Never a dull day

Speaker A: Welcome to series three of Leading between the Lines, a uh, podcast from Alternique Inspired Growth that explores every aspect of people development. This series is hosted by me, Peter Thorpe and Rosanna Machado, coaches at Alternique Inspired Growth. After the success of series two, we're delving deeper into the world of startups and fast growing business. In the coming months we'll be speaking to a variety of business leaders to find out how they create a positive employee experience and empower their people to succeed. So make sure you tune in to discover how some of the world's most innovative organizations are thinking and the changes they're making to stay ahead of the competition.

Speaker B: In today's episode we're featuring the search first creative agency Rise at Seven, which was co founded in 2019 by Carrie Rose and Stephen Kenwright. They spotted an opportunity to combine expertise in digital PR strategy and industrial strength technical SEO to create bigger and um, bolder creative content. With revenue of $1.4 million in their first year and just under 7 million in their third year, they've grown to over 100 staff across Sheffield, London, Manchester and New York. I'm delighted to be joined today by their head of people, Danny Dacey. I'm Rosanna Machado and this is Leading between the Lines. Welcome Danny.

Speaker C: Hi Rosanna, how are you?

Speaker B: I'm really well, thank you. Thanks for being here today. It's great to see you.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, good to see you too. What a great introduction. You've really kind of stuck with summarized what Ryzen 7 has been up to in the last few years.

Speaker B: Oh, brilliant. And I wanted to start actually by just getting your take on rise at 7. So just tell me a bit more about, you know, the company.

Speaker C: I mean you really did summarize it quite well. Just search first Creative Digital Agency. Um, it's a leader I guess in the digital marketing space. We've won quite a few awards which you probably have noticed in some of the research or the stuff that you've looked into for the agency itself. Customers currently in the midst of expanding to New York. So we've uh, set up, we opened up an office there kind of at the end of last year and currently in the process of hiring into that as we speak. So it's one of our biggest focuses over the next few months and it's busy I guess, kind of in a real, in a real nutshell, um, doing some really, really great campaigns and some really great work and I guess the, there's never a dull day. It's really dynamic and led by A really passionate leadership team.

Speaker B: So I can hear you're really buzzing when you talk about rise at 7. So I really love to know what attracted you to working there.

Speaker C: I think I probably knew about the agency before I knew it was rise at 7. So having lived in London, I spotted some pretty cool looking marketing campaigns. There was one of the National Geographic where they did a spotlight on light pollution across different cities across the Behold. That was a Rise at Seven campaign that I found out when I joined the agency. Um, but I think the lots of things came together at the right time. I actually applied for a different role because I saw that they really focused on their people. They focused on kind of quick development or rapid development was mentioned in the job description at the time. And I just thought, you know what, I could, I could, I could make a head of people role out of this if given the opportunity. But I interviewed for a different role at the time and my now current boss essentially offered me the head of people role, uh, without even advertising it. So it was just a matter of different things coming together at the right time. But in terms of being really excited about why I wanted to work for the agency, I could see that the leadership team really wanted to focus on its people and I was essentially given a green card to play with lots of different things from a people perspective and use that as a bit of a springboard to experiment I suppose, from a people perspective. And Carrie is a really inspirational leader, you know, female founder, uh, female CEO. And when I spoke to her I really thought that, you know, we were coming from the same place and yeah, it's been a whirlwind but a really, really great one so far and we've managed to do some, some amazing things and to be honest, I haven't been disappointed just in terms of, of joining. It's hard work and you know, there's a lot in terms of what to do from a scale up perspective. It's a growing company. Lots of things are changing and they're changing at pace. It's, you know, it's marketing, it's creative, whatever. There's lots of things going on but it doesn't make for a dull day.

Speaker B: What I'm hearing is it's very fast paced and that kind of, that's exciting as well as exhausting at the same time.

Speaker C: Uh, yeah, I think that's a pretty, pretty fair summary. It's not for the faint hearted, I don't think, but it's the typical play, you know, work hard, play hard type of mentality and it all, you know, levels off and you get rewarded, uh, at the end of that.

Speaker B: And what I'm really hearing is that, you know, the values of the company really resonated with you and putting people at the heart. And I know you have a background in law. I'm just wondering how you use that background, um, in this role.

