When Clients Would Rather Feel More Financially Successful Than Take Action To BE More Successful: Kitces & Carl Ep 193

Speaker A: It turns out what we're asking people to do is hard. Yeah, it's easier to read another book about how to make investment decisions than it is to actually have a hard conversation with a family member. Because it's part of your financial plan. We're asking people to do hard things.

Speaker B: One draws with a Sharpie, the other nerds out with spreadsheets. But both share a passion for helping real financial advisors get better. Join the industry's preeminent blogger, Michael Kitces, and client communication expert Carl Richards, as they share their unique perspectives and advice on how to more effectively serve your clients. Be more intentional when building your own business and make sure you actually have a life in the process. Without further ado, here are, ah, your hosts, Kitces and Carl.

Speaker C: Well, greetings, Carl.

Speaker A: Hello, Michael. How are you?

Speaker C: I'm doing well. I'm um, enjoying the spring season. The season is turning. We're, we're May here, June. By the time everybody is listening to this, almost summer, depending on where you are. Yeah.

Speaker A: So good. Yeah, it's such a. I was out on a hike the other morning and thought, I love being in the mountains. I remembered, oh, it's 55 degrees and not, uh, snowing. You know, like, I love snow, but it's so, it's, it's so. This time of year is so great.

Speaker C: I was going to say, is there a problem being in Utah when it's not snowing?

Speaker A: Well, that's little secret. We don't want anybody to know. People often come. They, they come to ski and they come for one summer and that's when they move here. Like you, you, you, you come for one summer and that's the hook. So don't, it's terrible. Don't come during the summer.

Speaker C: Okay. Okay, Understood.

Speaker A: For sure.

Speaker C: For sure.

Speaker A: Yeah. What's happening?

Speaker C: Well, would you like to delve into today?

Speaker A: You know, there's. Yeah. Funny you should ask.

Speaker C: In this random zoom room we found ourselves in together to do this recording.

Speaker A: Right. There's this, there's this phenomenon that I've been, okay, trying to like get my arms around for a long time and I ran across the quote a couple of months ago and it was, and I wish I could attribute it was on some essay about uh, AI tools as I recall.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: And it was just a, you know, almost like a throw away line in the essay that, that is the only thing I can remember from the essay now, which is here's the quote. The market. Well, let me, let me start by saying this.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: Uh, this, my first thinking around this started a long time ago when I, when somebody said to me were. And it was this, this was I think Luke Burgess in his book wanting. We had him on as a guest.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: The Society of Advice. Talking about that book. And I, I think that's where I first heard someone say we're often far more interested. We, us humans are often far more interested in being seen as something than actually being the thing. Like you did put in a lot of words here. Like one of my favorites is we're often more interested in being seen as creative than actually being creative. Actually being creative is really kind of scary and hard work.

Speaker C: I was gonna say. I mean that, that's just a big, you know, I don't know. Being seen as creative is cool and hip, at least in some circles. Actually being creative is just a giant ball of failure risk while everybody judges your creative quality. That, that seems kind of awful. Unless you're like really possessed by the muse or something.

Speaker A: That's exactly, that's exactly right. Like, yeah, being seen as, you could use contrarian being seen as concerning actually being being seen as productive as being seen as somebody who deadlifts than actually being somebody who deadlifts. Like there's like you could play around with lots of words in there. So I've started thinking about that. I uh, think that must have been three or four years ago. And, and then this, I read this line that the market, the market for feeling. And we're just going to use what the line said, productive. I think you could swap this out. Created the market for feeling productive is orders of magnitude larger than the market for being productive. So now, now we got like, like assume that's true. And I think it would be fun for us to talk about like is that true? How have we seen it show up? But now we've got three layers to this game. Like feeling. Stick with productive for a little bit. Feeling productive to our earlier statement, being seen as productive.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: And then actually being productive. And so I've been thinking a lot about like, like not uh, definitely for myself. Like I, I, as you know this, my work is mainly an adventure journal, not a self help book. And so I'm almost always viewing these through like how does it apply to me? But then I've seen this, I've been seeing this, this set of lenses is, has like shaded everything I'm doing with consulting and coaching clients. And then I'm seeing it from an advisor's eyes towards their clients. So like the question becomes like, how does, what are the implications of this idea for ourselves and for our work with clients. And what are the, what are some of the. Like, how does it actually apply? How, where does it show up? Like implications. Applications are very interesting in this idea. So I'll just pause there. That's a lot to throw at you. But what, what sort of surface. As I say that the market for feeling productive is orders of magnitude larger than the market for being productive.

