Don’t Answer Their Question, Solve Their Problem

I was a student of the craft, and I still believe being a student of the craft is the best way to be successful in our industry. You have to want it. You have to be curious, professionally curious every day. But I also think that we have to recognize that what took us three hours, four hours before can happen in moments.

Welcome to the Leaders Edge podcast. This is Audra Jackson, vice president of government affairs for the Council of Insurance Agents and Brokers. You're about to hear a very dynamic conversation recorded at the Employee Benefits Leadership Forum between Lisa Hawker, who's our outgoing CB chair and the regional COO for People Solutions at Lockton, along with Kerry Finnegan, who's a past CB chair. Listen to this very dynamic and thoughtful conversation about employee benefits and where the market is.

Hey, Lisa, I am so glad to be in the position to do this because I've been a fan of yours for all the years that we've been working together at CB. And so I get to have some fun and some questions I want to ask you. You've gotten some very well-deserved kudos today on all the contributions you've made, including to Council PAC, which I especially want to point out. But and I guess the first question I have of you is as you hand things off to Ken, Ken Olson, our new chair, what pressing things did you tell him that he will graciously take as advice?

Well, OK, first, thanks for your kind words. And the feeling is mutual. I've had that opportunity to grow up through this industry watching you and the and the contributions you've made not only to the council, but to our industry in general. So sitting here with you today is truly a joy and a real privilege for me.

You know, thinking about what you sort of tell the next person, it's a little bit taking that legacy of what you've learned as you've been through the time. First of all, Ken is an incredible leader. Ken is much more technical than I am. So Ken comes with an arsenal that, candidly, I don't think I had.

So, you know, what do you give in terms of advice to someone who really comes in just so polished and so knowledgeable? I think, you know, my thing for Ken is soak it up. I think that's probably one of the things that I'm not sure that I really recognize really until the past probably couple of meetings where you start to know that you're coming out. So if I think about the importance, though, of that CB chair role and what I would say to him is that CB is incredibly unique in our industry.

What we're able to do as these employee benefits executives in this role as broker consultants or our clients, it's really to kind of understand that it's an intersection, right? We come in with what we see in the market every single day, what we're seeing clients struggle with, what we see their wishes, desires are, what they're dealing with with their people, and then come into an organization like the council and with CB to see, you know, how does that translate into the broader industry direction?

What does that mean from a policy perspective? So it's bringing together the reality of it and then the government side of it and trying to mesh that together. I think that is incredibly unique. And we have a really important responsibility to make sure that we're bringing forward those insights.

Having such a diverse group of professionals as part of that group, I think we take something from it every day and we take it back to our firm. So it's like you get what you give. And I think for Ken, he has been such a giver this entire time he's been involved with CB. Again, you look at what it gives you, the joy it brings you, the professional insights it gives you, and it comes from, Carrie, people like you, people like Ken, individuals that have given their time, talent, their treasure to an organization like the council.

My advice for him is to enjoy the ride. Kind of continuing on that theme, client expectations in light of new threats, in light of all kinds of affordability topics, et cetera. How have client expectations changed or have they Yeah you know I think it important to think about because I not sure that they changed significantly What I would tell you is that they migrated a little bit Clients always cared about us supporting them managing costs. How do we translate this very complicated world of health insurance to their employee population?

How do we demonstrate value? I don't think the themes have changed. I think the complexity has changed. So I think their expectations are this elevation, which I think our industry has brought.

We've evolved as the complexity has changed. And so I think from our perspective, it's not about providing just giving an answer. I always tell people throughout my career, don't answer their question, solve their problem. And so if our first question with our client isn't around the why, like, what are you trying to solve for?

And we just answer that, you know, everyday question. We kind of leave them with less than they deserve. improve. I also think that we've got to catch up to that full advisory mindset, not the broker mindset.

