EP 63 - How Can Technology Empower Agents to Support SMEs Better? - Jack Ramsey - NEXT Insurance

Speaker A: The small business insurance market is evolving and at the heart of this evolution is the agent carrier relationship. Empowering agents to serve micro and small businesses more effectively requires more than just technology. It demands a shift in mindset, in tools and in trust. What will truly help agents support small business clients more efficiently? How are digital carriers reshaping traditional workflows? And how do you balance speed to market with building the right product for the field? In this episode of Insurtech Amplified, we talked to Jack Ramsey, VP Agent Channel at Next Insurance about these topics and how to transform the way carriers and agents collaborate. Jack, thank you so much for coming to the show today. I really appreciate it. How are you doing?

Speaker B: I'm doing very well and I'm, um, thrilled to be here. So thank you for giving me a few minutes to chat.

Speaker A: It is our complete pleasure. Okay, let's deal with like one big overriding question before we jump into kind of the details. What's the biggest opportunity in your mind currently to transform how agents and carriers work together to better serve the unique needs of micro and small businesses in

Speaker B: the U.S. well, that is a huge question. Uh, and there's a lot that is in that question, I would say in my experience. And so this is year 34 for me in the insurance business. Starting off as an agent myself had a chance to be a manager in different sales leadership roles over those many years. Um, and one thing that has been true during all that time is agents need help. They are asking for help on a regular basis. And I'm probably my own best example, quite honestly of traditional insurance thinking Having started 34 years ago, only working with large traditional insurance companies until most recently with NEXT Insurance, what I would consider a premier digital insurance carrier in the small business space. And so my own personal experience in the transition of traditional large, very difficult to change and move for a lot of reasons, some, some very appropriate and right reasons to, to thinking in a digital way. Um, the opportunity is to, is to truly help agents be successful. Um, our model today, uh, in serving small businesses, um, has, has changed certainly in the last five to ten years, um, but also in many ways hasn't changed. Small businesses make up the most number of businesses in the US that continues to grow. You know, you're talking over 95% of all businesses are small businesses. Uh, yeah, determining which, you know, how you define that is, you know, open for interpretation there. But most businesses are. And so that hasn't changed and that's not going to change in your future. And the need of agents to serve that Market also exists today like it has many years ago. But how we do it and how we do it to help agents be successful is the big difference. That's what's changed.

Speaker A: Okay, so that's the perfect segue into my first question for you is what specific strategies or tools or tactics have made the biggest difference for your team? And the way NEXT Insurance works with agents when you're trying to support them, particularly when they're trying to serve micro and small businesses more effectively and efficiently.

Speaker B: Yeah, that was quite honestly the biggest moment for me coming to Next Insurance, making that change from 30 plus years traditional insurance to absolutely the opposite of traditional insurance. Um, and what I'll call out is we, um, in the industry too often refer to small business as one bucket. Small business is a range. It includes everyone from the one person micro small business all the way to the low end of middle market. And so some carriers actually will go up to 10, 20, $30 million in revenue accounts and call that small business accounts. So the biggest strategy change or shift that I saw with that was necessary in what we do is to bifurcate or split that out into different small business models. Again, in my prior experience small business was small business. You handled it very much the same way, whether it was a one person shop or a much larger shop. Um, what I quickly learned coming here was we have a responsibility to separate that and say for the small end of small business, I'll call that Microsoft, that can be handled in a more efficient digital, digital manner. Yeah, there's a place for people and a place for, you know, the traditional processes for the larger end of small commercial. Um, but we have to, we have to come to a point where we can behave and treat those different.

Speaker A: Were there other ways? Because look, uh, I worked at big companies my whole life, right. I think I told you this before, but I worked at Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs and now I work at a small company which happens to be my own. But like my thinking has changed almost entirely about like the way business gets done. Maybe it's more in the tactics than in the strategy, if that makes sense. But I'm just wondering how, if there are other ways that your thinking has changed about how business gets done and in particular. Right. Because when you're working at a big company, like you said, sometimes they can't change the way they work. Not because they don't want to, but because of. It's just so hard to get a battleship to like make even the smallest turn.

Speaker B: Right, Right.