Speaker C: I mean my, my gut response, uh, actually goes back to your, like your other comparable category earlier with, with creative. Like putting creative in the word instead of productive. Right. Lot. You know, it's easier to be, you know, it's easier to try to be seen as creative than to actually take all the risks and challenges of being a creative laden with, you know, people judging your work and potential for failure and all the stuff that goes with that. Um, uh, that if. I mean it feels like a m. Very much a mirror when you put in the word productive. Read the, you know, feeling productive. I guess now maybe you'll have to parse it further. So I guess like be feeling and being seen as productive seems like the new hip thing or has been. Right. It's like it's busyness. You know, the, the more busy you are, the more productive you are. Like I work 60 hours a week. I work 70 hours a week. I work 82 hours a week because I wake up at 5:15am and I've done more by 7:15am than most humans do in their life. Right. And like we have all these uh, articles out there of like peak productivity that are usually things that people do hours before I ever wake up.

Speaker A: Uh, uh, well, just don't, don't lose your thought because like yeah, the, the books, you know, the second brain.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: The apps, the tools, the like. Yeah. There's a whole bunch of the market for tools to feel or be seen as is pretty high. Instagram's a great place to be seen as productive.

Speaker C: Yeah. Versus, well, actually really being productive is hard work. Like uh, systematically, like you know, pushing yourself into the things that you can do that will actually advance your career or move the needle or do whatever it takes to like really, really quote, do the things that grow and accelerate you forward. They're hard things. They're really hard things. Uh, I feel like some of that is just the industry's traditional, uh, uh, if the business was easy, everyone will be doing it. I mean there was a version of this back in the cold calling days, starting out in the insurance world. But the hard workers who are real success are the Ones who are willing to do what no one else is willing to do. That's why you should be willing to do another 170 dials today before you leave. But it was built, it was built around that same principle. Um, and to me just a crops up overload place. The Napoleon, um, Hill's Think and Grow Rich is all about figuring out in your head like the, the few things that will move you forward for your like single minded focus goal towards the big idea, uh, that you have, that you want to drive for towards Jim Collins's big hairy audacious goal is a version of that. Now like Ben Hardy's Science is scaling book also has a version of that. They're all like, how do you, how do you get focused on the few things that really, really matter and put all of your energy into those? Because that's what really moves the needle on your career, uh, outcomes or your business outcomes or your personal financial goals and objectives, whatever they are. And to me, what almost all those books come back to is this is a thing that almost no one does because it's actually really. Because it's really freaking hard. Right. Be busy to seem productive. Pretty straightforward. Do the actual really hard things that feel strange and risky to create focus and move the needle. Like that's scary stuff and most of us don't actually want to do it.

Speaker A: Yeah. When, um, okay, so let's just again, just being, feeling something, being seen as something and actually being the thing. And we can stick with productive. But just to be clear to everybody, like you could really. I've played around with all sorts of words in here. Um, my sense is that this is true. At least my experience has been. And I think this applies to advisors and their clients equally because those, it turns out, whether we're talking about advisors or clients, we're just talking about a human trait. The market for the demand for. Right. The willingness for people, the number of people. Another way of saying this, the number of people who will pay you for the opportunity for them. They will pay for the opportunity to feel productive, feel like they're making successful changes with their money or even being seen as doing that. There's a lot more people that will pay for that than the people. Oh, you know what's interesting about this Michael, is there's this great Jason's wagon. I think it. I, uh, I can't remember who told him this. I mean he's. It won't take long for we've got the best. Uh, it's not fact checker but resource finder in the world on this podcast. She does such a good job. Who does it?

Speaker C: Are you making a reference to me or you mean our team?

