The Faith That Cost Her Everything | Renée Bryan on the Morality of Money

Speaker A: Well, hey there. My name is Julie Wagner and this is the Leadership Clearly Podcast. Now, if you are joining with us online for the very first time, this is my very first video episode. Now, mind you, I have, I think 38 episodes out on audio only, but I just felt the nudge and the push and the calling to also turn it into video. So welcome. So happy you're here and for all of my listeners, I am just so honored that you continue to stay with me. I'm so excited for the trajectory of where this podcast is going. I am also a leadership coach and what I do is I help leaders find their voice. In leadership, we often tend to borrow somebody else's voice. Maybe it's someone we learned from, maybe it was a boss that we really admired. And so we started to pick up how they were leading and what their voice actually sounded like. And yes, I am actually talking about tone as well because we totally can pick that up. And what I do is I help you find your God given voice. Founders, business owners, executives, ministry leaders. The people carrying the real weight for the real people in the marketplace and in ministry. We do not do surface here, okay? Get nitty and gritty. We talk about what leadership actually costs and sometimes it sucks. Uh, we talk about what it takes and again, sometimes is really, really hard. But we also talk about where God shows up in the middle of it. Now, before we dive in completely, I do want to preface this video probably looks great because I am filming in my kitchen and I have my beautiful sunlight coming through. It's about 6:30pm on a. My office is currently under construction. It's going to look so great at the end of this week, but actual video itself. While I was interviewing Renee, I realized, and this is totally a rookie mistake, so please give me grace again. This is my very first, uh, video podcast. My camera, interestingly enough, is too professional for the cables and what I was recording on. So I had to go pick up this nifty cam link 4k, which I'm not using right now because I couldn't get the stinking thing to work. And I am pretty technical. So I will be doing a lot of Googling tonight before I record next week's podcast. But this is what you get today. So again, you're gonna see me, just me. Renee looks great on camera. Mine is lagging and you'll see like the quality is good. It's great. Quality is, but it's lagging because my camera is a little too fast for what was happening.

Speaker B: So.

Speaker A: And, um, that's like in layman's terms, of course, if you're a techie person, you know exactly what I'm talking about. So now we can go ahead and dive in.

Speaker B: My guest today spent 35 years in the financial services industry, training financial advisors and brokerage houses across the country. She was good at it. She was really good. And then in 2012, something shifted. She committed more deeply to her faith, and almost immediately, her six figure income dropped to one sixth of what it had been. Now, instead of walking away from God, she leaned in. And what she learned in that season became a book. The Morality of Money isn't a book about budgeting. It's a book about fear, ethics, calling, and what it actually means to handle money in a way that aligns with who you say you are. It will challenge some of the things you think you know, and I promise it's worth it. So please welcome author, speaker and Fearless Finances host Renee Bryan. Welcome to the show.

Speaker C: Oh, thank you, Julie. It's so great to be here. Honestly, I. You're just a, uh, wonder. I just love it. And thank you for the kind words.

Speaker B: Of course. Anytime. So, Renee, before we dive in, I would love for you to just. I know I just gave you an introduction, but tell the audience just a little bit about yourself.

Speaker C: I'm a mother of two and I actually dedicate my book to them. It's probably the best thing that I've ever done in my life. And probably a lot of the women out there can empathize with that feeling too. And, uh, I'm really grateful that both of them are pretty good with money too. So I think it speaks to being around some core principles as it relates to our financial matters. But right now I live in Mexico. I decided to move down here to finish the book and to save a little bit of money. It's just plainly to less extreme expensive to live here. Also say that expats like us moving down here have driven up the cost for the Mexican people too. And I think even that thought and that theory ties into some of the things behind the book. In everything that we're doing, there's a trade off, uh, and we can try to do it with moral integrity and a real design for living or not. And we see that or not working in our society today.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's wild. I don't think a lot of people take that into effect when we do those type of, you know, migrating to a new country and then, uh, we don't. I don't think that a lot of people take that into thought. It's actually really something important to think about. I just, I love that. That's so great. Thank you for sharing. I'm very jealous because you probably have the most beautiful weather and beautiful oceans. Are you close to the ocean?

Speaker C: Three blocks from the Pacific, yeah. Um, and I could never afford to live there in the States, but here I have a fully furnished, two bedroom, two bath condo for about a thousand dollars a month with a view for the ocean. But yeah, I think the season's coming to an end because I miss everyone at home and the travel from Mazatlan is a lot, but it's always still here. And I think apart from the book is even though there might be seasons to where we are in this moment, those seasons don't have to last forever and we can always.

