IE113 - Dr Rajesh Kumar | Cross-Cultural Competence

Speaker A: So I feel that inspired energy is that inspiration and something takes your breath away. The tie in for inspired energy and fear. Inspired energy for me is the energy that you draw from others,

Speaker B: you know, and I think that maybe fits into

Speaker A: my definition of inspired energy.

Speaker B: Like right now I'm in the zone.

Speaker A: Inspired energy. So I think for me the inspiration comes from people being inspired to use up your energy.

Speaker C: Inspired energy was what motivated me.

Speaker B: Inspired energy. This is episode 113 of the Inspired

Speaker C: Energy podcast with Murray Guest. And this episode I'm chatting with Dr. Rajesh Kumar. Now this was a really interesting chat and something different for the podcast because Dr. Kumar is an expert in international business strategy and cross cultural management. He originally hails from India, but has lived and worked in in the United States, the uk, Denmark, France, Finland, Netherlands and New Zealand. And he's developed a deep appreciation and awareness of the importance of the cross cultural dimension and how it can impact strategy formulation and implementation. Dr. Kumar has also published numerous research papers and co authored a book on doing business in India and also the international negotiations in China and India. We had a really interesting conversation exploring what this means in business and those cultural differences. He gives some really great examples, um, which unfortunately are mistakes that we can learn from. But also some key highlights we explore are, uh, how when you're doing business globally, to be prepared, do your research and understand those cultural differences. We also talk about decoding what's actually going on as opposed to what you might perceive is actually happening. And also in international business, you have to look at three important things, culture, history, and the politics, because they can all impact the context of the situation. Hope you get as many wonderful insights from this conversation as I did. And here I go, catching up with Dr. Kumar.

Speaker B: Rajesh, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. I really appreciate our quick chat that we just had and getting to know you a little bit. But I'm really excited about sharing the uniqueness of your expertise and what you do, uh, with the podcast community today. Uh, thank you so much. Um, now something that I know about you is you've lived in a variety of places around the world, correct?

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah. Because your work is taking you to some amazing places. Where are you living right now?

Speaker A: I'm in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Speaker B: I have been there. It's a, it was a really enjoyable trip and um, it's a, it's a beautiful part of the world. How's, how's life there at the moment for you?

Speaker A: Well, you know, it's, it's good, it's Just been extremely hot the last few days or the last week or 10 days. It's been in the 90s, um, and so that's been a little surprising, but I think it's going to cool down and so, uh. That's good.

Speaker B: Yeah. Good, good. Well, in the 90s, so, uh, we're talking high 30s pushing into the.

Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. Yeah. I mean this is the kind of temperature you get in India during the summer.

Speaker B: Yeah. You don't expect it in Philadelphia. I know.

Speaker A: Well, no, summers can be hot, you know, but I think you, you may even get 90s or even more than that, but you do not get 20 or 30 days of that.

Speaker B: Ah, uh, yeah, yeah. That continue.

Speaker A: I think that's the. So yeah, occasionally you can, you can get heat. It does get hot in the summer.

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, so your area that you have been working for some time is international business strategy and cross cultural management and helping people understand that. So yeah, help me understand. How did you get to be, uh, focusing in this part of the work that you do? How did you get to focus on this?

Speaker A: So I think a number of things. One was my own personal experience as I moved from India to England and then to the United States. And so the first thing one noticed was that India and England are very different societies culturally, historically. And you know, when you cross cultures you do face challenges, whether communication, whether in understanding, uh, other people's thinking. So I did face a cultural shock when I moved to England, uh, and then again when I moved to the US So I think I became attuned to the idea that cultural differences are important. And then later on, I think in the mid-80s, uh, when I was completing my PhD at NYU, I focused on the cross cultural dimension. And at that time, um, there were a lot of Japanese companies coming to the United States. And uh, so there was a huge cultural gap. And in fact, um, and I focused on negotiations and looking at uh, how um, culture impacts that. And what amazes me is that in 1987, uh, 1988, it is understandable because America is a big market. They're not dependent, um, on any other countries. So they were traditionally insular. And there was a good reason, uh, for that. A lot of American companies really didn't export. And uh, much of the demand and all was internal, so there was no need to do it. But fast forward 30, 35 years or 40 years down the road when you go to any supermarket and buy and notice that most of the things are from China or from other Asian countries.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: And you see very Little made in America. And I suspect the same might be in Australia as well. So. So the world has become a very different place, very globalized. M. Yet, you know, when you talk to people on, um, the street, you know, uh, uh, people, uh, just the ordinary people, they're, they're still clueless about culture.