Speaker A: You're the team that does the checking on this podcast.

Speaker C: Oh, for our team. Uh, Sydney Squires.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: So good.

Speaker C: Hunts down and makes sure all the things get cited and referenced and linked out to properly.

Speaker A: Okay, so I'm going to. Just. Just in case we want to edit. So what's interesting is Jason Zweig said something super interesting, and I'm sure Sydney will be able to track down the exact attribution, but it's. Here's the.

Speaker C: I link in show notes here.

Speaker A: Here's the quote. Here's the quote. Um, you can. You can. There are three ways to approach this. This thing of giving advice. You can sell to people. You can write to people who. You can tell the truth to people who want to be told the truth, and you'll make a living. Okay, you can tell the truth. Sorry, here we go. You can tell the truth to people who want to be told the truth, and you'll make a living. You can lie to people who want to be lied to, and you'll make a fortune. You can tell the truth to people who want to be lied to, and you'll go broke. And I think it's. There's, like, some interplay between these whole examples of, like, okay, if you try. If people just want. If part of what somebody wants is just to feel a little bit more productive, like, feel a little bit more organized around their money, feel a little bit better about the decision they're making. Like, sometimes I used to get really frustrated that I was like, what do you. In fact, I had a friend who actually asked me that. He's like, what are you, a circus clown just up there juggling for people? Like, this is just theater. You just want to make people feel something. And I sometimes get really frustrated. Like, no, I only want people who actually do the thing. But it turns out these things are really hard to get. Where does the line between feeling something, being seen as something, and being something, change? And is it our jobs as advisors, necessarily, to always make sure that people are doing the thing? Or does. Does them feeling a little bit productive, maybe even being seen as productive with their friends, lead to a greater likelihood that they'll actually do the thing? You know, like, those are the kind of questions that I bounce, uh, that bounce around in my head about this. This is the kind of thing I spend two hours a day up in the mountains thinking about.

Speaker C: I Didn't even thought about this from the client context. I mean, uh, so then the implication is, you know, on, are you, are you trying to give advice as though all of your clients want to be more financially successful when in truth some of them just want to feel more financially successful or be seen as trying to be more financially successful but aren't actually ready to do and do the changes it takes. I mean, here again like another version of it's, it's, it's easier to feel like you're doing something or be seen than to actually like do the thing. Be the being state is the hard one here.

Speaker A: Exactly. Uh, that's exactly right. Like, and yeah, don't let's get back to that client thing because that's really, really interesting question. Is that, is that what we're doing here? Because remember, feeling and being seen as the interesting thing about feeling and being seen as number one and number two versus actually being the thing is you get almost all the benefit as you pointed out, like feeling creative, being seen as creative, that's actually kind of fun, you know, like it's cool. You can get all, you can get almost, almost big asterisk by almost, almost all the benefit by doing number one and number two without any of the risk. Because the moment you go be creative in the world, you got a giant pile of very intimate risk. And so that's why I think the market for these things, why I think this is actually true, is we can feel like I'm really good at time management by just reading David Allen's Getting Things Done book. I can feel that way. Mhm. I could maybe even buy a little booklet or something, a bullet journal. And I could let my family see it and uh, I'd even be seen that way. But actually doing it David Allen's process every day, Are you kidding me? That turns out if I try that, there's a chance I'll fail one day. Actually there's a high like you will for sure, you know, miss a day here and there and you're gonna have to deal with that. So it's, it's super interesting why this statement is probably true. And then how does it apply? How do we protect ourselves from feeling or being seen as, as a place to hide versus doing the work. And then how do we work with this with clients?

Speaker C: I guess the, I know, I, I, I come to it a little bit from the, from the, maybe the opposite end.

Speaker A: Shocker.

