Vibecoding Turns Legal Ideas Into Working Tools

1 - > SPEAKER_00: Welcome everyone. 2 - > This is your faithful podcast host, Charlie Uniman. 3 - > Two super guests on the podcast today, Matt Pollins of uh Lupal 4 - > and um uh uh Alex Baker, who is uh, as I've called it uh to him 5 - > and Matt, their day jobs lupal for Matt and and for Alex uh 6 - > Legal Tech Collective. 7 - > But both are heavily involved in Vibcode.

law, not vibecoding.law, 8 - > as I have mistakenly put it to Matt and AlexVibecode.law. 9 - > We're gonna spend most of the podcast talking about that.

10 - > Uh I uh I think we'll not need much of an explainer to our 11 - > listeners, but uh we'll get into some of the uh more important 12 - > issues and what vibecode.law talks about. 13 - > So welcome, gentlemen, both of you. 14 - > SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Charlie.

15 - > SPEAKER_00: Wonderful to have you. 16 - > So let's begin by uh giving each of Matt and uh Alex an 17 - > opportunity to talk about what they're doing currently uh when 18 - > they do what they do to pay for their pay for their shoes. 19 - > So, Matt, why don't you start by giving a little bit of your uh 20 - > professional journey into uh legal tech and tell us about uh 21 - > uh lupa, particularly what it does and and uh uh how it uh 22 - > differentiates itself from others out there in your space.

23 - > Go ahead, Matt. 24 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 25 - > Thanks, Charlie. 26 - > So I'm a uh uh lawyer by background, so I'm a technology 27 - > lawyer turned legal tech founder.

28 - > Um I was a partner with a law firm called CMS, which is a 29 - > large law firm in Europe, and I spent about half my career in 30 - > Europe. 31 - > The other half I was based out in Singapore, although strangely 32 - > never crossed paths with Alex, who was also out in Singapore, 33 - > as I'm sure he'll come on to in a minute. 34 - > Um, and about five or six years ago, I really pivoted away from 35 - > being an attorney into founding a legal tech company, which is 36 - > Lupal.

37 - > And Lupal is a work management system for lawyers. 38 - > So we're a place where lawyers plan, organize, automate their 39 - > work. 40 - > And as you know, Charlie, um, in law firms, there are systems for 41 - > organizing the documents and there are systems for organizing 42 - > the time and the billing. 43 - > But in the middle between those things is uh a space which is 44 - > who's doing what and what needs to happen next on my deal or my 45 - > case or my project.

46 - > And typically today that space is filled with word tables, 47 - > Excel trackers, and email threads. 48 - > And whilst every other industry has a work management system, 49 - > you know, you can't run an engineering team without Jira or 50 - > Linear. 51 - > In legal, we still have our Word and Excel trackers. 52 - > And so we take work out of those things, we put it into a 53 - > real-time system where it can be organized and automated.

54 - > Um, so that's the day job. 55 - > And then, as I'm sure we'll come on to, along with Alex and 56 - > others, um, as a weekend project, which has started to 57 - > become a bigger thing. 58 - > We recently set up Vibecode.law, which is a platform for uh 59 - > learning about and and sharing vibe coded projects.

60 - > So that's me. 61 - > SPEAKER_00: That's very very good, Alex. 62 - > Yes, please. 63 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thanks, Matt.

64 - > Uh so unlike Matt, I'm not a lawyer. 65 - > SPEAKER_00: Good for you. 66 - > SPEAKER_02: So my my background is in uh on the commercial side 67 - > of the technology businesses. 68 - > So I've been working with uh AI companies for about 15 years, 69 - > and my my my first role at a technology company actually was 70 - > for an advertising technology business.

71 - > And I accidentally fell into the world of legal tech in about 72 - > 2018 when a friend of mine was building a prototype for um a 73 - > legal tech startup at the time and uh joined that business, it 74 - > went on to be you know reasonably successful, and um I 75 - > then uh throughout my journey with that business, like I just 76 - > met a whole bunch of other legal tech founders along the way, 77 - > primarily lawyers in my background, and um they were all 78 - > looking to um commercialize uh the products that they'd 79 - > created.

80 - > So in the back end of 2023, I launched uh legal tech 81 - > collective, which is helping uh lawyers that are legal tech 82 - > founders, uh law firms that are productizing their services 83 - > through the creation of technology applications that 84 - > they're selling to clients, as well as more recently AI native 85 - > uh law firms to take their products into the market and to 86 - > commercialize them successfully. 87 - > And uh Matt and I, as he mentioned, have more recently uh 88 - > been working on myco uh.

log and um I'm really interested in what 89 - > what comes from those uh initially prototyped products 90 - > and what commercial benches can will we may potentially see 91 - > coming coming off the back of uh uh lawyers getting their hands 92 - > wrapped around live coding applications. 93 - > SPEAKER_00: Very good. 94 - > Uh well, if I may say each of you is doing God's work. 95 - > Um I say that because as a former practicing lawyer, I only 96 - > wish that I could have had some of the tooling that uh that Matt 97 - > described.

