Hidde Hoogcarspel: Founding & Managing Partner of DFF Ventures

Speaker A: Welcome to the Jazz Shapers podcast from Mishkondaraya. What you're about to hear was originally broadcast on Jazz fm. However the music has been cut due to rights issues.

Speaker B: The world's greatest jazz Soul and blues from the world's greatest artists. This is Jazz FM Jazz Shapers with Elliot Moss in partnership with Mish Khanderea. It's business, but it's personal.

Speaker A: Welcome to Jazz Shapers with me, Elliot Moss, bringing the shapers of the business world together with the musicians shaping jazz soul and blues. My guest today is Hide Hocuspohl, founding and managing partner at early stage venture capital fund DFF Ventures and the co founder of both Spacebuzz foundation, giving children a virtual space Travel experience and SchoolCusser, a UH platform making parents school payments more transparent. Inspired by Dutch astronaut and physicist Wobbo Ockels and his research on how to make our life on planet Earth more sustainable, Hide co founded Spacebuzz in 2017. The VA AR experience inside a real looking space rocket helps children see the earth from space, creating the so called overview effect, a shift in perspective that many astronauts say gave them an increased emotional connection to other people and to planet uh Earth. Co Founded in 2018, DFF Ventures are an Amsterdam based fund that backs marketplaces, software as a service businesses and re commerce platforms in under digitized sectors. Backing over 45 companies in 15 territories. Their companies include to name but two vintage cash cow, the recommerce platform for online antique and vintage items and Shipple, a shipping logistics company simplifying supply chain information. He's here with me all the way. Flown in especially like a vip. Hedda Hor Kaspal. I want to hear you say your own name because that would be better.

Speaker C: Hedda Hoch Kaspal.

Speaker A: It's beautiful. Obviously not English.

Speaker C: Definitely not.

Speaker A: Definitely not. Dutch man.

Speaker C: Dutch. Dutch.

Speaker A: Dutch man.

Speaker C: Gonna be more Dutch.

Speaker A: It's lovely to have you here hither. Thank you for joining. Venture capital is your bread and butter. Just tell me how a normal human gets into the world of venture capital. Because it always amazes me that people end up in the most brilliant sounding job in the world, which is we've got some money in a fund. We go around looking for really interesting businesses and people to invest in and then we do it. I mean it sounds like a joy. How did it happen?

Speaker C: So it happened um, by accident. I grew up with the astronaut Bob Oakos and he was an inventor and uh, that inspired me to also invent. I'm not a real inventor, but that kept me to the dream of new startup, innovation, new things, see opportunities. So that was the ambition from Jung. And then, um, I happened in mid-2015, 16, I made up the idea of the space bus and one of the. I came across some angel investment. And then I came across one company in Leeds where I become very passionate about. I will talk to them in a sec. But, um, that grew out to become a fund. So from there we helped the companies from. As entrepreneurs. We are a group of entrepreneurs from Wetransfer, Just Eat and some others in Holland. And we started helping coaching, whatever you want to call it. Uh, slept on the couch in, uh, Leeds.

Speaker A: A fine place in Leeds. A great place to study and to live, as people know. I did live and study in Leeds and at the university, which was fabulous and wonderful people too. And so actually the story is you're an entrepreneur first and you're a venture capital investor second.

Speaker C: Yeah, I didn't know what the fund was when we started.

Speaker A: Yeah, now I know. Now you know. Um, and this, this first venture, your very first idea, as it were, hard, um, to start it.

Speaker C: Yes. Starting is hard in the beginning is tough. Like how.

Speaker A: I mean, tell me about the toughness. Why? Why is it tough?

Speaker C: It's tough because there is a lot of uncertainty. There is no money. There is, uh, you go against any idea. Yeah, that will not happen. Like any entrepreneur that has an idea and he thinks he or she will change to make it a better place and become a big company, uh, you go against the odds. And that's, I think for every entrepreneur, every idea that you create is. Yeah, that's already there. That will not work. So you have to go against and

Speaker A: something in your mindset here. And we'll get into this more later. What's the voice that says you're wrong? And what's the voice for some of these entrepreneurs says you're wrong. And I'm going to show you. Where does that voice come from?

