EP353: The Power Of Agency-Brand Collaboration For Navigating Rapid Ecommerce Technology Changes, With Nudie Jeans & Aino

Speaker A: How much do you want to push the brand and how much do you want to push conversion? With the agentic user interface you can have a much clearer separation, you can be more inspirational on the website and then you can offload some of the conversation driven or even conversion driven experiences

Speaker B: to the agents you listen to Inside Commerce, a weekly E commerce strategy, technology and CX focus podcast hosted by experienced digital consultants and RE platform specialists James Goddard. Paul Rogers get insights into ecom strategy leading brands hear from industry thought leaders and leading tech vendors with practical advice to help you improve your cx. This episode is sponsored by worldpay. I'm really excited to have an um, agency and um, brand partnership on today. Um, a brand that myself and Paul have followed for uh, many years and been really impressed with how they've executed their E Comm strategy. Uh and um, they they one of the first to do really cool things like proper um, PDP level, product part passport, um, information, um, lots and lots of interesting things to talk about. So the brand is Nudie and the agency partner uh, is Aino. And we're going to be looking at, there's multiple things but the main things you'll get from the episode is we're going to look at how they both see tech and customer trends impacting the E Comm strategy, what good looks like now for collaboration between E Comm teams and agencies and how that's evolving and then also getting some of the more modern tech discussions around the relationship between Agentia and traditional websites and how that is changing how brands are engaging with customers. So I will, I will now uh, get our guests to introduce themselves to you. So first let's get a warm welcome to Melka who's the tech lead at Nudie Jeans. Hey Melka.

Speaker C: Hey, how are you?

Speaker B: I'm good, thanks. Um, do you want to just give our listeners a flavor for who you are and what you do?

Speaker C: So my name is Melker and uh, I've been at Nudie Jeans for quite some time. I've been doing this full time since 2003 actually. But I started working with Maria who founded the brand at the very same time that she started the brand. So and I have been involved in the website ever since then trying to hack the first ones together in Dreamweaver, if anybody remembers that one. And uh, been doing lots of different things at Nerdigenes over the years. But lately uh, I've been focusing on the tech side of our E Com operations basically. Yeah.

Speaker B: Fantastic. Thanks. And David, uh, let's get you to introduce Yourself. Um, so David, who's the founder at Melker's, uh, agency partner.

Speaker A: I know I'm uh, the founder and I'm leading the tech department here at ah, I know. So I work a lot with the tech team, I work a lot with our clients and uh, we have been working together with Melpir and Nevill Jeans for I think it's almost 15 years now. So a very long and um, interesting uh, collaboration.

Speaker B: Yeah, and I love that. And this is one of the things I'm really interested in this discussion today because partnerships and strategic partnerships between agencies and brands is becoming more important as um, so much of technology is becoming automated and AI is changing the dynamics. So we're going to have lots of interesting discussion points but let's, let's start with the kind of framing about um, like the strategic piece Melka E. Ah, Comm's changing fast. Every single week there is so much being churned out about new tech, how people are using tech, what it does to them. What are the main technology and customer trends that you are focused on in your role at Nudie and how are they impacting your strategy?

Speaker C: I mean I try to keep up with what's happening of course, but then again to be completely honest I would say that we are not very trend sensitive in a way. I mean basically we are doing what we have been doing for the last 25 years and we're not following trends in that sense. And I think to some extent that applies to online as well. And I mean what are uh, the biggest trends basically? Is it AI? Yes, of course. Uh, are we following it? Yes, of course. But we are not jumping uh, on the latest fads every day really.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's quite interesting actually because um, there is, there is obviously a need to keep on top of the market and see what's happening, but not hijacking your overall strategy just because something else is trending. And especially with technology, I think there's a bandwagon in the E comm industry definitely about adopting latest technology and it might not always be the right thing to jump into straight away.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean I followed quite closely. I mean all the discussions that uh, started right after the NRF in the U.S. i mean there was so much talk about UCP and everything, agentic protocols and stuff and making your site visible for the agents and so on and I invested quite a lot of time in that. But um, then again I guess you can't really, you can't get any leverage out of it from thin air. It doesn't matter how much you do, you still rely on some kind of, what's the English word Then there needs to be a demand. It doesn't matter, I mean how much effort you put into optimizing your site for each and every protocol and schema and markup and stuff. I mean as long as you're in, in some, in some way honest about what you do and supply the info and try to be honest with your customers and true to your brand, I guess that wins in the long run. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you don't do anything of course.

