Mike Lane- CEO and Founder- Fluency

1 - > SPEAKER_01: Um welcome to the latest episode of Inspiring 2 - > Futures. 3 - > Um, my guest today, Mike Lane, CEO, uh founder of Fluency. 4 - > Welcome to the pod from uh Sunny Vermont. 5 - > I I believe Sun has finally hit Vermont.

6 - > SPEAKER_03: It is. 7 - > Uh, thanks for having me. 8 - > SPEAKER_01: That's great. 9 - > Um So you you you started in this in uh the internet business 10 - > kind of way back, right?

11 - > Uh going obviously dealer.com, but what we what was happening 12 - > before dealer.com? 13 - > What what got you into into the world of the internet?

14 - > SPEAKER_03: Into the world of the internet. 15 - > Well, I graduated college in 1997, um, which you know my 16 - > eight-year-old reminds me is last century, uh, which is fine. 17 - > Uh, but but what did you study at college? 18 - > Uh well I started as an environmental engineer and then 19 - > went to civil engineering and then really got into engineering 20 - > management.

21 - > SPEAKER_01: Um so what was your kind of so you could go into 22 - > college, what did you kind of see yourself doing? 23 - > You're an environmental engineer. 24 - > What what was your kind of dream? 25 - > Or or was it were you just like that?

26 - > Sounds interesting. 27 - > SPEAKER_03: I'll work it out when I when I yeah, more of the 28 - > latter. 29 - > Yeah, it's just interesting. 30 - > Like I did no idea I was a lost soul, I would say, and like uh 31 - > career-wise on where I wanted to go.

32 - > But my senior year of college, I really got into like took a 33 - > bunch of programming classes, okay. 34 - > Uh, and also took a lot of marketing classes, and that 35 - > really like was something I was for the first time like 36 - > interested in showing up to class on time and doing all the 37 - > work, uh, and really being engaged in that sort of thing. 38 - > Um, and just learning like the basics of programming, and then 39 - > the internet was happening then, like real time and like web 40 - > development.

41 - > I really just got into um and you know, was able to produce 42 - > and learn that skill set uh and just loved it. 43 - > I loved the engagement, like you could create something out of 44 - > nothing, yeah, and put it on a screen, and people can interact 45 - > with that. 46 - > That's like something that you just I never had like you know, 47 - > yeah, experience with, and that kind of changed my trajectory of 48 - > my life at that point in time. 49 - > When I finished college, I ended up in Boston working for like a 50 - > consulting company, and then quickly realized that people 51 - > just need these types of solutions, business.

52 - > SPEAKER_01: When only so when was Netscape like when did 53 - > Netscape come out? 54 - > 90 about that time, right? 55 - > SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah, Netscape, you had Lycos, Alta Vista, like 56 - > all these ancient uh dead engine search engines uh that were out 57 - > there, and I just really loved that that space, and you know, 58 - > really making a user experience. 59 - > The whole term user experience didn't even exist then.

60 - > SPEAKER_01: So um why'd you pick a consulting company in Boston? 61 - > SPEAKER_03: Uh it's where I could get hired and the paid 62 - > well, is really how it came came down to be. 63 - > But we worked on some super cool projects, yeah, some larger 64 - > companies. 65 - > SPEAKER_01: Like so, like digitizing, building web, 66 - > building the internet.

67 - > Is that what job was? 68 - > SPEAKER_03: One of them was like in the banking industry, and 69 - > that you know, they had developers, right? 70 - > And developers have their uh personalities, and then they had 71 - > business people that you know had an idea of like where they 72 - > wanted to like steer this business opportunity, and they 73 - > couldn't talk to each other. 74 - > So just sitting with like the idea folks and mapping out 75 - > visually like what you know experience would look like was 76 - > something the developers needed to understand like what they 77 - > were building towards, and that's where I really like got 78 - > got on in the beginning.

79 - > SPEAKER_01: And how long did you stick around? 80 - > SPEAKER_03: Oh, that was just a couple of years-ish thing, 81 - > because then I got the entrepreneurial bug. 82 - > SPEAKER_01: Where did that come? 83 - > Where did the bug come from?

84 - > SPEAKER_03: Uh, I think it came from like seeing folks with good 85 - > ideas and programmers and just being like, Well, I have good 86 - > ideas too. 87 - > Uh, and we know programming, and I had lots of friends that were 88 - > programmers, and looking at the business model and the evolution 89 - > of the space, we basically were like, we could just do this. 90 - > Um, we were young, naive enough uh at that time. 91 - > Uh, and a few of my friends that I was working with in Boston, 92 - > uh, and then someone here in Vermont, we ended up like 93 - > starting GLA.

com up in like so co how did that you you had how 94 - > did you get that idea? 95 - > SPEAKER_01: How did I mean what was was it a conversation? 96 - > Was it did you look at different different opportunities and then 97 - > pick that one? 98 - > Or how did that come about?

99 - > SPEAKER_03: It started because I grew up here in Vermont. 100 - > Uh I came, I was coming home to visit my parents, but I was 101 - > driving my college car still in Boston. 102 - > And that college car, when I bought it, the odometer had 103 - > stopped a year before I bought it at like 128,000 miles. 104 - > And I drove that thing for five years.

105 - > Uh, and who I it probably had 200,000 miles on it. 106 - > SPEAKER_01: No one cars they can, it's got to be a Volvo or 107 - > something. 108 - > SPEAKER_03: It was a Volkswagen Jetta. 109 - > Um yeah, I was coming home and I needed to like find a 110 - > replacement car, and I shopped online naturally.

111 - > I was like, I'll just stop and see like what's on the way. 112 - > And I went to this one website uh called Earth Cars in 113 - > Williston, Vermont, and they had they were merchandising cars, 114 - > they had photos, like full photos, like all the 115 - > description. 116 - > And and back then that wasn't that didn't happen. 117 - > Like you were lucky to have a listing that was dated of what 118 - > the inventory was, and maybe one out of a hundred dealers had 119 - > some photos of a car, but every car had photos on it, like 120 - > multiple photos, had all the information, and it drew me into 121 - > the dealership.

122 - > Um, and did you hire the did you hire the person who did it? 123 - > Oh, well, we had a conversation with the uh one of the owners, 124 - > and they basically said, Well, I built this, I think car dealers, 125 - > this is how like cars should be like advertised and marketed 126 - > online. 127 - > And I was like, I'm in this space, that's exactly how it's 128 - > supposed to be done. 129 - > Yeah, so we talked about like you know, working with him to 130 - > like build a system to do that.

131 - > But after a few months of like doing that, we basically said, 132 - > This is a business, we should just Was everyone was everyone 133 - > working, or did you quit the jobs, or what was it? 134 - > What's we all decided to quit our jobs and just start this 135 - > company? 136 - > Yeah, because we were all working, yeah. 137 - > We said this is a better idea if we if we're gonna take a shot at 138 - > something, this is a good idea to go take a shot at, and then 139 - > we packed all our stuff up in Boston to the biggest U-Haul.

140 - > I remember we're trying to get the door shut, pushing the last 141 - > mattress in there, like you need to go in four more inches, like 142 - > ramming our shoulders into it, uh, to pull the U-Haul shot, and 143 - > then drove, and we all lived together in the same house and 144 - > essentially worked a hundred hours a week for oh, this is a 145 - > classic Silicon Valley kind of building living dorm style. 146 - > SPEAKER_01: Oh, totally, like friends 18 hours days. 147 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, friend, friends and family rounds, 148 - > hardly paid ourselves type situation, just to like uh get 149 - > the business off the ground and figure out uh what was the what 150 - > was so you so how long did it take to build a a prototype that 151 - > of what to show people that it didn't take too long to get the 152 - > base uh system up because you're just building like a website, 153 - > but we ended up over time building like our own CMS 154 - > platform.