Speaker B: That's beautiful. Let's, let's just dive in. I'd love to go over your story and let's talk about the faith that cost you everything. Right. So Renee, your book opens with a moment that most people would consider a faith failure. You committed more deeply to God and your income dropped to one sixth of what it was almost overnight. I know that can be really scary. As someone who recently was scared, unemployed, I totally get that. So tell us what it felt like and what made you not walk away.

Speaker C: I'll start with the what it felt like. I have always, and maybe some of your listeners can relate to this, put some of my worth into what I can do. Since I've been a successful businesswoman. What I can do is be successful, make money, help the companies that I work for, make money being top in sales, getting promotions, building a successful business. This was all part of my self worth. And ah, when it went away, I had to rethink who I really was and uh, what really mattered. And the second part of your question, why I didn't walk away? Because I knew in the core of me I was on the right path.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: That this was a journey worth having. And in this journey, in this life weren't really promised anything. It is so true. And we don't, I think especially in American culture, we don't necessarily think about it that way. That's been another blessing. Watching the Mexican people and how grateful they are with so much less and how they prioritize family and relationships and community over financial worth. Not everyone, right. These things aren't universal with everyone. Not everyone in um, America is a certain way and not every Mexican person is a certain way. But their culture is very different than ours. And so when this happened to me. In fact, when I pre read the question that you had sent me, I was like a little dumbfounded. Why didn't I walk away? How am I going to answer that? And the first thing that came to mind was Peter when he said, where else would we go? That's essentially how I felt. Like so many other things in my life had been taken away. And I walked through the door of that church looking for solace, looking for support, looking for what I didn't have outside those doors. And there wasn't really anywhere else to go. And I knew I would find what I needed inside. And not that church is everything, but it certainly gave me a launching ground to explore my faith.

Speaker B: I love that. Okay, so, Renee, how long have you been a believer and a follower of Christ that was able to give you that type of foundation that you were able to say, okay, look, I know that this is crazy, uh, my life has flipped upside down, but Lord, I'm gonna trust you in this moment. How long have you had that type of faith with Jesus?

Speaker C: I wanna say always, but my journey hasn't been an always journey.

Speaker B: All right.

Speaker C: I was raised in a household of faith. My mother was Catholic. I was initially Catholic. She started attending a Pentecostal church. I went with her as a teenager. Now, I will say I was not, uh, strong in my faith then. I used it as a way to get to know other people, hang out with other teenagers. If it's okay for me to share. I even remember at that stage of my life breaking into a Catholic church and drinking the wine, the holy one. It's okay.

Speaker B: We've all done things when we were kids that were like, oh, I have some church stories for you too.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: It's a little bit like I was at band camp, but it's like I was at church camp. There's similar stories.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: I, uh, love it because we're all

Speaker C: just trying to figure things out. Into my adult years, I would. I've always had a core belief in my heart. Like I said, I've always felt spiritual guidance. I'll even say in my life, and I'm blessed for it. But I got to a season in my life where I just didn't really feel like faith was working for me. Yep. This whole thing wasn't giving me the returns. And I'll never forget during my divorce, at about 3 o' clock in the morning, I sat at my dining room table yelling at God, if you're there, where are you? Can't you just talk to me? And, uh, looking back on it. I honestly believe I used this moment in time to walk away from my faith because I knew if I stayed in the faith lane, God was going to ask things of me that I did not want to give up or do. And my only way to do what I wanted to do was to walk away. And during that season, I would say ridiculous things like, I'm an agnostic. There's lots of proof in the universe of God. But, uh. And, um, then what do you follow the but with? I mean, like, really, what can you follow the but with? But then, enough things in my life had fallen apart that I did walk back to the church. And that's why I knew in that season, there wasn't anywhere else that I was where I needed to be and I was going to lean into this. And I really do think whenever we're faced with life challenges, we really only have two choices. One of them is to lean into faith, and one of them is to turn our back on it. And in my experience, the turning the back didn't work.

Speaker B: Well, thank you for sharing that with us.

Speaker C: I appreciate it.

Speaker B: Uh, okay, let's dive in a little bit more. So you write that finances collapsed. You felt God seen.

Speaker A: You've learned many lessons, but it's time

Speaker B: to see this through his lens. Right. What did that mean practically for you in one of those earlier days when the numbers weren't working?