Speaker B: But yeah, that's an interesting, I mean it's an interesting point actually because for some businesses where the brand is not the driver, uh, and they are selling like especially you know, selling multi brands and you're competing with lots of others then it really is a race to get greater visibility because it impacts you. Because that type of um, search query is far higher I guess for a brand where the brand is driving the interest and the attraction. The scramble to um, address uh, how AI has taken over search is probably muted for you because I'd imagine a lot of your search is coming from brand.

Speaker C: Yeah, a very large portion of the search uh, is obviously coming from brand and I mean let's be honest, of course I would want some unbranded traffic as well but I mean brand is by the end of the day the brand traffic is the most important one. And I mean to be honest I was, I wouldn't say stressed out but I mean all that bus around Geo AEO and everything, of course it caused some kind of stress but I think I've landed in that uh, you will be, I mean you're not invisible. I mean it's in the nature of the LLMs to find you if you're relevant. So and I mean do you want to be found on each and every thinkable, impossible search phrase or whatever it is, does it serve your purpose in the long run? I don't think so.

Speaker B: David, where do you see on this? Because ah, your role uh, as an agency you work across different brands with different business challenges and different bricks to market and different channel mixes. How do you see these trends managing? What are the trends that you guys keep an eye on to try and interpret, understand to help your clients?

Speaker A: Yeah, I uh, think Melker is onto something here because uh, having a brand and having the long perspective of raising the value of the brand is starting to become a real differentiator and we've seen for the past 10 or 15 years and increasing efforts of having data driven decisions on the brand websites where you are starting to look more like a, a retailer or someone who is optimizing for conversion, optimizing for the best possible price, the best possible delivery. And I uh think as a brand and on a brand website and how you kind of uh, how you portray yourself is uh starting to become more and more uh, on brand if you can say that word uh and less about only driving sales. And I think this is one of the interesting parts about the agentic way of paralyzing the um, visual experience uh you can have from a brand on a brand website and you have the agentic tools and these two ways of finding the right product might serve different purposes. And this is also an interesting uh thing to uh prototype in and test uh especially for a brand like Nudogenes. So um, we mainly work with brands and very few brands have this kind of long history and are so strong as Neody jeans are. So of course that makes it a bit uh special.

Speaker B: Ready to grow your business online with worldpay E Commerce. You can deliver fast secure payments your customers love backed by global reach and real people powered support scale with confidence and enhance your customers experience with worldpay E Commerce. So David to stay with you when I introduced this episode was talking about collaboration between brands and agencies being so important and I can definitely see it with the businesses I work, the relationships changing, um, what is a good partnership approach? Like where can agencies add real value? We've already talked about that whole GEO piece and being objective on it and not just following the hype. So where in your mind where do agencies add value and how should they add value to brand relationships like the one you have with Melka and Newdi.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think uh one of the most important parts is uh the silent understanding uh between us. So if you can hook uh into each other uh in an early stage and kind of find a starting point where we just understand uh each other as ah, I mean we can understand the brand without them telling us how it should be done. Then you can skip a lot of the RFPs, you can skip a lot of the specs, you can skip a lot of the administrative work around creating things together and just starting to uh focus on uh they can just send us a PSD file with 100 layers of paper cut figures and say hey make this a uh website and do something with this that actually converts and then we can as an agency understand the purpose uh behind the brand and we can kind of convert that into something Uh, a digital experience. I think having this kind of understanding makes the relationship very strong and very effective. Meaning, uh, we can have fewer rounds, fewer people involved and just being more integrated into the brand. So I would say m. To that point, uh, we kind of want to shift from being an agency as a vendor to being more as an agency as embedded partner. So especially when it comes to technology, um, and I think being unbiased, being transparent and being honest, uh, about choosing the right technologies, choosing the right path, always keeping in mind the brand's purpose and who they actually are and what kind of emotions they want to, you know, communicate towards the audience. Um, I think that is a very good way to kind of integrate yourself as an agency, uh, with a brand.