155 - > Um that that would be a good idea. 156 - > SPEAKER_01: What was the biggest like what were what were kind of 157 - > some of the biggest like I mean, obviously it's one thing having 158 - > a great idea, and it's the other thing like making sure the rest 159 - > of the world that you need to see it as a great idea gets it 160 - > right? 161 - > Yeah, it's like there's two different things. 162 - > There's like you see the world, and it's like and then you've 163 - > got these stuck in the mud, old school dealers.

164 - > They're like, What so so it was the selling was with the selling 165 - > of it was pretty tough? 166 - > SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, I remember the first two clients, they 167 - > couldn't be more diverse from each other, right? 168 - > One was Lexus of Westminster and Westminster, California, like so 169 - > things like marble. 170 - > SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, right.

171 - > SPEAKER_03: Um like a Southern California Lexus deal, yeah. 172 - > So Cal dealer, beautiful. 173 - > Like they wanted they wanted a custom experience, they knew 174 - > they needed the internet, they were like in it, right? 175 - > And then the second client was uh Greensboro Garage in 176 - > Greensboro, Vermont.

177 - > And you've never heard of that. 178 - > Um, it's down two dirt roads, right? 179 - > Dirt parking lot, and that's that's the second client. 180 - > And we went up there uh because they were in Vermont, we're 181 - > like, we'll just go up there to be a really cool experience.

182 - > We got there, they were taking their first computer they ever 183 - > had out of the box. 184 - > So uh like they didn't understand like the concept of a 185 - > mouse. 186 - > Like, what do you do when it gets to the edge of the desk? 187 - > Like you just pick it up, like that's where we started.

188 - > Um, and in that same like time period, we brought both of those 189 - > people completely online um with with their new uh web experience 190 - > web website. 191 - > And the the whole premise of this you gotta make it easy, 192 - > right? 193 - > We made it super easy back then. 194 - > SPEAKER_01: They gotta put the inventory in, they gotta have 195 - > the they they they gotta manage the thing on a like a daily 196 - > basis because otherwise it's useless.

197 - > And then so you get these two clients, and then does it 198 - > slightly snowballing, or do you are you waiting for like the 199 - > phone to ring? 200 - > SPEAKER_03: Or no, it's a slog. 201 - > Yeah, it's a log. 202 - > It was a slog in the early days, but the we built such good 203 - > websites that the dealerships down the road, because the the 204 - > first thing dealerships are competitive pressure, right?

205 - > SPEAKER_01: They'd say they so well exactly right it's like 206 - > having it's like having a satellite dish on your roof, and 207 - > then everyone in the neighborhood or a solar panel, 208 - > like everyone gets one, right? 209 - > It's like the word of mouth in the community. 210 - > Okay, we gotta if if we don't get this, we're in trouble. 211 - > So they they'd ask around and like who builds it, and they 212 - > wouldn't even ask around.

213 - > SPEAKER_03: We put our logo right on the bottom of the 214 - > website. 215 - > So when a curriculum got a new website that looked awesome, the 216 - > first thing they wanted to do was shout it out to the world. 217 - > So naturally, back then they would take out a newspaper ad to 218 - > advertise their website, right? 219 - > Uh, they'd be like, come see our Honda dealership, uh, and then 220 - > the Acura dealership down the road would be like, Whoa, theirs 221 - > is way better.

222 - > My ego will not allow that. 223 - > So then they would call us, and that kind of like helped to 224 - > build that momentum in the business. 225 - > SPEAKER_01: And how did you did you have like a was it a 226 - > challenge of like scaling up and hiring people, or did the or you 227 - > always do you always manage that maybe to manage that? 228 - > We had to learn it.

229 - > SPEAKER_03: We were young, we didn't have that all that 230 - > experience that other orgs had. 231 - > We we had to figure all that out. 232 - > Um, and that's really what I enjoyed about one of the most 233 - > enjoyable things about like growing a business is there's 234 - > always something new to like figure out in that space. 235 - > Problem solving.

236 - > Yeah, problem solving. 237 - > How do you scale teams? 238 - > How do you scale systems? 239 - > How do you stay in front of it?

240 - > You know, you got to document something, but you're not 241 - > documenting it for yourself, you're documenting it for the 242 - > next hundred employees. 243 - > And how does that stay flexible and and stay updated? 244 - > SPEAKER_01: So you would what would you spend uh around a 245 - > decade doing this, or is it less less than that? 246 - > SPEAKER_03: 16 years.

247 - > SPEAKER_01: 16 years. 248 - > SPEAKER_03: So 16 years building this business, building and 249 - > growing that business, and we sold it in 2014. 250 - > SPEAKER_01: Wow. 251 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah.

252 - > SPEAKER_01: But how many um so that's like 16 years is like 253 - > that's a decent amount of time. 254 - > And was that you became did does that and you be? 255 - > I mean, obviously there were lots of people doing this, but 256 - > did you became the dominant player? 257 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, we grew that, became a dominant player for 258 - > sure in in the automotive space, providing services like it was 259 - > not only websites, we did inventory management, lead 260 - > management, CRM tools, um, and then got into digital 261 - > advertising too.

262 - > Yeah, uh SEO services, manage like content services, how do 263 - > you build creative stuff, put that on the website? 264 - > SPEAKER_01: Well, so the so your revenue model was like a dealer 265 - > would pay you like a a subscription, like a monthly 266 - > there'd be a monthly bill for the web services, and there'd be 267 - > all the add-ons according to what services you were providing 268 - > them. 269 - > That's kind of what the model is. 270 - > Yeah, and and they rarely rarely canceled, right?

271 - > I mean, it was just it was just kind of like the cost of doing 272 - > business. 273 - > SPEAKER_03: It was cost of doing business, but but competitors 274 - > came into the space. 275 - > Um players had to up their game, and then new players came in. 276 - > So and yeah, you always lose a little bit here, but we're 277 - > always we kept growing.

278 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, net net, it kept growing. 279 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 280 - > SPEAKER_01: Um, so then 2014 comes along. 281 - > Um, were you looking to sell the business, or were you surprised, 282 - > or someone, how did that work out?

283 - > SPEAKER_03: We we had been approached several times over 284 - > the years, um, but it was never the right partner, the right 285 - > dollar amount, or the right time. 286 - > And then in 2014, all those things like came together, and 287 - > we you know, after 16 years, we're like, okay, now is that 288 - > moment, right? 289 - > Uh, and then we just knew it and it was the right deal. 290 - > SPEAKER_01: Were all the or your the original polynomials still 291 - > in the business?

292 - > So people are kind of like left in no, all all the founders 293 - > still worked. 294 - > People you you got into the U-Hole van with yep. 295 - > SPEAKER_03: Set up still work there, yep. 296 - > Oh, that's cool.

297 - > That's really cool, right? 298 - > Yeah, it was super cool. 299 - > Like we went on the entire ride together, and then there were I 300 - > forget exactly how many people, 700 something employees at that 301 - > point in time. 302 - > So we like grew that business pretty substantially.

303 - > SPEAKER_01: It's amazing. 304 - > So what did you do when you what what was your reaction when you 305 - > sold it? 306 - > Was it like um I need to take a year whole vacation and and 307 - > rest? 308 - > Did you need or did you need to like take it take a take time 309 - > out?

310 - > SPEAKER_03: No, uh, I mean, I took a few weeks off, I think, 311 - > uh, you know, earned vacation. 312 - > But then I was gonna basically uh write it out and say see what 313 - > happens. 314 - > Like, how is this gonna go? 315 - > Under the pretense of like I don't have to stay, but I don't 316 - > have to leave either.

317 - > Like, let's just see how this goes. 318 - > SPEAKER_01: And maybe your your new owner was Cox automotive, 319 - > like that they were the company that bought you, right? 320 - > Is that right? 321 - > SPEAKER_03: It's actually dealer track uh and they built 322 - > financial service, did like all the financial services and 323 - > tooling for the industry.

324 - > We did like the marketing, so like those two things were came 325 - > dealers needed together, right? 326 - > A dealer management system, and then a year later, Cox 327 - > Automotive came and bought the combined entity as well. 328 - > SPEAKER_01: Okay, so now you start you stuck around through 329 - > that like uh merger of those two organizations, just the just 330 - > just for the dealer track. 331 - > SPEAKER_03: I stuck around like 10 months, and then I left and 332 - > it was like six months later, not even six months later, is 333 - > that Cox bought the whole thing?