Speaker B: Yeah, I, I, um, I've traveled a little bit, and I, I, my, my screen, my skin crawls, my hair stand up a little bit when I do see those people traveling. And they're not appreciative, they're not respectful of those cultural differences. Um, and I think that when we do, there's a real curiosity there that has to come out, isn't there?

Speaker A: Right. So that is still not there. I mean, you know, I think, uh. And I think in America, as you know, in particular, there's always been the belief in American exceptionalism and, uh, I think the idea that everyone should imitate what America is doing. America the first, the best. And that feeling is still there. But I think. And so, uh, when you have that feeling, then it also impacts the ability to learn from others.

Speaker B: Ah. Uh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Right. So, uh, if American values are global values, then of course, why should people learn from, uh, any others? So there's a unique aspect to this particular culture. And yet the thing is that a lot of business is global. A lot of alliances involve partners from, um, China, Japan or elsewhere. So in the business community there is definitely an awareness, but still not that much.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And while America actually has a unique, uh, situation because of its place in the global economy, I think the same blindness or cultural blindness, I would say, exist in all countries.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that's a good point to make that. And, um, I want to understand that a bit more around. It's not about pointing the finger at one country, is it? It's around there's a consistent shift that needs to be made.

Speaker A: Right. It's it. It is simply the case that in other countries, because they are so dependent on the US So they need to do business there. So, uh, there is the imperative to learn about American practices and all of that. And even that at times can get challenging. And I was just on a podcast yesterday evening with some people in Japan, and we were discussing the challenges of global negotiations. So, you know, I think so culture is something which is. It is unconscious. It is there, and it manifests itself in the kind of assumptions that we make. And this is the biggest problem, because the assumptions that we have are unconscious.

Speaker B: What do you think is one of the assumptions that people May, uh, have that subconscious they're not even aware about.

Speaker A: So, you know, like, uh, so I was talking. I'll just give you an example. So, so in this podcast, uh, one person related a story that they, when they were in China, for example, so woman just asked her, what, uh, is your salary? Something which would never be asked in the US Now. So for the person in that particular country, it was a natural thing to ask. It was something that, uh, that, that you expect. So these are kind of small things and big things that can actually impact interactions. And so other. Or for example in America, uh, you know, you know, in general, North American, European cultures, you expect if I ask you a question, you'll give me a direct response.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: That is expectation. And if you don't get that response, then you might really wonder, uh, what's going on here? Is the person interested? You know, and again, I had an interesting story yesterday where, uh, an American manager was giving a presentation to some Japanese. And um, so after the presentation, he laid out the price of the product. There was total silence in the room.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Not respond. And this gentleman got so frustrated he lowered the price. Ah. And he did not really understand that Japanese way of doing things is different. And the fact that they did not respond immediately.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, uh, is not a sign. Is not saying that they are unhappy with the price necessarily. So, I mean, these are small instances, but you can see assumptions coming into play.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, and my own personal experience. So back in the, in the 90s, I worked for a global company and I was part of a number of projects that were across different countries. And I remember that what you're referring to there sort of occurring a few times where you might ask someone a direct question in a, in a project meeting and you might not get the exact answer or a roundabout sort of answer. And what I, I think I learned out of some errors and mistakes that I made that that was just a way of communicating. Didn't mean they were being honest, but that was their way of communicating.

Speaker A: Exactly, exactly. So, you know, and these are just some examples, but they're just illustrative of the kind of problems that might arise. So in many cultures, in Latin America or in Asia, if you're doing business, you spend a lot of time socializing, drinking, you know, uh, you don't get to the talk, uh, of the heart, uh, of the proposal necessarily very soon. But I guess for people from your culture or in Britain or in the US they might get frustrated.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Unless they're not aware of it.

Speaker B: And, and and so I, I, I can imagine the awareness is as a place to start.

Speaker A: It is a place to start, but that's not sufficient.

Speaker B: No. So, um, when you work with companies and you help them improve this, how do you get the shift from awareness to a change in behavior which has better cultural appreciation?

