KL152: Work-Life Balance

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Speaker C: Hello everyone. Welcome to another edition of Keep Leading Live. Keep Leading Live is dedicated to leadership development and insights. I'm your host Eddie Turner, the Leadership Accelerator. I work with leaders to accelerate performance and drive impact through the power of executive coaching, masterful facilitation and professional keynote speeches. Wherever you're joining us from today, please go ahead and let us know you are here by dropping a comment in the chat box. And if you hear something that is of um, interest to you, that resonates with you, let us know. If you have a question, ask your question. We want you to be a part of the conversation. And uh, the platforms don't always pass everything through, but if I see it, I will acknowledge it. Uh, we're streaming on YouTube, LinkedIn and Facebook. If you're not following my guest today, I want you to strongly consider doing so. You'll see why as we enter our conversation. Uh, and also uh, you're going to grab a copy of any of his five books, but especially uh, this latest book that we're going to talk about today as well. Now there is no shortage of opinions and ideas about work and life and this word called balance between the two. Uh, how you do that, how you achieve it. It's, it's, it's a never ending quest that we are all are on and that many talk about. How can we achieve it? In his book, Work Life Bloom how to Nurture a Team that Flourishes, dad Pontiff gives his unique perspective on um, how to build strong workplaces with great teams for great people. Where everyone blooms Dan Pontiff is a renowned leadership strategist, an award winning author and keynote speaker with over two decades of experience helping organizations and leaders improve their overall performance. He's presented four four TED talks. He's earned multiple industry awards including the Thinkers 50 Radar, HR Weekly's 100 Most Influential People in HR People Hums Top 200 Thought Leaders to Follow and Inc. Magazine's Top 100 Leadership Speakers. Dan has written five best selling books including the Gold Medal winner of the Axiom Business Books Awards, Work, Life Bloom. And that's the book we're going to talk about today. But he's also a Forbes writer and writes for the Harvard Business Review. Join me in welcoming to keep leaning live to discuss Work Life balance is Dan Pontiffak. Dan.

Speaker D: Welcome to the show, Mr. Turner. It's, uh, a privilege. It's an honor. That's honor with both H O n O r and H O n O U r Canadian to an American. Hope you're doing well. Thanks for the time today.

Speaker C: I love the Canadian, uh, translation, uh, of that. Thank you. That's finesse. Let's see. This is part of why I just couldn't wait to interview you. I love your personality. I love your spirit. And for those who don't know, uh, I actually met you at the prestigious Thinkers50 event, which you are one of the honorees on the radar list there. And do you remember this?

Speaker D: Do I remember this? You're the most affable, lovable strategic leadership coach that I think I know. And, um, we had some good times both in our private function and, uh, in some of the larger sessions there with, uh, Dory, with Marshall, and then, um, the bigger audience. So, Eddie, that was my first time giving you a big bear hug. It was amazing. Thank you. It was.

Speaker C: I appreciate that. So, yeah, meeting you, uh, last, uh, uh, November, just this past November in, uh, uh, in London at the Fingers50 event at the pre party there that we had with the Rexers, the Dory Clark group of recognized experts, uh, so yourself and mbs, our friend Michael Bungay stand here, just, uh, a special night and then that's all together the next couple of days.

Speaker D: Well, I mean, the photo is a little bit ruined with Michael in it, but despite that, I'm happy with, uh. I'm happy with that shot. Yeah. Well done, Eddie.

Speaker C: So for those who don't know, your fellow Canadian and great friend.

Speaker D: Yes. I mean, if no one's getting myself deprecating Canadian humor yet, then, you know, you might as well pop off. But yeah, no, mbs, good friend to both of us. And, uh, ridiculously handsome, obviously.

Speaker C: Indeed. Indeed. Now, I also did not tell people that you, uh, host, uh, one of the best podcasts around. So if they haven't tuned in, they definitely want to do that. And I had the great honor of being featured on your podcast. They should listen, despite the fact you had me on. But, uh, it was such a treat to be on your show. I really enjoyed it. And then you did something that I just thought was just. Just. Just first class. You're amazing. Uh, you then wrote about the content of the interview in a Forbes piece. So just really phenomenal work that you're doing. And I. I just couldn't wait to have you because I wanted to just, uh, have more people know about you and your great work. So please tell us anything I may have missed that they should know, uh, who are hearing from you and learning about you for the first time.