334 - > Wow, but yeah, we it started growing rapidly, right? 335 - > We go from like a 700-person company you made, which is good, 336 - > and then suddenly we're 2800 people, right? 337 - > And then Cox is like a tens of thousands, 30,000 like type 338 - > organization, and you're like, that's very different from when 339 - > started a company with a few people, a handful of people, and 340 - > that's not and that was like one of the reasons I wanted to be an 341 - > entrepreneur too, is like I wanted to like I like that 342 - > smaller, intimate, like yeah, building something building 343 - > something with a group of people, yeah.

344 - > It's fast, it's less corporate. 345 - > SPEAKER_01: So you're um you stick around for 10 months, then 346 - > you then you quit, and what happens then? 347 - > SPEAKER_03: Uh picked up a hammer, did a bunch of 348 - > remodeling of my house things, like use my hands, not on a 349 - > keyboard, but like the physical worlds, um, built a barn, uh, 350 - > did some nonprofit work for uh some nonprofits uh I work with, 351 - > and yeah, walked around the woods, did a whole bunch of life 352 - > stuff.

353 - > SPEAKER_01: Is your are you uh your is your family like 354 - > multi-generational, like Vermonters? 355 - > SPEAKER_03: Is it is it like something you are in 356 - > multi-generational, like to be considered like Bonner, you need 357 - > to have like seven generations of Vermonters. 358 - > I don't have that deep uh, but yes, multiple generations of 359 - > Vermont uh here for sure. 360 - > SPEAKER_01: And it's sort of a characteristic about uh 361 - > Vermont's way.

362 - > There's a sort of like there's some DNA, you know, you you go 363 - > through you like sort of like um shared hardship winter, you 364 - > know, you you need someone who's gonna be able to like pull you 365 - > out of your driveway when there's five foot of snow, yeah, 366 - > when the power goes out. 367 - > It's sort of like a is a sort of a camaraderie and a resilience 368 - > of of of within communities up there, right? 369 - > SPEAKER_03: Oh, totally, like take care of each other.

370 - > Yeah, expected to know how to split wood at the same time. 371 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's yeah, because like you know, it's like 372 - > it's it's not for it's not for the soft up there, right? 373 - > You know, you gotta you you gotta do a lot of your things 374 - > yourself and nature nature has a way of like um you know making 375 - > messes of uh of best laid plans, right? 376 - > SPEAKER_03: You know, no, exactly.

377 - > Sometimes it snows it snows when you don't expect it. 378 - > SPEAKER_01: Or it does your roof gets damaged, or you know, and 379 - > and and and you don't have like you don't have huge 380 - > infrastructure. 381 - > People are like distributed around, you don't have this much 382 - > also infrastructure. 383 - > Uh so yeah, it's like living I and I've been up there a few 384 - > times about it.

385 - > Um in fact my dog was bred bred up um right on the Canadian 386 - > border up there. 387 - > SPEAKER_03: That that does not surprise me at all. 388 - > SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 389 - > SPEAKER_03: That sounds right.

390 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, on a on a little uh like a turkey farm. 391 - > It's just like beautiful up there. 392 - > It's it's like another another world. 393 - > So yeah, I can see it.

394 - > SPEAKER_03: It is, and even Burlington here where I'm I am 395 - > right now is the largest city in Vermont, right? 396 - > It's like 40,000 people. 397 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly. 398 - > SPEAKER_03: Tiny, it's a town in many other areas.

399 - > SPEAKER_01: It was your c was the company head headquartered 400 - > in Burlington then? 401 - > SPEAKER_03: Dealer.com was, yes. 402 - > Yeah, it was, yeah.

403 - > SPEAKER_01: So you you you you take a sabbatical, you you get 404 - > you work at your house, you build a house, you you you know, 405 - > you help in the community, and then you get bored. 406 - > SPEAKER_03: Get bored, yeah. 407 - > I was, you know, you're at that point where you're like, I I'm 408 - > not done working, like what am I going to do? 409 - > And then one day I walked in on my current founders, uh, 410 - > co-founders here at Fluency, when they had that same itch 411 - > that I had.

412 - > And they were uh did you know those guys or did you knew them 413 - > before or you had a yeah, they were they all they they worked 414 - > uh and and they're all friends too, uh at dealer.com together. 415 - > I hired Scott he was 19. 416 - > Right uh at dealer.

com and we like we did all the tests, 417 - > they're like tech support together, like carry the cell 418 - > phone around, the bat phone for after hours support. 419 - > Um and you know, we've worked together for years in different 420 - > areas of the business. 421 - > SPEAKER_01: So they came, they said we've got an idea, you 422 - > would you want to come back and help us? 423 - > Does that come back?

424 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there was like you know, uh larger companies 425 - > like restructure and they had an opportunity to step away from 426 - > that business, and they wanted to do they basically said, like, 427 - > if there's any point in our lives where we know enough to go 428 - > do something, not the start a company when you're 23 or 24 429 - > years old with the naivety like to just power through it, but 430 - > like have the the the wherewithal and like the 431 - > technical capabilities to like go execute, you know, you're at 432 - > that age, we have that enough experience, right?

433 - > And they had that edge too. 434 - > And then I ran into them. 435 - > Uh, you know, they were meeting in a small restaurant near the 436 - > airport at a hotel that no one would ever run into them. 437 - > And I just happened to be in that same hotel at like 7:30 in 438 - > the morning, and they were like, What are you doing here?

439 - > And I was like, What are you doing here? 440 - > Uh and I was there for a meeting, uh, because I was 441 - > trying to help some uh government folks understand uh 442 - > just uh education of the technical uh landscape in 443 - > Vermont. 444 - > Uh and they were having a meeting there that day, that 445 - > morning as well. 446 - > And I was like, I gotta go to this meeting, but whatever 447 - > you're doing, I want in.

448 - > And so I talked to them after, and they're like, get the itch 449 - > uh to go do it. 450 - > And I'm like, I got the itch. 451 - > Um so we spent the next several months talking and just 452 - > analyzing business plans and models, like knowing what we 453 - > know today, right? 454 - > How would we approach the world and what how would we do that?

455 - > What would we what would we tackle and make a great 456 - > business? 457 - > And that's where we came up over and over back to this this model 458 - > of what fluency is. 459 - > SPEAKER_01: Which which describe the describe the model that you 460 - > uh you had then. 461 - > SPEAKER_03: What was yeah, the the the model essentially is 462 - > like if you look at the world of digital advertising and digital 463 - > advertising execution, right?

464 - > Uh everyone wants to believe it's getting easier and easier 465 - > to do things. 466 - > And that is true for a certain aspect, right? 467 - > Even today, if like you want to make a creative piece, a video, 468 - > short video, it is easier today than it was a year ago, than it 469 - > was five years ago. 470 - > But when you're a strategist like trying to execute and do 471 - > the hard lift of what digital advertising execution, right?

472 - > You gotta go in and do that on Google, and you gotta go do that 473 - > on uh in Meta, and you gotta go do that now on TikTok and then 474 - > Trade Desk, right? 475 - > Before in the early Earlier days of digital advertising, it was 476 - > I'm gonna go do something on Google, maybe I'll do some stuff 477 - > on Microsoft, right? 478 - > The old Bing days, and like it started small and that was easy, 479 - > but now that same team had to go do that on Facebook. 480 - > That is almost double the work that they had to do, and more 481 - > channels, more channels, and like that concept.

482 - > And then if you start looking at larger agencies or brands that 483 - > do this at scale, they essentially have teams that do 484 - > that, and those teams are completely underwater, and 485 - > especially on the agency side, right? 486 - > Agencies only charge a certain percentage usually of media that 487 - > goes through, and that varies based on industry complexity, 488 - > right? 489 - > But call that like you know, average like 15 to 25 percent uh 490 - > on top of media, right?