Speaker C: Uh, well, so look, my, my head first went to a version of what you just said, right? The if you're, I don't know if you're, if you're uh, if you're productivity obsessed with. Then the people who feel productive and try to be seen as productive but aren't actually being productive are hiding.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker C: We have all sorts of labels for it now. You know, you're, you're, you're. You're playing office. You're m. As. As Matthew Jarvis puts it. You're, you're um, you know, you're allowing yourself to be distracted. You're doing the work that doesn't really move the, move the needle have the impact like as, as though it's sort of as. As though it's wrong. Right. I mean the, I think the word used like it's, it's hiding behavior.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: Sort of the implication like you're not doing the thing you're supposed to. So we're gonna like slightly slap you on the wrist for that, for that hiding behavior and then try to encourage you back the other direction. And I, I guess part of what strikes me it's just uh, when the norm is not doing the thing and the weird strange exception are the few people that do the thing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Maybe not doing the thing actually really is normal.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And, yeah. And, and, and the hard thing is hard. Right? Yeah. I mean what, what, what if you're not hiding because you haven't taken the giant productivity leap or you change all your systems and blow everything up? What if you're ah, a normal human being and a few like weird freaks manage to do whatever the, the other thing is where you do all the things in, in, in David Allen's book, every day, 365 days a year, successfully. Hey, kudos to you. Apparently you're wired differently than I am.

Speaker A: I think that's exactly right.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: I think that's the reason that quote is actually holds up to scrutiny. The market for it is orders of magnitude larger because it's actually normal. Like it's, it's probably a bit normal for us to hide. It's probably a bit normal for us to just want to feel a certain way. Um, maybe even be seen as a certain way. It shields us. I was thinking about this. I've just got some notes here that sometimes I call this productivity theater. Productivity theater is the avoidance of creative vulnerability. But it often shows up disguised as discipline. You know, and so I think with, with clients. So let me. Here's an interesting story. I, Again I. This has been a very, very long term thread I've been thinking about. My friend Jeremy was the One that said to me, because I was telling you about speaking engagements, I was like, yeah, I go do these speaking engagements. I said, I. I really enjoy them. The feedback I get is that they're impactful. And he said, do you think anybody actually changes because of that? And I was like, I. I don't know, but probably very few, because it's just. That's like, you know, I. I know for me, I've attended lots of really impactful keynotes or workshops, and I've implemented very little of what. But I've. It still had an impact in my life. And I was telling this. He's like. He got kind of straight up with me. He was the one that said, what are you, a circus clown? Just up there juggling on stage, like, entertaining people. So that's. That's Jeremy on one spectrum. Then I had this experience.

Speaker C: Well, if most of us want to feel and be seen as going to a Carl Richards session counts, and that feels good. So thank you, Carl.

Speaker A: Yeah. Well, that's very nice of you, and I hope that's true. And. And I. But I was feeling a lot of angst because of the way Jeremy came after me for it. And then I was. When I was part of the 50 Fires project, I went to Magnolia to meet with Chip and Joanna Gaines. Uh, and if you've been to Magnolia, to Waco, to the, like, the Silos, like, it's this whole thing. I had no idea that this place existed. I didn't even know what really was.

Speaker C: What is it for? Just for people aren't familiar. And.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's like, uh, like where it's. They. They basically took over a huge piece of the town of Waco and built this giant compound where they've got, like, their production office. Their office. They've got, um, you know, a big place to have concerts. It's like a little park. They've got the side. They're built in the great old grain silos, right? They've got these. It's called the Silos.

Speaker C: Okay.

Speaker A: A really beautiful coffee shop. Chip's got a store where they sell, like, the Yeti coolers and the. You know, and then there's also this store where they sell. And this is my point. I went there and there's people everywhere. Like, I was just like, what. I felt like I had walked in, you know what I mean? Uh, my wife knew about it, and I had friends that knew about it. I just had never. So I go there. I'm like, what's going on? Like, I go in the Coffee shop. And it's, you know, it's it. And then I went over to this, to the big store. So they have like a big store and it's got all of the, you know, maybe like the, the, the the. And a lot of kitchen stuff. And I saw you know, the cookbooks