Speaker A: But how have your thinking changed particularly when it comes to digital carriers. Because I presume when you're working at a big company, you looked at digital carriers differently than you do today now that you're actually working at one.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The um, and it's an interesting comment you made about how my life as a traditional insurance sales leader then, and traditional insurance companies today may view digital carriers.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And they, they, number one, they don't like to view them as a disruptor because they don't necessarily feel they need to be disrupted. Um, but at the same time they also in many ways think that that model is not, uh, long term. You know, as a traditional insurance company you build a model over in many cases 100 years based on the belief that people are necessary, people are necessary in every step of the process. And you've convinced yourself of that. That I need someone to look at the account, I need someone to investigate the account. And I'm super hip and modern now, so I'll investigate the account through a Google search, uh, and I'll learn about it and I'll make decisions based on good, bad or otherwise about that risk and pricing and underwriting guidelines. And I believe at my core as a traditional insurance carrier that that belongs somewhere in the process. And so the belief that a digital carrier sounds cool, sounds interesting, sounds neat, but probably isn't going to be profitable for the long term and will still come back to the model I have, um, what I learned quickly in coming here, uh, with next insurance is the complete opposite, that there is a place for people. But back to that original question on the change of thinking, this gets to the agency level as well. Use people where people are necessary. Allow technology to solve what it can solve. And your multiple of revenue or your multiple of efficiency isn't 1 plus 1. It's actually 2x or 3x because you can deploy the people where they belong. You can let technology solve what it can solve and free up so much time and so much capability.

Speaker A: So I was actually, I used to talk about this a lot, but I want to bring it up to you just to see if you, if you think it makes sense or if it still makes sense. When I was working at Goldman Sachs, they bought a company called G. Uh, they bought a company, I can't remember what the name of it was, but we actually renamed it to Goldman Sachs Algorithmic Trading. It was just an automated trading and we were feeling the same way back then. But since I was kind of a, uh, technology geek, even though I wasn't a programmer, I could see what was Coming that for the simplest transactions that we did, the technology could make it way more efficient and way more effective than me doing it myself. And I was super happy with that. In this case, I'm almost the agent. Yeah. Because I'm effectuating sales. But for the really complicated trades, we could use those tools, but we still had to manage those tools because the trades themselves were just too complicated. And I presume that that's what you're suggesting in the insurance space too. Right? I just wanted to make an analogy for people so they can understand that it's not just in the insurance industry where this takes place, that for a simple product with not too many contingencies in it, the technology can probably handle it. STP just like straight through. But as soon as it gets to be more complicated, you still may be able to use some of those tools to transfer information or to make payments or do some such thing. But that a human's going to be involved because it just gets too complex. Is that fair?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's fair. And in fact, as I've watched, you know, this transition transformation over the last couple years, um, that's exactly what you see in all the industries outside of insurance. Insurance, you know, many will say is a pretty static, pretty boring, you know, industry that doesn't change a whole lot. Right.

Speaker A: I don't know.

Speaker B: So it's, it is what it is. But that's, um, where, you know, the world is changing around us and we have to make decisions on how to, how to meet those needs.

Speaker A: For sure.

Speaker B: Yeah. Easy examples, um, you know, that we see. So again, back to my time starting as an agent and then getting to this point, um, I've had so many friends who are insurance agents that I talk to on a daily basis. Um, my, my middle son of five kids starting, uh, his insurance agency, uh, as a franchise owner just in July of this year. So I have a lot of people that are tied to the success of the insurance industry. And why I bring that up is they are looking for those efficiencies because they're running a business as well. They are an example of a small business in America, no different than the bakery, no different than the accountant that we're trying to insure. Um, and so they're trying to operate in the same space while at the same time taking care of those small businesses that are their customers. Um, and so an example that I've seen in the largest transition, of course, with next insurance, you can quote, you can issue policies within five minutes, quote, issue buying, done, simple, easy move on to the next account. That's the value of creating revenue. But on the other side of it, you have the efficiency of servicing. So you mentioned as you, Michael, are a, uh, business owner yourself, should you have to wait until my business hours to transact simple service transactions? Right.

Speaker A: No. This drives me crazy. I deal with a company in Canada and their hours like nine to five Canadian times. And if I had known that when I started working with them, I never would have done it. But sorry, go ahead.