491 - > But if you're managing small accounts, especially small 492 - > accounts, say they only have a thousand dollar budget, right? 493 - > If you're even if you're taking 20%, like that's$200 of labor a 494 - > month. 495 - > Like that gets burned up in seconds. 496 - > Um, when you start adding people, chasing for phone calls 497 - > or data from a client, software and operational costs, right?

498 - > That's not enough to like sustain that. 499 - > And then you gotta do meta and like all these other channels. 500 - > So the complexity goes up dramatically, especially for 501 - > agencies. 502 - > And then on the other side, on the brand side, brands spent you 503 - > know a decade, right, building and getting their data organized 504 - > because data was going to be the new currency, and everyone knew 505 - > that.

506 - > Like, how do I get my data organized? 507 - > And then then they get it organized in their new data 508 - > warehouse, data lake, whatever you want to call it, right? 509 - > It was the next question is like, how do I use that in my 510 - > advertising? 511 - > And I want audiences generated, I want inventory updated, real 512 - > time, like linked to my advertising.

513 - > All these things become very, very complex. 514 - > And there's either point solutions you could do. 515 - > So the concept of fluency was like, we're gonna take all that 516 - > complexity and make it very simple and build an operating 517 - > system that allows you to pull in all that data. 518 - > It's gonna allow you to build business logic so you can do the 519 - > things uh that you would typically spend eight hours 520 - > setting up a campaign in Google and Meta and on Microsoft.

521 - > Uh, that would take you all day, and it's gonna be done in 522 - > seconds. 523 - > It should be push button at this point. 524 - > There's APIs for that. 525 - > Um, and you're just taking the data from your CRM tool or your 526 - > ERP system that has name, address, phone number, all the 527 - > things, the URLs, and you're taking that in and setting up 528 - > the account at Google instead of cutting and pasting it over 529 - > there, right?

530 - > And then you have campaigns, you have strategies uh called like 531 - > playbooks. 532 - > I want to do this with this media plan. 533 - > I need to execute it this way. 534 - > Be like, okay, you can program that logic.

535 - > SPEAKER_01: So when you started, what did you build your user 536 - > experience based on? 537 - > What was your who were your users? 538 - > Did you have like pilots? 539 - > Did you have beta testers?

540 - > Did you we did? 541 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah. 542 - > I mean, we had we had a lot of experience too, right? 543 - > At dealer.

com, we did, I mean, we managed billions of dollars 544 - > of advertising. 545 - > SPEAKER_01: Uh so you're already kind of you've basically taken 546 - > the knowledge base that you had in the single vertical of did of 547 - > dealers and expanding it beyond beyond that vertical, right? 548 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the concept, yeah. 549 - > So a dealer, like we were one of the very few businesses that 550 - > built its own technology stacks, um, and then executed and scaled 551 - > that and ran billions of dollars of digital advertising through 552 - > it.

553 - > But that was like one business, one data set, um, one vertical, 554 - > right? 555 - > It was so it was very finite. 556 - > It had didn't have to have a lot of the flexibility of like a 557 - > platform, but it was also like purpose built. 558 - > And when you want to build an operating system, right, it's 559 - > gotta be how the users want to execute their thing on that.

560 - > So it's a different beast, different approach, but some of 561 - > the fundamentals of like how do you take mass data, how do you 562 - > like build uh a way for them? 563 - > And we just went to work and executed on uh just building a 564 - > whole new tool set on like how you could like build that 565 - > business logic, how you can execute on that, how you can 566 - > like use APIs in a different way to modernize uh in a very modern 567 - > tech stack um that can transact billions of times a day against 568 - > APIs at on a limited scale.

569 - > So different approach. 570 - > SPEAKER_01: So your typical your your um your client, your user 571 - > is a media strategist, like a 27, 28-year-old media strategist 572 - > sitting in front of a screen helping like plan, optimize 573 - > client campaigns, and then your buyer is uh the head of media, 574 - > uh the CEO, the president of the agency. 575 - > Yep. 576 - > And then on the brand side, maybe like someone like in CMO 577 - > procurement, exactly could be any, could be all kinds of 578 - > people.

579 - > SPEAKER_03: Could be all kinds of people depending on the brand 580 - > and how they're set up. 581 - > Um, but yeah, going through like corporate purchasing um is 582 - > always interesting. 583 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 584 - > SPEAKER_03: Uh but but yeah, essentially like that you you 585 - > nailed it.

586 - > The at the end user at the end of the day is the person in 587 - > there trying to execute the advertising. 588 - > SPEAKER_01: So you seem you know since you've been in this 589 - > business, like you now, you're now um what are you decade? 590 - > SPEAKER_03: Eight years in, yeah. 591 - > SPEAKER_01: Eight years into this business.

592 - > Yeah, and there's been a lot of changes in this in in this 593 - > landscape alone, right? 594 - > I mean, you didn't you didn't have TikTok at the beginning. 595 - > Yeah, uh you got TikTok added, you've got Meta telling everyone 596 - > you don't need anything, just come to us and we'll do 597 - > everything, we'll make the ads for you. 598 - > Yeah, right.

599 - > And so the self-service part has gone. 600 - > We've seen YouTube go from like something on the to become the 601 - > most popular or the largest most watched platform, video 602 - > platform, um, in it in the past decade. 603 - > So you've you've had you've had a lot of changes, and then 604 - > you've got agencies struggling with like margins and 605 - > competition and you know, they've gone from AOR 606 - > relationships where they had uh recurring revenues to projects 607 - > where you know there is no recurring revenue.

608 - > And how do they how can they justify paying you know a 609 - > monthly subscription for a product that they they used to 610 - > have six clients on it and now there's they've got two. 611 - > So all these dynamics have changed, right? 612 - > SPEAKER_03: Totally changed. 613 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

614 - > What would you care what would you characterize as the big like 615 - > in the last few years? 616 - > What do you characterize as the biggest changes we've seen the 617 - > digital advertising marketplace? 618 - > SPEAKER_03: The the the biggest changes I see are the absolute 619 - > need to get away from how it was done before. 620 - > unknown: Right?

621 - > SPEAKER_03: Because AI's influence that. 622 - > But the fundamental base of like what people are looking for has 623 - > not changed. 624 - > Right? 625 - > They want to be able to manage uh the media, whether your brand 626 - > or um you know an agency.

627 - > Like I need to be able to activate my data, I need to be 628 - > able to follow media plans, I need to be able to like update 629 - > those media plans, I need to be able to like set up accounts 630 - > efficiently, optimize efficiently, get all my 631 - > reporting back, and I need to do that as efficiently as possible. 632 - > SPEAKER_01: Um where do where do you where where do you stand on 633 - > the measurement piece? 634 - > SPEAKER_03: The measurement piece? 635 - > Uh I mean we we pull down all the reporting and like unify 636 - > that into like one spot for all the channels for our clients.

637 - > SPEAKER_01: So your media strategists can run uh a 638 - > performance report direct from their desktop using your yeah, 639 - > right in the software. 640 - > SPEAKER_03: You can like pull down all and and look at all 641 - > performance, you can put guardrails on because the data 642 - > is like pulled down every single day, right? 643 - > You can get up in the morning and say, like, you know, create 644 - > agents. 645 - > Now you can create agents and say, like, if anything goes 646 - > outside these guardrails, let me know right away.

647 - > Um, and now we recommend like what you can do to correct that, 648 - > right? 649 - > There's a no spend on meta yesterday. 650 - > Be like, tell me why. 651 - > Like, I don't need to go dig anymore, right?

652 - > There's common reasons. 653 - > SPEAKER_01: So people are you so you're expanding your kind of 654 - > workforce through the agents who are helping you out. 655 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's the whole like promise, right? 656 - > Of AI is to like give me superpowers.

657 - > And we've been writing agents that's essentially the basis of 658 - > all our platforms since we started this business. 659 - > But now those agents are even smarter because you can 660 - > customize them more, right? 661 - > You can have them build reports better, you can have them do 662 - > unique analysis real time. 663 - > I can get you an answer to anything on your portfolio just 664 - > by yeah, talking to the software now.

