Did the Budget Just Make Britain Harder to Build In?

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Speaker C: Welcome to Jimmy's Jobs of the Future and you are joining us for a special episode that was recorded in the venture capital firms Atomico's offices. We held it in collaboration with the Startup Coalition, who are a brilliant organization making the case for startups to government. Their chief executive, Dom Halas, has done an amazing job over the last few years standing up for this fast growing, growing sector. I sat down with Alex Dupledge, who many of you will know is a entrepreneurship advisor to the Chancellor who has announced that she will be leaving government after this budget. She's been in there for 18 months doing a great job. We sat down, had a chat with her and her immediate thoughts on the budget and her lessons from it. My personal reaction was that it was, as always with a budget, a very big and important day that gives you an insight and direction of where the government is heading. There were lots of quite small changes, changes which has been commented on, um, but what I specifically wanted to dive into was the package for entrepreneurs. There is a return of founders relief which is going to allow founders to exit with 10% capital gains tax up to 10 million pounds. The treasury is going to be running a consultation on it over the next couple of months of how it will work. Exactly. From my perspective, signals are important and they are particularly important for this community. One of my reflections of entrepreneurs is that they often don't have teams of public affairs people and lobbying agencies helping them with this and you'll hear Alex reflect a bit on that in our, uh, interview as well. So without further ado, I wanted to get into the conversation that we had with Alex Du Pledge. Here are some of her immediate reactions Just a few hours after the Chancellor sat down. Hello. Great to see everyone. My name is Jimmy McLachlan, host of the Jimmy's Jobs of the Future podcast and used to work in Downing street between 2016 and 2019. Um, everyone seems rather happy today, which I can assure you, during my days in Downing street, the technology community were not necessarily that happy with some of the things that we did. So it's a mark of how things have come. I'm here with Alex Dupledge. Do you want to explain what you've been doing for the last 18 months?

Speaker D: Yeah. Hi. So I am an entrepreneur, or, well, I suppose a recovering entrepreneur. Um, and I went into government, um, under the last administration, stayed on. I did the 2025 budget as the Chancellor's entrepreneurship advisor, which is, like, just such a mouthful. Like, I wish we had, like, a snappier title. Um, and then stayed on for the 26 budget, which we deliver today.

Speaker C: What do founders get wrong about government?

Speaker D: Okay, number one, the budget starts way earlier. So, like, I found it really funny. Like, three weeks ago, people were, like, asking me to go to dinner to, like, lobby me, or can they come in and, like, have a round table? I'm like, mate, we've done major measures. It's done, like, we locked it. So I guess, like, you need 10 weeks, 12 weeks, uh, for the OBR from telling to set the. But you've got to give them 12 weeks notice or 10 weeks, something like that. It's basically three months, right? But at that point, that's when you start lobbying. Like, and it is amazing the amount of people that come in, like, a month or three weeks before. And I'm like, literally nothing I can do. Sure, you've got great, valid points. The other one is that, uh, I'm just going to say it, that the OBR is a rational entity. It's not. And the reason I say. The reason I say that is they only score the cost. They never score the counterfactual. So for. Let me give you an example. So stamp duty on shares, right? So there's a hypothetical of, like, if we don't charge stamp duty on shares, we're going to, let's say, for argument's sake, three billion. Right. A year. But the counterfactual to that is, well, how many companies are not listing on the stock exchange, and how many transactions are not happening because we're charging stamp duty? So it's a really hard argument to win. Like, the. The kind of growth argument is insanely hard to win in the Treasury Um, and you find yourself going a bit mental a lot of the time because you're just like, I just don't understand. Explain that to me again. Why, why have we not done this? Counterfactual to that. So there's that. I think the. To. To give the treasury its due. There's an awful lot of heat on it that says that the treasury doesn't understand growth. And I don't, I don't think that's true. In my experience working with, um, I'm going to say old money terms, DC, DBT number 10, number 11, they, they definitely get growth, right? Collectively, everyone's working for growth. Um, I think I actually blame the obr, to go back to my original point. It's that, like, if the OBI is going to score R and D as a growth measure, then there's a natural inclination amongst the officials that, uh, will just do more R and D. And. But this tax over here is, is a cost. I don't know if I'm making any sense, but that's essentially what you don't get. Um, because you don't make any sense to the real world because that's just not how we work. Right? Could you imagine, like, rocking up with a business plan and, like, not scoring your growth measures? It just, just would happen. So.