98 - > And uh as someone who, when I retired from the practice of law 99 - > 11 years ago, tried my hand at starting uh what I have 100 - > described on this podcast as the late lamented Deal Stage uh 101 - > legal tech startup. 102 - > Um I certainly could have used the advice that uh Legal Tech 103 - > Collective is now offering. 104 - > Didn't have it back then, my co-ferners, co-founders and I uh 105 - > you know didn't lose too much uh time and money, but uh Dealstage 106 - > didn't succeed, but others have taken up uh the banner to uh to 107 - > provide uh transaction management software uh in the 108 - > cloud.

109 - > So uh kudos to both of you for doing what you're doing during 110 - > daytime and in evenings and on weekends, and maybe increasingly 111 - > now. 112 - > Um uh more time uh is being devoted by both of you to to 113 - > vibe coding uh something, a phrase that uh didn't exist a 114 - > few years ago, um uh probably even more recently than just a 115 - > few years ago, came into existence. 116 - > And pairing the the words vibe coding and law certainly didn't 117 - > exist more than a few months ago, I would I would say.

118 - > Um tell us um how would you define it, and maybe you uh 119 - > could just each of you give us a few minutes uh so those who 120 - > benighted few who don't know what it means can get up to 121 - > speed and then we'll get into what's going on with it. 122 - > Let's start with you, uh Matt. 123 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks. 124 - > So um, in terms of how to define it, I think the term first got 125 - > used by a guy called Andre Karpathy, who's one of the 126 - > founding engineers at OpenAI.

127 - > He's since moved on to other things. 128 - > But um he used the term because he said there's a new type of 129 - > software engineering where you don't actually write code and 130 - > you don't necessarily read the code, you just give in to the 131 - > vibes and you've built software with natural language. 132 - > And I think you're right, Johnny said it maybe I don't know, a 133 - > year and a half ago, some something like that. 134 - > And at the time he he shared that he writes about 20% of his 135 - > code with uh natural language.

136 - > Since then, though, as of I think it was December last year, 137 - > he and others have uh have shared that they're probably 138 - > writing 80% or more of their code with natural language. 139 - > And then the term itself is starting to get stretched 140 - > because you have at the one end of the spectrum people who have 141 - > never written a line of code in their life and wouldn't 142 - > recognize Python if it came up and introduced itself to them. 143 - > And they're building apps, you know, using some of these 144 - > vibecoding tools.

145 - > So they're obviously vibecoders, but then you also have companies 146 - > like Spotify or even Clawed Code itself, which have shared that 147 - > they haven't written a single line of code since December of 148 - > last year. 149 - > And so there's an open question, at least in my mind, as to 150 - > whether those engineers who could write code, they used to 151 - > write code, but they increasingly act more like 152 - > managers of teams of agents, are those vibe coders as well?

153 - > So it's sort of become quite a broad term that that means lots 154 - > of different things. 155 - > unknown: Yeah. 156 - > SPEAKER_00: And no, it's an umbrella term, and uh there's a 157 - > wide spectrum, I I I gather, it uh in terms of what entitles one 158 - > to call oneself a vibe coder. 159 - > Uh lawyers love language, uh, vibe coding involves natural 160 - > language, as Matt had mentioned.

161 - > Uh, but how much more maybe necessary, and by more the sort 162 - > of thinking and analysis, problem solving uh the that that 163 - > may be called upon to maybe necessary to build apps. 164 - > Um we'll get into some of that. 165 - > Alex, you care to add a little bit to what Matt was saying, and 166 - > then I did cut you off, Matt. 167 - > I'll get back back to you too.

168 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I would I would just add uh yeah, I'm I'm 169 - > firmly at the non-technical, non-developer end of the 170 - > spectrum. 171 - > I certainly wouldn't know Python if it slapped me in the face. 172 - > Um there's it's no surprise the the big AI companies who have 173 - > started with the uh coding and software development as the 174 - > first area in which they have tried to um and successfully, in 175 - > my opinion, uh apply AI. 176 - > Because the faster that your developers can create and refine 177 - > and expand your own internal software capabilities, it's an 178 - > exponential um trajectory that you're then on because every 179 - > improvement that you make to your foundational model then it 180 - > makes it better at being able to create the next thing and refine 181 - > the next thing.

182 - > So um it it's it's really no surprise that that like I say, 183 - > those those big AI companies have have focused on software 184 - > development as their starting point. 185 - > Um but the the I think the benefit at the other end of the 186 - > spectrum, the the other end that I find myself in is that it's 187 - > just so much easier now to get started, to get off the ground, 188 - > to build something that it probably won't work when you 189 - > first start exploring with these tools.

190 - > But they are so capable that it enables anybody to be able to 191 - > build at least a what looks like a prototype out of the box with 192 - > some natural language. 193 - > And you know, if anyone is is capable of that, all you have to 194 - > have to really get started is is just an idea. 195 - > SPEAKER_00: No, I think that that uh puts it uh very well. 196 - > Uh lawyers love language, uh the that's their stock and trade for 197 - > the most part, whether uh uttered orally or in uh uh put 198 - > in writing.