665 - > SPEAKER_01: So earlier this week, Publicist bought live 666 - > ramp. 667 - > unknown: Yeah. 668 - > SPEAKER_01: Is that a game changer? 669 - > SPEAKER_03: It's interesting, move, but not surprised, right?

670 - > Um there is this race, especially like the hold codes, 671 - > right, to like establish themselves a unique value prop. 672 - > And that right is just part of their story, it looks like. 673 - > SPEAKER_01: Well, they're that they're trying to like they're 674 - > trying to become they're trying to say to clients, give us all 675 - > your data, and we'll manage your data, and we'll we'll plan, buy, 676 - > execute, create everything for you. 677 - > We have the data, the data intelligence through Epsilon, we 678 - > have you know, live ramp.

679 - > So we have all the pieces and you know, trust us to do it. 680 - > Is that kind of what you're hearing? 681 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly. 682 - > Because like you know, the question we get from brands all 683 - > the time is like, I don't know what my agency is doing anymore, 684 - > right?

685 - > They can't activate my data, or they're not like like getting 686 - > the audience from here and like applying them at scale to my 687 - > comp very complex like strategies I want to run, right? 688 - > SPEAKER_01: Just explain, just explain that it's a kind of a 689 - > pretty profound statement. 690 - > You just said uh clients are saying they don't know what 691 - > their agencies are doing, right? 692 - > SPEAKER_03: I mean, this isn't new, like everyone.

693 - > SPEAKER_01: Oh, sure, yeah. 694 - > I'm just like I'm just interested in your the value of 695 - > their agency, right? 696 - > SPEAKER_03: And the agencies, right? 697 - > When you go when you go start go looking at like talk to Google 698 - > or Meta, they're like, you know, they're saying to folks too, 699 - > like, hey, you can just do this yourself, just log into Meta and 700 - > point your website, and we'll help you build creative.

701 - > Yeah, and you know, the agency's value prop has to evolve as as 702 - > this moves forward, which a lot of agencies are working on that, 703 - > and you see that I think with this acquisition, too, is like 704 - > they're trying to solidify a value prop. 705 - > You know, all the agencies, the hold codes especially, are 706 - > building their story. 707 - > SPEAKER_01: Um, in their whole like agencies, there's a kind of 708 - > a weird thing right now because it's like there's 85,000, 709 - > depending on who you talk to, there's like 55,000 or 85,000 710 - > agencies, right?

711 - > So there's a massive long tail. 712 - > Like the the holding codes actually represent in numbers, 713 - > like a very small proportion. 714 - > So there's a lot of like, I mean, mom and pop agencies, 715 - > right? 716 - > Um, and they don't have the deals with Library, they don't 717 - > have, but they have some local clients that want them buying 718 - > media.

719 - > And so is that is that where you see kind of in terms of your 720 - > market, how do you how do you see your kind of like your 721 - > classic agency president? 722 - > What type of agencies are they? 723 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so like just like that, like the whole goals 724 - > are doing their own thing, they're trying to build crops. 725 - > So every other agency, the other 87,000 agencies out there, they 726 - > need to figure that out.

727 - > And a lot of them are doing that, right? 728 - > How am I going to approach that market? 729 - > A lot of them are specializing, right? 730 - > So they have to start thinking about, and there's a lot of like 731 - > clients we help support.

732 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's really interesting because I just did a 733 - > I just did a podcast with um some guys called Ammunition. 734 - > Really interesting agency, uh down in Atlanta. 735 - > And they, I mean, they're a they're a kind of all business 736 - > agency. 737 - > They're not about like creative awards, they're about they're 738 - > all about like doing the right thing for their clients.

739 - > And they started in like the housing. 740 - > They started with they started in a very specific vertical, 741 - > yeah. 742 - > And with home builders, and they learned how to, it's kind of a 743 - > bit like your dealer.com thing.

744 - > It's like, okay, they learned that vertical, and now they now 745 - > they got the adjacencies, and they just signed like Kimberley 746 - > Clark is like a local massive business local to them in 747 - > Atlanta, but they have like they do home building materials. 748 - > Exactly. 749 - > So it's really interesting, and now they they've just so that 750 - > was really interesting talking to them because they're you 751 - > know, they're they just they're all about like we've got a lot 752 - > of knowledge.

753 - > We know we like we know a lot about these markets, yeah. 754 - > And um, which is different from a kind of like typical agencies 755 - > who are not very usually they're sort of agnostic about the 756 - > clients they have. 757 - > They don't really have a there is no rhyme or reason why these 758 - > clients come to them, they they just they work with a diverse 759 - > set of clients, um, versus okay, we specialize. 760 - > And I think that's it's definitely interesting that when 761 - > you when you hear the specialty coming, um, because you're not 762 - > going to get that at a holding company.

763 - > Um, and it's really interesting. 764 - > I was I did another interview with someone who had been at 765 - > Google for seven years, and she said, you know, when you look 766 - > behind the Google search box and you look inside Google, you 767 - > realize like the car dealer group at uh Google is like 400, 768 - > 500 people. 769 - > You know, all these verticals behind this it's like you think 770 - > of how big it is. 771 - > Um, and this that inside those organizations, there are all 772 - > these specialists who who understand in a way that's sort 773 - > of like forcing agencies to um, you know, you know, get get 774 - > smart.

775 - > The agency I thought surprised me, and this was a while ago, 776 - > was an agency called Jellyfish. 777 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 778 - > SPEAKER_01: Because they were the first ones I saw like they 779 - > were actually becoming super friendly. 780 - > Like they don't have like people were kind of using Google and 781 - > but they were never sort of like as friendly and as like, okay, 782 - > no, we're gonna do the training courses and other sort of but 783 - > this was sort of like this frenemy thing where they got 784 - > kind of access and then got this, they got a different level 785 - > of relationship and a different level of sophistication, I 786 - > think, that I hadn't we hadn't I hadn't seen before.

787 - > So yeah, I think you know, right, there's so much, so much, 788 - > so much is changing. 789 - > Um so so how do you how do you guys keep up with that? 790 - > Because you've got like you've got a lot of macro changes, but 791 - > you've also it's like kind of a bit like your story in the car 792 - > dealers. 793 - > You got the you got your local guy in Vermont up the who's just 794 - > got their first computer, and then you got the Lexus dealer, 795 - > you know, you've got the you've got versions of agencies like 796 - > that.

797 - > So how do you how do you how do you manage that through that? 798 - > Uh, because that's that's interesting, because they're not 799 - > they're not like a there's not one agency model, they're 800 - > they're all working through different scales. 801 - > SPEAKER_03: No, they they are and they're working different 802 - > focuses and like different goals, right? 803 - > Um, but to go back to like just the the earlier point about like 804 - > the agencies that work best, uh that you know our ideal client 805 - > profile, right?

806 - > They have some sort of repetition in they have pain 807 - > points, but like they have repetition in their business or 808 - > like at least thought process of like getting there. 809 - > So like when you talk about like verticalized agencies, like 810 - > someone that just focuses on home services or just focuses in 811 - > auto or just focuses on serving franchises or multi-location, 812 - > right? 813 - > Those are like immediate home runs of like their value prop 814 - > that fluency delivers is like off the charts.

815 - > Like we check all the boxes on that because you have high data, 816 - > lower budgets, typically, like right, and then like the 817 - > efficiency gains there. 818 - > SPEAKER_01: But it's still the performance marketing focused 819 - > people, right? 820 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the the just the gains there, it doesn't just 821 - > stop with that group, but that group of folks and those types 822 - > of agencies that have that repeatable business. 823 - > Um it's lights out home run for for them, yeah, typically.

824 - > But then there's like a lot of the other agencies that are like 825 - > developing those focus areas because that becomes very common 826 - > after you build automation, right? 827 - > You'd be like, Oh, I did this for dentists. 828 - > SPEAKER_00: Yep. 829 - > SPEAKER_03: And be like, I could go launch another dentist really 830 - > rapidly.