Speaker C: When I think about that season, initially started doing all the worldly things that I would typically do. Yeah, I sent out more mailings, I cut our prices. I did all of these things that I thought would work. And I even talk about doing a little bargain with God. If you bless me financially, I'll give all my extra. And I even remember that day sitting in the pew, full of fear of what the future would look like and, uh, saying, hey, if you do me this solid, I got your back. Let me be one of those people that you bless with worldly riches, and I get to be the person who gives it away. But inside, I always knew that there's something way more important than just the money. And I also knew, having worked in financial services, a lot of the things that were not part of my moral compass. In fact, I've left jobs because of the way that they were managing the investor money in the back office, what they were using it for. And, uh, we know this happens in corporations all the time. At this moment in this season, it was like, is that really where you want to be? And I knew the answer to that was, no, not at all. So that I knew was part of the lesson. And I didn't know it would also relate to helping other, uh, people manage their fear and their money. That came much later.

Speaker B: Okay, so you describe a fascinating correlation, and I think this is one that's really going to hit with people. The deeper you committed to your faith, the more clients disappeared. Knowing what you know now, what do you think God was actually doing in that season?

Speaker C: There's two things that I look back and know were happening. One of them was God was moving me toward the book. Love it. You are blessed with a talent, with an understanding. And, uh, there is another place. There is a bigger niche. And I don't mean I'll make a ton of money in this niche. I would have made more money in the other one.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: The reality is I just want people to understand the basic financial messages in this book to help their own finances. And I'm willing to give it to people, uh, when they need it without having to pay for it because it is that important. People are on a solid footing and it fits in with the whole theory of the book, like the morality of money. Honestly, what would Jesus do? Jesus didn't expect people to come forward with money. So I know part of it was to move me to the season that I'm in now, this season of spreading the word and building new relationships, having greater community. That's why I loved your response to my email. You were just instantaneously, this is something worthwhile and I wouldn't have met you and your listeners if it wasn't for all of these other things. And this is the second reason that I believe things changed is my heart changed. And not everyone who was in my classes wanted to hear the new message that I had.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Some of my ethics courses talk about things like racism, okay, Evolution, past some of those things, uh, messages that God's laid on my heart that fit into the curriculum that I teach that not everyone wants to hear. And it is hard, just like I talk about in the book, to balance morality and money. And this is also why Jesus spoke so much about. It was the money, it was the greed that kept people from walking the real path.

Speaker B: It is, it's so hard. And I. So here is the verse two. And it just kept popping in my head, right? This is.

Speaker C: I hm.

Speaker B: A lot of people miss this. They just say, money is the root of all evil. And I'm like, oh, hold on, wait a second, you're not reading the whole verse there. For the love. Money is the root of all evil. So when people put the money above everything else, I know firsthand when I put money first, it never works out. There's never enough. There's never enough. And that is something. Uh, I actually took your book. I actually read the book this last weekend, guys. It is a great read. My husband is currently reading it because again, we're on a newer, interesting financial journey because I was laying off from my corporate job. So God heart to just really push into my coaching, really, so into the podcast and see where this can go. And I've had some really great mentors that have given me some very solid advice. And they are. They're mentors in. In my faith, but also mentors in business. And they run very similar businesses. So it's like a. We're technically. I guess technically we could be considered competition, but we're not. And so it's really cool to see how the God math works, right? God, it's God math is wild.

Speaker C: To that point, though, I'm really excited to see your journey too, you know, because I have to believe that this is all happening so that you can have a journey of sharing something new, something beautiful, something different that the world needs, something that only you can offer to the world. Because that's another part of, um, that's going to be part of my next book is. Is seeking our authentic self and clearing out the clutter to be able to bring that to the world. Because that's what God created us for, is that unique footprint out there.