Speaker C: You know what? My law degree was probably the most painful experience I've had to go through so far. But it really did teach me quite a lot of transferable skills that I've not only applied in this role, but previous ones as well. So having gone through that degree, I thought, oh, I'll give, you know, the legal thing a shot. Worked as a paralegal for a bit. Then I went into the world of international HR through a consultancy helping kind of lots of different clients expand to different global markets. And the knowledge that I've brought with me into kind of this role that I've got now and ones previously are, uh, the skills of just being able to really work under pressure, but being able to apply myself to lots of different scenarios, kind of present things in a meaningful way to different kind of stakeholders. And then obviously you've got the real kind of baseline understanding of legal and what that means and obviously that really helps within an HR role as well. And in particular kind of for this role, I guess being a startup and being a scale up, to be completely honest, my title might say Head of People, but I might be pulled in lots of different directions. And having that kind of legal background and being able to kind of question things as and when they come your way has proven really helpful as well.

Speaker B: It's very inspiring to hear how transferable the skills are because I think, you know, in the past when jobs are advertised, they always ask for specific experience in a certain field and there are so many transferable skills. So it's great to see how you've really made that transition and made it successfully.

Speaker C: I mean it's only taken 10 years to a little bit longer. When did I graduate about 10 years ago to be grateful for that. But yeah, at the time I remember really not liking my degree. But to anyone listening, it doesn't really matter what you do because you can apply, uh, lots of different skills in lots of different ways. And yeah, I agree with you. There are, you know, from a applicant, uh, perspective, I think it's proven that females might not necessarily apply to a role unless they hit a good 95% of those of those requirements. Men, probably less so. But I guess the more that you apply yourself and the more that you can look laterally across the skills that you do have and how they can apply to lots of different scenarios, hopefully there'll be more and more people building the confidence to apply for a job that they might not necessarily have thought of applying before. And actually some of the pattern that I'm seeing from an HR talent attraction perspective is that employers are going above and beyond these days to mention on their job descriptions that if you don't feel that you hit all of these criteria, then don't think that it would be a hindrance to you applying anyway. So already we're seeing lots of employers taking that extra leap and that extra step to be more inclusive and to try and attract a talent pool that may not have existed as well before.

Speaker B: That, uh, leads really nicely on to kind of diversity and inclusion, because I think that's moved up the agenda for a lot of companies. And I'm wondering specifically rise at 7, how you attract a diverse workforce.

Speaker C: So from like a diversity and inclusion perspective, I, I agree. I think it has moved up the agenda and particularly from, you know, in the wake of the pandemic, I do think that those elements and considerations are so much more important for, uh, different applicants. Globally, people are looking for a slightly different thing. They're looking for a better work life balance and ultimately they're looking to feel safe and secure kind of within their workplace. In particular. At rise at 7, one of the things that we've launched is the, uh, Belong at Rise Diversity and Inclusion initiative. And the reason why we went with the belong or belonging approach is because rather than focus on a number or a particular group or something that might unintentionally exclude an individual or a certain group from kind of our thinking and initiatives, actually the focus on belonging sparks that curiosity in team members, in employees. It sparks that ability, uh, to want to learn and explore and learn about what different people might be going through or different perspectives and points of view. And to Belong is focusing more on a mindset and how to foster the kind of culture whereby, regardless of your background or where you come from or interests or whatever it might be, actually we're all striving and moving forwards to create and foster a culture whereby people do feel they can belong. And going back to, you know, that legal side that we were talking about before, the element of the psychological contract is something that stands with me since day one of doing, doing my degree and essentially the psycho. The psychological contract talks about all those other unwritten things, those things that might not be put in a policy or handbook or an employment contract, but it's more around kind of the behaviours that you would expect from one another and your employer. Um, and from that diversity, inclusion perspective, it's the psychological element to, you know, you expect to feel safe within, within your working environment. And part of that feeling safe and you know, to your question around attracting a diverse workforce is fostering a culture and an environment whereby people can speak their mind or feel that they're listened to and are able to share an opinion somewhere where individuals aren't necessarily, aren't blamed or vindicated and you look for solutions together. Rise at 7 is definitely wanting to foster all of those behaviors and we're right in the midst and right at the start of some of those journeys in terms of how to bring alive some of those initiatives and those behaviors. Um, but the leadership team and the teams, you know, want that and get behind that idea and it's really, really great to see and I think that as a result we can see that in the, in the applicants and the people that are choosing to, to apply at uh, rise at 7 because they want to be involved in that as well.