Speaker A: That's a tricky issue because, you know, I think one of the challenges is that that process is going to take time. And, uh, I think it is still. That would require more time and would require a number of workshops or interventions. But a lot of companies do not have the budget, are not, um, willing to actually spend a lot of, a lot of time on that. And the other issue, again I was talking to some people is that, uh, many companies will, um, you know, will, um, you know, will only hire people like us when they have a problem. Uh, yeah. And in some sense that's actually already too late.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Because. So one of my messages is that, uh, if you're doing business globally, you have to be prepared. Prepared. Prepared. Preparation is the key to success.

Speaker B: And Can I, can I just jump in there?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Also wondering about a couple of times you're sort of referencing those subconscious biases that you might have.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And I think the more aware of those we can be so that we aren't being, uh, driven by those without realizing it.

Speaker A: No, absolutely. And I think that's, that's, that's, that's very, very important. And, and I think personality also comes in because there are some individuals who have the natural ability or the talent or the ability to really pick up various cues and to change their behavior, whereas others are going to be more rigid, more, uh, introverted. And I think they are going to have a harder time M. Because certainly much of the world, except Europe and a lot of businesses is very relational, which M means you're spending a lot of time with each other, uh, socializing and getting to know each other.

Speaker B: So I've worked with a number of leaders that have a role where they're based somewhere like Singapore or Australia. Ah. Or in London. And then they've got teams that are based around the world.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And they're having regular meetings like we are today, over zoom or teams or something else.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And what I'm wondering is how those different cultures are, uh, respected, appreciated in those meetings when they get together.

Speaker A: It's a tough issue, and it's one, I think, which will vary from company to company based on what, you know, how well they're prepared for that in the sense that a. Are they conscious of the potential Problems.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And uh, are they respectful of the diversity in the group? So one of the challenges there would be and um, in a zoo and in a virtual meeting that becomes more difficult because do not have a face to face interaction. And one of the questions, one of the challenges is that for people coming from collectivistic cultures they may not be so ready to speak up.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So how do you get them to participate in the meeting?

Speaker B: So what's your, what's your tip for that?

Speaker A: So I think you know, you have to actually create a certain level of psychological safety.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think it's not going to happen in one meeting or so, but I think it's going to take a little bit of time and the managers who are leading it have to be consistent and you have to use subtle ways of trying to encourage uh, those people to participate. And I think once you're able to build this level of psychological safety then I think it will be easier. It will never be quite the same as might happen uh, in a North American or in an Australian group. But you know, I think the question is to attain a working level. Uh, yeah, you know, and I think that's what the, that's what the name, uh, the goal should be.

Speaker B: Um, do you think, do you think it works if a ah, leader tries to call it out quite overtly and help the team articulate what is important for them in the way they communicate. So do you think that would work with some cultures but other cultures even might find that difficult to do?

Speaker A: Yeah, some might find it difficult to do. Unless you already build, you know, unless you've had site side talks with them beforehand.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Now uh, and then get them on board. So like in Australia and North America you come to a group and you know, the leader says whatever it is. And so if those people are not so familiar with the leader and uh, it's their first meeting, there will obviously be a certain degree of hesitancy.

Speaker B: Yeah, gotcha. Yeah. And I think that's a really good point. I think that socializing the concept before the meeting. So again building psychological safety.

Speaker A: Yes, yes, that's, that's, that's very, very critical. Especially you know when you, and then I think you need to uh. So in these teams one other issue is the question of power.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: And so the leader has to be careful that not one group dominates. Because I think if you have, if you have a power imbalance and you have ah, say Americans or British just dominating that meeting, then the others will just shut up.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I have seen that, unfortunately. So I understand what you mean there.

Speaker A: Yes, yes.

Speaker B: Um, okay, great, great. Um, this is really fascinating. Thank you. And. And I know it's a challenge for a lot of people that work, as I was saying, across different countries, but also, um, what has been great in Australia is we are getting more cultures represented here, so.

Speaker A: Right, yes.

Speaker B: More, uh, people moving here, first, second generation, that are working in businesses. So you're working with people day in, day out, uh, from different cultural backgrounds as well.

Speaker A: Right, yeah, of course. And, uh, and Asia is, you know, Australia is pretty multicultural, and I guess you've got a lot of immigrants from Hong Kong, China, India, and other parts of the world.

Speaker B: Yes. So when you talk about cultural competence.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Um, how. If I was to explain that to the people I work with, how could I articulate that?