Speaker B: I love that. That's so good. That's so good. And I'll be honest, sometimes in those moments where you're still processing the loss of the corporate position. I actually had one of my former employees reach out to me yesterday. And I've been trying to, uh. Cause I didn't know everybody who got laid off in my team. It was a very. It was a large layoff. So I didn't know everybody who got laid off. I had an inkling, but I didn't. I wanted to give people their space. Right? I'll give people their space. I'm continuing to post on LinkedIn and I'm keeping my LinkedIn very, very encouraging because I feel like that's what God's been calling me to do, is encourage people, but also to encourage people with the faith. Right? And when I was working with a corporation, it's a, uh. Like, we don't talk about religion on LinkedIn. It's not appropriate. And so now I'm like, guess what? God's my boss, so he's The CEO of my company. I'm gonna post about him on a regular basis. I have had more. Interestingly, I've had more followings, and more people reach out to me, and they're like, thank you for encouraging us in this. I really needed to hear that. I had Elena reach out on LinkedIn the other day. She's like, I don't believe in God. She's like, but, man, I'm starting to see it. And I was like, I'd love to share it with you if you were one. But back to my employee yesterday, I was driving home, and I hit the play button, and I'm listening to my car. Siri read back this very long text message, and I'm sobbing, absolutely sobbing, because what he said in that text message was everything that I needed to hear in that moment. It was absolutely wild. I'm like, God, thank you. Right? Like, all I could do was thank him for that. And then, of course, I messaged him, and I was like, oh, my gosh, and this poor guy's getting married in two weeks. And so I was like, let's get a little extended vacation. I was like, now you don't have to worry about work while you're on your honeymoon. So look on the bright side, right? God really does give us what we need, like, when we need it. Yes. So I love that. Moving to the practical spirituality for the real decisions that our listeners have to make. And I'd love to, of course, use yours. So the concept, you call this the flow, and, uh, you're very careful to make it accessible to people of faith or to no people of no faith at all. So for our listeners who are Christian leaders, how do you describe the flow in faith language? And why was it important for you to write it in a way that didn't exclude people?

Speaker C: I just got the goosebumps. And for those of us in spiritual circles, that usually means a touching of the Spirit.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Flying through. To me, the flow is the Holy Spirit. It's the energy in the universe that guides us to greater good. And the flow is constantly there. The flow is constantly at work in people's lives, whether they recognize it or not. Um, and the reason that I want to make the book accessible to all is that's who God is. That's who Jesus was. This isn't a, uh, one size fits. All of us have a different spiritual sense. Yes. So I make it accessible to all in. The flow is technically, to me, the Holy Spirit. At least that's how it would look in Christian circles. And in those seasons that I described when I was trying to turn my back on faith, that was still there.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Those things were still happening in my life. It's not something we can walk away from. Loves us and will always be there for us.

Speaker B: No, I love that. I love that. It's so true too. Right. God doesn't go away when we tell him to go away. He doesn't go away. He still just sits quietly in the background. And I love that. I love that. That again, that's that patient heart posture

Speaker C: that God has that we as humans, we don't have that.

Speaker B: No, we just.

Speaker C: We think. I refer to my relationship with God as the healthiest relationship I've ever had.

Speaker B: It's very healthy. Well, and it's true again, reading, finding yourself in the word, reading your Bible, it's crazy how healthy your relationship with God becomes. And then when you have that healthy relationship, it pours over into your other relationships too. Right. God teaches you. He teaches you the finances, he teaches you the communication. Like all of the things you need are in the 66 books that are written in this Bible and put together. It's so crazy how so many people who say they're Christians, they don't read their Bible and they're just living these lives of chaos. And then, uh, it's just wild how the moment they start reading that Bible, the moment they start diving in and actually learning the heart of God and learning all of that, how it shifts, it just, it's like a. And I know again from personal experience, because again, we're all human. I've been there, you've been there. We've all got. Right. Got the T shirt. Okay, so you, you lay out. I want to dive into your framework because I'm a framework nerd. Okay. I love frame perfect stones. It is part of the, I, um, would say OCD that I carry. I have a very clean house. And now that I'm not working full time, working, like, let's, let's rephrase this. Now that I'm not working 80 to 90 hours a week now, I'm really only working 40 to 50 hour week, which is wild. I have been cleaning so much and my house has bought, um, me a, uh, model of them out there. And it's quite funny when people come over, they're like, is there any dirt on your floor? I'm like, you do not even want to see what I cleaned last. And it's so crazy. So I do a left brain. So you lay out an eight step framework for navigating decisions in God's economy, which I find fascinating. Runway. And these are things that are like, you know, go where the doors are open. Let your heart sing. So walk us through how you use that framework when you're trying to figure out whether to write this book, because I think that story is pretty remarkable.

Speaker C: Yeah, it's funny because when I was writing the book, it was this, this section wasn't even part of the original outline. Uh, and I'll also say that I didn't necessarily even want to write a financial book. I wanted to write the book I just described to you a minute ago that I still want to write. And I've got other, other titles I'd like to write too. But that's how I figured out to write this book. Because I guess these are things that I've just always customarily done. Uh, here's the problem, here's the list. And I start working through the list. And I, I used to. And I describe this in the book. Force myself to do things I didn't have the energy for. And, uh, just like you said in part of the question too, like, how do you tell between the things you have to do that you have no energy for and the things that you should be doing? And, you know, think about how I used to make choices around this and how I still do. It's still based in fear. Like, I'm afraid I won't have energy for it ever, and it'll never get done. Uh, maybe it's like your dirty floor that you just described because their girlfriend. There are times I do not want to clean the floor. Yeah, that is not something I want to do. Uh, but I know the floor needs to be cleaned.