Speaker B: Brilliant. I love that about the kind of unwritten contract and the behaviours you expect. And I'm interested in launching in New York and as you grow and move into other markets, how you can maintain and foster that culture across different regions, different countries and you know, how much you can do that centrally and when you really need to kind of build local hubs.

Speaker C: So I've been really lucky to work in lots of different sectors and industries, I suppose. So in terms of when to build or you know, local hubs versus central, I guess it depends on the head count and also the type of business that you're operating in. But in terms of the culture, I do think that uh, hr, ah, today has a really key role to play and that role is in how HR can touch on and build on the culture of an organization. Because at the most strategic level, an organization's culture is going to impact its employer branding, it's going to impact its um, employee engagement and retention. So culture isn't this fuzzy thing anymore. It's something that really hit the bottom line and something that uh, employers up and down the country because of what we just discussed, you know, people wanting different things in wake of the pandemic, you know, life having shifted, as it were, over the last few years, culture is going to be a real strategic differentiator, uh, between one company and another. And in terms of kind of HR's role to play in that. Well, really partnering with business from like the very, very top levels down and being able to operationalize what that uh, kind of vision is and what those values are and bringing it to life in, you know, all of the stuff that you associate HR with. So policy, procedure, contracts, all of that. But I think one of the really exciting developments that we're seeing in hr, kind of particularly across some of the creative sectors, I guess, is the tie that I believe we'll see a lot more of it over the next few months and few years. But the tie between HR and kind of marketing and comms teams. So there's a real thing to say around what you're portraying on the outside needs to be reflected on the inside. And what an external marketing uh, strategy is really needs to be kind of telling the same story from an employee experience internally. So I'd like to see this space. I really do think that marketing teams and HR teams are probably going to come together a little bit more just in that kind of EVP and employer branding side because ultimately that is going to be the face of an organization's culture. Um, and going to one of your previous points, attracting that candidate pool to your organisation as well, that's really fascinating.

Speaker B: And I'm wondering, if I was to ask someone that worked at rise at 7, someone senior and someone very junior to describe the culture, what do you think they would say?

Speaker C: Well, as I said kind of before, uh, Rise at Seven is a startup, it's a scale up, so it's changing every single day and it depends on who you choose and at what point in time you choose to ask them that question. But I would hope that, or kind of, you know, some of the stuff that I'm hearing at the moment and what I would hope to be relayed is that, uh, Rise at 7 is doing its best to listen to teams and to feedback and it's doing its best to learn from what we've done in the past to improve what we're going to be doing in the future. And it also wants to be a recognized, you know, digital marketing agency and kind of within that space. And not only do we want to be doing award winning work for our clients, but we also want to be award winning from kind of an employment perspective as well. And actually luckily we have won awards in both of those sections. So not only are we being recognized for the client work that we're doing, but we have got awards for uh, being recognized as a good place of work to be as well. Um, but in terms of how people would describe the culture, you know, some of the words that we've used so far, even, even in this conversation, dynamic startupy, I suppose, um, hardworking, changing all the time. So yeah, it's not, it really isn't for everyone. But I think that anyone who's had a experience within kind of startup scale up will know exactly what I'm talking about. And then for anyone who is looking for, you know, a one to watch and an exciting thing to get behind, then I definitely think rise at 7 would tick those boxes as well.

Speaker B: Brilliant. And I hear a lot about, you know, it's changing and it's fast moving. Um, and you also mentioned there about the importance of listening to employees and giving them the chance. And I'm wondering how you create the space for employees to, to be listened to whilst moving at such a fast pace.