Speaker C: and

Speaker A: kitchen set up and how to set a table and how to entertain. And I saw people buying like dishes and so. And I literally sat there for a few minutes over in the corner and just watched people buying things. And I thought these people. There's going to be. I bet almost everyone who goes here, who buys something is going to go home and like it could be one of Joanna's favorite candles. They're going to put this candle someplace that they're going to, they're going to occasionally light that. There are people here who are going to set a table and have a dinner in a slightly different way for their family because they had this experience. Big or small. They're going to do something slightly different because they've had this experience. Are Chip and Joanna circus clowns. You're like, they're on tv. It's the definition of entertainment. Mhm. So that, that was like the other anchor of this thought was like Jeremy saying, what are you a circus clown? And then the experience at Magnolia thinking, wait, if just. If somebody just goes home and welcomes their family to dinner slightly different because of the experience, that's massive change. You know, like and, and maybe it's small change at a. Sometimes, uh, I think about this as like an inch deep but a, a million miles wide. Or sometimes our work is an inch wide and a million miles deep. And uh, I think it's interesting to think about that, that like maybe getting somebody to feel something, maybe that's actually the highest calling an advisor could have. And then if they feel that thing frequently, maybe they'll go home and make a subtle little change and maybe that'll lead to more subtle little changes. And we all know everything that we do are just subtle, uh, little changes compounded over time. So I've learned to kind of like not say either or, but realize that they're. Yes. Ands. Uh, tell me what you think about that.

Speaker C: I, I mean I can again, I can see the pairing look from the what. So it's, it's an interesting juxtaposition. Right. In a world like the gains who are entertaining one to many. Right. There's some phenomenon of. I know if I, if I entertain a thousand and one of them makes a meaningful change, then I Had an impact. Like I did something, I accomplished something. I mean look, you can't change all the people's minds the time. Yeah, uh, we put up, if we put something out in the world and a few people got meaningfully impacted, it's really hard to get people to change. So that's a really powerful, meaningful thing. What a wonderful success. And then there's this crazy thing we do called financial planning where we sit down with every single client, one darn client at a time and we don't, we don't get judged in the realm of. Well you know, I did financial planning sessions for my hundred, 100 of my clients, like three of them implemented my recommendations. Isn't that right? Like the bar is really high. We're, we're supposed to get every client to implement our recommendations. Every single one is supposed to not just like feel or be seen as, but actually be the, be the change that we're recommending. So it's, I don't know, strikes me the bar feel like uh, by like this model and framework, the bar feels very high in the work that we're supposed to do with clients when most of us are still good old fashioned humans. And this stuff's actually ridiculously hard for us to make change and do these things ourselves.

Speaker A: Yeah. And look, I ah, love that. Yeah. And I want to be clear like this. To me the interesting thing about these kind of discussions is not that there's an answer, it's just like an interesting framework and it's an interesting question. But I like the idea though of um, um, I mean if you start, if you like, does this change the way you see advice adherence problems? You know, like if you start to finally like oh maybe that's why like you'll see in an ideal client profile like I want ideal clients who take my advice and implement it, you know, like.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I know a lot of advisors that have literally written that in like part of ideal client definition is, you know, takes my advice and implements it of course because it's frustrating to see them not the other.

Speaker A: And yeah, and the number of conversations I've had with advice, this has actually really been helpful for me. I feel like if anybody wants to send me a bill for the therapy, please send it. Um, because it's interesting because when they don't implement it, you wonder what they're paying for. You wonder if you're providing any value and I wonder if there's an edge there where you can be like yeah, I'm actually am providing a little value. They feel a little bit better about themselves. They're making some progress. Maybe the measurement of the progress is a little bit lower. Because if it's true that most people. It turns out what we're asking people to do is hard.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: It's easier to read another book about how to make investment decisions. It's easier to listen to another. It's easier to watch another hour of the financial pornography network on TV than it is to actually decide that you're going to spend a little bit less or you're going to prioritize a goal or you're going to have a hard conversation with a family member because it's part of your financial plan. We're asking people to do hard things.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: So, uh, I think that's interesting. Does that mean we should take on a bunch of people who don't actually ever do anything? No, that would be a really frustrating business. But it just. I think it's helpful to understand, like, the reason that's on your ideal client profile is probably because this is hard for humans. Most humans are more interested in just feeling it.