Speaker B: Feel it. I have a whole family. I got young adults and teens and dogs and a husband who's work, who works a blue collar job. I have my floor smoked. I do, I admit, I do cheat a little bit. I have a narwhal. Bought a used one. Love those things. Marketplace for about 100 bucks. And it was a little older, so I had to replace the battery. And some of the stuff, I tell you, that was the best, let's call it, $150 investment ever. She mops for me. I had her mop three days in a row. Because again, it's very. We have a lot of smoke here. So for those of you who are not in the Pacific Northwest, which is the majority of people, we are having fires surround us from Canada, Oregon, California, Idaho, Montana and Washington too. So we have all of this air quality, our air quality. I checked earlier. We are the worst air quality in the world right now. And that's why I sound like this, by the way. I sound m a little rough because the air quality. So we're talking about fear and money. And I love that. I think that is a perfect segue into this next section. So you open chapter three with a Hedy Lamar quote. I win because I learned that scared money always loses. Wow. We hear a lot about fear in leadership circles. I know I've talked about it a lot. I'm sure there are plenty of other people that have talked a lot about fear in leadership circles. But you're specifically tying fear to financial outcomes. Give us a concrete example of what a fear based financial decision looks like and what it costs.

Speaker C: And this is the thing for me, everything breaks down to money. And I don't mean that I prize the money, but every moment of time we are making exchanges that, uh, can either reward us at some level or not. And I will tell you, I'm not trying to say that we need to be active and currently going after money all the time because I got to tell you, those stupid games on our phones waste way too many hours of my day. But I need that time to reach. At least that's what I tell myself. So every single decision we're making is in my mind equating to a financial cost. And so when you were first asking me this, I was thinking about the season that you're in. And you right now, like me, are going to be making a lot of decisions that will either propel us into a certain future, not. And I think about all of the people out there who have had an opportunity to bless the world with some gift, some, um, unique talent, some story, some medical breakthrough that they were afraid to cross the threshold. I don't know what those things are. I don't. But what I do know is there's lots of stories out there like that. And I would hate for anyone anywhere to miss out on the opportunity to gift the world with something good because they were afraid to try.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And I can't promise that there'll be financial reward when you cross through, but a little bit like how your message got rewarded with. I needed that. I don't know about you, Julie, but to me that can be more important than a few other pennies, because God only knows what that will do to fortify that person to make a choice they need to. And that's the part of this process that I can't control. I Can't do anything about. All I can do is follow the flow where I need to go.

Speaker B: I love that you make a distinction between healthy fear that motivates us to change and then Catholic fear that drives us to make bad decisions. So as a leader and a person of faith, how did you learn to tell the difference between your own decision making? I think that this is something the listeners are just going to really eat up.

Speaker C: Uh, I'll tell you about a season that I'm going through right now because my business is continuing to decline. And you said something earlier too about I don't miss it that much. Oh, we were talking about your photography career and some of, uh, the things that you experienced there. And I think it's great that season is over and you're ready for it or you were ready for it when that season changed. For me, right now I'm not ready for this and I might be getting a little teary eyed here. And this is also part of my process is I believe emotions are God given and it's what the spirit uses to move us to. I love so many of my customers from my other business and so many of them are retiring, moving into other seasons. They're not coming back to class and as a result my classes aren't the same and I'm going to miss them. And so I'm grieving that whole process. But I can't let the fear of letting that go because it is fear underneath that. Right? That was security. That was something that I loved. I can't let that stop me from walking forward into something new where I'm going to meet some of those same great people. And as we all know with relationships and some of these changes, the people in that other career that really are of value will come with me into the new one. And it's not like that door is completely closing. They're still there. To me, that is the difference in the fear. Uh, and I also think we, I need to process it. I don't want to say anything for somebody else, but I need to process the fear and the grief around what I'm leaving behind because that's not easy either.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think grieving, the grieving process too is so different for everybody, but something to definitely look forward to because especially when we have these seasons of businesses that are getting ready to close and we know that something new is coming on the horizon, but maybe we just don't know what it is quite yet. One of the sayings that I'm pretty sure anybody that has ever been on any of the teams that I've ever led, they have heard me say this at least a thousand times. My four children have heard me say this probably a million times in their lifetime. But if you're not growing, you're dying, right? So. And that, uh, that is the same principle that applies to our businesses too, right? If it's not growing, it's dying. But if it's dying, sometimes there really is a God given reason. God's like, hey, this season is starting to come to an end, but I'm gonna, we're gonna go ahead and clear it out, right? But I'm gonna bring fruitfulness. You just, you have to trust me. You have to continue to sow into this and then just watch, right? Just watch. Plant the seed. You got the foundation. Plant the seeds. Let God water it. And it's wild to see how quickly it can shift. All right, so let's talk about the morality of money in your book a little bit. We'll segue into this. Just really talk about the theological and ethical core of your book. So you talk a lot about what you call the big guys, which are institutions and systems that tend to exploit people's financial vulnerability. And I think this is probably controversial and I love it. I'm here for it, right? Again, if we're not causing controversy, I don't know what we're doing.