Speaker C: So I suppose for an HR team, one of the things that we've had to get really comfortable with is despite the fast pacedness is, you know, being able to hold a mirror up as well and just being the voice of reason. Just in terms of, okay, I understand that we want to move really quickly, but is it worth compromising on X, Y, Z for the speed of delivery? So in terms of that, a lot of the initiatives that we've worked on sometimes have been, uh, sometimes we work on the quick wins and something that will make a difference right there and then. So uh, whether that is, you know, for example, you know, you specifically asked about the feedback, um, a quick win that we managed to roll out was a feed anonymous feedback form to kind of enable anyone within the agency to come in and feedback on whatever it is that they wanted to. And we managed, you know, we've used that as a feedback mechanism and have been able to act on some of those things mentioned straight away versus a more longer term initiative. So uh, an example of that is that we put together kind of some forums that were facilitated by external coaches just to try and facilitate kind of more of a conversation around some of the bigger topics around diversity, around inclusion, around the role that people saw themselves playing in the next phase of rise at 7. So sometimes it comes down to balancing how to get the result or you know, what do we want to get and then working backwards from there just in terms of, okay, what can we do quickly now just to try and move the needle towards that direction versus something that needs a little bit more thought and more planning behind it. So we're kind of doing both at the same time from a people, people Team living uh, up to that dynamic fast pacedness of the agency whilst also doing good by our people by balancing it up with those m, longer term people initiatives that obviously need to be thought about and planned a little bit better.

Speaker B: So it sounds like you're kind of fostering a healthy tension between delivery and people and how you can deliver on both, bearing in mind that sometimes they might not all be both be complementary.

Speaker C: I mean to be honest, I think anyone in a job at the moment is probably balancing those, those elements as well. And uh, I guess one of the things that we do need to, or certainly I keep in the back of my head is anything from a longer term perspective. You just have to be prepared for things to move at the last minute. So not only from a macro perspective, like lots of things changing outside the place of work or outside the company, but I guess from a micro perspective and working within a scale up startup environment, it's to be expected that things may or may not, you know, are likely to change at some point during that delivery timeline.

Speaker B: And how do you feel about change in, in your life and in, and in your work?

Speaker C: So how do I feel about change? I think that uh, well for me personally I, I'd like to think that I embrace change because if you didn't then that's just kind of lying down and accepting the status quo and things could be done in a better way. But we're all human, you know, I'm human, you're human. Rosanna, like change sometimes, depending on what it is, can be difficult and being able to kind um, of get on that journey might need a little bit of encouragement now and again, whether from an internal perspective and you know, through having gone through lots of change experiences, being able to guide yourself through that or whether externally, you know, you might need to go to friends or family or professionals to help guide you through that change as well. So I think change is needed but whether or not it's easy is dependent on the situation.

Speaker B: I think I uh, find it fascinating because change comes up a lot in my coaching and I believe we should all embrace it because actually life is constantly changing. But a lot of us uh, think, oh, I'll just sort that, you know, I'll just move house and then everything will be all right. And then you move house and then obviously something else in your life changes. And the more we accept that life is constantly a flow of things, it's easier said than done. Um, but um, I think embracing change and seeing opportunities within it is amazing when it happens. But we all, it's hard to do

Speaker C: all the time, I think. Um, absolutely agree. But maybe, you know, an addition to that would be breaking change into bite sized chunks or something smaller because aiming for that new house or that new whatever, being able to embrace that whole thing all at the same time, not only is it probably logistically not the reality, but sometimes being able to gradually step forwards and gradually tick off things or break things apart just makes it a little bit more manageable over the longer term.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I think just moving one step towards your goal rather than thinking I need to do the whole thing is just helpful and make you feel like you're actually moving towards it rather than not achieving it. I'm interested in, you know, because you must, uh, in your role, some of that will be guiding your people through constant change. And I'm wondering, I'm interested to hear about your leadership style and how you go about helping people on their journey.