Speaker B: Um, what's your take on this market? You said there's been a long term relationship, right? That's, and that will have evolved. So where, where's your head as someone who's leading the tech side of a brand? Like where are you seeing the value an agency needs to bring?

Speaker C: I mean I just wanted to second David on what he said. Um, and I also wanted to add that, I mean spending as little time as possible on project management and actually spending as much time as possible on building things is also an important part of that long standing relationship. Uh, and the question again, James, it's

Speaker B: just, yeah, I guess it's um, it's how has your mindset changed over the years? Because agency relationships and brands change as the market and the business need to change. So where are you shifting in terms of the, the what you want from your agency partner and what you want them to focus on. So as in, is it becoming more strategic rather than just about developing and releasing?

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I guess our collaboration is, it's both. I mean sometimes it's very clear objectives from our end, just building, I mean campaign sites or doing this and doing that. But I mean sometimes it's very strategic as well, working with more long term things. So it's a good mix. But I think, I mean to be really honest, I mean we don't, we've been doing this for so long time now. So we are basically just executing and doing what we have always been doing. And there's not, I mean we have weekly or bi weekly check ins but other than that it's just um, business as usual. It's very little overhead. What do you say?

Speaker A: No, yeah, I agree and I think this is one of the nice parts of being a long term, you know, partner that you just understand each other and we can do things on our own we can do. We, we have an idea. We can tell Melker, hey, we want to do this. I think we think this is good for you. We can be proactive and we know we have uh, their support and you know they know that we are all doing this together. So uh, I think that just makes the core foundation of a collaboration very effortless. Um, yeah, I think that's just like the core of it.

Speaker B: Uh, question for you or not on E commerce platforms obviously you've worked together not just on the building on the Ecom platform but other third party technology and I have so many different conversations with people about what they expect from the E commerce platform. Some brands I uh work with, they want more and more features, functionality, they want it native and they want fewer third party apps. Others want a truly composable stack where they can just bring in best of breed and do it really easily and they're not so worried about the E commerce platform doing everything. I'd love to hear from your perspectives and maybe let's start Melka with you from, from the like ecom leadership point of view. What are your expectations going forward from an E Comm platform where you know, where do you think econ platforms need to get stronger and better to support E commerce teams?

Speaker C: I mean from our perspective, I mean it's not that it. We're working with Santra and we've been working with Suntra for quite some time now and uh, during all our uh collaboration with I know as well it's been basically Suntra and uh, I think it's covers our needs. But I think going forward I think the omnicommerce part is the most important one for us. Taking that even further because for us of course we have newjeans.com but we also have some 30 stores around the world which are very, very important hubs um for us because that's also where our, where our service offer takes place when it comes to repair and when it comes to handing in your old jeans and getting a discount on a new pair. But moving forward I think it all also we want to extend the offer. It's not just to ship an order from store, it's also about being able to offer unique pieces that are only available in one store for example. So it's it, it's a lot around that for us and it's in, in one way it's not that complicated and in some other ways it is quite complicated. These items should be available to buy online in this market but not in this market and this piece is just available in the store for visitors and ah, a long term, long faults like that, that's where we are right now.

Speaker B: And where do you see the um, the market evolving? What role do you think econ platforms need to play go for? Because that point Malcolm made is quite interesting because I have a few clients who have more complex omnichannel order management things and they want greater capability in the core Ecom platform rather than using additional third party tech alongside it because they just find it simpler to manage and that feels like an area that people are demanding more and more the platform. What else do you see? And we'll come on to Agentix Storefronts in a minute. Yeah, that's definitely going to be.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah of course operational uh, features is starting to become very important and owning data inside the platforms, uh, we're starting to see people building out um, in parallel with having a lot of data in the platform. They're starting to use external uh, services for populating data or you know, decorating data and it's going to be spread out in multiple vendors and having all of this data consolidate into something useful like having an agent make decisions out of it could become more and more uh, difficult. So I think focusing on the data and having as much data as possible inside the E Commerce platform will have a lot of benefits. Uh, not just for the platform but also for the brands working on the platform and providing as good tools as possible. Uh, for that data to be able to exist inside the platform is going to be very important I think.