Speaker C: That's a nice question. I think it's gut. It's gut feeling. And um, the company that one of the companies, I didn't found it, but I was very close to the company in Leeds. Vintage Cashkal. From day one, I thought this is it. That was based on really nothing but gut. Uh, everybody said you're crazy, it will not be flying. This is tough. And again, it took seven years to fly. But, uh, a lot of sweat, blood and tears. Or the other way around. Uh, but it's a little bit gut feeling. And then the gut is of course strengthened by. Yeah. Uh, experience in the past, I would say I think you train your gut to feel when something is this is. This is it. But again, the beginning is tough. You have to overcome a lot of hurdles.

Speaker A: It's hard, but you're living your best life.

Speaker C: Definitely.

Speaker A: And when it started, uh, just help me understand how you square stuff being hard and the toughness of the experience with it still being what you want to do.

Speaker C: That's a good one. Especially in the beginning when you start with not so much, not so much resource, not so much in your companies. 2, 3, 4, 5 people. In the beginning, you have to do everything yourself. Um, from bookkeeping to sales to. All the elements are part of the begin, uh, where later. And also it's interesting to live your life, uh, in the venture world or in a company. It's a little bit like children. Children. If you have a diaper, it's tough. You think that's the only thing. The first child with a diaper. And when they're grown up, they go to university, they got another challenge. So it's like a little bit like that. So children, small problems, big children, challenges and a lot of fun.

Speaker A: And not knowing what you're doing doesn't bother you as in the first time that you did anything, what does that feel like?

Speaker C: And again then. Then you have to. That's nice to. That's also what I see. There's a denominator with also with founders, a little bit more experience. It's nice to have some scars on the back because if you know scars, then you have not experienced what it is to go against, to work against the odds. And if you're a little bit experienced, know what it is to have no money on the bank, angry customers, uh, employees that resign, etc. So that experience is really coming handy. If you do this occupation of, um, helping founders, supporting them and guiding them on the path. That's also what we see in our interaction with founders, that we have the experience and as team of entrepreneurs. So that resonates. Well.

Speaker A: Yeah, they know that you know and your kindred spirits is very, very important.

Speaker C: We directly entangle with them and we, we have with a lot of people, either you have a click or you don't have a click. That's also. But if you have a click, it's a good click. Then. Okay, these guys or ladies understand speak my language. That's what you try to find people speaking your language.

Speaker A: And in terms of your dream and when I was reading and researching you and this first thing called I love the idea of space Buzz Wubbockels. And many people won't know the physicist, the astronaut, but an important person for you, ah, this notion of the overview effect. Just explain in your own words what that was and why that's been so inspirational for you as a human.

Speaker C: Again, he was a very good friend of my parents, so lived many holidays and time together. He was one of the first astronauts, uh, in Holland, the first one in 1985. And he came back and he became professor of sustainability. He's One of the two astronauts become professor and sustainability, which in 1992 was a word that was not so popular. And we saw him change, change because of his six, seven days interspace. And um, he became very, um, adept for sustainability, um, which is a little bit my thing about reuse, but come to that in a sec. So he changed for that purpose and that inspired. And I had young children and I saw the space flying, uh, up there and I thought, okay, how can we give children the effect of the overview in a fast way? And then the VR came by. My children were in school, so I thought, okay, schools are busy. Let's bring the experience to the children. And that's how the space was born, not for profit.

Speaker A: And before he came and talked so passionately about the overview effect, which we now know is a thing. Obviously it's a thing. What was the change for you? Do you remember the conversation you had with him? Or was it more kind of over a period of time?

Speaker C: It's over a period of time and funny or not funny, actually when he died, he had a record the day before he died. It's recorded on YouTube. And he said, suppose I could transfer the experience, which I've had to you. Then you would take care. And care is active. You can hug, you can make a, ah, nuclear power plant, whatever you can do to make it a better place. And that's what he said. And that was my idea, to give this to children and to give them the inspiration to have that you see that this little world is the only thing we have. You can argue, you can fight, but this is just a small thing in the black blackness.