Speaker C: So I mean even hearing myself say some of those, breaking it down into bite sized chunks is literally how I approach kind of being able to lead our teams through any, any period of change, um, whether it's in this role or in previous roles that I've had. And I think for me the main elements of leading kind of teams and managers and people through change, um, or any kind of significant movement, I suppose is leading from a place of authenticity and leading from a place of empathy. So I don't need to know what a person is specifically going through or that, you know, I might not have felt that exact thing that they're going through, but just being able to kind of step into their shoes for a moment and try to look at something from their perspective, um, and as soon as you connect on that more human level, do those conversations, regardless of the circumstance, become a little bit easier to guide through and to help kind of managers and teams go through any of those periods of potential disruption. I guess, you know, I've been really lucky actually to work with some really, really great leaders. And um, some of the stuff that I've learned from them across kind of the roles I've had is another element in terms of guiding through that change is to kind of let people just do what they're hired to do. That you don't want to be a micromanager, kind of building that confidence and giving people the like autonomy and confidence to do something for themselves goes a really, really long way. And that's definitely one of the practices that I've tried to bring into kind of my own team in terms of managing People and how to get the best from them.

Speaker B: Brilliant. And um, you know, obviously you're doing that for your team. I'm wondering how you also look after yourself in terms of your own well being.

Speaker C: How do I look after myself? I think well, I'm a recent mum and having kind of had a small, small human to look after over the last few months, I think that one of the things that has become really important, or I didn't realize importance until now is definitely being able to be a bit more boundaried with time. And along with that means kind of prioritizing what you will do in the time that you've got given for a certain task or project. So for me that's gone a real long way in kind of well being because it means that you can keep a bit of a healthy balance in terms of what's going on. Um, the other thing as well is the importance of having kind of good communication. I think good communication can be a real foundation to well being not only for yourself but for others as well.

Speaker B: You know, you mentioned boundaries there as well and I'm interested because I think hybrid working has challenged a lot of people in terms of both communication and boundaries. So, you know, there's less generally less face to face contact. But also if you're working at um, home, it's easy just to answer, uh, keep going and not go for your walk that you would naturally do when you walked to the train station or whatever. So I'm wondering in terms of your workforce whether hybrid working has changed that kind of mental well being or boundaries within it.

Speaker C: So rise at 7 is a real kind of anomaly in the sense that it was an agency that was set up right in the midst of the pandemic. So from the very, very start the agency was working remotely. And actually it was a shift in a change coming into an office when you were um, allowed to. So I, in terms of the hybrid working, we've had a different set of challenges because we have wanted to encourage people to come into the office, but then also wanted to balance that up with, you know, the fact that a lot of individuals started working remotely for us. So how do we balance that going forwards in a, you know, EVP kind of what, what are uh, our employees looking for? And kind of where we've landed actually is that, you know, we are very much a hybrid organization. It's still, we're still working through the mechanics, to be completely honest, because things, things change depending on feedback that we get and just generally how we're working and you know, the environment that we're operating in as well, you know, we might have another lockdown in future, who knows? Um, but our agency, it's office or client meetings from Tuesdays to Thursdays. So Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays, we're expected to be in the office with Mondays and Fridays being designated working from home days. I think it goes back to the point of that communication piece. So yes, this is what we would like to, you know, uh, we would like our employees to work towards as an agency overall. But the well being of our employees and like how they work best is probably better for the agency overall. So if that for whatever reason isn't working, then there are mechanisms in place to have those conversations. So whether that's through us and the people, team or managers to look at what may work better for their teams, it centralizes on that ability and that concept of having that conversation, uh, to look at. Okay, if this isn't necessarily working, why, what might work best and kind of going from there, which.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's great because I think, you know, I know many companies, the sort of return to office was a blanket. You know, you need to be in four days a week and you know, some of those days it might be 12 hours of Zoom. That's not necessarily a good use of someone being in the office. So to actually have the communication and have those conversations to work out how to get the best out of people is great.

Speaker C: I think so. But I mean from like an office perspective, we like, we have got some, you have to come into the offices at some point. We have some incredible offices and. Yeah, and a lot of thought went into that just in terms of having, you know, private spaces for those phone calls as well as those like collaborative spaces, um, and social spaces as well to kind of really enjoy each other's company when we are in the same kind of place together. But yeah, you're right, kind of. I do. I don't think that we've seen the end of what hybrid working means. I think that as a population and um, organizations currently are working through lots of different scenarios and you know, it might be plan A, plan B, plan C. I think it'll be never ending, um, until the right balance is found.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think the challenge is it's not the same for any company or for any individual. So kind of being able to adapt and find something that works is, you know, it'll be a constant thing, constant change, I guess.