Speaker B: Well, and that's what we in the industry have kind of anchored the customer to. So we've created an environment where they have to go to the agent and the agent has to be available and if not, then somebody waits. And so with digital organizations again next being a premier one in that space, what if you could empower the customer to do the transactions themselves? And the most common transaction that they have is in order to do a job, they often have to prove insurance. So they create a certificate of insurance. Agencies have tremendous staff assigned to just doing simple service transactions, including certificates of insurance. So what if instead you could empower the customer to do that work and not because they have to, but because they want to. It's easy, they enjoy it and they can do it on their own schedule. And then you free up uh, the time of those agency staff people to do people focused work that's more applicable to what they need to do in the course of business, um, and get more done for the agency. It's a win win across the whole agent customer ecosystem. And that's where digital plays I think a pivotal role.

Speaker A: So you brought up a really interesting topic for me and I love the fact that your son is entering, one of your sons is actually entering the insurance business, becoming a franchise owner for an agency. This is really great. My guess is at some level using your son as kind of a metaphor for the next generation of insurance agents, that your generation and his generation are going to be different, particularly in the way they use technology. They're probably digitally native. I mean if he's just starting out, he's probably in his twenties.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: But the other thing that you mentioned was the bakery, which I think is really interesting. Another small business. And I'm curious if the baker's son, and I'm putting it in quotes right, because there is a next generation bakery owner as well. As they move into the next stage of their business, are they digitizing as well and becoming more digital savvy? What did I write down? And are uh, their businesses becoming more complex as well? So that it matches the same way that the agencies are actually evolving and developing, if that makes sense. So it's easier for them to now do that business because their POS and everything else that they've set up in their business is now digital too. So it makes more sense to them to do it this way.

Speaker B: Absolutely. I mean, even. Just think of the simplest example of how few of the small businesses accept cash. You go to a restaurant today, most don't even. I mean, they have the ability, of course, but it's all digital payment. Um, and so that simple example of change, um, is now normal. And that's a transition just over the last several years. Um, um, I'll tell you too, uh, please. So my son actually has been in the insurance business now. This is his third year, and he just signed on as the owner of his franchise office location. So that's, that's great. That's. That's his new venture as of July 1st. Um, and in what I've already seen in how he transact business compared to me, you know, I can say 34 years ago as an agent, that's a, That's a long time. But the amount of business he does through texting, the amount of business he does through digital interface with customers would have never even been thought of. Just a few years ago. Him, um, and others like him doing business as an insurance agent with customers, um, is digital focused. So why then should the work he does with a carrier not also be digital focused? Where it can be.

Speaker A: Yes, he's communicating with his clients over text. Whether it's WhatsApp or I don't know what text stuff you guys use in the United States, but a lot of them are actually building in mechanisms to then communicate to other systems. So that ends up being straight through a, give me your policy number, whatever, and it just goes right into some other system. Sorry, I interrupted you.

Speaker B: Right, no. So interesting. Then today, in 2025, um, you as an agent will still interact with some insurance companies by sending a form and waiting for someone to receive that form, do some work on the back end, and in days or even a couple weeks, get back to you with your quote or your answer.

Speaker A: Yeah, that, that's not.

Speaker B: And that still exists. It still exists today.

Speaker A: Wow. So can I ask you this? You mentioned digital payments. So I haven't been in the United States in a while. Right. And I definitely haven't paid for stuff in a while. What's the mechanism, like, the most common, like two or three mechanisms for making these digital payments, and I'LL tell you why I'm thinking about this. In Singapore, there are plenty of shops, and this may surprise you, because I go to Singapore for business all the time. They won't take cash. They will not take the paper currency issued by their own government. Right. So I've actually been in situations where I didn't have my credit card with me. And I pay for everything in Thailand via QR code. Right. So I almost never carry cash here at all. And I literally had to figure out a way to go get. Go get cash to pay the service provider, and then they use their credit card to pay my lunch bill kind of thing. So how does it work in the United States?