Speaker A: For a Christian leader who wants to

Speaker B: operate with integrity, one of the warning signs that you're, uh, in a business exchange that isn't mutually beneficial, this one is really tough.

Speaker C: It is really tough because I see so many people who I, from my perspective, m might say, how can you think that's fair? And for people who are just listening and not seeing, I just air quoted bear. We tend to be really good at telling ourselves stories that help us feel better about things. And I'm no different than that. I've been guilty of this. I am right now creating an online course from material from the book. And it's the chapter entitled the Heart of the Matter, where I talk about the college student that goes for income sharing instead of taking out a student loan. And I describe how costly that decision is. And here she is, a, uh, 19 year old, and this institution is essentially, in a way, and I'm going to take away the caveat, this institution is taking advantage of her. And they can come up with a billion reasons for this that we could lose on this deal might be one of the excuses or they're really not paying that much more. It really depends on what they make whatever it is. And I think I've just come up with the answer to the question. Anytime I'm coming up with an alternate story and excuse for what I'm doing, anytime I'm running that story through my head and the hamsters that I've got running to make it sound okay, what I'm doing, chances are what I'm choosing to do is not the thing that God would really want me to do.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's good.

Speaker C: And the ethics class that I'm trying, that I want to write for my other business, about the chapter the Heart of the Matter. The caveat to that is the Golden Rule. Because in every religion of the world, the Golden Rule exists. And Jesus didn't say it as the golden rule said, love God with all your heart and soul and love others as you love yourself. If I really consider what I'm doing in my business, would I want to be treated that way? And really look at that. That one's hard to do. And I'll also say that potentially is why my business isn't doing as well anymore either, because I just don't want to compete in that marketplace of doggy, um, dog. It's hard. It's hard. Most of my industry is. And I'm going to get controversial here. Ruled by men, and it's not an environment I want to get. Um, cutthroat in my business tends to be a little bit more folksy and family.

Speaker B: I love that, though. It's so true, too. Coming from the IT industry. For 25ish years, women made up less than 10% of the tech industry. They still, uh. When I started, women made up roughly 6% of the tech industry. And now it's up to 10.

Speaker C: I totally get it.

Speaker B: The financial industry, it tends to. Same thing, really. Have a lot of industries that make a lot of money that are dominated by men. And here's my thing.

Speaker A: Cool.

Speaker B: So good, right? More power to them. I'm not one of the. What's the word I'm looking for?

Speaker C: I'm one of those people that.

Speaker B: It never offended me when I was the only girl in the room. I was very much used to that, being the only female in the room.

Speaker C: Hey.

Speaker B: And I found my voice when I needed to find my voice, and I was quiet when I needed to be quiet. But I get it. The cutthroat industry. It's actually one of the reasons why I don't particularly care to go back into the tech industry. I'm like, I don't know if this

Speaker C: is what I want.