199 - > Um so it's a natural segue, I think, to go from thinking out 200 - > loud with words uh uh and then uh uh doing so uh with the idea 201 - > of putting together an application of some sort. 202 - > And the idea behind putting together an application is to 203 - > hasten your ability to get productive work done and uh to 204 - > work with the tooling, uh, not to be replaced by it, I uh 205 - > hastened to add at the outset of our conversation, uh, and to um 206 - > dispense with a lot of the grunt uh clerical type work that uh is 207 - > the bane and was the bane for me as a practicing lawyer of so 208 - > many lawyers' existences.

209 - > Um Matt, were you did I cut you off or you uh when you were uh 210 - > uh elaborating on what you thought vibe? 211 - > SPEAKER_01: Not really. 212 - > I was I was just gonna almost build on what you were saying 213 - > there about I actually think lawyers make really good vibe 214 - > coders because we're very precise with language. 215 - > And a lot of the time when you're building an app with vibe 216 - > coding, you have to be really precise, you know, about what 217 - > you're trying to build and the changes that you want it to 218 - > make.

219 - > And so I think lawyers lawyers and vibe coding actually go 220 - > together quite well. 221 - > It's maybe taken us a little longer than engineers to get 222 - > into it. 223 - > Um, but I think we're really now just at the start of what we see 224 - > as being a wave of vibe coding coming to the legal industry and 225 - > across all knowledge industries. 226 - > SPEAKER_00: Uh well let's let's uh double-click on that uh uh 227 - > last point.

228 - > Um here we have practicing lawyers, men and women who have 229 - > clients that expect output that they can use to get deals closed 230 - > and litigations uh uh uh dealt with, hopefully settled, but 231 - > taken to trial if uh need be or on appeal. 232 - > Um these are the uh Janes and Joes that are in the transcripts 233 - > practicing law. 234 - > Uh so if they have the itch, or if they're encouraged by their 235 - > firms, uh to see what this vibe coding is all about, before we 236 - > get into how they can do it, what can they expect to see as 237 - > the benefits for their day-to-day practice uh by either 238 - > uh learning the vibe code themselves or after having 239 - > started getting better at it or relying on others in the firm uh 240 - > to vibe code and then making use of those uh uh uh skills from 241 - > their uh sister and brethren.

242 - > What what what impact does it have on the day-to-day lawyer? 243 - > Matt, you want to start? 244 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'll I'll take that one. 245 - > Yeah, so I I think the benefits are probably twofold of of vibe 246 - > coding for lawyers.

247 - > I think one is learning how the tools actually work. 248 - > So it's one thing to read about um APIs and MCP and voice 249 - > agents. 250 - > Um, it's another thing to just roll up your sleeves and test 251 - > them out. 252 - > And I genuinely think that you will learn much more about how 253 - > the underlying technology works by actually using it and 254 - > building things with it.

255 - > Whether or not you plan for those things to be launched 256 - > across your firm or or with your clients, you're just gonna learn 257 - > a lot. 258 - > And at a time when things are moving so fast, you know, it 259 - > feels like the world is spinning faster than ever. 260 - > There's a new model announced every week or every two weeks 261 - > from Anthropic or Google or OpenAI, and it's hard to keep 262 - > up. 263 - > I think the best way to do that is just to roll up your sleeves 264 - > and give it a try.

265 - > So that to me is is a key benefit. 266 - > Um and it's it's so accessible. 267 - > I was at a university recently doing a hackathon, and there are 268 - > a group of law students there who had never seen a line of 269 - > code in their life. 270 - > Um, but over a period of a day, they use Vive coding to build an 271 - > application, and it's exciting and it's fun, and it's a great 272 - > way to learn.

273 - > So I think that's one of the benefits. 274 - > I think the other is yes, there's a lot of legal tech out 275 - > there today. 276 - > I work for a legal tech company, Alex represents a number of 277 - > legal tech companies and works with them. 278 - > Um, but there are also a lot of unsolved problems in in 279 - > day-to-day working.

280 - > And if you're a lawyer and you're working on a matter, 281 - > you're often going to be closest to that particular problem, 282 - > whatever it is, that area of frustration in your day. 283 - > And the ability to just go build something. 284 - > Now, we can have the conversation in a minute about 285 - > how you go from just building a prototype to getting it rolled 286 - > out across the firm and using it with confidential data, et 287 - > cetera. 288 - > There are some paths to that that are starting to form.

289 - > As a way of getting ideas out of your head rather than writing a 290 - > long email to your IT department, I think that's also 291 - > a a benefit. 292 - > So to me, those are probably the two big benefits. 293 - > SPEAKER_02: Go ahead. 294 - > Yeah, I yeah, I would I I would expand on on that last point 295 - > rather than and maybe from my own personal experience, you 296 - > know, I started by coding just over a year ago.