Speaker C: Yeah. And you know, it's looking at it from both sectors as well. So before, um, well, kind of before having baby for example, uh, I was able to, or I did take my little dog into the office, um, into Rise at seven offices. And yes, that in itself is providing flexibility because all of a sudden I could take my, my little pooch to the offices, meaning that I didn't have to be at home or arrange kind of dog walking. So uh, it really depends. And um, you know, for Rise 7 in particular, there's a lot of people that do own dogs. So the fact that our dogs, our uh, offices are dog friendly, that is flexible in itself because it enables us to be in the office but also be with our, with our dogs as well. And you know that makes a massive difference.

Speaker B: Oh, I'm definitely coming to visit. There's dogs as well.

Speaker C: Let me know.

Speaker B: Um, and I want to talk a bit about learning and development and um, slightly related to the hybrid working because I think one of the challenges that I've seen in businesses is around, you know, young people starting out in the workforce and that learning and development journey when you have less face to face time. Because a lot of learning is not necessarily doing a course. It's you know, you sit next to someone, you overhear something. It's more those casual conversations that is part of your learning. So I'm interested to hear a bit more about how you develop your learning development plans for the employees.

Speaker C: Yeah, and I think that that's probably a really good point that one of the reasons why we landed on, you know, Tuesdays to Thursdays being in the office is because a lot of our workforce kind of within the agency is first or second job or straight out of uni. And it's it, you're right, it's a lot harder to foster those skills when you're not seeing somebody face to face or when you can't help to share some of those non job related learnings and etiquettes and just essentially how to work kind of within, within team. But from the more kind of bread and butter learning and development perspective, uh, there's a lot of learning that takes place on the job at rise at 7. And one of the things that we um, have prided ourselves on in the past is being able to provide some really good training to individuals that join that, join the agency and then kind of support that through uh, coaching kind of. We've, we've had memberships to uh, coaching platforms and individuals have been able to make use of that as well. Encouraging our employees to speak at uh, outside events. So encouraging them to take on things like this, like speaking on podcasts and talking about what they've done in their experiences as well as taking on mentorship opportunities or being mentees. So there's lots of different ways that you can explore to go into kind of that learning and development umbrella. But one of the things that we have rolled out kind of this year is a, well, the beginnings of a career, uh, framework. So I didn't have enough time to roll it out, uh, from start to finish before getting on maternity leave. But the kind of MVP that was rolled out was very much a behavioral framework according to levels supportive of our values and put into a kind of PDP framework to encourage those frequent conversations between manager and uh, direct report. But to make it a little bit more on the onus of the individual to show, okay, this is the stuff that I've done and um, this is how I'm going to, you know, show and demonstrate that I'm kind of showing these values in everything, in everything that I'm doing. But in terms of kind of learning, development overall it's, it's going forward, this kind of framework is going to develop into team specific skills so that not only are we looking at uh, vertical career trajectory, but also it then dips into kind of longer term talent retention around okay, I might be kind of in team A, but what I want to be doing in the future is something under Team B. How can I get there? And then being able to have the kind of infrastructure and the learning and, and training there to enable that individual to take what they know from team A, apply it to what they need to know in, and be able to laterally move across the agency as well. I feel like we're probably a little bit away from that, but in my head I think that that's kind of a logical next step. You don't want to lose talent within an organization. You want to do your best to retain it. And if that is going to be giving people different opportunities to work on different things and learn different things, then I think it's a no brainer to include that as part of learning and development opportunities.

Speaker B: I mean it sounds like you're doing loads of different initiatives. Um, and I'm wondering how easy it's been to get the managers on board in terms of them supporting this for their direct reports.

Speaker C: So there's a lot of healthy appetite at uh, the agency in terms of wanting to do something better and wanting to have the tools and the skills to manage them. Some of those conversations kind of within the team. So overall I think Our managers are really supportive and they see where we're going and they want to be part of an agency that puts people really at the forefront in terms of our decision making. So from that perspective it has been easy to kind of get management support and buy in and get their input in terms of some of the people initiatives. I think the trickier bit has been on what do we start with first? Because as you said we're working on loads initiatives. We don't have the time as a team to focus on every single one along with the day to day stuff as well. So I think the meatier conversations are around okay, if we're prioritizing this, where does the other stuff fall? As well. But no, overall we have a really kind of engaged management team just in terms of people initiatives and people things. Um, so that definitely has made my job a hell of a lot easier.