I mean, there was a time when I started in this industry, which is almost 30 years ago now, where it was so transactional. Like it was about, I could go out, I could go to three or four markets, I could get you a great deal. You know, I was, I remember under $100 per month, single rates, like unheard of, right? So that transaction is still an important part of it.

But I think that truly embracing the advisory nature of it, truly understanding the importance of data and not just data for data's sake, but data for the insights that we can glean and the advice that we can give them, because they still have to connect the dots between the dollars they're spending and the value it's providing. So has it changed? I don't think the thematic component has changed, but their expectations have elevated. And I love that, you know, generally speaking, I've seen our industry elevate to meet them.

In light of that complexity, Lisa, how do members think about talent in terms of attracting that talent, retaining it, training it? Because that complexity has gotten really complex. It has. And I would tell you that talent is what we have, right?

We sell an idea. We sell advice. We sell counsel. We don't sell a product.

There's a product that goes along with it. But the beauty of being a broker consultant is that the world is our oyster. I don't sell a widget. I have access to everything.

And so I think we've got to have our talent understanding that as the industry continues to evolve, it provides new opportunity. In the old day, you were, I use the phrase a lot, chief cook and bottle washer, right? I knew enough about compliance. I knew enough about pharmacy.

I knew enough about pop health or wellness, as we used to call it. I knew enough about that that I could come in and sort of bring the client along. But as technology has evolved, as claims have continued to rise, as all those things, as even the payment structures and how the industry works has changed, our need has changed. And so there are two components of that, right?

So we have to look for talent that can do one of two things or multiple things. One that can still be the generalist and pull things together more like a project manager. And we can look for that talent that can get really deep and really specialized. So I think it provides a lot of opportunity, but it also is changing.

So you think about technology, you think about AI. It's changing the way we train, the way we develop people. this whole idea that I can know everything is gone. And I don't, you know, people say this a lot.

Like, I don't think that AI will replace people. People who don't use AI and leverage AI will be replaced by people who do. And so I think we've got to think about that when we bring them in And we have to be able to recognize as like I going to call it like as an old dog in the industry Like I was a student of the craft and I still believe being a student of the craft is the best way to be successful in our industry. You have to want it.

You have to be curious, professionally curious every day. But I also think that we have to recognize that what took us three hours, four hours before can happen in moments. So getting past the, the rote task and getting them to thinking and making them better technicians for using technology, artificial intelligence, those things versus trying to replace it. I think that's really where we go and giving them early at-bats.

And what I mean by that is I remember growing up, you were carrying somebody's bag, right? You were walking behind them, the smartest person in the room, just listening. We've got to give people some latitude to make some mistakes, not mistakes that are going to be completely detrimental to our clients or to themselves, but we've got to get them in there early. We have to have them thinking about getting that opportunity to understand the why.

I have a young person that works for me. She interned for us and now she's working for me on a part-time basis as she's finishing college. Every time we talk about it, I'll go through a project with her. She's taking notes and she'll throw it into AI.

And so she'll come back to me and we'll talk. And I'm like, so why am I asking this? And she'll give me this like high pie in the sky answer at some point, like to run the business. I'm like, okay, no, no, no.

Let's get a little deeper. But watching the light bulb go off. So I think those are the things that we've got to think about. We are a talent industry.

That's what we've got to sell. And we've got to make sure that we're continuing to bring folks along as this industry continues to grow and evolve. You may have answered this in part already with the response here over the last couple of questions, but I've been thinking about plan sponsors and their commitment to providing benefits at all. You mentioned the complexity.

There's new fiduciary risks that seem to arise almost every day, even though they were always subject to those risks. They just seem more obvious. What do members have to deliver truly for plan sponsors to know they're doing the right thing with their benefit program? Yeah, so I would say that plan sponsors responsibility as the costs have grown up, as the industry has shifted a little bit, that responsibility as a fiduciary is so top of mind now, whether it's from a legal perspective, from a cost perspective.