297 - > And really when I did when I first started, it was it was 298 - > just about playing around to to to learn and to understand what 299 - > what the art of the possible uh was more recently uh it's 300 - > actually started to transform the work that I've been doing by 301 - > being able to decodify and productize my expertise and 302 - > experience into applications. 303 - > Now these aren't publicly facing applications, but um one of the 304 - > most recent projects that I've been working on is an audit 305 - > module for my business that allows me to be able to audit a 306 - > legal tech venture's kind of market capability.

307 - > So we look at everything from what their cap table looks like, 308 - > what their financials have been, and what they're projecting, 309 - > what their messaging is, what their pitch text says, does that 310 - > correlate to what's on the website, and so on and so forth. 311 - > And it allows me to be able to deliver a work product that 312 - > previously would have taken weeks to create in a matter of 313 - > days. 314 - > And it doesn't remove me from the process, but it means that I 315 - > can provide a better service to my clients and ultimately build, 316 - > in my opinion, a better business.

317 - > One that nobody that hasn't applied this sort of thinking is 318 - > able to replicate other than adding immense amounts of human 319 - > headcount. 320 - > So I think you know, the the work that I do is um slightly 321 - > more opaque and less structured than um, you know, if you're 322 - > thinking about a marketing campaign, for example, that's 323 - > that's less codifiable, more of that case, than doing a piece of 324 - > legal work that is built on top of the foundations of of 325 - > legislation, which yes is inter is open to interpretation, but 326 - > there's still a structure around it.

327 - > So I think um getting started and having that learning 328 - > experience is is is is great, but actually the world is your 329 - > royster once you once you get to grips with some of these tools 330 - > and and what they could enable you to be able to do in terms of 331 - > replicating your own capabilities and providing a 332 - > better service to your client as a lawyer. 333 - > SPEAKER_00: Well, that the both of you, that's that's a very, 334 - > very rich description of some of the benefits um features that 335 - > are available if you if you uh do more than just dip your toe 336 - > into vibe coding.

337 - > I I I I hadn't quite thought of it the way that uh Matt had, but 338 - > I think Matt is right. 339 - > Um these uh legal tech tools are going to uh uh encroach on more 340 - > and more of a lawyer's uh day-to-day work. 341 - > And if you if you do try your hand at vibe coding, you're 342 - > gonna have a better appreciation for how the bigger 343 - > infrastructure, firm-wide tools made by third-party vendors 344 - > work. 345 - > You're gonna be more adept at using them, you're gonna be more 346 - > adept at seeing where their holes are, uh, just because you 347 - > have played around with these vibe coding tools, learned the 348 - > lingo a bit, and gotten a sense of uh of how uh the thought 349 - > process works when you're when you're using these uh more 350 - > firm-wide tools, uh, all better handled, all better used uh if 351 - > you've if you've uh uh gotten into vibe coding and you can 352 - > transfer those skills to your your day-to-day work with these 353 - > applications from the big legal tech boys.

354 - > And and to Alex's point, and I myself running a small business 355 - > of my own, and uh, you know, lawyers, even a big firm, sort 356 - > of running their own small businesses, their practice 357 - > groups within the firm, you can actually make tooling that 358 - > you're not gonna put on the iPhone App Store or or uh the uh 359 - > the Android uh uh uh uh store as you know, Google Play. 360 - > But instead you're gonna use in your business, and you're the 361 - > best judge of what part of your business needs that, once you've 362 - > built them, tested them, and find that you can make yourself 363 - > a happier practicing lawyer because you can eliminate some 364 - > of the grunt work, you can do things with in a much more 365 - > compressed time frame than you otherwise could, and you don't 366 - > have to spend tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of dollars 367 - > in in headcount to get it done.

368 - > So um uh, you know, listeners out there who haven't tried to 369 - > do listen to what we have to say, it really, it really can 370 - > have a marked and in and and and uh beneficial impact on what you 371 - > do, on what you do in your in your day own day job data. 372 - > Today, as a practicing lawyer, or as Alex pointed, even if 373 - > you're outside the law but interested in uh in legal tech 374 - > in whatever small business you have. 375 - > Um so so I hope we've given people an an incentive, uh uh 376 - > whether their appetites for getting into vibe coding.

377 - > What is what is vibecode.law doing? 378 - > Let's let's focus on the law part of it. 379 - > Uh what is vibecode.

law doing to contribute to this uh uh nascent 380 - > uh and I hope uh more than just nascent soon, burgeoning uh idea 381 - > of taking people who are not technical as the term is used, 382 - > and allowing them to get into coding and and building some 383 - > sort of tool. 384 - > And what does vibe law do? 385 - > Either of you, go ahead. 386 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, shall I start, Alex, and you you can chip in.

387 - > So um we we founded vibe.code.law. 388 - > It's actually a weekend project, as you alluded to at the start, 389 - > Charlie.