Speaker B: Brilliant. And you just said there about kind of prioritising. Do you find that you need to set targets or ensure that people definitely do certain initiatives because otherwise they might fall by the wayside when uh, day to day work gets busy?

Speaker C: Yes and no. So yes, in the sense that kind of working on the SLT at uh, rise at 7, it's really nice to see that kind of uh, particularly at that level. Like we like take responsibility for different projects and move it along but equally at the same time kind of coming from an agency background, we're client facing. So a lot of the time there is the balance there around. Okay, if it's going to be a prioritisation, it's probably going to be fee earning work over people initiatives. But I suppose that uh, you factor that in to timelines as it were. So you look at things kind of overall, put kind of a project team together. One of the things that I've seen work really well is having the people team involved in even kind of more business related projects. Uh, because then their role can be one of facilitating those conversations, gathering that up, presenting that back to the business in terms of this is the stuff that we've heard, this is that we've been listening to and based on what you said then we should be focusing in on these areas. Does that sound right to you? Um, and you know, kind of even speaking that out loud, that's probably really, you know, very much a coaching approach to doing something. And uh, whilst I've been on maternity leave actually you know, been been looking a bit more into like coaching mentoring and that's one of the elements I'd like to, to bring uh, rise at seven is kind of phase two of people initiatives just to try and drive that accountability a little bit more. Um, and try and get kind of different individuals to hold, you know, be truthful to themselves about what it is that they want to work on but also what it is that they can be responsible for. Um, but also how and what they can support their wider teams with as well to ensure that yeah, those things and those projects can get across the line and we can plan for that to happen as well.

Speaker B: Great. And it sounds like you've got a really pragmatic approach to balancing fee earning work with supporting people because I think quite often in life we set our expectations too high. You know, we say we're going to run seven days a week and then you know, you don't do seven days a week and we quit completely. Whereas if we'd started with something more realistic we'd actually get it done. So I think you know, um, it feels like within the people team you understand the kind of the balance of fee earning work is a priority and but how can you support the people at the same time in a, in a meaningful way but in a way that won't mean it's always forgotten.

Speaker C: I mean to be honest I've got to give the kudos there to our, you know Carrie, our CEO who uh, yet despite kind of running a, and heading up a really successful agency, her huh, her philosophy I suppose in, in life is work hard but she definitely no expectation to work so hard that you can't enjoy life. And even you know, some of the initiatives that we've rolled out over the last like few months Summer Friday. So over the course of the summer our teams have just been able to like log off at 1pm and you know, go to enjoy their afternoon. Um, despite obviously being, being client facing uh, in a couple of weeks time the agency is being taken away on an agency kind of away weekend whereby kind of the office will be closed um, to for all intents and purposes closed on that Friday, um, with kind of backup plans for clients in place. But you know clients have been informed about that as well and so yeah I definite think that it is a fee earning professional agency but definitely with importance for its people and work life balance as far as we can at the very core of that brilliant.

Speaker B: And um, we've talked about other people's learning development. Tell me how you ensure that you

Speaker C: keep learning I think at the moment. Well, always trying to look at new ways of, you know, new ways of doing things. So do quite a lot of reading. I spotted a book recommended on LinkedIn uh, a couple of days ago, actually arrived in post today. So looking forward to reading up on that. And on the side I write a blog as well which means that I've got to kind of research into different people trends and initiatives and uh, what's going on today. So kind of keeping up to date in terms of people initiatives and other things that may be, may be happening and just generally trying to kind of upscale because I think I read today somewhere on, on a blog that our like learning and any skills that we acquire today will actually be essentially defunct in five years time because it just won't be relevant anymore. And I just kind of think, wow, there's a long way to go between now and I don't know when I retire and that's probably about 12, at least 12 five year cycles. Um, okay, no, sorry, slash that in half. Math's probably not showing as my strong point here, but at least six or seven cycles between now and when I retire. So that's, that's quite a lot of learning to do and like lots of skills to gain between between now and then. Um, so yeah, I guess it's just kind of being open to what that might be and, and not necessarily having a plan but just being open to learning new things every single day.