Speaker B: I know the money's there. Absolutely. The money's there in the tech industry, just like the financial industry, there's a heck of a lot of money there. But I don't feel like God's calling me to that. And this definitely one of those faith. Okay, God, I'm giving this to you. You get to be ahead of this. I believe this is truly where submission comes into play. And for women as generalizing us as women, but women as a whole, a lot of us have a hard time with submission because we've been taught what

Speaker C: submission looks like from a worldly view

Speaker B: versus a godly view. And so the world says submission or just be abused. It's abuse. It's not abuse. It can be abuse with certain situations that are worldly. But, man, when it comes to God, like when it comes to Yahweh, Jehovah, Rapha, Jehovah, Jireh, it is never abusive. Submission is beautiful. It's so crazy how he takes that off of our shoulders. He takes the weight off of our shoulders, the stuff that we were never meant to carry. And then he'll. But again, we have to give it to him. We actually have to say, yeah, okay, yeah, I'm gonna let you take this weight off my shoulders. I don't want it anymore. And just give it to him. It's wild. I love that. Okay. Since we're staying on controversial topics right now, we're too. And I know that I'm probably gonna make some people be like, oh, Jules, are you really talking about this right now? We're talking about it. We're going to talk about the elephant of the room, which is Mr. Dave Ramsey. Now, don't get me wrong. I will preface this. I think Dave Ramsey is a cool dude. I love the financial Peace University that he built. When did he build that?

Speaker A: The 90s?

Speaker B: Was it the 90s?

Speaker C: I, uh, don't know, girlfriend. If you read the book, it's still based on financial stuff from the 90s. So, yes, it was, I think, 92.

Speaker B: Again, the world has shifted, and I'm sure that he has totally shifted his view. So, again, no shade to Dave Ramsey or any of his people that truly believe in his everything. Um, but remember, he's not gone, and so he has not gotten it all right. Your book was originally titled, which just totally got me cracking up when we were having our first initial discussion, what Dave Ramsey Got Wrong. And then he pulled no punches about his approach. And you're not anti Dave Ramsey, but you're anti one Size Fits all. Which I totally agree with you. So what's the core thing that you believe he gets wrong that's actually hurting people?

Speaker C: The number one thing is pay off all your debt before you save. And that is the thing that I drive home in my book and I talk about the fact that he made that choice in fear. He decided that because he had to file bankruptcy because he took on, um, too much debt. And he decided because of that, that debt is bad. And so one of the key principles, if we're just going to talk the financial planning side of all of this that I talk about is debt is a tool. And once we know how to use a tool, we can use that tool to our advantage. And when you're building a house, you need all tools. You can't build a house with a screwdriver. Yeah, you're not going to get too far. If you walk up, uh, to a construction site with one tool or just two, uh, tools, in order to get this thing done, you're going to need the whole tool kit. And what I try to do in my book is to offer what I know about how each of these tools work and how people can fundamentally benefit by it. And it's another area that I bring the big guys into it. Multi billionaires are not liquidating their assets to pay for things. They're borrowing money to do it. And the reason they feel safe in doing that is they have enough assets built up that they don't have to worry about the debt.

Speaker B: That's it right there. I love that.

Speaker C: And whenever we have enough assets to pay off all of our debts and generate enough income, then we just feel safer. It's just a natural byproduct. So that's probably the number one thing that sets my philosophy apart from Dave Ramsey's.

Speaker B: I watch TikTok.

Speaker C: I admit it.

Speaker B: I'm. I do enjoy some TikTok. And I see some of these really great financial advisors. They'll also talk about how the wealthy. I don't want to say rich, but I want to say the wealthy folks that are wealthy, they usually just borrow against their own assets or against their own equity. And so I was doing this little masterclass course thing that cost $17, and I was reading it, and I was like, that actually makes sense. Having debt, uh, isn't bad unless you're irresponsible. And then there's a whole different ballpark there. So you describe the seven GS of great riches in the final chapter and, uh, what. Not what people expect from a financial book. So can you walk us through them? Because I think this reframes how your listeners will actually think about wealth entirely.

Speaker C: They're basically the premise for the next book. It's about looking at wealth through a different lens. One of the GS, and this is probably just commonplace, of course, is gratitude. Looking at things where they are. And I know earlier you asked me about, how do you tell between the two fears? I'll tell you this. I'm usually in the wrong fear. If I'm projecting into the future that something's going to go wrong. If right now, in this moment that I am in, everything is okay. And for everyone that is listening to my voice right now, everything is okay. Because you've got power, you've got a device, you've got WI fi, you've got these things, and everything in this moment is okay. Honestly, the seven GS are the lens that God wanted to show me that wealth is only what we make of it. And I know you were saying this, too. My kids have heard this a million times. But here's one thing that I frequently tell my kids when they're faced with something that's difficult. When I look back on my life, I've probably gotten 20% of the things that I thought I wanted. And for those things, I'm blessed. I got the two kids. I had a great business. I'm financially solvent. Right. Those are all things that I knew I wanted. In that 80% is the magic. In that 80%, I got things I didn't even know that I wanted that were way better than I could have thought of. And in those moments, too, when I'm telling my kids, oh, I'm so fearful for my business, and I'm doing my whammy M. And I don't want to make that a bad thing because I think we need to process all of those feelings.