Speaker A: And m. That kernel of the idea then informed what space buzz became. And then the usual thing kicks in here. They says, I'm going to make this happen. And um, right now, that's sort of eight, nine years ago. How many kids have.

Speaker C: Hundreds of thousands again, good and bad. The good thing is it drives. There are a couple of them in Holland. I would have hoped that it was open source across the globe. That's not happening yet.

Speaker A: But you're going to make it happen.

Speaker C: It will happen, but the focus was changed to the companies.

Speaker A: Yeah, we start somewhere. Much more coming up from my guest today. It's Hideh Gospel and he's back in a couple of minutes. Don't go anywhere.

Speaker B: This is Jazz Shapers with Elliot Moss in partnership with Mishkondaraya. It's business, but it's personal.

Speaker A: Our former business Shapers can be found, of course, as you know, on the Jazz Shapers podcast. And you can hear this very program again if you pop Jazz Shapers into your favorite podcast platform. All of us here at Jazz fm, um, have been thinking a great deal about Kanye King after the terribly sad news that Kanye died last week. I'm sure you heard. Kanye, of course, was the visionary MOBO Awards founder and founder of the MOBO Organization, a platform celebrating and amplifying black music and culture and having a huge impact. It's rare for me to use these words, but I must say that it was a privilege to meet Kanye in 2014. And we've republished our conversation so it's easy to find on the podcast. And it seems perhaps typical for Kanye that it's a conversation full of energy and fun and passion. And she talks so powerfully about her childhood and the impact of becoming a parent at 16. And of course the spark for MOBO how she saw all these amazingly talented musicians that were having to look beyond the UK for recognition and her drive and dedication for to change that incredible work. That of course will be celebrated and very much continued. My brilliant guest today is Hide Hogkaspel, founding and managing partner at early stage venture capital fund DFF Ventures, and the co founder of both Space Buzz foundation, giving children a virtual space travel experience, and Skolkasse, a platform making parents school payments more transparent. We've been talking about your early, the first sort of venture, as it were. You're now in a more established grown up business here. I mean, you look incredibly, considering you're 74 at least, maybe 75. I know he's not really. He's probably much younger. I know he's much younger than that. What's it like working with the founders? Do you get a sense of missing out? Do you get a sense of not being quite close to the action? Or do you enjoy the slight distance that you have, whether you sit on the board or he's smiling at me, which means I've peaked it, or do you just want to be in there fixing it?

Speaker C: What's the we are there fixing it.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker C: I'm sorry, we are pretty involved if that's also good. We have an open work place where we have open in and out, coming in. We have a lunch every day, people come. Sandwich with cheese, that's Dutch. And we are there for founders to help, to coach. We could be part of the action. Uh, for some, we are close by and for others, just a little bit like you said, like a board or sounding board. But for some others, we are very close. And with one company, spatific. I go every day with the founder for the last eight years. Every day.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker C: Or maybe more than.

Speaker A: And having worked very closely with the Dutch people, I find you incredibly, um, direct, generally. Really, you know exactly where you stand. I'm assuming that the founders that sign up for this, they want exactly that because they know without that openness and that directness, you're not going to get anywhere.

Speaker C: Yes, but it's a good one. It's taste. If you like tea, yes. Otherwise, no.

Speaker A: Not for everybody, no.

Speaker C: And that's why we have to open lunch and the dinner. And then I like dinners. Dinners, food. Uh, be together. If you don't like this, let's say this. Unasked recommendations, uh, um, challenges. Um, because it can be direct. Not everybody likes that. But if you don't like that. Yeah, sorry. Difficult to be a founder because you will bunch your hat.

Speaker A: And can you see that immediately when someone just isn't up for that?