Speaker A: So it is your ability to actually, you know, understand cultural situations, what's going on. You know, what is. You know, what you might see overtly may not be what's happening internally.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: So the ability to decode what is going on as opposed to what appears to be going on. And there's often a difference. So in this case, which example I gave you, this gentleman had no idea about the situation when he was making this presentation to the Japanese. He could not decode what silence meant. Right. So that's why. So, uh, you've got to be able to decode situations as to what is actually going on, because unless you don't understand that, you cannot have a response, uh, you cannot have an effective response. So that's one thing. Then I think you also got to have the temperament to. To be able to build relationships. And, uh. And that requires patience, perseverance, and the ability to overcome failures.

Speaker B: Yeah. Because that's what I was wondering about that gentleman in that situation where he didn't consider the cultural difference. So when. When that gentleman gets in that situation, or if someone feels they're in that situation where maybe they have, um, misread the difference. Right.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: What. What do you do then?

Speaker A: So I think you don't want to be in that situation, ideally. So you should have been more aware of what the typical Japanese response is going to be.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: He should have known that silence does not mean that they are disagreeing with your view. He could have given them space. It was silent. You could also have been silent. Right. So.

Speaker B: And in. In that situation, do you know what happened? What was the final outcome for?

Speaker A: So I think then the jazz. So he lost out. So they settled on it at a lower price.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Because they figured out that he's lowering his price. So then it worked to the Japanese advantage.

Speaker B: Yeah, gotcha.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: And, and, and I guess when it comes to major contracts or major sales, um, not understanding or preparing as you're saying, which is so critical. And I'm saying the culture can have some real impact.

Speaker A: Oh it does, it does. And also in relation to the issue of contracts.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Meaning of contracts and how flexible should the contracts be? So in Japan it's more, you know, they have a much more of a flexible view of contracts.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So the assumption is that uh, if situations change, then you should also be prepared to accommodate. But in uh, North America, Australia, England, it's a different view. You sign a contract and so that comes with its own obligations and duties.

Speaker B: Yeah, yep.

Speaker A: Right. So but even here, you know, I think if the contract is big enough and the parties are in a long term relationship, they might renegotiate it. But that will be done in a more informal basis.

Speaker B: Yeah. Okay, gotcha. Um, so it sounds like there's some key differences between culture you've identified over the years. And you talked about communication, um, even that listening and pausing, but even how we might manage contracts. What are some of the other major differences that you've noticed between cultures?

Speaker A: Oh, the issue of time is very important.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: And maybe you've experienced it when you were working in those global teams.

Speaker B: So I've got a thought. But what are you, what, what are you thinking about time in this situation?

Speaker A: So you know, in some cultures, like u. S. So we agreed to meet at 9:00pm so in India time has a much more elastic view. So if you invite someone for dinner at 7:30, they might not show up till 8:30 or 9. And so the expectation is that there's going to be uh, a delay. So uh, obviously that can drive people a little, uh, those who are not used to it. Yes, yes. And so you need to plan for it. And, and so what that means is, uh, I was giving this advice to someone yesterday that if you're doing a project, say in India and uh, you know, you plan for a couple of weeks of delay in your. So if you expect the project to be done in uh, uh, say two weeks. Right. Recognize it, might you pad it up and uh, you recognize it might be three or four weeks.

Speaker B: Yeah, gotcha.

Speaker A: Right. So the issue of time is important because it impacts everything. Yeah.

Speaker B: And guess what I was also thinking about there with time is when you uh, communicate to someone, um, how you will get back to them on a task or some information. And I feel like that there's some differences there and I'd love to know what you think, where it could be. Uh, someone might say, I'll get back to you next Wednesday morning. And someone's might be, I'll get back to you when I get back to you. It's like a bit more broad, a

Speaker A: bit more open, right? Yes, yes. So I think, you know, you've got to just factor that in in terms of the decision making. And the other thing is you can try to create your own culture, corporate culture that might uh, actually where you train or educate people.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: About the importance of uh, sticking to time or to deadlines. And certainly if you're submitting a bid or you're trying to complete a project on time, then I think, you know, that is critical because otherwise you may face penalties.

Speaker B: Yeah. So what, what's popping into my head here is I love what you're saying about creating your own culture. Because what I'm thinking is how do you create that culture? That's like a middle ground, right?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's not like everyone has to come across to one country's culture or another, but how do we respect and appreciate both or multiple and find that middle ground?