And so I think our members have to put their plan sponsor hat on, even though they're not the plan sponsor. They have to think about it in the same respect. No, brokers consultants aren't fiduciaries, but they've got to think about what their clients are thinking. I think they always have.

But before, I think it was much more about a value conversation. Now, I think it's really very heavily a financial conversation. And for a long time, our main constituency was HR. Finance really stayed out of it.

The cost curve and the fiduciary component of that has shifted that. And this intersection between human capital risk and their business risk is now really kind of intersected. And so our ability to help paint that picture, the value proposition of providing benefits, coupled with the fiduciary responsibility of providing benefits, is an intersection that we have to make sure we're bridging that gap for them as well. Yeah.

Very good. Lisa, now maybe about you. Most enjoyable thing in your entire experience with CB? If you only pick one, but you can pick as many as you like.

Yeah. I said it yesterday when we were kind of ending and I was turning the gavel over. I have met the smartest people of my life being part of CB and interacting with the council and meeting members from other firms. I forged some of the longest term friendships that I had I been involved in the organization for 18 years I think I I don know how many years now I been involved with CB but every single one of those people they've made me better.

They've made me think deeper. They are truly not just people I see once or twice a year. They are people that I've sat on study groups with, become friends with, now vacationed with. And what I love about our organization and what I love about being part of CB is when we're in that room together, we are thinking for our industry.

Now we're going to leave tomorrow and we're going to be vehement competitors again. Like I'm going to try and beat so-and-so. I want us to compete in the market. I want to, you know, win.

But when we come together, we are a group of colleagues that think about our industry and love our industry for the purpose of our clients and creating that value and demonstrating. So it's that interesting kind of push-pull, right? And we saw that yesterday in some really incredible, robust conversation. Got a little weird, candidly, at times.

Like, you know, Scott's sending out a question. I'm like looking around the room going, no one is going to answer this. But when you really dig down, I've just been so blessed doing that. And the ability to bring that back to my firm and the ability to pass that along and to mentor and take those just nuggets.

I mean, there are such nuggets that I have gained over my time and to impart that back and represent my firm in a, in a, hopefully a very positive light for our industry. But also again, you get, you get out of it, what you put into it. And I've, I like to believe I've, I've poured my blood, sweat and tears into it. And for that reason, I walk, you know, I walk away from this chair roll and I don't walk away from CB and I don't walk away from the council, but I walk away from this chair roll.

and what I know that I will have, you know, 30 years in the industry. And when I retire, like I will have this group of people that means so much to me. I'll give a few examples. My study group, I talk about it all the time.

We were the OG study group. I actually was the kid that like toddled around after him for a while until they let me in. They hazed me a little bit. Thank you, Chris Nato.

But that group of people, we have a text group every day. There's something. We're celebrating something in the industry. We're celebrating our children, our families.

We're also lamenting the things that aren't great. And we had the opportunity as a group to go when one of our industry greats that many will remember, Tim Byrne from M3, retired. And our whole group got to travel to Madison and watch a man who was a giant in the industry retire. When you have that at the end of your career, you know that you have not only made a mark, but a mark's been made on your heart.

And that brings me joy every day. That's terrific. So is that the legacy? Yeah.

I mean, I guess so. I'm a mom first. And what I want is my kids to see that I've poured myself into something. I want the people that I work with to know that I care about them, not just as professionals, but as people.

And that not only is the people in my organization, but anyone that I've ever had an opportunity to mentor, anyone that's mentored me and all of the friends that I've made through it. So if there's a legacy, I hope it's that I gave a damn. Lisa, terrific. I certainly feel that.

and all the comments that have been made this week. And they won't stop. And I really appreciate your spending time as a council today for this visit. Thanks, Gary.

Such a pleasure. Appreciate you. I hope you enjoyed this podcast between Lisa Harker, who's our outgoing CB chair and regional CEO for People Solutions at Lockton, and Kerry Finnegan, who's a past CB chair and senior advisor to CB. For more information about Leaders Edge, please go to leadersedge.

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