390 - > Um, and Alex and I and and the other founder, Chris Bridges, 391 - > we're all based in the southeast of the UK and know each other 392 - > just socially through that. 393 - > And we founded it really because we felt like the conversation on 394 - > vibe coding had become a little bit polarized. 395 - > Between, on the one hand, we had people saying, look, I can vibe 396 - > code a uh an$8 billion company over a weekend um and all 397 - > software is dead, and everybody would just build tools when they 398 - > need them.

399 - > And then at the other end of the spectrum, you had people kind of 400 - > looking down on vibe coding and saying, Oh, what a waste of 401 - > time. 402 - > It's just a hobby project, you can't build anything real with 403 - > it. 404 - > And we felt like the reality was somewhere between those two 405 - > things. 406 - > And so we just wanted to bring a little bit of balance to the 407 - > conversation.

408 - > So that was kind of the reason for building it. 409 - > Um the other reason is that I just have a bad habit of buying 410 - > domain names and I just the vibecode.org was available. 411 - > So we just thought let's build something useful.

412 - > Um and then in terms of how we're contributing, um, it's 413 - > basically right right now we we effectively have two key 414 - > components to the platform. 415 - > We have something called Vibe Academy, which is an online 416 - > learning system where people can learn to build apps. 417 - > And we're trying to cater for both those who have never built 418 - > a thing. 419 - > So even if you've never built anything and you've been 420 - > following the stuff on your LinkedIn feed and you're 421 - > thinking, well, I'd love to have a go, but it all feels a little 422 - > bit out of reach.

423 - > There's a course on there that will teach you how to build your 424 - > first app in three minutes. 425 - > So we're trying to kind of cater to that end of the market, but 426 - > then also the community is sort of growing with us. 427 - > And we have some more advanced builders who have maybe been 428 - > building for six, twelve, eighteen months, and they're 429 - > interested in things like Git and the full software 430 - > development lifecycle and security and authentication and 431 - > some of those things, which um you know you don't do in a 432 - > three-minute video, they might take a little bit longer.

433 - > So that's the Vibe Academy piece. 434 - > Um, and then I don't know, Alex, do you want to talk a little bit 435 - > about the showcase part of the platform? 436 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely. 437 - > So once you've once you've started on this journey, um I 438 - > think I could speak for both Matt and I here.

439 - > There's really no going back. 440 - > Um, it is an incredibly addictive pastime. 441 - > And and what we wanted to provide for with the showcase is 442 - > the ability for those of us that have been experimenting to come 443 - > and showcase their work, to inspire others and to allow 444 - > everybody to learn from one another about again what the art 445 - > of the possible is using this technology. 446 - > So um, anyone that comes and submits a project onto the 447 - > platform, um, it will be showcased on the platform, but 448 - > also the wider community can upvote the projects uh um appeal 449 - > to them, and it will start in the not too distant future.

450 - > Um prizes at the end of each month for uh whichever project 451 - > happens to be uh the winner from from that particular in that 452 - > particular um time frame. 453 - > So there's there's lots going on on the platform already, I 454 - > think. 455 - > Um since we launched six weeks ago, something like that, 456 - > there's already been um more than 50 projects submitted. 457 - > SPEAKER_00: Wow.

458 - > SPEAKER_02: Um so things are really starting to get going 459 - > with this. 460 - > And um actually it's it's been growing a lot faster than I 461 - > think um any of us could have anticipated. 462 - > SPEAKER_00: Well, I want to see, I I was thinking national, nay, 463 - > nay, uh international movement. 464 - > Um I I want to see both of you uh grow this.

465 - > So it's a worldwide effort that um really uh uh takes off. 466 - > And and my suggestion here, and I'm speaking somewhat 467 - > tongue-in-cheek, you have to have merchandise. 468 - > You have to have t-shirts, you have to have uh baseball caps, 469 - > you have to have uh uh you know fleece uh vests and hoodies with 470 - > uh vibecode.law and uh you know clever phrases like uh keep calm 471 - > and vibecode on uh uh uh available for sale.

472 - > I I'll be the first to purchase the first t-shirt and hat. 473 - > I'm a big collector of those, just as Matt collects uh domain 474 - > names. 475 - > I collect uh branded uh merchandise. 476 - > Uh so uh when that uh gets launched, uh the merch, as they 477 - > call it, let me know.

478 - > I'll uh I'll I'll write a check. 479 - > It's it's only in internet. 480 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was gonna say that we'll have to vibe vibe 481 - > up the uh e-commerce part of the vibecode.law this weekend.

482 - > SPEAKER_00: That's right. 483 - > Exactly. 484 - > You know, I uh I want that soft uh baseball cap that I can I can 485 - > wear proudly and have people ask me what vibecode.law uh means.

486 - > But um, you know, in all in all seriousness, uh I I want to 487 - > emphasize again, uh you're not if you're doing this uh for your 488 - > small business, but more importantly with the law focus 489 - > here for work in in your daily practice, you know, it's the 490 - > distinction between building a full-blown uh app uh that's uh 491 - > sold commercially and and doing a little scripting. 492 - > Uh uh, you know, a small piece of code that once embodied in 493 - > something that can be viewed on a screen and clicked around 494 - > about can actually do uh work.