831 - > I should go sell another dentist, and then that dental 832 - > group, and suddenly they got a hundred dentists. 833 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 834 - > SPEAKER_03: They're also doing lawyers, and they like did that 835 - > for the lawyers. 836 - > Like, we've naturally like help that pattern recognition like 837 - > happen for a lot of agencies uh automatically.

838 - > But it doesn't stop there though. 839 - > Uh around like budgeting, things like that, like just budget 840 - > management, like figuring out having a world-class budget, 841 - > like you can't overspend, right? 842 - > Someone gives you a million dollars to spend, you spend a 843 - > million and one, like that last dollar's coming out of your 844 - > pocket. 845 - > And if you go way over, slob dollars out of your pocket.

846 - > But also if you're billing on a percentage, right? 847 - > If you only spend 500 of a million, yeah, you only can bill 848 - > on 500. 849 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right. 850 - > SPEAKER_03: So you're just leaving money on the table.

851 - > So you need like a world-class like budgeting solution that 852 - > does all that as well and sets up the accounts and does all 853 - > those things. 854 - > Um, but the change essentially around a lot of the agencies is 855 - > around like focus and discipline, as like they've seen 856 - > margins get smaller, and the things like, yeah, now I got 857 - > TikTok, like that's more labor costs. 858 - > I don't know, my budgets aren't necessarily going up X amount to 859 - > like cover that labor cost.

860 - > I need to figure out how to do that more efficiently, and those 861 - > pain points are being felt. 862 - > So now you know your client wants to be on Netflix or on 863 - > Prime and be like, I need to buy differently in different places, 864 - > and then YouTube right is up, and now I'm on YouTube, like it 865 - > just adds up, yeah. 866 - > But now I need to be able to report back to my client on all 867 - > those channels as well and have a good story. 868 - > SPEAKER_01: So, how do you guys work?

869 - > Because I mean, one of the things I remember working inside 870 - > agencies on this was certainly if you were a small agency, you 871 - > never knew what the hell was going on. 872 - > There was no one to call at like meta. 873 - > They and you because you were just they didn't give it, they 874 - > didn't give a damn. 875 - > They wanted to self-automate everything.

876 - > And I mean, I think we had, I mean, uh, I worked on like a 877 - > very, very big piece of like um business for Google, which was 878 - > priceline, and so we got we had access because they spent so 879 - > much money, but that was a rarity, most you know. 880 - > So you guys, do you guys have like because you're doing this 881 - > at scale? 882 - > Do you like you hear a lot of these media strategists and they 883 - > complain like they changed the algorithm, you know, and no one 884 - > told us, and so there's like changes going on all the time, 885 - > and the agencies are always like the last to know.

886 - > Exactly. 887 - > It seems like a problem. 888 - > Is it you can you guys help that you help them with that to a 889 - > sort of degree? 890 - > SPEAKER_03: We help to a degree, I will say that uh we don't have 891 - > we don't get enough of the information either to like uh 892 - > pass that on.

893 - > The the reality is like we have to be reactive to some of it, 894 - > right? 895 - > But we do know like when API changes or major updates are 896 - > coming out, but there's always like micro things that happen 897 - > all the time, and we it's our job to keep a pulse on that. 898 - > Whereas an agency, if they were trying to like keep up on all 899 - > that, it's hard, right? 900 - > Yeah, focus, it's not your prime job, which is like why we come 901 - > in as a partner to be like we're gonna stay on this and try to 902 - > make sure we like cover the things that we need to cover so 903 - > you don't have to worry about that and the automations can 904 - > keep working.

905 - > SPEAKER_01: So, what are agencies what are agencies 906 - > asking you for? 907 - > Like, what are they saying we really need, yeah? 908 - > If you could add these features or this stuff, what would they 909 - > what do they really want right now? 910 - > SPEAKER_03: Uh depth and breadth on like uh I mean, there's uh I 911 - > can I forget the number.

912 - > Uh my business partners uh uses it's like you know, get them 913 - > millions of configuration possibilities just on Google 914 - > alone. 915 - > Wow, right? 916 - > So we focus on like the center mass shot of like what are we 917 - > what what are the things most people are gonna do, right? 918 - > Um uh what people ask for a lot of people are asking, like 919 - > TikTok's making moves, right?

920 - > Uh they want more depth, they want like to add uh if you're a 921 - > smaller or mid sized agency, have you know a DSP offering? 922 - > Um, right? 923 - > Connected TV is like a thing people are talking about. 924 - > They might want to start like be able to experiment and offer 925 - > products around that.

926 - > So like asked around that and be able to extract. 927 - > Execute that. 928 - > And they're coming to us too and say, like, how do I develop 929 - > those products? 930 - > And then we show them what's capable on the platform.

931 - > We always come back to that. 932 - > And then make sure they're using the latest and greatest. 933 - > Right? 934 - > Google, Meta, they always say, like, you got to use the latest 935 - > and greatest, which is all AI driven now.

936 - > And how do I do that? 937 - > How do I take my old portfolio? 938 - > I may have 800 accounts that are dentists and doctors' offices or 939 - > whatever. 940 - > How do I get them from point A to point B?

941 - > Because if I did it manually, I'm going to have 3,000 hours of 942 - > labor and I can't do that. 943 - > So, like, how do I like build my new playbook using the new best 944 - > practices? 945 - > Take clients, build a story, right? 946 - > Go back to my other clients, my other 800 clients, and tell them 947 - > I'm going to evolve their advertising and be a good agency 948 - > for those businesses.

949 - > SPEAKER_01: And how often do they have to be doing that? 950 - > SPEAKER_03: Because if things are changing, I mean, these days 951 - > it happens more often, right? 952 - > Because there's something new all the time coming out. 953 - > Um, like Google's got new creative tools they announced 954 - > this week.

955 - > Be like, great. 956 - > Uh, and people are gonna want to use those, and like, how do they 957 - > work? 958 - > So we work with Google and say, like, what's available in the 959 - > API? 960 - > Like, how do we like build that into workflows?

961 - > Because people want to be able to use this new stuff, but they 962 - > also are not gonna give free reign to AI to do anything, 963 - > especially in any any business that has regulatory compliance 964 - > stuff to go with it. 965 - > Think like fair housing or financing, like there's like 966 - > lawyers are not gonna allow AI to build creative and throw it 967 - > up anywhere on the planet. 968 - > So building workflows for them to like build creative, right? 969 - > That's gonna be compliant, and then have a human in the loop to 970 - > like eyeball everything to make sure it meets the spec.

971 - > Um, and then they own pushing the button to push it out there. 972 - > SPEAKER_01: So, what what about the the shift to um LLMs and 973 - > what's happening there? 974 - > So much of the customer journey is starting in a in a clawed or 975 - > a open AI chat box. 976 - > Is that yeah?

977 - > SPEAKER_03: I mean the assumption, right? 978 - > Like people are gonna want to make money and advertising is 979 - > gonna be blended into those all those, right? 980 - > Like Chat GPT, like their initiatives right now, um, to 981 - > put advertising in there to help monetize their business. 982 - > I mean, they need to.

983 - > Uh, the billions and billions or hundreds of billions of dollars 984 - > that are going into these, right? 985 - > People want to return on that, and advertising is is a natural 986 - > way to like extend that. 987 - > Um, so that's gonna be another channel, right? 988 - > People are gonna want to be able to like do that from that 989 - > perspective, and then you gotta be able to build creative and 990 - > leverage these tools too to like build some of that.

991 - > So just using LLMs, we build that like right into the 992 - > product, whether that's a simple chatbot tool or using the 993 - > creative engines out there, but building that into like solid 994 - > workflows that you don't have to go figure out how to do that. 995 - > SPEAKER_01: So so when you think about the creative side, now you 996 - > have people asking for are you talking to the same person 997 - > behind the desk, or is it a different person now? 998 - > SPEAKER_03: Oh, at the agency, yeah.