Speaker C: I. I think it's an interesting question to raise. Like, you know, why I said why? Why? Why do my clients keep. Why do I have that subset of clients who keep paying me the fee and then basically don. Implement any of the things that I recommend that to me, there is some interesting essence here of. Because maybe their goal wasn't the being level, it was the being seen as or feeling level further downstream. And maybe that's all they wanted right now. And maybe I'm scratching that successfully for them. Right. I mean, I mean, as I. As I reflect back on versions of this, you know, there are. There are certainly a few clients I can think of over the years where, uh, I know be being seen as trying to get our finances in order with my spouse was more important than actually getting my finances in order. Right. They. They weren't there to fix their stuff. They were there to show their spouse they were trying.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker C: Like a version of Being seen as.

Speaker A: Yeah. The Jeremy spectrum of this would be like, what are you, a joke? Like, come on. And just the Magnolia spectrum of this. Like, if we're going to label them, those would be like, hey, maybe that's enough. Like, maybe that's a really, like, for right now, for this particular moment, for this particular person, maybe the best thing you can do is just be like, bro, you're doing great.

Speaker C: Yeah, like.

Speaker A: Like, you're doing great. Keep it up. Like, and. And. And. You know what I mean? Like, and the other thing to keep in mind is it's not like all clients in every single area of their financial lives are, ah, one or the other. Right. There could be goals that are like. And there could be other things. Gosh, I've just been postponing that. I, I don't really want to do that right now. So it's in. That's super interesting to me, which, which

Speaker C: I guess gets back to some things that like Dr. Megan Lurtz and others have put out there that comes over from the. The psychology and therapy realm. Right. There's often a question to the effect of, uh, is this something you actually want to take action on, that you're ready to take action on? And sometimes clients say no. Like, I appreciate the advice. I'm taking it all in. I'm not actually ready to do anything with it, but, you know, I'm taking it in. And maybe you're moving the needle for me a little bit. But the mere fact that you said, here's what I recommend, does not mean today's the day I was actually ready to act on that advice.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, that's a great question. Do you hear her using sometimes the. Like, on a scale of 1 to 10, how likely are you to, like, is that. Is that another place where this shows up?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Scaling questions like that, I think also, also work here, uh, with the recognition that you being the creative, being productive, being the actual financially confident and successful person that maybe I have not been as a client up to this point in my life. Like, these are, um, these are things that are so hard that a lot of us take action never or infrequently, and takes a lot of build up to get to the point where we're ready to take the action that makes a big change in our lives. Because change is really hard. And so maybe it's okay and normal that not all clients are there yet. And the fact that they reached out and asked us for advice and engaged us is not actually a concrete indicator that they're ready yet.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, I. All I really want to say is amen. It just makes me. This is super. It's super interesting to me because it could just be.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: That feels to me like part of the craft of advice is like recognizing the difference between, like, oh, are we here to, you know, what can I. What can I do to be most helpful here? Right. Like, like, uh, you just want to be heard on this frustration.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Oh, I actually want to change this. Frustrate. What, you know, you said you were like, a five. What would have to happen in order for you to be a 7 in terms of taking action? Or why is. Why wasn't it a three? Like, it's a very. I just think this job is so awesome. And I think understanding this job being the financial advisor's job, because it just gives. All we're talking about here is like, who else gets to get into that level of almost like spiritual practice with someone in terms of getting you closer to the person you say you want to be?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. And just I think what you've really demonstrated for me today is that, like, there's a level of empathy there with just like, hey, this is hard. Turns out it's. You know what, the reason you feel that way is because that's normal. That's how a normal human feels.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Welcome to the club. What do you want to do about it? What do you want to do about it? You know, like, super interesting. Thanks, Michael.

Speaker C: Awesome. Thank you, Carl.

Speaker A: Cheers.

Speaker B: Want more from the guys with a Sharpie and a spreadsheet? Subscribe to the podcast on your favorite app so you don't miss a minute. And if you're interested in going even deeper, be sure to check out Carl richards@, ah, realfinancialadvisors.com and stay on top of the issues that matter most to the financial planning industry by visiting Michael kitces@kitces.com. thanks for joining us on Kitces and Carl, and we'll see you in our next episode.