Speaker C: Um, we try. This is one of the hardest things in the venture capital and especially if you seed capital. Seed, it's like a baby. We see 12 to 1500 babies a year. Which one's going to be the new prime minister or the new whatever, uh, new rock star daddy stuff. So, yes, they could be kids, could be good at five years at violin, eight years, 10 years, then they drop off. So also with founders and also with companies, things could move and then they drop off or hit the ceiling. Now that is a challenge. You cannot always see that, but we try.

Speaker A: And the same goes for you guys as well. How do you make sure you're still on your game? What keeps you fresh and open and strong and able to return investment for you and your, your other investors?

Speaker C: I think by seeing a lot, you create a lot of good feeling. And then, um, we have a group of people around us, also founders, but also, let's say venture partners, to make sure that more people talk to that particular group of founders to have a feeling. What do you think? What do you think? Have a dinner, have another talk, have a drink, and you start to get that feeling will this match. And the other way around, they should also assess us. They come over to us. So you try to. Because you build a long term relation and you cannot just say, oh, break up. Yeah, you can, but it's not that easy. So it's a long term relation and you hope that will last.

Speaker A: When you get emotionally connected and invested in those individuals, but they're not on their game. Is that complicated or are you able to distinguish between what the head is saying and what the heart is saying?

Speaker C: Oh yeah. Well, you see when people are not on, um, but the people that we work and I have the honor to work with a lot of nice founders and especially the ones that really thrive and do very well. It's a life. There is no work or it's just everything floats into each other. Weekend, day, night, evening, it's one.

Speaker A: And that's you as well.

Speaker C: Yeah, definitely.

Speaker A: You're describing your own life.

Speaker C: One, but also the founders. I call Sunday morning. I read something, I have an id Sunday morning. There's not one founder ever said, why do you call me on Saturday morning or Sunday morning? I always call in the weekends. That's also part of the test by the way, if you want to invest in people. I do the weekend test. You call people in the weekend, see if they pick up just on a couple of times and if they don't pick up, if they don't react fast, you know, this is another, another taste, which is fine. You don't have to work in all weekends, of course.

Speaker A: But no, and that. But, but, but balance it there. You look a very healthy guy. You know, you look like you look after yourself. So how do you ensure there is balance between the absolute focus that you need to be a founder and the sense of self love.

Speaker C: It's a fantastic family, everyone in the park every day. But if you do what you love, if you really like it, if you do what you really are passionate about, again, not always easy, but it's the same as sports. But really like this is what is fantastic. I go with joy to the office, Joy to speak to the founders. Of course, not always, but this is the path.

Speaker A: And with all these different companies in the portfolio, tell me how you manage the time between one and then the other. Does it naturally just flow based on where they are?

Speaker C: It's natural. Some people, it's like with children in the path of life. Some need a little bit more attention there, others there. It flows how it flows and it's nice because the companies infect each other because the knowledge that you gain at one, you bring to the other. Maybe in a different shape, maybe a different form, but it's really like interacting with each other. It's really amazing how that works. I would never, ever. It's like a big flower or a big force. It's growing. It's so much dynamic power. Uh, positive energy. Positive energy. I think that's a big one. Not like positive. Come on, we have to go for it. And that drive and passion is really amazing to feel.

Speaker A: Stay with me for my final chat today with Hiday. And we've got some Bill Lawrence for you too. That's in just a moment. Don't go anywhere.

Speaker B: This is Jazz Shafers with Elliot Maas in partnership with Mishkondaraya. It's business, but it's personal.

Speaker A: Hide is my business. Shaper co founder or founder of DFF Ventures. Also Space Buzz. And we didn't talk about school class, but we can maybe five seconds on that. You mentioned long term relationships when we were talking and one of those big long term relationships. British based, proudly British vintage, uh, Cash Cow. I've read a little bit about vintage Cash Cow and I understand what it does and it sounds very, very clever on the surface of it here. This is a strange idea and would have taken time for it to, um, reveal itself. What made you know then that this would be the hit that it is now, even if people haven't heard of it?