999 - > Uh sometimes different, right? 1000 - > Um, creative teams have obviously like have great 1001 - > concern on like what their roles traditionally have been to what 1002 - > they're gonna be in the future, right? 1003 - > Yeah, that is like one area like that has been hit pretty hard. 1004 - > Um but the the the logic and like helping build what that 1005 - > creative like the job's changing, right?

1006 - > Just like many of the other jobs that have changed in the past, 1007 - > like the job isn't now to spend eight hours in Photoshop making 1008 - > the perfect asset. 1009 - > It is like building better prompts and building more 1010 - > creative assets and more options that the advertising engines can 1011 - > use, and the best creative will win, right? 1012 - > If you can have the right system set up uh to be able to like 1013 - > test those things rapidly and let the right creatives win, 1014 - > it's like teaching the system how to do that, but deal with 1015 - > all the right compliance issues, the brand guidelines, the 1016 - > standards, like making sure that those are all executed really 1017 - > well.

1018 - > Still takes that creative eye for sure. 1019 - > SPEAKER_01: Do you think there's sort of like um it's become a 1020 - > sort of treadmill a little bit like this this or or a hamster 1021 - > wheel that the you just can't get off it? 1022 - > It's sort of like and I had a comp some conversations this 1023 - > week that sound very much like this that the pressure's coming 1024 - > from on top, like we we gotta make our targets, and it's 1025 - > coming straight into the marketing department.

1026 - > And years ago it used to be, yeah, we'll plan a can't, you 1027 - > know, we'll plan a magazine campaign for Q3, you know, but 1028 - > it's like you're in Q1. 1029 - > So that yeah, yeah, well, you know, we're gonna brief the 1030 - > agency, dah dah, dah. 1031 - > Now it's like a real-time pressure. 1032 - > It's like, okay, we've got a dashboard, we're seeing our 1033 - > sales, you know, we're seeing how many tickets we're selling 1034 - > on the airplane, whatever, whatever that metric is they're 1035 - > using and their clients.

1036 - > And they're like, how do we juice this up? 1037 - > What do we have to do? 1038 - > You know, it's like, and so they're on this wheel that they 1039 - > just it's just like it's like relentless, it never stops. 1040 - > It's like every day they've got a target and it doesn't change 1041 - > tomorrow.

1042 - > It's like it's another still there. 1043 - > Is that something that's is that is that me reading it wrong, or 1044 - > is that is that what's going on? 1045 - > SPEAKER_03: Oh, I mean, there's a lot of that out there for 1046 - > sure. 1047 - > Yeah, like you get a you know, a good read on that, right?

1048 - > It's like you know, people in sales, like sales leaders, 1049 - > right? 1050 - > They're like, you know, it's the first anything you did yesterday 1051 - > was like doesn't matter. 1052 - > SPEAKER_01: I mean it's but it's like it's like it's like it's 1053 - > like because because media has become like so much more real 1054 - > time, and you know, uh you you know you can sense that people 1055 - > things you know when things are or aren't working in a much very 1056 - > fast, right?

1057 - > So you being, you know, if the pressure's coming from on top 1058 - > and something's working, well, we want to do more of it, or if 1059 - > you pressure's coming from on top and something isn't working, 1060 - > then we got to change it. 1061 - > So it seems like there's the inside these organizations, uh, 1062 - > especially at a at a client level and not and out of an 1063 - > agency level, they're they're kind of in the same boat. 1064 - > They're like they they they're on this hamster wheel, they 1065 - > don't have resources.

1066 - > Like the m you said it before, like their margins are kind of 1067 - > like we can't put like this has got to change, but like we've 1068 - > got to put more hours on it. 1069 - > We already used our hours. 1070 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there's no hours, there's no hours 1071 - > available. 1072 - > SPEAKER_01: There's no hours available, so it's like kind of 1073 - > like really, really, really hard.

1074 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's the pressure a lot of our clients do 1075 - > feel. 1076 - > Like they they know there's a different way. 1077 - > So when we do like a demo of our product, it kind of like bends 1078 - > some people's minds because they're like, if you can say 1079 - > what you do, why isn't everyone using you already? 1080 - > And be like, Well, we have we're growing pretty damn fast, so 1081 - > that that is happening.

1082 - > Um, but we're also focused on uh enterprise folks, the larger 1083 - > complex problems. 1084 - > Um why do we pick that space? 1085 - > Because a lot of the market's like uh very it's got a lot of 1086 - > competitors in it, um, and we wanted to build like a system 1087 - > that does the most. 1088 - > Um, but we have clients in all areas uh of the spectrum.

1089 - > Um but to get to the point of like it's a system. 1090 - > People need to think about systems versus like a strategy 1091 - > for one client. 1092 - > It is like how am I operating my business? 1093 - > Because when something isn't working, I'm not gonna be 1094 - > afforded a team of five people to work on a ten thousand dollar 1095 - > a month client, right, to go do something for two weeks and come 1096 - > up with new creative and a new approach.

1097 - > I need to be able to like see the data, push a button, make 1098 - > decisions right now, today, and have that executed and 1099 - > delivered, including creative today. 1100 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right. 1101 - > SPEAKER_03: And that some one person's gonna be able to do 1102 - > that and do that effectively and communicate back to the client, 1103 - > show them like do all these things very rapidly. 1104 - > SPEAKER_01: Is this a new person we're talking about?

1105 - > Like it's not the same person you were talking to back in um 1106 - > the day when you started out. 1107 - > It sounds like this is a new kind of hybrid, multifaceted 1108 - > individual who can he, you know, can make things, has a really 1109 - > deep understanding of social media in a way that is beyond 1110 - > like the Google understanding, understands TikTok. 1111 - > SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, to make a film power of data. 1112 - > SPEAKER_01: You make a make a make a film, not every everyone 1113 - > can make a film for TikTok.

1114 - > It's it's like really, really hard. 1115 - > SPEAKER_03: Yep. 1116 - > SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't know, like who can who can make 1117 - > a film for TikTok and do really good SEO analytics for a client? 1118 - > It's like, wow, that's like they're probably not getting 1119 - > they're probably not getting paid enough if they can do it.

1120 - > SPEAKER_03: No, but that the that job is like meshed and 1121 - > merged. 1122 - > We think about the the skill set we talk about changing in the 1123 - > sense of like it's not like who knows Photoshop or Illustrator 1124 - > or can do like video production as much as like you understand 1125 - > data, you understand like data logic when you want to like pull 1126 - > things together. 1127 - > This is like kind of like the job of the strategist now, 1128 - > right? 1129 - > When they're thinking about like how do I pull data out of a CRM 1130 - > system?

1131 - > How do I like link all this together to an outcome, which is 1132 - > a TikTok budget and video, and have media plans over here that 1133 - > I'm pulling? 1134 - > Like, how do I orchestrate that? 1135 - > This is a little bit of a different skill set, but you 1136 - > still gotta know at the end of the day, like how Google works, 1137 - > how meta works, how tick tock works, right? 1138 - > SPEAKER_01: Today, today, not well, not a month ago.

1139 - > It's like you're gonna know how it works today. 1140 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, exactly. 1141 - > You gotta like keep keep up with all of it. 1142 - > So the job has definitely gotten like more complex.

1143 - > We've actually introduced like two specific new roles, uh, and 1144 - > maybe other people use these, but I haven't heard too much of 1145 - > them in the industry. 1146 - > One is called an advertising engineer, yeah, right? 1147 - > You have your strategists, yeah, and people are like, There's a 1148 - > senior strategist and a lead strategist, and be like, we take 1149 - > that and be like, that is one career path, but there's another 1150 - > career path now called advertising engineers, and they 1151 - > are like doing that like work of linking that data together, and 1152 - > then there's another layer on top of that called advertising 1153 - > architects, and those are the ones that really are 1154 - > understanding how to like pull all that stuff together and how 1155 - > you architect a solution uh on how you want to pull all the 1156 - > data through to the advertising back data, you know, the 1157 - > reporting all the way back to like super.

1158 - > SPEAKER_01: These are data, these are data functions. 1159 - > An advertising engineer and an advertising architect, uh data 1160 - > functions, data specialty functions. 1161 - > Is that how you see them? 1162 - > Yep.