Speaker D: Well, uh, I suppose, first and foremost, Eddie, I'm, uh. I'm. I'm dad to three lovely, uh, younglings. Uh, they are 21, 19, and 17. So being a dad is really important. Um, perhaps equally so is being, uh, a hubby to Denise lamarche. Married a great French babe. Um, but mostly I would say that, uh, I'm trying to be the antithesis, which is a fancy word to say the opposite of my last name. My last name is Ponty Frac. The Ponty part means bridge, uh, in Latin, le pont in French. And frac means to break. So I'm trying to build bridges, Eddie. I'm trying to be the opposite of my last name. And those bridges often are between, um, concepts like the employee to senior leaders, uh, organizational culture, to the wretched ways in which organizational, uh, culture plays out. I kind of live, uh, in this, um, world where I hope that one plus one equals three. But I'm trying to determine for people how you can get that math equation right.

Speaker C: All right. Well, that is wonderful. Great content, great background. Love hearing that. And, Dan, I. I wanted to read. Tell people about your. Your great book here. So tell us about Work Life Bloom, how to Nurture a Team that Flourishes it. This doesn't just blossom overnight. Tell us the genesis of it.

Speaker D: Yeah, no. Um, so, Eddie, I guess a couple titles that we didn't use at the beginning. Uh, one was Work Life do was, uh. That was too negative. Also, Work Life Gloom was another one that didn't really, uh, you know, rub off the page too well. Um, so what. What I set out to do was to refute a couple, you know, HR Senior leader concepts that seem to be painted into the values on the walls of organizations, yet they're not really either employed or they're impossible. And so clearly with. With what we're going to chat a little bit about today, one of those is Work Life Balance. And for me, what I've learned in the research and, you know, I've been around the sun 53 times, so I've been, you know, boots on the ground, watching this happen and unfold over like three decades now is that um, it actually starts with work life imbalance. And I think what we try to do as leaders and organizational culture wise is we're positing something like work life balance as if that's attainable or the goal. And what I've discovered, Eddie, is that we need to start with the fact that there is an imbalance and there will always be an imbalance between life and work. And it's our duty both as humans, as individuals, but also a leadership, arguably fiduciary responsibility if they want performance, productivity, revenues, etc, to actually start there as well so that we can develop and inculcate the right levers to help people to, to bloom. But we're not going to be able to balance all the time. And in fact we're not going to be able to bloom all the time. So we have to be a little bit more real with what's happening out there and stop sort of serving up a bit of this uh, HR culture garbage which is, you know, uh, something like work life balance.

Speaker C: Indeed. Well said. And, and this, this imbalance that we're trying to get around. And as you said, let's get real. And you've gotten so real in this book. It's not just uh, me as a, as a podcast so saying that this is a good book, but this book ended up on the prestigious list of Vicar's 50s 10 Best New Management Books for 2024. And for those who don't know, Bakersmith is the Oscars for leadership and management. So when they say your book is good, your book is good.

Speaker D: It's amazing. Amazing where $20 will, will take you. Eddie. Uh, uh, be honest. Um, no, I'm so thrilled that uh, I guess the unique part about the Thinkers50 nod there is that uh, it's, it's user nominated and then somehow, which is kind of nice, that means enough people, I suppose, had read enough to put it forward as a, as a possibility for the 2024 list. I mean to sit there beside, you know, Z, uh, and Adam and Amy amongst others is pretty, pretty, um, pretty humbling I must say. But that said, it's uh, it's. It's not about me, right? I mean I, I do this work because I'm so A curious but B, thwarted by um, my work in the organizations that I'm privileged to work with. And when I say thwarted, I'm thwarted by some of those inanities that continue to keep popping up. And so, you know, I'm not going to stop writing or speaking or consulting until uh, until I'm gone, man. Because I, I think there's lots of work still to do for guys like you and I.