Speaker C: And what have you changed your mind on in the last 18 months?

Speaker D: Um, to piss everybody off in the room. Um, because it's a bit of a gift of mine. It's that, like, I love entrepreneurs, right? I am one. But you're really whiny. Um, and you, like, you're as bad as everybody else at thinking this is some magic money tree, like out back, that if I go shake it, I can go to come up with, like, all this money to fund all of this stuff. And, and I would say it's actually a criticism. And this is why I'd never be a politician of the wider country, which is like, do we know that the police, the nhs, education infra, all this stuff needs money? Everybody can give you a compelling reason why you should fund something, but you have to stand back and go, well, the, the amount that we need is this big and the amount we've got is this much, so how do we make the trade offs? And even really smart people, like, really smart people that are building insanely massive innovative companies that I'm not bright enough to even think of or run, even those guys still are like, but what about me? And it just sort of pisses me off on a regular basis if I'm being totally frank with you.

Speaker C: So what ways could people go about it that's better then? Because inevitably people are going to lobby for their own interests. Right,

Speaker D: do what I did. So when I went in there, I made Rachel the promise that I would come up with cost neutral policies. So I would look at where we were spending the money, assess, like, if it was a good, like, value for money, if we were getting stuff out of it, and if not, how can we repurpose that money and direct it into an area that we think we can get more, like, more bang for our buck? I mean, isn't this just what we do every day? Like, if you've, if you're running a company and you're allocating capital, as a CEO, you want to know what your ROI is, and if your ROI is bad, you divert it. Right. We don't do that in government. Like, no one ever goes back and says, oh, you know that piece of primary legislation that we did, is it working? No, we just, we just put more on top of it. We never go back and reform it. And it's the same with the allocation of capital. And so that's what I would say is that if you're in a health care or you're, wherever you are, find out where, where, where we're blowing money and believe me, we're spending money all over the shop. There's loads of money that we could save. Find those pockets of money that's not been spent well and then go, do you know what, actually that you could spend that over here and this is what I deliver, make the business case for it. But no one does. We come with a laundry list of problems and we never try and, um, answer the solutions. Because one of the biggest things that I've tried to solve, and it's a really boring project, but, um, I wanted to try and create like a single front door for entrepreneurs so they could actually access government. Because one of the things that I've seen over and over again is we've got these really bright, small, smart companies that can do loads of good, whether it's, you know, selling into government and making government work more effectively or selling into the private sector, um, as the government procures. And it's just really hard to talk to the right people and like, pull the right levers because it's such a massive monolith. So one of the things I tried to create in um, in DBT is a single front door. And I think, well, they've called it scale, scale, scale uk. I hated it. You know that though, don't you? Yeah, sorry, I want. I lost that argument. I don't think government's any good at branding. I don't know when it goes for me. Anyway, so Scale UK is going to be that and it's, it sounds really dull and dry and obviously won't get any pickup in the budget because it like costs no money. But it's essentially a highly um, like it's a, it's a database updates on a, like an overnight basis that monitors all of our high growth companies around the UK and then tracks our interaction with them. We, which means that we can. Then we like, we've got a, A, uh, basically a CRM, like single view of the customer and we know like what you want. Instead of like if you're a health tech company, you're talking to DBT about business and then talking to like health about something else. It's like trying to unify that so that we can actually intervene. Uh, things that only government can do. So only government can sort out regulation, only government can do visas, only government can do like public procurement. Don't off mentorship and all that other stuff. Right. We don't need that. We've got a great private sector that does that. But the things that only government can do we should be doing really well. And that's what Scale UK is going to try and do is like help companies get the support they need from government. Like basically create the right environment and like get out of the way.