Speaker B: Yeah. So in the US Credit card is king. Almost anything is done through a credit card. Um, but. But you can still, you know, ach out of your bank account, you know, debit that way too, but it's a digital payment. Um, what you're seeing more often than not, though, is Apple Pay, and you're even seeing the pay by phone. And funny you should ask that question. I have friends who, who don't even travel with wallets at this point. They just travel with their phone and do everything with their phone. Like, they tap the phone on the device. They. They don't even have their credit cards at this point. So. So again, going from where I've been to where I'm at now, um, a company like Next Credit Card was the single form of payment. We recently added ach for bank debit, direct payments, um, and incoming is Apple Pay. So it's meeting the needs of customers where they are instead of forcing them to accept the model that we have.

Speaker A: I love this. What's the most surprising piece of feedback you get from agents and even from their, Even from their clients. Right. Particularly in the context of your son. Something that wouldn't surprise your son at all, where he would just be like, yeah, dad, this is the way it gets done. But something that would surprise you. And then how did it affect the way, like, you build new products for them or your approach to dealing with them?

Speaker B: Yeah, Uh, I would say the biggest, most significant surprise to me is the comment that you're so easy. The way you do business is so easy that I try you first, and if you say no, then I go somewhere else. Um, and that's just why that stands out to me is because that's not normal. Like, insurance agents don't usually come to an insurance company and say, working with you is so easy. I love it. And that's my first choice. Um, it's an unusual conversation to have. In fact, many of the conversations I've had over my career have been the complete opposite. You make my life difficult. I have to hire new staff just to take care of the things that you've put in my way. And I can't make money, I can't make revenue out of a small business account because of the complexities that you've placed on me. And so it's just such a different perspective.

Speaker A: So let me ask you this. When you talk about enabling all these digital first workflows, right, and you just said like the agents tell you, oh, this looks really easy, it looks easy from the outside, but it must be like super complex on the back end or on what I'll call the inside. Can you just explain some components of this and like what makes it look so easy on the front end but actually it's really complex on the back end. Maybe with an example if you have one.

Speaker B: Yeah. And in fact I'll probably take it a different twist, a different way than maybe even you're asking, um, go for it. So it is truly as easy as they say it is on the front end and the back end. But what that, really, what that has created though is a real conundrum for them because they have designed their agency and designed their staff to meet the needs of most carriers. So when I come to you and I say I have a solution for you for the micro end of small commercial, that will be a quote issue, bind within five minutes, fully digital. It will never refer to an underwriter for questions. There are no follow up documents or after the sale requirements that will bog down your team's time. And by the way, when it's time to service those accounts for your customers, they receive their own self service portal and customers love it. They give us the highest ratings that you could imagine in the industry. They do their own transactions on their own schedule, their own time. They come to you when they need consultation services, but for basic transactions they do it all themselves. And what happens then is you have an agency that may have a staff person that's been with them like me, 34 years in the business, has been with them forever. Um, their biggest fear emerges that, well, now what do I do with Jack? Jack's been the backbone of my agency for 30 years. They've always my certificates for my customers, uh, my customers love them. If I take that off of their shoulders, what are they going to do now? I can't fire them. So now what do I do? And so that Puts them in a position where they have to rethink their business model. They should be doing that anyway because, you know, it's an expensive operation to run an insurance agency with people being the largest expense. It puts him in that position where some of them are truly uncomfortable. I'm really not sure, you know, Jack's going to probably retire in the next two or three years. Maybe I'll just leave it like it is so that they can continue to do what they do. Um, and then we'll think about making changes and doing things different. So it puts them in an interesting thinking perspective that they, they are there.

Speaker A: Were there small, medium sized businesses or even micro businesses in the past that's like simply could not get coverage. Do you know what I mean? And were companies like NEXT kind of just invented is maybe the wrong word, right, but like built to uh, kind of close this coverage gap where before it just wasn't possible because it was either too expensive or they were too remote. Do you know what I mean? Or they uh, didn't have enough information about what kind of coverage they should have and now it's just so much easier to serve them at all these different levels. So that coverage gap is getting closed.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And you actually have two ends of that, that question. So one is for the small business owner, the micro small business owner, you know, they have decided to open a shop or do business. That's what they know. They don't know insurance. They no idea. Oftentimes the insurance experience they have is what someone required them to buy because they want to go to a, they want to do a job. So the person said, you need to prove you have liability insurance. Okay, then I need to go find liability insurance. So they need help understanding risk and understanding how to take care of themselves. Um, and so a company like NEXT stepped in to say there's a gap. How do we fill that gap? Ah, through tailored solutions, super easy to understand that are designed for that unique type of business. And we don't speak insurance jargon. We speak in a language they understand. So they can, they can not only just meet the requirements that someone is imposing on them, but understand they've actually taken care of risk that they face. Now the other side Michael, to that is agents have made it hard because they look at micro, small commercial with an average premium of, of only $1,500 a year and they think about their commission or their compensation and say I actually can't do that. I can't provide consultative conversation or service to them because if I touch it more than once I've lost money. Right, so you've got that competing battle there where the customer needs help, the agent may decide they're not compensated enough to provide the help that they need, so they wipe their hands and walk away and say go somewhere else. Next stepped in and there's others like us, but Next stepped in and said there's a gap, a gap that needs help. And in just again you can uh, as I'm sure you've looked at next and the experience we've had over the last 10 years, only a nine year company, 600,000 customers in just nine years proves and shows the need that's out there and our ability to serve that.