Speaker C: Indeed, indeed. And yes, you don't end up on this list by accident. This is a list, as you said that the names of the people, Adam Grant, Amy Edmondson. Uh, I mean this is a vetted list. This isn't a popularity contest. I mean they, your book was submitted, people said it, but then the, the top thinkers looked at all these and voted on it. So that's uh, why I want folks to know that uh, we're interviewing you, talking to you, because uh, you're definitely someone to know, read about, read and follow. Wonderful. So you, you gave us your point of view because it seems like it's an oxymoron, this, this idea to the point that you just made, that it's something we can have. It's become kind of a laughing joke. But when we look at the impact it has on people's lives, it is not a joke. And you use a lot of real life stories in your book. Can you just give us one example of how uh, the principles that you put forth really work?

Speaker D: Well, um, I, I did get to meet several people through the interviews and through the research. One that sticks out, um, is, is Angie Kim. Angie is, ah, an immigrant to Toronto, Ontario, Canada, having spent sort of, sort of her youth with a military dad from South Korea and they bombed around a little bit through the world and then eventually ended up in Toronto. And so she did uh, an undergrad degree there, got a couple jobs, but then landed in a very large um, chain that has drugstores, pharmacies, uh, grocery stores, financing, et cetera. And Angie eventually became, after this sort of 11 year run at the company, the uh, VP of buying, which is a big job. And she had a humongous team of thousands and her job is to buy products like for the grocery stores, for the pharmacies, etc. So she's got a team and they're all working with every possible vendor you can think of, that cpg and um, so what she discovered over kind of the evolution between director and vp, when she was promoted into those roles, that there was more being placed on top of her and she was feeling that soul sucking sound of imbalance. And here she was, um, you know, 11 year career and then eventually she, she said I, I'm burnt out, I can't do this. And without anywhere to go, and with her husband's blessing, uh, she, she quit and had to figure out what really made sense for her from this work life imbalance piece and what really made her drive in terms of meaning, in terms of purpose, strategy, you know, all these kind of work and life factors that I associate in the book. But Angie's a really good example because she, she wanted something, she thought she had it. And then uh, she sort of stepped back and said actually this is too much. And it's, it's also not enough meaning, not enough on the balance side, not enough from a purpose meaning, you know, Norm's perspective and too much on what the organization was asking her to do. And so consequently, um, through self recognized, um, and therapy recognized burnout, uh, she took almost about a year, uh, just trying to piece together some serenity, some calmness, some. Who am I, Some kind of id, uh, definition again. And from outside of Toronto, where she was working in headquarters at this very large, uh, multi billion dollar organization, she moved about 300 kilometers, so let's call that about 200 miles, um, you know, down the road to a very small town, the town in which had less people than were under her direct reports, like under her team size at the, at the organization. And she's now managing uh, what we call Canadian Tire. It's kind of like a little bit like a Home Depot, uh, in this community of about 4,000 people. And she's loving it. Uh, her husband Matt, they both, obviously, they moved there from Toronto. And she's now feeling that she's blooming and flourishing again because she's not feeling all of the extraneous pressures. She's able to define her balance between work and life and the store and her husband and her community. And I think it's a really good example where as a millennial, doesn't um, matter your age, but as a millennial, thinking that she needed something, she was going up that ladder, it became quite, um, quite difficult to have the recognition to pull back and then to make a change. And she's uh, she's a good example of moving up, crashing down and moving back up. Which is Eddie to say exemplary. But I think one of the things I discovered through the research is that um, why work life balance is sort of meaningless is that we will all, like Angie's example, we will all have times in which we'll be up or down or somewhere in between. And so you can't be fully balanced or engaged or uh, flourishing all the time. I think we need to be honest with ourselves and leaders need to be honest with their team that you can't have this 100% quest of work life balance or employee engagement or pick your poison because we're humans, we have ups and downs. So let's get over that.