Speaker C: When you came on Jimmy's Jobs of the Future, just before you started you said which time. Well, exactly your most appeared guest. But what you said, you got three priorities. Right. Of which I know that kind of Founders Relief and M EMI are a big part. Yeah. Of that. Like why focus on those and talk us through why we've ended up at the levels that we have today with them.

Speaker D: I think you've got to go right back to like what my theory of growth is. And I'm not saying that this theory of growth is shared across government, but it was certainly the case that I've made to every Chancellor and every Prime Minister, uh, which is the firm is the unit of growth. Like if firms don't grow, then we don't raise taxes, we don't pay good wages, we can't m. We can't improve our public services. So it's fine to like deregulate the planning system, get more houses built, build more infrastructure because your workers need somewhere to live and you need roads, rails and airplanes and all the rest of it to get around the country and do all that stuff. They're the preconditions for growth. The engine of growth is the firm. And the most prosper. The most high growth firms, the ones that have the disproportionate impact on prosperity are, uh, the high growth firms. If you look at the US stock market, it does it. So it does this over the last 20 years and you look at the UK and it kind of does this. You remove the magnificent seven. The line is exactly the same. Seven firms have driven the entire prosperity across the us. Now, you might argue, concentrated in the wrong hands. You can, like, let's, let's litigate that when we've got some growth to litigate against, right? But ultimately, seven firms have driven that. The good news for us is we need one, that's it, one or two standout firms to drive prosperity across the uk. And then you know what it does? It creates new frontier companies, new sectors, solopreneurs, families like, um, small businesses, they all flooding it after it. There's a huge ripple effect. So I went in believing this, right, that a very few number of companies can drive prosperity and growth for us. And so that's what I focused on. And, and I, I welcome the criticism and I welcome the challenge. Like, SMEs are a massive part of our economy and I'm, I'm like, do no harm. Same with corporates. Do no harm. But this group, this group of 40,000, that's it, 40,000 companies. Like, we can identify every single one of them and we can track them. That is the group that will grow this economy. That is the group that will allow us to fund the NHS and do all that stuff. So do you know what? For me, and this is not a government thing at all, they are the only people that matter because everything else is downstream, everything. Because until we get the economy growing, you're just fighting over a smaller and smaller part of the pie. And that's why we all feel, like, heavily taxed and we all feel down in the mouth and no one's winning. And actually we portray the UK economy like it's a version than it actually is. Actually, we're not doing that bad. In fact, we're doing just the same as we were doing in 2010. And in 2010, when I started, we were like on top of the world. We just come off the back of the 2008 recession. But you would have known it around Shoreditch and like all, all street, we were just like, we're going to build these companies going to be great. That's the difference between feeling like you're winning as a country and feeling like you're failing. And right now we feel like we're failing. And so for me, the only thing that matters is getting the economy growing again. Because if we do that, everything else will just become that much easier.

Speaker C: And how, what do you make of the culture inside government? Most people in here haven't been inside government. And uh, a lot of what you're talking about there, ah, is cultural kind of change that we need. And government is partly responsible for creating the culture alongside media disproportionately. What, what have you made of the kind of culture within government and how that leads to our wider culture of ambition?

Speaker D: I think there's a, I think there's a problem in the way that our democratic system is set up, if I'm being totally frank with you, which is we make decisions over a five year cycle. And unfortunately, when you think about R D and innovation and science, you know, you're talking about 20, 30, 40 year cycles. Um, and so it's, it, the, the first thing to cut is the longer term stuff when you're looking for savings. And I'm not saying this government or previous governments have done that, but we definitely haven't invested. You know, like we went through austerity with Cameron and Osborne and that arguably might have been the right thing. What we did not do is invest the dividend. We didn't invest in infrastructure. And that's why everything feels like it's breaking. You know, we, we didn't invest in like the long term. And this is why we are where we are now. And unfortunately, rightly so. Voters, the general public, want to feel like their lives are getting better. The problem with that is you actually need sustained and sustainable growth. And that is, that is like turning a tanker. Once that tank starts going, the moment carries it forward of its own volition. Once you stop it, getting it going is insanely hard. And so we've got this dichotomy now that exists in public discourse which is like, everybody wants change now, everybody wants answers now, everybody wants it to be all better now. And the truth is it can't and it won't. And every time we keep tinkering around the edges, all we are doing is delaying the inevitable stuff that needs happen to drive growth. And the way that I always think about this is like Nick Clegg. I actually like Nick Clegg. Uh, I know, and no one does anymore, but whatever, I really like him. But one of the Things he said in, like, whenever he was in the coalition is like, we're not going to do nuclear because they're not going to come in line until 2020. Imagine, imagine if we had those nuclear power stations now. We'd be six years into nuclear power, we wouldn't have this energy issue. And that, I think, to me, epitomizes, like, why we are where we are. And I don't have the answers because I don't think it's easy. Like, how do you, how do you convince a, uh, relatively disengaged, disenfranchised public that they've got to endure a bit of hardship to get to the other side? Well, I, I mean, the other option is we'll end up in some sort of like, writing on the streets, like we've got in France and Italy, in my opinion.