Speaker B: Um, and that's really interesting what you said about learning, you know, what you learn now becoming defunct. Because I think that's one of the reasons why coaching conversations in the workplace become more common is that years ago your manager was always more technically skilled than you. But quite often now you may be managing someone who has different skills, more skills, different skills. And actually the way to approach that and to still manage them successfully is through coaching conversations and actually exploring it with them. So I think that's become more common because of this, you know, upshot in learning and how much information we're all

Speaker C: consuming and if any of you should actually raise that. So I coach kind of separately as well. So this isn't anyone at the agency. But a, uh, conversation I've had recently with one of my coaches is that they were feeling quite nervous around starting a new job because out of the number of reports that were reporting into them, um, that they had zero clue about at least one of those roles. So the coaching conversation became, okay, what can you do to add value to that direct report if you don't necessarily know what they're doing on a day to day basis? And that is probably going to be a theme that comes up a Bit more over the next, you know, few years in terms of how can you, or how can you best manage somebody where you can't contribute necessarily to their technical knowledge because you don't, you don't have it. But how can you still be an effective and supportive manager and help them move on and do what they need to do in their career and. Yeah, exactly. It comes down to that coaching conversation and around what individuals can do for themselves and then how they can apply that, uh, within the working context as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, I agree. I think it's going to become more m. I mean I've noticed it more in the workplace that people more and I think it fosters a more open communication style amongst people anyway. And people, as you say, don't feel micromanaged because actually they can contribute to the conversation more meaningfully.

Speaker C: Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: So we're coming towards the end, but, uh, I just wanted to know if you could wave your magic wand and change one thing about your role, what would that be?

Speaker C: I think we kind of touched upon it just in this conversation. But the number of times that my default response to a manager or an individual coming to me around a potential issue in the workplace or something that apparently the people team has needed to resolve being have you spoken to that person around xyz, I think that would be the thing that I would change magic wand and do. Because a lot of the time something can be resolved really simply by having that initial conversation between kind of two adults and, and um, clarifying whatever it is that needs clarifying. And ultimately it would make my, my job easier, my team's job easier, and it would also contribute to building a much, uh, more positive relationship between those two individuals involved. So I think that would be my initial wave, a magic wand, because it was also time save a lot as well.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's funny because the longer those conversations don't happen, the more it builds up in someone's head about, you know, a certain issue and it escalates and actually having that conversation early probably, uh, you know, shortcuts that. And you realize actually I misunderstood it or whatever and you can talk it through, but you know, those things fester if they get left longer.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. And it comes back to that kind of communication style, like one person might be communicating in a different style to another. But regardless of that, just that, uh, you know, what's going on here? Have I misunderstood or what do you need from me? Can go a long way in preventing kind of further misunderstandings later on.

Speaker B: Fab and tell me what the next few months have in store for you.

Speaker C: So for me, I think kind of next few months will be finishing maternity leave, I guess. Um, I've still got kind of like a couple of toes dipped in the, uh, rise at Seven Pond. I guess they're still very much aware of what's going on there. But, um, some of the more kind of exciting stuff that we're looking at when I get back will be looking at our, uh, evp. So like, you know, I employ a branding piece. Like what, what, what's in store for their, um, looking at. So that's from like an agency perspective. Personally, I am, um, about to start a kind of mentorship program through the cipd, um, on one of their kind of programs that'll be keeping me busy over the next 12 months. And I guess it's just, you know, looking after that little human that I've, that I'm responsible for as well. So. Yeah, just quite a lot going on, I think.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Fab.

Speaker B: Uh, it sounds like busy times and a really exciting place to work. So thank you so much for your time today. It's been great talking to you.

Speaker C: Thanks so much for having me. It's been brilliant.

Speaker A: If you've enjoyed today's episode and you're interested in seeing and listening to more of our content, please follow us on our LinkedIn page where you'll find more industry related articles. Just head over to LinkedIn and search for Alternique Inspired growth. Rosanna or I will be back soon with another episode and we look forward to you joining us then.