Speaker C: Yes. And thank you for sharing that story about Angie. And I remember reading a little bit about that in your book. And one of the things that stood out to me about her was she was not only emotionally intelligent as a leader, but she had a lot of self awareness to where that led her to taking the steps that you're talking about. And she was protective of her people and felt like she couldn't give them what they needed. And so I just thought she was just a remarkable example. So thank you for sharing that. Your, uh, use of that word as you told that story again about blooming takes you back to what you said when you were coming with the title. So talk a little bit specifically about why you use that specific word as your antidote to what needs to happen.

Speaker D: So, Eddie, I was. I'm a cyclist. So, uh, I cycle depends on the week, but usually it's a. It's about 275, 300 kilometers. So again, probably about 200 miles a week. Yeah. Gotta stay fit, you know. Gotta stay fit, Eddie. And, um, it was, uh, on one of those bike rides in February. Now I live in the Northwest, so in Canada we don't really get snow. Well, we don't get snow. So we have more like a Seattle Northwest climate, so. Or England for those, uh, that know England weather. It's drizzle in February. It's not snow. So I'm off on a bike ride and I, um. It's like middle of February. It's just kind of after Valentine's Day. And I'm like, whoa, look at those daffodils. And I'm thinking myself, yeah, yeah, we always get daffodils in February, uh, here in Victoria, because it's lovely. It's a lovely place to live. But then it sort of hit at me. I was like, huh, the daffodils are gone in May. But then they're. There's daffodils happening, you know, in uh, in the Eastern seaboard of, uh, you know, Maine or in New York or outside of Toronto, where I used to live. So I'm like, huh, so daffodils bloom and then they're, they're gone. And then they come back again the next year and they bloom and then they're gone. And so I wasn't probably using the word bloom, but I was thinking to myself, huh, huh. Maybe Eddie, like we're a lot like plants. Maybe we have opportunities to bloom, but then we have to be realistic that there's some other nurturing that goes on. And so this kind of idea that actually, through, um, weather patterns, you know, when there's fire and heat or whether there's sunlight or whether there's good water or too much water, uh, a hurricane that might wilt or, you know, take out a stem or whatever the case may be, there are extraneous factors that hit us, but that also we're. We're kind of like the cycles of a, Of a plant. We, we plant ourselves. So we might be, you know, um, in renewal, might be a seed, but then we might be budding, uh, we might be stunted by something that's going on, or we might be blooming. And I hope we all bloom for as long as we can. But, uh, I turned the greenhouse light on myself, Eddie, and I realized that I haven't bloomed for every career move, every time in my life, every work life scenario. I realized that I'm just like everybody else. I'm like Angie. I'm like you. There are times when we bloom, there are times when we not. So can we just stop with the nonsense and know that sometimes we're budding, sometimes we're stunted, sometimes we're in renewal, little seed planting, and sometimes we're blooming, and that's okay. And if we can start there, Eddie, then I think all of us will have a better sense of self. And you know, to your point about Angie, I really loved your, Your pickup there. Um, the, the self recognition that it's actually okay to be in renewal so long as you're taking steps, right, to fuel the redevelopment so that you have the right water, the right soil, the right nutrients, so to say. So in the case of Angie, she can bloom again like she did at Canadian Tire.

Speaker C: So true. And in fact, to bloom, we do have to go through that renewal process and that recultivating at times. And the reason, another reason your whole, Your book and your work stood out to me is because when I saw that title, and I remember you explaining it to me when we met even, is that, uh, I may have even shared this with you, that when I was growing up, one of the senior, uh, leaders, uh, wife used to always, uh, remind us that, hey, sometimes you have to learn to bloom where you've been planted. Because, uh, sometimes I want to make too many changes, whatever. But, you know, and think that, you know, I need to go to another. Another soil. But she said sometimes Learn to be, to bloom where you've been planted. And that always stuck with me. So very, very good usage of the word and what it means to us in our careers in the workplace. Thank you, Dan. Well, what I want to do now is I want to pause for just a moment and, uh, highlight, uh, the sponsor of the Keto E Keep Leading podcast. If a single employee's indecision can cost an organization $10,000 to a million dollars, imagine the potential financial impact when more individuals are added to this indecision equation. It can spiral out of control quickly. Well, the solution is Decision X. It is a bespoke on demand service designed to help your leaders overcome indecision and move forward with their work. Visit Papillon MDC and discover how you can help your team get unstuck, uh, shift perspective and advance today. That's PapillonMDC ca

Speaker A: all.