Speaker C: Give us some examples of good lobbying. I won't ask for the bad ones. That's unfair. But like, Dom, if Dom, obviously Dom's great

Speaker D: at lobbying.

Speaker C: But what's. I think it's quite interesting, like, because you're right, like the amount of people that come before two weeks for a budget and be like, I've got an idea for you. It's like, great. But what's. What. Yeah, what can. What more can be done?

Speaker D: I think it's, I think it's building a relationship, like, so it's not just turning up with a list of demands that you're like, waiting. You know, these are the things we need. Right. It's building a relationship. And, and actually I think it's having um, quite a realistic view of like, what's, like taking the time to understand the constraints someone's working within and then saying, this is like the dream. Now I know you can't. This is not great. So actually if we just did this sort of bit over here, that would be fine. And actually coming with a, ah, view of, of, of like how you might be able to cost and fund that. Um, so, yeah, I think the p. The, the, the emails and the meetings that I've always taken is where someone's gone. I know you're really busy. I know you've got a million things that are going on. I've got this burning issue. I think we can do it this way and this is how you can pay for it. And I'm like, okay, I'm, I'm really interested in seeing that. The other really loved was when people came in with like, quite big ideas because even like a lot of the lobby groups and people will come in and they're, like, tinkering around the edges, like, oh, could you just move this a percentage? And can we do this over here? But people that come in and they're like, I've got this great idea about pensions. I'm like, yes, I'm ready to hear that. Uh, so I think it's just, like, be a bit bolder in the thing. Like, this is what I always think with this community. And, and to be fair, I know I've been a bit neggy on stage, but I have to say, I did a bit of a tour of, um, the UK when I first got into the role, and then subsequently have talked to a lot of people and actually, like, there is absolutely no way that I would have been able to do all of the stuff that I've done in government had I not had the support of this community. And the ideas, like, some of the best ideas didn't come. Well, most of the ideas didn't come from me. It came from talking to you guys. And actually, we are really bright. Not to be egotistical, but we're some of the brightest people in the country, right? We're risk takers. We go off on our own. We don't know what we're doing, but we sort of figure it out, we make it up, we find a way of, you know, making do. And, like, that's, for me, that's British spirit, right? That's what we're all about. And that's what I guess I would leave you with, is like a bit of a call to arms that, like, I might be leaving government. I did not quit, by the way. I was always going. I. I mean, but there's a massive agenda still to go, and you have a very. As Kanishka said, you have a very willing government that is. Wants to listen and gets this agenda now. So I would think big, be bold and cost it. And I think you, you will encounter a very receptive audience.

Speaker C: Um, I totally agree on the Overton Window principle, right, of, like, you know, that should not be underestimated. Get ideas in the public domain and eventually they might happen, even if it takes a long time, which I know the tech community doesn't like. Final question. If you could tell yourself one thing 18 months ago, before you took the job, what would it be? What's been your biggest learning?