Speaker A: Right. So you know, you work in this particular area in terms of corporate uh, culture. So. And you must have. So it's essentially, it's essentially creating, you know, uh, uh, what I would say a company wise ethos in terms of how the company does various things which in a very broad level and then you allow for unique local variations.

Speaker B: Yeah, okay. Yeah. And I think where I've done work with teams and leaders around creating their culture, their way of working. Um, I think my do better is. Let's overtly also talk about the cultural differences as well.

Speaker A: Of course. Yes, yes, yes. But it's important when you're doing this, you will obviously talk about this as well.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think a lot of global companies have their own training development centers where they invite people from different parts of the world for workshops and training. And so I think that would be the way to actually build that.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think you're right. And I think that um, there's a word that we've been exploring which I think is so important is that curiosity, you know, that appreciation.

Speaker A: Very important. Yes. The only thing I would say is that uh, for the small to medium sized company, the cultural barriers may be more of a challenge.

Speaker B: Yeah, got you. Yeah.

Speaker A: Because they don't have the resources either. The Financial or the managerial to be able to say, provide these training programs and, and all of this.

Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's a good point. So if, um, uh, there's a leader or an owner from a small business that would like to uh, invest in that cultural competency, where do you think they could start?

Speaker A: Oh, there are a lot of training, uh, I'm sure there are a lot of training companies in Australia that do this business. Uh, there are, uh, you know, and uh, and you know, there are a lot of companies. I also provide services in that area. So there are a lot of. There lot of, uh. There are a lot of service providers.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think.

Speaker A: Lovely.

Speaker B: And so maybe searching for that global. Sorry, global competency. Cultural competency.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Um, as well. But also, um, I know that you've got a range of articles on your website as well, which is a good place to go and have a look.

Speaker A: Sure, yeah. Right. So there are lots of different. Yes, absolutely. So I think. Go ahead.

Speaker B: No, no, no, no, please. I'm excited. I want to ask another question, but um, please, um, continue.

Speaker A: I was just saying cultural differences. So there's been a lot of discussion about globalization and what impact it is having. And actually in a way, paradoxically, and based on what's going on in the world, I think it does seem that people are moving apart rather than coming together.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And uh, and I think culture is one aspect of it.

Speaker B: Yeah, of course. Um, what do you think? And for you? I'm just wondering, obviously the last couple of years Covid has been something that's impacted everyone around the world. What, what do you think that has, what has been the impact of that, do you think?

Speaker A: I think it's been quite profound, I think at different levels. And I think, uh, you know, so it has impacted companies, uh, approaches, uh, to doing business. And I was talking to someone who does a lot of business in Asia and he was saying because of COVID they could not travel and that impacted their ability to do business in those countries.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because the relationship based cultures and then, you know, and then different countries have had very varying and very conflicting COVID policies. M. Like China is, uh, I mean they have a zero Covid strategy. Yes. And I think even Australia was pretty stuff.

Speaker B: Yeah, we had some very strict, um, uh, staying at home rules, uh, for some time. And the other challenge we had was quite different at the same time across. Across different capital cities in the country. Yeah.

Speaker A: Right. So, um, so yeah, a lot of countries have had those policies and it is shifting and changing. But I think we are still not where we ought to be.

Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. Um, so what, what work are you doing at the moment? Who, what sort of, um, companies are you supporting at the moment? What are you doing with them?

Speaker A: Right. So I'm really providing them coaching and training in terms of negotiation, uh, cross cultural issues, all of that. Yes.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Great.

Speaker B: Um, and what. One of the things I'm pondering is there's, there's the real, I guess, um, overt glaring differences between some cultures.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And then others that's a bit more subtle. For example, what would be a subtle difference between, say, the English culture and the American culture that you've been more aware of?

Speaker A: Right. So, you know, I think one is their approach towards money.

Speaker B: M. Okay.

Speaker A: In America, everything is about money.

Speaker B: Yeah. Okay.

Speaker A: And I think Britain, uh, British are less so. Uh, or at least you don't overtly talk about it. Not to that, not to that same degree. That's.

Speaker B: So the, the, the openness or the readiness to discuss money. M. Openly. Much, much.