Speaker C: Ah, right. Well, uh, Dan, before I jump back into the conversation that you and I are having, I want to share, uh, with you that we have someone who's tuned in from LinkedIn. We have a couple folks on Facebook that have given us a reaction. So thank you to Tasha, uh, Tatasha, Warren Waltz, for showing us a little love there on the Facebook side. On the LinkedIn side, Sharon Summerfield has weighed in on our conversation. So thank you, Sharon, for, for not only, uh, viewing our, our discussion, but weighing in live. She says, yes, sometimes we need to learn to bloom where we have been planted. So she's weighing in, um, on that conversation. Thank you, Sharon. Any further acknowledgement on, uh, that first of all, Sharon's.

Speaker D: Sharon's an amazing, supportive individual of my work. So I want to shout out to Sharon, another great Canadian up here, uh, in the, the Great White North. But, uh, thank you, Shar, tuning in. And yes, um, I end the book actually, somewhere in there, Eddie, um, with a, ah, there's a Canadian poet. Her name's Britain Oakman. And Britain. Britain writes, um, every season is one of becoming, uh, but not always one of blooming. Be gracious with your ever evolving self. I think that that notion is that, um, like we're, we're in this stage of becoming and, and it may not be in the becoming that you bloom. And that's okay. So you have to respect the becoming phases that might be only budding or you know, to your point, um, bloom where you're planted. Sometimes it takes a while to bloom because of the conditions of the planting, I. E. The soil nutrients, you know, the pH balance, etc. So, meaning, for example, in Real world. What if, uh, you know, your company was acquired and you get a new boss? Uh, what if you, um, you know, you're privileged to have a new child into your home? What if, uh, your parents are one of them suffering from dementia? What if, you know, uh, you're premenopausal or menopausal and you're suffering, uh, from some sort of wellness factor? All of these things can impact whether you're blooming or not. And we need to be, um, as Oakman says, gracious with your ever evolving self.

Speaker C: Well said. Thank you for that. And thank you, Sharon, again for tuning in and being a part of our conversation. We appreciate you. And as we move into our final stages here of the conversation, if you're watching and listening, we invite you to do as Sherry did. Let us know your reaction to what's being said. And if you have a question for Dan, please feel free to post your questions so you can answer it for you. Dan, you make a point in your book. And I think we probably have covered this, but I want to just highlight this. I really like the way you said it. You said that work and life are complementary and contradictory forces. And I just really like the way you said that. Can you talk about that a little bit more?

Speaker D: Yeah, very happy to. Eddie, thanks for the call out. Um, well, I mean, complimentary means that sometimes life can talk nicely into work or vice versa. And so all of a sudden you feel like you're just, um, the cat's meow, Eddie, where you might be able to, uh, do a little bleisure trip, right? So you're off on some meeting or you're able to go out to a conference. And next thing you know you're like, you know what, I'll stay a couple more days and I'm gonna invite my partner or a friend to hang out with me. And that's like, oh, work tucked into life and life tucked into work. This is great. That's complimentary. But, um, there are times when it's contradictory because you're unable to disassociate something that might be going on in life that you have to bring into work, and that's going to affect your work. And so, you know, let's say you're renegotiating your mortgage rate, uh, these days. And that's weighing heavily on you because your mortgage rate is. Your mortgage will have to go up somewhere between 3, 4, 5, $600, $700 a month. Like, where am I going to come with that money that's going to weigh on you at work. And it's contradictory because you probably will want to be thinking about either other ways in which to save, ways in which to talk to your boss about a pay raise so you can afford that new mortgage rate and so on. So you're contradictory in that sense because the work might suffer. It's supposed to not, right, Eddie? But it will because of that contradictory effort that's happening with, um, your real life. So I think we just, again, it's part of being, being rational and real that sometimes they're copacetically in unison and sometimes they're diametrically opposed. And again, um, it's okay, uh, in either of those situations, so long as we're conscious and cognizant of what to do about those, uh, certain scenarios.