Speaker B: Yeah, uh, first, first spot of data and data is definitely another area all the business I work with are keen on and, and that links in with the AI discussion because it's the increased appetite to have an intelligent interface to interrogate data without having to have a more technical analyst person who can interrogate and mine the data. So the ability to conversationally ask for answers to questions where it can then take the data, do the calculation. I guess this is where tools like Dema for example, they're all their market analytics stuff are really, really excellent at the moment. Um, let's go on to Agentic storefronts. So I'm really intrigued by this um, because there aren't many brands that have launched separate Agentic at the moment. Some have in its early days of looking at where they fit in in the overall customer journey and what type of use case they serve. So Melka, I'd love to hear from you first about how are you approaching this? What is the role and where do you see this adding value that the existing like you know, brand site can't achieve?

Speaker C: But just to be. So I understand the angle here. Are we talking about the agentic side that happens on the brand side or are we talking about the agentic stuff that happens on the.

Speaker B: Good question. Um, on the other side. Yeah, it happens on the dark side. So yeah, not, not any agentic um, services running on your, your standard website but where, where there's a standalone agentic storefront that's running in parallel.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean for us as a brand, I would say I might be wrong on this one but I hope it won't happen for a long time because I think the brand website still serves a very big purpose for many brands. And I mean of course there are some kinds of purchases that probably are perfect for the agentic angle but uh, it would be not just boring. I think it would be, I mean it's not, it's not in our interest as a brand really to push that development into a Gentex storefronts.

Speaker B: This is a bit, I'm really intrigued by because there are a few high ah, profile brands like Studio Nicholson who have talked about their agentic storefront. It's on a separate domain essentially you link, it's linked to, from the main website to encourage people to go into that journey uh, if the site isn't surfacing the information they need. But I find it interesting because for me as a customer I don't think oh, brand site agentic. I just think brand, brand, I've got a need. Can you give me the information? Can you provide what I, I want? And I see that as a mixture of standard like product navigation and browsing. But at the point where I need extra information then agentic capabilities in, in injected into that user journey so that it feels seamless to me and I'm not jumping all around but that's just me and I'm, I'm one person and one consumer and one consultant. So uh, I, I'm not saying I've necessarily got the right view on that but I definitely see the convergence where people go, well no, we want it all in a single place. But David, I'd love to hear your view on this. Where do you, where do you, what do you think the role of the brand's website is going to play in the future? Do you see these as separate places that are uh, delineated or do you see it as actually this is just going to become a function of a standard website.

Speaker A: So yeah, I think this is a very interesting um, discussion and uh, the brand website in from our perspective has always been very, very important. Uh, we started working with Nudigenes just for the brand, uh, and then they had like their um, web shop in another place and then yeah, it was

Speaker C: even on, it was even on a subdomain at the time. And then it was shop.nude.com.

Speaker A: yes to different lights. And it was brand first. Yeah, it was brand first. And then we had a discussion about how big the button should be for the web shop. It was small or big. I mean how much do you want to push the shop? And going from there to today where a lot of brand websites has adapted a lot of the conversion optimization, um, coming from you know, maybe larger multi brand stores and they're starting to look more and more like uh, a ah, retailer who has another you know, focus. I think uh, the brand website should always be brand first and you should always try to make the customer want to buy their products. And then maybe with the agentic development you can actually use an agentic interface to cater more for the customer who has interest, who are, have made their decision to buy this product. And I can help them get the right size, help them get the final push just like a good salesman would do in a store. And um, this makes the separation a bit clearer because as an agency we have had this discussion a lot of times with our clients. How much is, how much do you want to push the brand and how much do you want to push conversion and finding this weak balance between these two uh, things. And but with the agentic user interface you can actually have a much clearer separation. You can be more like a museum or like inspirational on the website and then you can kind of offload some of the conversation, uh, driven or even conversion driven experiences to the agents both on site and off site. But I would say on site agents is a bit more exciting at the moment than just providing off site and um, uh, tools for agents.