Speaker D: I've loved it. I've absolutely bloody loved it. Um, I. I've grown so much as a person, like, so, so much, and got to experience things, experience things that I never thought I would. And and you know what? I'm actually, I. I find this quite hard to say because I'm not normally. I'm normally the person that, like, looks at what I've achieved, like, you know, finds the fault in everything that I've done. I think it's a very woman thing. Right, Sorry, men. Um, but I'm actually massively proud of what I've achieved. Like, we've had the two most pro entrepreneurial budgets in the last 15 years. Um, and, and I think that there's, obviously there's always more to do and we are sitting in a really constrained environment. But, um, I think it's a big achievement when, you know, the chips are really down, uh, to elevate this community. So I think the thing that I've probably learned the most is, um, is actually what I've been doing is not too dissimilar to being a CEO. So, like, when I first went into government, I was like, absolutely convinced that I had no idea what I was doing, and I didn't. But actually it's very m similar to running a business, right, which is you've got to find the problem. We all know what that is, where it is, work out what the solution is, do that by talking to people. And then you got to flog it to a bunch of stakeholders, which is just like your acquisition funnel, right? Working out what messages work, like, who your audience is, how you get them over the line. So. And then you've got to deliver it. It's actually not that different to being a founder. And I actually think if we got more founders into government, the government would be a much, much better place. So, uh, yeah, you should find a way in.

Speaker C: Find a way in. Yeah,

Speaker D: we should infiltrate and take over. That's what we should do.

Speaker C: Well, on behalf of everyone, thank you very much for your, uh, tour of public service. Because I know it's been entertaining and a challenge at times, but, uh, I think today there's been lots of positive stuff. So thank you for all the work you've done over the last 18 months. As ever, Alex very forthright there with her views on how entrepreneurs need to engage with this government going forward. It is a topic that we will be returning to. And, um, as I say, I will also be writing on my substack soon about lobbying in a vibes based economy. Um, one of the other key parts of this budget, one of the macro trends is of course, the cost of energy, which has gone up exponentially with the war in the Middle East. And it was great to chat To Jack from Octopus Energy. We obviously had Greg Jackson on the show a couple of weeks ago talking about the importance of reducing standing charges. And actually the government on the morning announced that they were going to be getting rid of that completely. But it's also a really big cost for business and I think it's been one of the interesting points that the Chancellor has talked about again and again. It's not just the cost of living crisis, it's also a cost of business crisis. And, um, one of the key costs that all businesses face, but particularly intensive ones, is the price of energy. So it was great to sit down with Jack, the head of policy at Octopus Energy, and talk us through a little bit more about what the budget involved for that. Thank you very much for Octopus Energy and their continued support of Jimmy's jobs of the future. Jack, what's your overall reaction to the budget? What stands out most for the energy sector?

Speaker E: Um, it is a good budget. Uh, I can see what the government's trying to do. They're trying to give people breathing space. Energy bills are uh, consistently cited in polling and focus groups as the highest cost of living concern facing people. Um, there's a few very big announcements. Um, obviously people were very pleased about the gas standing charge removal. Um, there's £100 in direct support for people, um, in cancelled tax bans, A to D, um, and also a big one. A kind of multi decade policy issue that this government seems very keen to take on is energy bill levy reform. Um, so I'm very pleased about that.

Speaker C: The government is removing gas standing charges. What will the impact be on households?

Speaker E: So it's shifting costs within the bill. It's going to benefit some households, uh, especially the poorest who use less gas. I think as Nesta said, about four in five of the poorest households will benefit from this measure. But fundamentally the thing with gas bills is that this country, this government cannot control the price of gas. It's gone up massively because we've lost the Russian supply, obviously with the war in Ukraine and then we've lost the supply out of the Middle east as well. So there's a massive gap in gas supply. And Britain, who is a net buyer of gas and always will be from now on because we've burnt through most of our domestic supply, um, is always going to be taking market prices. So the only way to really lower energy bills in terms of, uh, from the perspective of gas, is to get off gas altogether and start electrifying

Speaker C: with energy bills remaining high. Do you think the Chancellor has Done enough to protect households.