Speaker A: So here's an interesting question on, on that topic actually. And I always like putting this in the context of food because it's something that everybody understands, right? Like if you've never had ice cream before and I introduce vanilla and chocolate, you're like, this is like the most amazing experience in my life. But then if I like introduce strawberry ice cream, you're like, what other stuff can I get? You know what I mean? So like now my whole mindset on dessert has changed. I know it's simplifying it, but I just want to introduce this. Before, these small and M micro sized companies couldn't be served at all, whereas they kind of didn't know what they were missing. But uh, now that they are, what do you think has changed more? Their expectations about what they can and cannot get versus the way agents serve them and understand how they can serve them now because of the efficiencies of a company like next. Does that make sense?

Speaker B: Yeah, it does. And so from the customer perspective I imagine they still have a hard time knowing what they need. So yeah, right. So they, there's certainly more information out that you can do your own research and learn about what you might need. And many companies, including us, have I think done a decent job of putting information out so that you know, if a person wants to do the research on their own, they can. And that gets them pretty uh, far down the road in understanding what the risks are and how to take care of it. Um, but a tremendous number of them don't. They just, they don't have time. They're, like I mentioned before, they're not in the insurance business. So in some cases they really don't care. They want to run their business. Um, so from the agent perspective side, um, one of our fastest growing type of agents we work with are small retail agents that may have one or two people in their office, maybe they're auto and home personal lines focused, but do some commercial to take care of their customers on the side. And so this gets directly to your question of well, how in the world do you help someone like that who doesn't see commercial on a daily basis? They're not experts themselves. And so you create the model, the quoting system, the process that's very intuitive, just like for the customer that walks them through that quote journey and offers guidance that says hey, this type of business usually buys hired a non owned auto recommend that or this type of business. M although I see you only quoted a general liability. Surely they have stuff like they have stuff in their business that needs to be covered as well property, you should recommend that. So providing guidance through that quote journey is a necessary step that an organization like us saw the need for and has filled that gap. Um, I can tell you, but based on my experience, Michael, there's so many that have a quote system that has been the quote system for 15, 20 years.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And it doesn't think that way, it doesn't provide that type of intuitive, you know, walk through thinking. And it relies on the agent to somehow become the expert on their own.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, look, one of the things that we figured out when back when I was at Goldman and even when I was working at UBS was the more information you can give the agent and I'll put myself in those shoes that they don't have to think about, right. Making these recommendations. If you bought this stock, maybe you should sell that one against it or whatever, if I can look at your portfolio, it's not that much of a different conversation. But you're right, if you're insuring this part, but you have all these other goods, you should insure that and it should be an easy conversation to have. But even if the agent hasn't thought about that because one, fundamentally maybe they weren't serving small micro businesses before, but two, there was no mechanism to tell them that, but now technology can allow them to do that. It's just a much better way to do stuff. I want to ask you this too. You said the company's only nine years old and already has 600,000 customers. I would put that in the category of kind of amazing. Um, but these customers must give you feedback. Right? And the agents must get a ton of feedback as well on what they need and they must then give that back to. So there's this loop of information that's going around and round when you're developing new Stuff new things to help both the agents, but also for coverage. How do you balance this like speed to marketing, getting it right? We used to talk about this all the time. Like we would roll out products at Goldman and just test it on our smallest clients.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker A: And get the feedback first. So the faster we got to market, the faster we could test it and we'd give it to our bigger clients after it had been tested. Um, we don't admit that, we didn't admit that a lot back then, but that's essentially what we're doing. Where do you land on this sort of speed to market versus getting it right? Do you know what I mean? How do you balance that out?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And it actually starts with, um, understanding what the need is. And as an example, with those six, um, hundred thousand customers, um, we're blessed in that we are a multi channel distribution organization. Meaning we're not solely direct to consumer, we're not solely through partners and we're not solely through agents. And, and where some agents or some carriers or some might say, you know, that's, that's a little bit scary, you know, if you have direct to consumers, then what does that mean to distributing through agents? You know, is there a competition there? Is there, is there a problem that may be created? But what that has done for us, and frankly I was surprised at this over the last two and a half years, is that gives us access to customers directly. We hear from them on a regular basis about what we're doing. Well, about things that we're missing and things that we maybe don't understand about a certain class of business that they tell us, hey, I need this. Um, we also hear directly from the agents about their operations and what they need as an agent in serving those small business customers. Um, as an example for me in my particular part of the company, I have an agent advisory council that I meet with, uh, every other month. And we use them as design partners specifically for what we're putting together. So we'll say, hey, we're thinking of doing this. Here's option A, option B, option C, we do you think, how would you use it? And maybe none of them are okay. Um, so we use them as design partners to implement things for the market. Um, and we follow their guidance and we put things in place. So all that being said, you then have to make a decision like to your point, do you create something and put it out in the market and then hope for the best? Um, I've never seen anything introduced yet that's perfect, right? No, I've also seen organizations that are paralyzed by, uh, all the possible, what if this happens, that they don't deploy? And so our approach, and this is my thinking as well, is you get sound advice, you act quickly to implement it if there's truly a need, and then you also put yourself in a position to pivot or to make adjustments as necessary. Um, I've also seen that in my career too, that you make the decision to deploy, but you don't have a plan B if it doesn't go well. It just is what it is now. You live with it. So that's a refreshing part of an organization. It's frankly very heavily built off of engineers and data scientists.