495 - > And and um and and I I'm thrilled to hear that you have 496 - > uh so many participants already contributing uh you know 497 - > applications that they've put together themselves, most of 498 - > whom I would assume are not uh computer science undergrad 499 - > majors and and uh decades worth of experience in coding. 500 - > The Vibe Academy, is that part of the Vibecode.law site? 501 - > Is that a separate site?

502 - > How do people get Yeah, it is. 503 - > SPEAKER_01: It's you know it's part of the same platform. 504 - > So um if you go to vibecode.law and then you just click on the 505 - > learn tab, it will take you into the the Vibe Academy.

506 - > And there are two courses on there right now. 507 - > One is unfortunately me, so more of my voice, um, showing the 508 - > build build your first app in three minutes. 509 - > And then the other is from our co-founder Chris, who's a uh 510 - > software engineer, turned lawyer, turned software engineer 511 - > and app combined. 512 - > Um and he covers some of the more advanced aspects.

513 - > Um so we've got a couple of courses on there right now, 514 - > would welcome feedback as well, actually, from listeners on what 515 - > would be useful. 516 - > Um, it remains very much a weekend project for us at the 517 - > moment. 518 - > So we just add new courses as and when we can. 519 - > Um, but we're very much open to ideas.

520 - > And actually, just Charlie, a quickly on your point about 521 - > international, one of the really cool things has just been seeing 522 - > these apps come in from other countries. 523 - > I think, Alex, within a week we had the first app, a week after 524 - > launch, we had an app submitted from Mongolia, right? 525 - > The Harvey of Mongolia. 526 - > Right.

527 - > And I just love the internet and LinkedIn sometimes that you can 528 - > launch something on a weekend in Sussex in the southeast of 529 - > England, and you know, a week later you've got a um an AI 530 - > application for lawyers in Mongolia live on the platform. 531 - > So we welcome projects from all over the world. 532 - > Um, and we'll get to work on that swag, Charlie, as well. 533 - > SPEAKER_00: Please, yeah, I love swag.

534 - > Um the only thing I was gonna add to what you said there, 535 - > sorry to cut you off, Charlie. 536 - > SPEAKER_02: But the the only thing I was gonna add to what 537 - > you said there, that is around this uh overused term of 538 - > collaboration, right? 539 - > But it's great to see people coming together from around the 540 - > world. 541 - > But one of the benefits that I I don't think we really envisaged 542 - > before we launched this is starting to see lawyers and uh 543 - > their clients working together on projects and the potential 544 - > for that, um, as well as lawyers and legal tech companies, as you 545 - > were talking to earlier, Charlie, is being able to have 546 - > that conversation with a vendor that you pay a reasonable number 547 - > of dollars every year to use their service.

548 - > Often um we've heard from lawyers that you know part of 549 - > the legal tech um vendor's offering is is is is a bit like 550 - > you know this is where coding allows someone to be able to not 551 - > just have a conversation with a vendor about what they might 552 - > like to see in their uh applications being capable of, 553 - > but actually show them what they wanted to do. 554 - > So there's all of these um potential benefits that I don't 555 - > think we really see properly materialized yet.

556 - > But it's gonna be really exciting to see that start to 557 - > develop and take hold and we're already having a couple of 558 - > conversations with law firms that are interested in running 559 - > their own um what we would call inadverted commas vibathons. 560 - > Um yeah, getting lawyers together to build internally 561 - > within the firm and equally to start bringing in clients to 562 - > build with them. 563 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, bringing in clients, uh a wonderful, uh uh a 564 - > wonderful marketing uh aspect to that for the law firm.

565 - > And I I I must add here that you know, having practiced uh in big 566 - > law, uh I know that uh those firms can afford, they have 567 - > budgets for innovation lawyers and all sorts of technical 568 - > people that can uh themselves do a wonderful job. 569 - > Uh hate to use the word, but it does serve a purpose, 570 - > interfacing with legal technology companies. 571 - > But uh in the UK and the US, uh let alone around the world, 572 - > there are small to medium-sized law firms that don't have that 573 - > kind of staff.

574 - > And to Alex's point just made, uh those lawyers could benefit, 575 - > I believe, I think that Alex would agree and Matt too, uh, 576 - > uh, from learning a bit uh of what vibe coding could teach 577 - > them so that when they, in the small to medium-sized practices 578 - > that they run, let alone solo practices, uh, can uh have that 579 - > intelligent conversation with a legal tech vendor about uh what 580 - > it is they want to try to have built, what features they're 581 - > looking for, and whether the tech in question can provide 582 - > those features.

583 - > And also not to second guess, but to be more analytically 584 - > critical of what the legal tech vendor has to offer. 585 - > Um the other uh point I feel compelled to make is let's not 586 - > forget the law schools. 587 - > Uh uh they have in the U.S.