Speaker B: Yeah, I'm definitely, I'm definitely in agreement there because as a customer it reminds me of, of early days of E commerce when you got to a payment and you jumped to a, a hosted payment page on a completely different domain which wasn't properly branded and you suddenly that then created all the like oh, do I trust this? Is this okay? And for me if I suddenly get told I've got to leave this website to go somewhere else, it feels disjointed when the tools are there to embed into user journeys and the technology that I'm really, really interested in, and I need to spend a lot more time looking at is where there are AI tools that are uh, using intent signals, taking the data signals from the brand website to understand intent and build user profiles within the session to know that, okay, this is somebody who's never been before and they landed on this page, their intent's so low, we've got to educate them, inform them, excite them like just said, versus somebody's coming into the pdp. They've been to this, they're an existing customer and they've dropped straight in from a paid ad. Well actually let's, we can be, we can be different in our content and we can change what was shown in the messaging and the tonality and like even add more persuasion stuff in there. That's a bit, I think is really interesting from an AI point of view at the moment.

Speaker A: Yeah, and I think the discovery part about discovering products might be, be outsourced to external AI services more and more. If you can provide the right tools and the right data for external agents, then they will be able to find products for consumers who are just interested in, you know, jeans or whatever. But if you have decided that you are interested in a brand and you visit their brand store, you should be able to interact with experts, you should be able to get inspired, you should be able to have very factual based, uh, conversations about measurements about which fit is the perfect for me, about the brand story, about, you know, true knowledge about the brand. So yeah, I think uh, the identic part will kind of make it more clear about the purpose of a, uh, brand website. Whereas today sometimes it's a bit hard to kind of be clear about uh, what is the core purpose of the brand websites. Uh, and everyone says, well it should be a little bit of that, a little bit of that, a little bit of that. But I think uh, I think working uh, with an agent and working with a branded agent, combined with the inspirational possibilities in the interactive space of a website could become very interesting and become um, a good ambassador for the brand.

Speaker B: So Melka, I got a question for you related to this because I like the fact that you're not just like, let's evangelize AI and agents and that's the future, because end of the day it's not right for every user, as you pointed out. But AI is changing how we work and it's given us ability to improve automation and efficiency and take away maybe some of the more boring tasks that people don't want to do that could be left to be running. But with releasing AI, there are so many concerns about not just the, um, quality of the tech, what impact it has on the website and the performance and the customer experience, but also the brand and the brand messaging and the controls that you have so it doesn't start saying things that uh, are completely offs off how you present yourself. How do you approach that at nidi? Because brand is so critical. What you represent and your values are so critical to the new D brand. How would you approach that? How would you stop bad acting AI getting in the way of what you're trying to do?

Speaker C: I guess it's on different levels. I mean, if we look at how we use AI internally, uh, for the art directors for example, of course they take advantage of the AI tools, but it's still just support. We are not creating anything with AI out of thin air. It's just improved tools to make their job faster and better. And when it comes to things like copywriting and stuff like that, it can be fantastic tools, of course, but it's still just assisting tools. I don't believe in AI creating good brand, um, creating brand, uh, related stuff. Uh, it's rather using the AI to transform what you have. For example, so if you take the copy on a pdp, for example, I appreciate when the, when the copy is written by a human. But then of course you can take advantage of AI tools to create the different versions you need. I mean you need the meta descriptions and you need the titles for Google feeds and whatnot. So generating versions and stuff like that, perfect. But not for creating from the ground up. I guess it doesn't make sense, but I totally get it. I mean, we're fairly small brand with a, uh, limited set of products. I guess it's, it's a different thing if you sell thousands and tens and um, tens and thousands of products. But so yes, yeah, it is.

Speaker B: And this, you know, this is why we do the podcast. Because there's no right answer, is there, to how you run an E commerce business. It's got to be relevant to you, your brand, your values, your customers, your products. Um, and this is why I love having these discussions because every discussion has a different viewpoint and that's great. Um, David, how about yourself? I had a really interesting conversation a few weeks back with an agency I know in the UK and they've been very excited about how they're using CLAUDE tools internally to help them improve workflows as a development agency and partner agency and how they're helping provide more efficient services to clients as a Result, how do you guys approach it? What role does the AI tech have in you and how you then work with your clients?