1163 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, they are focused on like work streams, 1164 - > um, but but obviously there's nuance in every agency or brand 1165 - > in that, but those those rules are like how do I execute 1166 - > complex advertising functions uh and get deterministic output, 1167 - > right? 1168 - > I want to do these, have these things done with these goals, 1169 - > and yeah, get that back to be able to like look look good to 1170 - > our clients based on our RFP or value prop or sales pitch, 1171 - > whatever that is.

1172 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah. 1173 - > So um when you like I said earlier in a call, I I saw you 1174 - > guys at a Mirin conference, which I thought was interesting. 1175 - > It's like it's a new business conference. 1176 - > So I was thinking, well, it's not really a media, it's like uh 1177 - > it's for people trying to get business in agencies.

1178 - > I mean, obviously, yeah, they're an important audience, but it 1179 - > seemed like a little different. 1180 - > Um what would where where do you where do you go to find your 1181 - > clients and how and how has that got harder in as the years have 1182 - > gone by? 1183 - > Or is it the same places? 1184 - > SPEAKER_03: Uh we we go to conferences, like we really 1185 - > kicked this business.

1186 - > Well, we started in November 2017, right? 1187 - > But we spent 2018 and 2019 building this, like the base 1188 - > software for our business. 1189 - > So two years doing that. 1190 - > We kind of like went to market to test in 2020, like right when 1191 - > COVID hit.

1192 - > SPEAKER_00: Yeah. 1193 - > SPEAKER_03: Um, and and conferences like shut down, 1194 - > right? 1195 - > COVID. 1196 - > SPEAKER_01: Um just at the time when you needed them, just when 1197 - > the time we needed them, right?

1198 - > SPEAKER_03: Um, to go out there. 1199 - > So we like had to take a different approach, like most 1200 - > businesses did, like essentially like stop thinking like that 1201 - > this g was gonna work, and there's no pity parties here, 1202 - > like you get to figure it out. 1203 - > SPEAKER_00: Yep. 1204 - > SPEAKER_03: So when you're like trying to launch a business, we 1205 - > had some early partners, we focused on those, those early 1206 - > successes.

1207 - > Um, kind of like you know, people someone left that 1208 - > business, went over there, and like things happening. 1209 - > SPEAKER_01: Had a good experience, yeah. 1210 - > SPEAKER_03: But all while like building our brands and value 1211 - > prop and case studies, right, on like showing actual successes 1212 - > and being like this client removed 92% of their button 1213 - > clicks, right? 1214 - > That is like that's amazing, yeah.

1215 - > Amazing about, and they were just like underwater, everyone's 1216 - > miserable, like and like looking at like the culture change 1217 - > software or software made in their business. 1218 - > They didn't like go get rid of a lot of people, there's like 1219 - > natural attrition, but they were able to like grow their business 1220 - > at the end of the day, like successfully, and like change 1221 - > the culture in their business. 1222 - > That's that's the cool stuff uh that happens that we really like 1223 - > to be able to like see that the actual change.

1224 - > SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah. 1225 - > So um are you gonna be will you be at CAN or is that something 1226 - > that uh we won't be at CAN this year. 1227 - > SPEAKER_03: Uh we do go to lots of conferences though, like the 1228 - > CS at Ad Week. 1229 - > Um, we are not going to CAN this year, but we'll be there next 1230 - > year uh in force.

1231 - > Um uh the Marine Plan. 1232 - > SPEAKER_01: What about the ANA conference? 1233 - > SPEAKER_03: Then like they do I think we're going to A, we're 1234 - > going to like fora's. 1235 - > Uh we go to uh what's the big one in first week of January in 1236 - > Vegas?

1237 - > SPEAKER_00: National Retailer Foundation, pardon. 1238 - > Is it is it? 1239 - > I don't know. 1240 - > SPEAKER_03: Oh why this is like something like CS.

1241 - > Yes. 1242 - > Uh we're also at Possible. 1243 - > That just happened like uh not that long ago, yeah, as well. 1244 - > So like we we are at a lot of conferences, and then we have uh 1245 - > a little regional stuff too that we go to.

1246 - > Our sales team is all remote, so they're like popping in all over 1247 - > the place as well. 1248 - > SPEAKER_01: Cool. 1249 - > Um thoughts for agencies, what agencies need to be doing in 1250 - > this rest of the year. 1251 - > What I mean, you talked a little bit about it, but like how do 1252 - > you connect what you can provide agencies and what agencies need 1253 - > to be doing to get their house in order?

1254 - > Because it seems like there's a correlation between you know, 1255 - > you it's there's a sort of a bit of a walk-run here. 1256 - > You know, you can't just you need a sort of a mindset about 1257 - > like having an operating system. 1258 - > You need to think at a high level about your business. 1259 - > SPEAKER_03: And yeah, at the highest level, there's not 1260 - > there's not a spot tool, right?

1261 - > There's no like Google script or some magical hire that is gonna 1262 - > like revolutionize any agency or any brand's in-house marketing. 1263 - > It is really about like what system are you gonna put in? 1264 - > I take it back to like CRM, like when CRM like really became 1265 - > popular, like everyone has a CRM system now. 1266 - > There's no question, like I'm using HubSpot or Salesforce or 1267 - > one of the other.

1268 - > I mean, there's there's lots of options out there today, right? 1269 - > Um, but prior to that, everyone had spreadsheets, right? 1270 - > SPEAKER_01: A few months ago, a few months ago, I was too maybe 1271 - > it was the last year. 1272 - > I was talking to somebody who was kind of like he was buying 1273 - > agencies.

1274 - > He was like, he was going out and buying agencies, and he was 1275 - > talking very specifically about agencies not really having a a 1276 - > good understanding of how to run a run a business, you know, like 1277 - > how to run a balance sheet, how to know how to how to charge 1278 - > correctly and and how to know um what you're you know, how to 1279 - > make a margin. 1280 - > And he was basically saying that there's a lot of businesses out 1281 - > there that they're straight they don't they just kind of struggle 1282 - > with like the fundamentals of what a business is.

1283 - > And uh it seems to me that it seems to me that you kind of 1284 - > unless you've kind of sorted that out, you can't like you 1285 - > can't expect you, you can't this isn't a silver bullet. 1286 - > You've got to you've got to do the hard work and working out 1287 - > how your business makes money or can make money. 1288 - > And then if you've got that, you can put this in place and it can 1289 - > help you. 1290 - > But if you don't have the first thing, it's not like no, 1291 - > totally.

1292 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like how how is it gonna just run and operate 1293 - > is like how we like like just think about like that. 1294 - > So like go back to like the CRM thing, or or even think about 1295 - > like the world, you know, the financial world, right? 1296 - > Back in like you know, 2000, people were running around 1297 - > pieces of paper, yeah, creating stocks, yeah, and then three 1298 - > years later, like that floor is dead, like that doesn't happen, 1299 - > didn't happen anymore, right?

1300 - > Because everyone went to systems, right? 1301 - > You got Fidelity, Swab, like E-Tray, like they run the 1302 - > systems now. 1303 - > My theory, which is I see it happening because I'm in it in 1304 - > one of those businesses, is like digital advertising is going to 1305 - > move there, it is it is moving there right now to systems, and 1306 - > we're one of like the those systems. 1307 - > And yeah, if you're not using one of those systems 10 years 1308 - > from now, it will be a struggle in a slog because your clients 1309 - > are going to be asking for all these complex things to be going 1310 - > off on all these platforms.

1311 - > Yeah, and for you to do it manually is an impossible task. 1312 - > It is absolutely impossible. 1313 - > SPEAKER_01: So well, thank you so much. 1314 - > That was really, really good conversation.

1315 - > Appreciate you taking the time. 1316 - > SPEAKER_03: Yeah, fun being here. 1317 - > Good to see you. 1318 - > SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much.

1319 - > Um, I hope you have a uh a good week, a Memorial Day weekend. 1320 - > SPEAKER_03: You too.