, uh with which I'm more familiar 588 - > been slow, but the speed is picking up. 589 - > Uh the acceleration is happening to uh bring legal tech into 590 - > their curricula. 591 - > Uh I know they hold themselves out as uh often above that uh uh 592 - > plumbing aspect of the law, but let's get real friends and 593 - > understand that it's uh increasingly part of the 594 - > practice. 595 - > So if uh you're teaching at Harvard, uh don't think that 596 - > you're uh lowering your standards by bringing technology 597 - > uh into uh into the curriculum, and I pick on Harvard.

598 - > Uh but there are others like that. 599 - > Uh but I think if if whether it's you two or others in the 600 - > vibe coding space that are working hard, they ought to make 601 - > law firms, uh, I'm sorry, law schools much more aware of this 602 - > aspect of of uh what legal tech can can be in the law school 603 - > curricula. 604 - > So I I hope we can see uh law professors and law school deans 605 - > and law students jump onto vibecode.law and uh and 606 - > contribute.

607 - > SPEAKER_01: I couldn't agree more, Charlie, on that. 608 - > I um I actually almost think you could start even earlier uh in 609 - > education. 610 - > Like my son is only seven, and he spent the last six months um 611 - > at school in his IT classes learning how to log in. 612 - > Right.

613 - > And I'm gonna start a conversation with the school 614 - > about okay, in 15 years, I don't think we're all gonna need to 615 - > log in. 616 - > I suspect it'll be biometrics or something, so let's not spend 617 - > six months learning to log in. 618 - > Let's to Alex's point, let's have a mini vibathon and build a 619 - > game or something that actually inspires people to get into 620 - > building things from a younger, younger age. 621 - > So I'm I'm totally with you on that, and I would almost start 622 - > even earlier.

623 - > SPEAKER_00: Oh, I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. 624 - > Um I am violently in agreement with that because I I do think 625 - > that uh software is is not only eating the world, it it it's um 626 - > AI and uh uh eating software. 627 - > And and let's face it, uh, and I think you two gentlemen from 628 - > just getting your vibes, there'll always be a room, 629 - > always be room, or at least for the next 15, 20 years, uh, for 630 - > taste and judgment, those two war horses of uh humanity's 631 - > continuing contribution uh beyond what uh software can 632 - > provide.

633 - > But uh while I I bow to judgment and taste and think that uh we 634 - > humans still remain somewhat special, um the earlier we can 635 - > get people, whether it's in grade school uh or uh or 636 - > college, undergrad, or law school, uh better understanding 637 - > what coding and technology, IT technology is all about, the 638 - > better. 639 - > It's gonna make for a richer world, a richer life. 640 - > Uh, and uh you'll still be called upon to exercise the 641 - > judgment and taste that uh uh today's LLMs are nowhere near uh 642 - > achieving, in my humble opinion.

643 - > Um what uh what's on your roadmap uh for vibecode.law, if 644 - > you care to say. 645 - > If you don't, if you want to if you want to avoid that and keep 646 - > it proprietary, by all means tell me and and uh we can move 647 - > on. 648 - > But uh curious, what do you have any uh special things you're 649 - > willing to talk about that may be coming on down uh uh down the 650 - > road uh and that will be uh uh added to the vibecode.

law roster 651 - > of features. 652 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the main thing is swag. 653 - > We need we need a we need a swag. 654 - > Of course, of course, of course.

655 - > But but I mean actually you you'd be surprised how much of 656 - > our WhatsApp conversation is actually about swag. 657 - > Um but putting that to one side, the Vibe Academy will be adding 658 - > more more classes to it. 659 - > Um and then, you know, Alex, maybe you can speak to this, but 660 - > we are looking to do more of these vibe thons. 661 - > There's a big industry event coming up over the summer in in 662 - > the UK, and um we're we're looking at partnering with them 663 - > to to launch probably the biggest legal viber fund that 664 - > there's ever been.

665 - > Um so we're we're working a little bit towards that, which 666 - > is funny in a way, because that's actually in person. 667 - > Um so it's not all it's not all online. 668 - > Um but those are probably the the the two main things. 669 - > I mean, right now we're very much bootstrapped, we're not 670 - > it's not a commercial venture, we're not funded by anything.

671 - > Um so we may look to bring in partners at some point just to 672 - > cover platform costs and and swag and some of those other 673 - > things. 674 - > Um but yeah, those are probably the main things. 675 - > I don't know, Alex, if there's anything you would add. 676 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think prominently for for me, it's 677 - > it's about us getting the message out there, more um 678 - > helping more people, exposing more people to this technology 679 - > and what what they're able to do with it.

680 - > Um so that that takes a number of different um channels, if you 681 - > like. 682 - > One is as Matt mentioned, the the the ViBathon that we're 683 - > gonna be running publicly this summer. 684 - > But um, given we're an open source platform, um we're also 685 - > enabling anyone that wants to run their own vibe to be able to 686 - > take the platform and and go and run mini vibe thons in whatever 687 - > part of the world um that you operate. 688 - > So we're talking to a couple of universities here in the UK that 689 - > want uh want to use the platform and assets to be able to deliver 690 - > them.