Speaker A: Yeah, I was going to ask you. There's got to be a big engineering team there.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So when you deploy something, you know, if it's working as design, fantastic. If it needs to be adjusted, you can real time adjust it. And so you have the, uh, design partners to help you make decisions. You then have them as partners to make sure it works as you planned. And if not, you pivot and you adjust. And, um, again, in the digital space we're in today, it's refreshing to be at an organization that, that has that mindset and makes those kind of decisions and admits if something doesn't go exactly as planned, you fix it and you fix it quickly.

Speaker A: Okay, I'm going to ask you one more thing and then I'm going to let you go. What excites you the most about where small business insurance is headed over the next, like six to seven years?

Speaker B: Well, it's going to keep changing. You know, using my son again as an example, I would have never thought to, to interact with most of my customers by text message. It just wouldn't have been, I wouldn't have thought of it. He's much better at this point in his career than I was at that point in my career. Um, and so small businesses will continue to evolve as well, the things that they need from us as carriers. Um, I mean, think about just since the pandemic, how many businesses have had to, what may have been a traditional storefront now do so much business online. So does the insurance product cover the online experience? It needs to. And today in a way that it probably didn't need to a few years ago. Um, you know, the number of customers that come into a storefront has a direct impact on the liability you face having a storefront.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure.

Speaker B: What if all of a sudden now you have 20% less customers that come in your doors and transact by phone or by online. Right. Your insurance needs change. And so what I see over the next, probably not even years, but year, um, businesses are going to change. The type of insurance needs that they have are going to change. And companies need to be prepared to follow that. Um, I'll close my part with this. I've watched over my career, so many really strong, reputable, strong insurance companies, um, decide that this is the way things just have to be. Agents are forced to accept it and deal with it. Customers are expected to accept and deal with it, but it doesn't have to be that way. And so I think that the future is for the companies that talk to understand and meet the needs of the agents and the customers and make their products and services based on that, not based on the fact that we've been around for 100 years.

Speaker A: I like it. Jack Ramsey, VP agent, shout out to Next Insurance. Thank you so much for coming and doing this today. I really appreciate your time.

Speaker B: Thank you for the time. Michael, great talking to you.