Speaker E: I think the government's doing what it can especially to help the uh, more fuel poor homes. There's only so much that a government can do in terms of gas markets. It's completely out of this country's hands what gas prices do. Um, and there's no way that it can really tackle that. Obviously it's bought some more domestic gas supply on but it's marginal. Um, fundamentally again the only way uh, the only route forward to affordable energy again is by reducing our consumption of gas and electrifying um, and to electrify we also need to tackle the massive uh, levies and constraint rents and waste going on in the electricity system generally.

Speaker C: The government has approved the Jackdaw gas field while also pushing towards cleaner energy. Is that a contradiction?

Speaker E: Don't think it is. So with Jackdaw um, it's definitely environmentally better than importing gas from the US M It's cheaper to bring here. It's all going to come into the UK and it will raise um, revenue for the, for the Exchequer and then it can then turn that into supporting people with their bills. But again it's a bit, the kind of supply of oil and gas is a bit of a sideshow really. The problem is our consumption of it. We're consuming way more gas outside of our means. That's because of a legacy energy system. Uh, that made sense when we had a lot of gas supply but we don't anymore. So the only way to cut bills in big terms is by getting uh, cost cutting technologies into people's homes. So that's rooftop solar, it's batteries, it's heat pumps, it's all the electric tech to replace the gas boilers, the gas heating and disconnect people from the gas network entirely. Then they will see cost uh, falls of hundreds of pounds per year.

Speaker C: And finally what does this budget mean for electric vehicles? Are we doing enough to encourage people to make the switch? I obviously talked about this quite a lot with your boss Greg Jackson a couple of weeks ago.

Speaker E: Uh we're getting loads and loads of uh, people get in touch. They want, because they want EVs. Um, I think people just understand that the technology is better. So the cheapest car on the market, petrol or EVs is now an evidence it's made in Europe. It's a Dacia. Um, it's not a Chinese one. Uh yeah, I think it's made in Czechia. I think um, people also get like they're just kind of, they're better technology in that you can Charge an EV at home. You can't fill up your petrol car at home. M while you're sleeping. You can pull the cheapest electrons off the market with an EV charger. You could just are always a price taker with petroleum. Um, so while the government does need to keep the tax regime around, EVs steady so people know what the costs are going to be because a new car is a big investment for people, um, generally we're not seeing any kind of slowdown in demand for EVs. Like people really want them. Now. A lot of my, um, friends and family who aren't interested in energy at all because they're weirdos, they're saying to me, uh, that their next purchase when they get a EV is when they get a new car secondhand or first hand is going to be an ev.

Speaker C: Thanks very much for listening to this special episode of Jimmy's Jobs of the Future. We hope you enjoyed listening to it. We have got some brilliant guests lined up between now and Christmas and we are also launching our Slack community. So this is going to be for students and I'm really excited about it because for a long time I have wanted to have a kind of community where students can engage and do some work shadowing. It's really stuck with me since the Andy Burnham interview that we had where he said that we need to offer. Let's start all again. Um, thanks very much for listening to this special budget episode of Jimmy's Jobs of the Future. I hope you enjoyed it. We have got a very exciting series of guests coming up between now and Christmas and most excitingly, we are going to be launching a Slack community for students. We'll be talking a bit more about this on the episode next week with Salesforce. But why I'm so excited about it is something that really stuck with me from when we interviewed Andy Burnham, um, this summer was about how all business leaders should offer work shadowing. Now, it's quite a challenge at Jimmy's Jobs of the Future. We have quite a small studio and office. We don't have a lot of desk space. But, uh, I believe there is a way that you can experience work culture before you start in it. And that's what I want this Slack community for students to be about. I want them to be able to feed into the guests that we're having, work on the various questions that we're going to be asking. And you will also get master classes from the team. Whether it's about guest outreach, whether it's about how we approach commercial partnerships, and so on. I think it'll be a really valuable space for people that want to get an insight into the future of our economy, but also how we put the podcast together together and so on. So if you are if you enjoy Jimmy's jobs of the future, and I'm guessing if you've made it this far in the episode, then you do please do think about applying to join. We're going to be having 25 to 30 slots in the first cohort, but this is something that we want to expand more and more as we go into 2027 as well. So please think about sending it to a student who you think might benefit from it as well. Thanks very much for listening. And until next time,

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