Speaker A: M. Everything about, you know, that's, that's, you know, it's the land of making money is the American dream. It's the. And, and of course, you know, obviously this is a country that has had a huge number of billionaires and the environment is friendly towards that. So that's one thing. Second, of course, you know, I think Britain is, has a much deeper, longer historical legacy. Uh, it's been a much longer settled society, America, about 200 years. So I think, uh, you know, so the British have a certain view of history and I think for America it's, uh, is the new frontier.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's a bit like in Australia being, you know, uh, uh, how we need to reconcile with indigenous people is an ongoing thing. We need to do a lot more work with here in Australia. Um, again, the short history of white people being here, um, which was settled by convicts. So.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. And then third of all, I think Americans are much more aggressive.

Speaker B: Uh, yep, yep.

Speaker A: The British, in a general sense, because cultural differences are matters of digging out of kind. So, you know, so even within Europe, I've lived in Denmark, I've lived in France, I've lived in Finland. You can also notice subtle differences there.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So Denmark is a very homogeneous country in a way. Just what, 5 million people, I think. And uh, and uh. So very closed.

Speaker B: Yeah. Whereas, I mean, America, uh, 300. Yes,

Speaker A: yes, yes, yes. So. So, you know, so I think to even understand culture, you have to understand the history, the uh, you know, where are the countries coming from?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And that is, I think also one of the issues in terms of the tensions that we are seeing between the west and China, for example. Very ancient civilization.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And, you know, or, and, and so I think. And, and the point that I'm making is that in international business you have to look at three important things. One is culture. Never also forget about history or politics. M. And third, you have to look at the context of the situation. And so which is again, I think a cultural factor because Americans don't pay attention to history. And uh, so China is an ancient civilization that's been around for even much longer than what America has been. So their view is colored by their past historical experiences. Same goes for India as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: So, you know, so the legacy of British colonialism, imperialism still writs large, both in India as well as in China.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think one of the king things you said earlier again about uh, preparation. So.

Speaker A: Absolutely, yes.

Speaker B: Culture, understanding the history, the context and ah, building that into your preparation.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And um, Uh, I think what it will do is so when you build a relationship, if you can convey to the other person that you know about their culture and are interested in learning about it, it's an easier way to build rapport.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: And uh, so I think it's good from that standpoint and I think more broadly it's also good because then you can recognize what might be feasible, what might not be feasible.

Speaker B: Yeah. And you're reminding me of, um, the global team I was working with last year.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: And uh, they were meeting online, uh, every month as a group from a number of different countries. Um, and I think what was great is that realization they came to was the way they were structuring the meeting of being very structured, very focused on our results. What are we delivering on. Didn't represent or reflect or appreciate or respect those different cultures around how we want to run that meeting.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: And where that was coming from. Because some people wanted to spend the first 15 minutes. Let's just chat and connect.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Speaker B: But this leader with all good intent was saying. Right. We just need to Update on our KPIs.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So again, I think there's that appreciation and curiosity.

Speaker A: Recognize you have to manage diversity.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And understand and to. That's why I said to build a common culture. And uh, and that comes from an understanding of what the gap is and then using tools and skill and other facilitation methods to create that. To create that. To create that overall sense of uh, you know, uh, you know, well, being or respect among the group.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Great.

Speaker B: Now I am intrigued. I need to ask you, you've mentioned before you've lived in quite a number of places around the world.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Um, which ones stand out to you? Because you've lived in some amazing parts of the world. Like, ah, which one do you wish you could go back and live in again?

Speaker A: Well, uh, that's a hard question. Um, you know, I think all countries have their own unique charms and insights. And so to tell you my story, so I've lived in the US for 20 plus years and in Europe for about 15.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: And uh, so I moved back to the US in 2014 from England and then in 20. And then actually I spent six months in New Zealand in 2019.

Speaker B: Oh, wow.

Speaker A: So. But, uh, I was in India generally from 2016 to 2020 and I eventually decided to relocate back to India to the U.S. yeah. So I've completed my journey where I started from, not from where I started from, from where I became a little settled to come back to this particular country.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Now this is a very individualized experience. So for me, I think eventually it is the U.S. yeah.

Speaker B: Wow, great. And have you lived only in the, in Philadelphia or have you lived in other parts?

Speaker A: Oh, I've lived in New York, I've lived in Boston, I've lived in California, I've lived in Columbus, Ohio. Oh, wow.

Speaker B: Great.

Speaker A: So I lived in, lived in London, Nottingham, Aaravasa, uh, Paris, uh, Ren M and Eindhoven.

Speaker B: And um, now your base is the U.S. yes. Correct. Where would you like to travel to that you haven't traveled to

Speaker A: South America?

Speaker B: Yeah. Okay. Yep.

