, to make sure that we could somehow fit those into my schedule as well so that I could be a parent. Because being a parent is really, really important to me. And so those things kind of helped me put my life in balance. I also, as I became more senior, I realized I could say no, which M. Uh, you can say no when you're junior too. But I didn't. And I, and, and I also think it's a generational issue. I think today's generation says no a lot easier than back at my time. I mean, at my time. And I'm making it sound like I'm really old, but in the 80s when I started working, um, and early 90s, visibility was everything. If you weren't in the office late, I mean, people in law firms would leave their lights on, go home, have dinner, and then come back to turn off their lights to make it look like somebody was in the office. And I'm honest about that. It was terrible, the visibility. You know, you come in early, turn your lights on, put your cone on, go down to the gym, them come back and m. You know, make sure that all the partners see that you've been there for some time. That is gone now. And I stopped that after some time, especially as I became more senior. There was an event where we were doing a transaction when I was at Valiant, and people were like, oh, we have to work through the night, and, you know, we have to work 48 hours without sleep. And I said, no, done that, been there. That is just stupid. But, you know, you can't think well. You need your sleep, you need to take a break. And. And so learning to say no came quite late to me. I think I'm very good at it now. But, you know, I think people need to learn, um, to be more confident to say no, which is difficult sometimes earlier on in life. Um, but. And also, nobody will look after you like yourself. I remember when I got the job, um, to be general counsel of Sandoz. I was living at, in Basel at the time and going through a really challenging divorce. And so I couldn't move to Munich, where Sandoz was. And so I had to fly. It's an hour flight from Basel every week to go there and come back. And I was telling the CEO at the time that, look, this, you know, I can't be there full time. And he said to me correctly, and he meant it in the nicest way, he said, you know, Christina, we're going to take everything from you, like, in the sense that we will get what we need up for you. You have to prioritize yourself because you have to make sure that you spend time with your children as well. Because we will just take what you give us, but you need to balance it. And that was very good advice. Um, and maybe I'm not using the right words. Um, he meant it in a positive way, not a negative way, but that was something I took to heart as well.

Speaker A: If I can ask you, uh, I guess a more an honest and direct question, knowing what you know now about health, about balance, you know, about prioritization. If you were to go back, you know, call it 15, 10, 15, 20 years, whatever it is, sort of mid, Mid point in your career, do you think you would have honestly been able to instill some of those values that you have now around health and wellness and still assume the same success that you ended up having?

Speaker B: It's a tough decision. It's a tough question. Not a tough decision. It's a tough question because I think corporate America has changed, though. You still need to. I mean, whenever I like to speak, so I speak at corporate events or, you know, women's events and stuff like that. And you do have to put in the time. Like, if you work 9 to 5, you're not going to end up in the C suite. I mean, who are we kidding, right? Like, you do need to. You have to work long hours. I may have had better balance. Um, I may have had a better diet and focused also on sleeping. Right? I not sleep a lot. I mean, four or five hours is not enough. I don't know how I sustained it for so long. And it does impact your health. And had I worked out more and had I slept better and eaten better, maybe I wouldn't have gotten sick. Uh, you know, I don't know that, but I probably would have acted a little bit differently. And so one of the things I do tell people, I love being a mentor. So I mentor a lot of, A lot of young people, men and women, and I do tell them, I said, you need to prioritize your children and yourself. And it's hard to do. It's so easy to say. It's so easy to say. But then when your boss comes to you and says, I need this by tomorrow morning, and often I will say often, there's no reason to have it like, that fast. It's just that he or she wants it that fast. Uh, and so one of the things I learned to do, and I think young people need to learn to do is ask, if that timeline doesn't work for you, is that timeline firm or can we, can we adjust it? Can I have an extra day or so? And often people will say, yeah, yeah, you can have an extra day. And so I think it's. It's important to, um, learn to push back earlier than I did. Um, and I probably would have. Would have changed that.

Speaker A: Love that. Well, what a great way to end, um, especially with that last piece of advice. Christina, uh, I really want to thank you. I want to thank you for, uh, for sharing your story. Both professional, personal, commend you on an incredible career and one that continues, obviously, as a board member. And a lot of the cool opportunities that you, I'm sure you will stay on top of, and hopefully we'll have you on again. And, uh, this won't be the last. Let's, uh, grab coffee.

Speaker B: Well, thank you for having me. This is fun. Uh, really enjoyed. You had some really tough questions, George.

Speaker A: If you found this podcast useful, make sure to share it out with your community. And if you haven't already done so, subscribe to the podcast and I'll see you next time.