Speaker C: Indeed. And not only we as individuals, but also leaders leading others when we have people that are in a role or in a period in the role where it's complementary. But then when that contradictory phrase kicks in, uh, and maybe the performance goes down, do we understand that perhaps this is a period where the employee is going through stress at home that they may not be able to talk about yet, but it's impacting their, how they're showing up at work. Um, and do we just write them off or do we give them the assistance they need to get to and weather that storm so they can get back to the complimentary side of work? So I really liked how you highlighted that as, uh, a part of it and again, to allowing us to then be rejuvenated and boom, so we can have that work life balance. I love it.

Speaker D: Amen. Amen.

Speaker C: Well, tell us if you would, please, Dan, what's the most important content, uh, you want people to take away from our conversation that we've had today?

Speaker D: Be gracious with your ever evolving self. Uh, we, whether you're 18 or 98, we are, we are on, uh, as the first nations indigenous teachers, like a journey to the waterfall. And that's a metaphor for life. It meanders. Sometimes it's dry, sometimes it's overflowing, and sometimes it's just right. But, um, we need to be gracious in the sense that, um, we are all becoming. And that blooming is awesome. I hope you spend as much time as possible in that quadrant. But to be budding or stunted and in renewal is equally okay. So long as you're gracious with your ever evolving self and that you continue on the development path to the waterfall.

Speaker C: Be gracious with your ever evolving self. Now, I love that as our Final thought. But I was also going to ask you, what's a leadership quote you used to keep bleeding? Uh, I like that one, but do you have another one that you wanted to share?

Speaker D: I think I'll end with this, Eddie. I've lived my work and my life, uh, with a declaration of purpose. So I actually encourage people in many of my workshops and talks to actually do the work and to find the words that matter to you to declare your purpose. Because I'm not a big fan of. Start with why, Uh, I have to be honest, I have a, A better sense of is like, um, declare who you are so that people know who you are and what you stand for. It's not necessarily a why, it's a little bit more of a declaration. So anyway, so if it's one line, two lines, whatever the case may be, mine, Eddie, is as follows. We're not here to see through each other. We're here to see each other through.

Speaker C: Mhm. I love that. That is powerful. That is powerful. Thank you, Dan. And I'm going to insert something, if I might, something that you said to me before that I want to share because I think this fits with our Canadian theme. Right? All the Canadians we talked about, my sponsors in Canada, so love it. But uh, this thing here, to improve is to change. To be perfect is to change often. Sir Winston Churchill. So I, uh, want to just throw that in because you just gave me so many good nuggets, Dan, I could talk to you for hours. Thank you so much. I'm excited that I finally got a chance to interview you. Thank you so much for being a guest on the Keep Leading podcast.

Speaker D: It was honestly the great, great honor of mine. Um, ET Phone Dan, anytime. Not just home.

Speaker C: Will do. And I want folks to, um, pick up a copy of your book, Work Life Bloom. You've written books. Pick up a copy of any of your books. Check out your TEDx talks that you've delivered. Visit your website, Dan pontiff.com and uh, we, we're running that at the bottom of the screen for those to be able to see. Uh, how to, um, get to your website, follow you on social media, Read your work wherever they find it. Thank you again for being a guest.

Speaker D: You're a awesome dude. Mr. Turner, thank you again.

Speaker C: Thank you, Dan. And thank you for listening. That concludes this episode of the Keep Leading podcast. The live version, everyone. I'm Eddie Charter, reminding you that leadership is not about our position or our title. Leadership is action. Leadership is activity. It's not a garment that we put on and take off. We must be a leader at our core and allow it to emanate in all we do. So whatever you're doing, always keep leading.

Speaker B: Thank you for listening to C Suite Radio, Turning the volume up on business. This podcast is a part of the C Suite Radio Network. For more top business podcasts, visit C suiteradio. Com.