691 - > There's a couple of legal technology associations that 692 - > we're talking to too that again want to run their own Vivathons. 693 - > So for us, it's just about trying to get the word out there 694 - > and getting people out of the learning curve and exposing them 695 - > to what is possible. 696 - > And I just want to go back to something that you were saying, 697 - > Charlie, earlier, about judgment and taste. 698 - > Again, one of the things that I found here, and I don't want to 699 - > labor this point too much, but one of the things that I found 700 - > in in being able to develop my own applications for my own use 701 - > is that I can apply my judgment and taste.

702 - > So I'm sure we've all been the in the position of using fun 703 - > technology for that, whether or not that's in your working life 704 - > or your personal life. 705 - > I just wish we could do this. 706 - > And I'm not suggesting for a moment that everyone's gonna go 707 - > out there and rebuild all of the different various applications 708 - > that you might happen to use in your in your um in your life. 709 - > But I've I've I've had a great um experience of building a 710 - > handful of things that are now completely tailored to my 711 - > personal taste.

712 - > And I think in the world of like legal, in the wider legal 713 - > community, if we if we think about all lawyers using the same 714 - > technology around the world, I think that's how you're gonna 715 - > start to eliminate preference. 716 - > So being able to start uh develop your own micro apps, 717 - > your own micro tools to be able to differentiate. 718 - > Um they're not gonna be a replacement uh for some of the 719 - > enterprise platforms that you're going to need, nor would it be 720 - > uh um a good user for one time to go and try and rebuild um 721 - > outlook it, for example.

722 - > Uh I certainly I certainly found that to be really powerful in in 723 - > terms of being able to tailor something for for how I want to 724 - > use it and how I want it to integrate with the other systems 725 - > and technology that that I use on a daily basis. 726 - > SPEAKER_00: Quite right. 727 - > Very much very much uh very much correct. 728 - > And I I've played around with that and I've uh uh just found 729 - > that it has uh the coding, the little bit of uh coding that 730 - > I've been able to do, uh vibe coding using uh you know Claude 731 - > uh code or Claude co-work uh has has just enabled me to compress 732 - > time uh uh when it comes to getting uh tasks done and 733 - > eliminate, as I've said several times before, some of the uh 734 - > routine repetitive grunt work that uh uh you have to have done 735 - > in running a small business, but that you don't enjoy doing.

736 - > Um we could go on and on. 737 - > Uh perhaps we'll have a another go at it. 738 - > Um but if people want to reach each of you, whether it's for 739 - > Legal Tech Collective, Loopal, uh, and of course Fib Coding, 740 - > how do they get in touch with you, Matt Start and Alex uh 741 - > next? 742 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, probably LinkedIn is the easiest way to 743 - > connect with me.

744 - > Um so just reach out to me on LinkedIn. 745 - > Um, also in the spirit of buying domain names that I don't need, 746 - > my blog is at agents.law. 747 - > Uh so you can um follow me there and I have a podcast and and and 748 - > stuff on that platform.

749 - > SPEAKER_00: Wonderful. 750 - > SPEAKER_01: Alex? 751 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so same for me. 752 - > LinkedIn is probably the easiest place to find me.

753 - > Um but if you do want to get in touch and have a look at what we 754 - > do, our website's legaltechcollector.com. 755 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've taken a look at the site. 756 - > Uh if you are at all interested in uh you know in getting advice 757 - > uh as a nascent uh uh newbie or even more later stage legal tech 758 - > company, uh do give a look.

759 - > And and likewise loopal that uh that that uh bridge between the 760 - > two areas of uh you know running a firm and practicing law, that 761 - > uh Matt Helms is uh a vital uh looksy uh for practicing 762 - > lawyers. 763 - > Um gentlemen, thank you so much uh for for joining me. 764 - > Uh it's been a uh great pleasure learning a bit, uh learning a 765 - > lot. 766 - > And as I say to so many of my guests uh here, when you're in 767 - > the New York City area on the other side of the pond, do let 768 - > me know.

769 - > 30 minutes outside the city. 770 - > Happy to hop in and and uh hoist uh hoist a beer at uh New York's 771 - > uh many versions of of Pubs. 772 - > And uh and uh look forward to a uh Viberthon in in NYC, either 773 - > under your auspices or because someone has gone to vibeco.law 774 - > already here and decided to uh to launch one with your help.

775 - > So thanks again. 776 - > It's been a great pleasure. 777 - > SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much, Charlie, and we'll hand deliver 778 - > some swag to you when we see you. 779 - > SPEAKER_00: Thank you.

780 - > Thank you. 781 - > Take care of that. 782 - > Thanks, Charlie. 783 - > SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having us on.

784 - > Thank you. 785 - > SPEAKER_00: Bye-bye. 786 - > Thank you for listening to the Legal Tech Startup Focus 787 - > Podcast. 788 - > If you're interested in legal tech startups and enjoyed this 789 - > podcast, please consider joining the free Legal Tech Startup 790 - > Focus community by going to www.

legaltechstartufocus.com and 791 - > signing up. 792 - > Again, thanks.