Speaker A: Yeah, me too, me too.

Speaker B: I haven't been there as well.

Speaker A: Yes, Right, right. Yeah. South America. That's right. And some parts of Asia.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I mean I, I love, uh, the, the traveling that I do with my wife and we get to really experience the culture, um, and being to India. Well, my wife has, but I haven't. And she, she loved it. She, she spent a couple of weeks there and she thought it was fantastic. And she's traveled more than I take a trip there. Ah, right. Yes, I would, um, I would love to now that we can travel again after the last two years.

Speaker A: Now it's. Now it's. Now it's easy. Yes, yes.

Speaker B: Would definitely like to go there. And again, South America like you. Um, and this part of Europe I haven't been to that I'd love to go and experience.

Speaker A: Right, yes, yes, but go ahead.

Speaker B: I was just going to say, but yeah, when we're traveling and meeting people and hearing their stories and um, and trying the local food. Um, I think there's something just that helps, um, us connect when we do that. And I love doing it.

Speaker A: Oh, uh, wonderful. Oh, that's, that's, that's, that's brilliant. So, you know, so I think cultural travels opens a new vista for you.

Speaker B: Yes. Yeah.

Speaker A: And many people don't realize the benefits that it brings. They are, uh, conscious of the, of uh, the costs and all of it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And uh, many people are very quick. And that's the other thing I would say. Many people are very quick to make judgments and uh, in, in. In probably in any situation. But in cross cultural situations it can be dangerous. Yeah. You make judgments because you don't wear. Even when you don't have full information.

Speaker B: Yeah. Being mindful of. Yeah. Being mindful of those assumptions and, and checking those and holding those, uh, maybe a bit loosely.

Speaker A: Right. So I think the thing is that we work on our mind 90% of the time and the mind works unconsciously. Ah. And the mind likes to control things. And so too because control gives you predictability. So what the mind does is makes judgments for you. And the question is you can't make judgments when, when you don't really know fully what's going on.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: That is another challenge in cross cultural situations.

Speaker B: Yeah. Which I think, um. Definitely what's jumping out to me through our conversation today is uh, that. That curiosity and Absolutely. Those assumptions. But also something you sort of. I, uh, think so powerful there about that slowing down when you rush in. That's not going to help you.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've got to. So this gentleman, the example I gave you, this person rushed.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: He lowered his price. He could not wait. And so, uh, that also reflects time. Is very conscious of time.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: He could not deal with the delay. And uh. And he used his American model to project onto the Japanese.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: That because they have not said anything, it means that they, they're not happy with the price. So you lowered it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Great.

Speaker B: Great. And I think it's a, Again, uh, such a valuable example, um, where taking the time to understand those cultural differences.

Speaker A: Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. And again, a cultural factor because I think Asian cultures spend much more time in terms of understanding than the m. North American or European cultures.

Speaker B: Dr. Kumar, thank you so much for your time today. It's been wonderful to connect with you. And I've realized as we're talking, in my excitement I jumped in a few times when you were talking and I think that's okay.

Speaker A: That's fine.

Speaker B: Well, again, this is my awareness of my. My, uh, you know, slowing down to. To really appreciate and. And those differences. So, um, it's been so good to connect with you and learn, and I'm sure lots of people listening today would have got so much value out of this. Um, really appreciate the knowledge that you have in this area because, as you said, so important for anyone working across different cultures.

Speaker A: Right. Thank you, Mari. I think it was a pleasure to be on your show, and thank you for inviting me.

Speaker B: Yeah, thank you so much. So, to wrap things up, I have two quick questions. First one is, um, if people would like to know more about the work you do and they want to, um, get in contact with you, where should they reach out?

Speaker A: So they can go on my LinkedIn profile or on my website. Great.

Speaker B: And I'll make sure they're both linked in the show notes so people can connect with you there. So thank you. And the last question is, what's your definition of inspired energy?

Speaker A: Uh, it's. I would say it is. It is, you know, just breaking out of your old habits.

Speaker B: Oh, I love that.

Speaker A: It is. It is being very creative in creative ways.

Speaker B: I love that. And I think breaking out of those old habits and being creative is such a great summary of what we've talked about today. Um, and brings the energy. Thank you so much.

Speaker A: Right. Thank you. Thank you, Mary.

Speaker B: All the best for the rest of, uh, 2022. Thank you.

Speaker A: Same to you and hope you recover soon.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: Okay.