Speaker B: Yeah, agree.

Speaker C: Um, but my kids will frequently say mom, and I'm going to get choked up. You've done so many amazing things. Think about the things that you've done that other people wish they could do. And anyone who is listening to my voice right now, if you have a tug on your heart that there's something that you. You really want to do, please find a way to do it. Because I so believe that if God puts a passion in our heart, God will make a way.

Speaker A: Period.

Speaker C: End of story. That's all we need to know. If you have a passion in your heart, God will make a way.

Speaker B: I love that. Uh, that is the perfect way to wrap this Up. Bernia, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and your knowledge with us. I'm going to go ahead and make sure to drop the links in the show notes where you can find Renee on social media, on her websites, et cetera. And then Renee, again, I cannot even tell, uh, you how grateful I am for you. The first of all, reaching out and then choosing to be on this podcast with me. So for that, I am very deeply grateful. And for all of our listeners, viewers, thank you so much for joining us today. Cannot wait to see you guys next week.

Speaker A: Okay, so before we close out, I want to pull one thing forward because I think it was one of the most useful sentences in my whole conversation with Renee. Renee said when she catches herself building a story to explain why a decision is fine. Running the hamsters on that hamster wheel, as she put it, that's usually the sign that the decision is not the one God wants her making. I want you to sit with that for a second. Not, does this feel wrong or is this technically allowed?

Speaker B: Really?

Speaker A: Just, am I working this hard to justify it and why? That is a test that you can run today on a hire, on a pricing structure, on a contract, maybe a conversation you've been avoiding and it costs you nothing. The other sentence in line that I keep coming back to is when Renee talked about fear, she said she knows she's in the wrong kind of fear when she's projecting forward into something going wrong. While right now, in this moment, everything is actually okay. Most of what us leaders are afraid of, guys, it hasn't happened yet. And a lot of the times it never will either. So everything is in the show notes. I've got everything where you can find Renee. The morality of money is linked in there as well. And she does have her first 30 pages on there for free on her site. So if you want to have a little read and see if this is something you want to invest in, I highly, highly suggest you give it a try.

Speaker B: It's actually a really great read.

Speaker A: I finished it in about a day and a half. And one more thing I think a lot of you guys are going to actually want is Renee has built a Money in Faith study designed for book clubs and churches. So if you lead a small group or maybe a women's ministry, or if you're on staff somewhere and you've been looking for something that goes past standard stewardship curriculum, that link is in the show notes as well. And I do want to make sure I note this. Renee is a financial educator. She is not Your financial advisor. Neither am I. I am not your financial advisor. This is a conversation that is a testimony and education combined. So my advice is take it to somebody who knows your actual numbers before you make any moves. Okay? This is from me to you, my friend. Okay. I'm so excited about this one. Today is the day that the Leadership Clearly Foundations course has officially launched.

Speaker B: It's official.

Speaker A: It's not on pre order anymore. The link is in the show notes. Quick brief overview. Five days, that's it. One short lesson. Prepare yourself for about an hour a day. So figure five hours for the whole week. Start on Monday and by Friday you are holding a one page communication plan that you can lead from for years to come. And here is why it belongs at the end of this particular conversation between Renee and myself. Renee spent the whole episode talking about the cost of not being honest with yourself. The stories we build, the fear that we call wisdom. Leadership communication runs on the exact same fuel. Essentially, most leaders are not unclear because they lack information. They're unclear because they're managing how they'll be received. And it comes out as a message that nobody can act on. So go check out the link. It's in the show notes as well. And I'm so excited. Please DM me if you have any questions. You can find me on Instagram. Now, if this show has been good to you, my humble request is to ask for a review on Apple, Spotify or YouTube or wherever you're listening to the podcast as well. It takes usually 30 seconds and it's genuinely how other leaders can help find us. And then also please share if you know a leader that needs to hear the conversation as well. And last but not least, Renee, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. You were so honest about a season that you're still in, not one you've already survived and packaged. Right? And I think that's a lot harder to do on the microphone when you're walking through it. So thank you for being here and thank you for being here with me today, especially those of you watching this one, because again, our very first video episode and of course for all of our listeners, Goie, clearly I will see you next week.