Speaker C: Nice question. I think it's, uh, a, everybody got stuff in their attic. There is stuff dusting there. And the challenge is how to get it out. Now one thing is the word convenient, which is convenient. Your parents or your grandparents, they have stuff at their attic. It's how to get it out the convenient way from your home, put it in a box and get directly paid. Convenient. Like your Caesar salad. You can make your own salad. That's an easy one.

Speaker A: I'm a Caesar salad too.

Speaker C: Exactly. But you can also make it yourself. But you can buy it pre packed or buy, uh, coffee, uh, at Starbucks. So that's one. And the other thing, reuse. That's the heart of a lot. Reuse. There is enough. You can reuse that old camera. There are people liking it. Or that piece of jewelry that you can reuse as a recycled material. There is enough. We don't have to create so much stuff. Crap. If you want to say reuse it, get it to other homes. And that is actually the core of this company. And it also became a little bit the core of Spacebar's reuse stuff in the world.

Speaker A: And right then. So the idea, big idea. And there's so many secondhand businesses now happening and popping. And you read every week about any business doing suddenly kind of well because the market's there. And as you said, there's a desire not to make more things. The founders, how did you know that they were the people that were going to make bring this idea to life and now are doing super well. Right. I mean people may. It's one of those classic, um, it's one of those classic, um, successes you don't realize. And suddenly it pops up above the surface. How did you know that you could believe in those founders?

Speaker C: Um, by having a lot of, A lot of conversations, meeting them, spending time together and create that feeling, the gut. Yes, that was the most important. And I saw how they reacted on challenges. Because it took seven years to make this a success. Seven years, day and night, four times. We had to fire everyone a lot of times.

Speaker A: But you believed.

Speaker C: Oh yes. We helped them all the way through. And they also were very, very resilient. And again, a lot of, uh, the headwinds. But in the end, they cracked the code. They cracked the code. Now it's make it profitable, good for the customers. And now we roll out to six countries in Europe. By the end of the year, we're in 12 countries. It's growing phenomenally. Again, it's very complex and in a way it's also easy. More than, uh, 40,000 people happy, uh, on Trustpilot. But more than a million people we, we helped with this service.

Speaker A: And so, uh, just briefly before I ask you a song choice, uh, just because I want to get the nugget, this resilience that you've seen in these founders, can you learn that hide or is this something that's just innate?

Speaker C: No, you cannot learn. But you can encourage it. You can strengthen.

Speaker A: How do you encourage it?

Speaker C: By giving always other options. By trying to help them see it from the other side. By challenging, by giving connections by in any way support necessary to go to the next intrinsic. It needs to be there that you cannot learn. But to help. It's like with children. Just do the extra mile. Just another just make that love. But also a little bit strictness to make sure they succeed.

Speaker A: You make it sound very simple and I know it's not. It's been lovely talking to you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Just before I let you disappear to go and help the next foundation to bring them together to. To invent another thing. What's your song choice and why have you chosen it?

Speaker C: I like the, uh, Van Morrison. Van Morrison is, uh, something warm. It's sweet, uh, cozy. That's Dutch word. Uh, but also a little bit nostalgic. So a little bit from the past. Um, also a little bit from the future. So I really like that. So this is my, uh, song of choice.

Speaker A: That was Van Morrison with Someone like youe. The songchoice of my business. Shaper today. Hide Hogg Cusp. It's good to have some scars on the back. He spoke about the importance of experience and of, as he put it, seeing a lot when working against the odds and trying to change the world. Hide talked about the gut feeling and how experience trains the gut to know which founders to support despite other people's skepticism. And he spoke about the inspiration he took from the Dutch astronaut and friend Wubbo Ockels to take care of the planet, and how taking care is active and a responsibility that inspired both his space Buzz venture and his decisions on which businesses to support. Great stuff. That's it from Jazz Shapers. Have a lovely weekend.

Speaker B: Jazz Shapers on Jazz FM in partnership with Mishkandaraya. It's business, but it's personal.

Speaker A: We hope you enjoyed that edition of Jazz Shapers. You'll find hundreds more guests available for you to listen to in our archive. To find out more, just search Jazz Shapers and itunes or your favorite podcast platform, or head over to michigon.com jazshapers.