Speaker A: Yeah, of course it's been uh, such a big leap for all of us working in um, with development and AIs, uh, have you know, in a very fast pace become super good at programming and generating code. So uh, of course we are taking advantage of it and it's changing the perspectives of a developer that is might be becoming more of an architect rather than just coding by themselves. Um, right now I'm seeing a little bit, you know, uh, going down and manual coding and manual code review starting to go up again because a lot of you know, vibe code and security issues that have been arising. Um, but of course using Claude and using agentic code generation uh internally has changed a lot. Uh, but I would say that producing good quality code and producing something that is lasting and uh, producing something that actually you know, is production ready still takes a lot of uh, effort from uh, senior engineers and uh, having you know, both, both things at the same time, being able to oversee the agents and kind of do have them doing the right thing, uh, is, it has improved a lot. We're also using it to um, actually uh, collaborate with our clients so our clients can have a closer access to the code base through agents and they can use agents to make plans, uh, together. Um, you know, if you have an agent that has access to a lot of the data around a website, a lot of the code, a lot of the data, a lot of the logs, product, uh, data for example, you can actually start to ask the agent, okay, we want to do this and this and this, how should we do it? And then the agent can make better plans uh, together with our clients and with us. So it's both internally but also we're starting to use it more and more externally as well, uh, for our clients.

Speaker B: And then from a, from an agency perspective, are you seeing the future as being there's going to be fewer uh, entry level developer roles and there's going to be more senior engineering because of that. Because that's what I'm seeing ah, in I guess in the relationships evolving is uh, well actually the quality and scrutiny of code and of strategic oversight of how you're building and why you're building and what the impact of that is becomes more and more important. You can automate all these low level tasks but you still need someone to have a proper framework to make sure it's been done the right way.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I think that's true. But I still think we need entry level developers, not just maybe for coding, but also for managing client requests, managing smaller uh, tasks, managing, you know, as an operational uh, agency, you still need people to handle things that are humans. Even though they might not be the best coders, they could still be really good communicators or good to explain uh, how things work and having things, making things work and uh, having things, you know. So I would say entry level coders will probably come back uh, when the, when this has kind of plateaued a bit. But um, yeah, that's what we've seen so far has been a lot of entry level coders having very hard time getting jobs. But I don't think it will last for so long. I still think we will need them in the future, but maybe for different tasks.

Speaker B: Interest. Um, I got a final question which is around roadmaps. Um, and this is always fun hearing from, from technical leads on it. And you both talked earlier about how your relationship, how you work together to do less project management and more getting on with things. How do you approach the technology roadmap? So not like the building stuff on the current platform, but bringing in new technology and how you integrate that. How do you guys approach that together? Melka, maybe you can start on this. How do you identify when you need additional tech? How do you do the assessment so that you don't spend months and months and months trying to run the project and you can get on with implementing?

Speaker C: I guess to a certain extent that goes back to what uh, David just explained about their Agentix setup, which has access to our code base. I mean if I'm just curious about the tool and what implications it would have and how complex it would be to integrate it. For example, I can just start off by asking the um, agent that Aino has set up for us, he's called Ian, um, for some strange reason, I don't know why you, David. And with that, as he has a complete access to the code base, it's very easy for me to uh, get a first impression of what implications it would have to integrate something like that. So that makes it very easy to, instead of sending David a request for some new, unknown, impossible tool, I can dig uh, around quite a lot on my own just to get a good uh, picture of uh, how complex it would be and if it's even possible. Does that make sense?

Speaker B: Yes. Yeah.

Speaker C: And then, I mean that also offloads a lot of uh, those questions that I guess most customers have or clients just uh, harassing their agent, the agencies with uh, impossible questions and requests for the latest technique that then we can kind of triage that before it reaches the developers. Uh,

Speaker B: and ever. From your point of view, you said like one of the there is, you think agencies and I fully agree should add value is by helping by pre filtering and saying look, this, this, this tech isn't right and this is why uh, this one is going to be too expensive. But these two are really, really good and we're impressed. How do you, how do you go about doing that? Because there's obviously lots of tech you look at across different projects. How do you make sense of that so that you can share those insights to help people speed up decision making?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think prototyping before, uh, you know, um, we always want to be completely uh, neutral and we see a lot of agencies, they have their preferred tech stack, they have their preferred partnerships, they have maybe some commission or whatever. So they are biased in their decisions. But if you always stay kind of neutral and build quick prototypes to test something and discuss the real value that this service might add, in the end I think uh, it helped. We want to be able to help the client make a good decision. So um, implementation costs, what are the real values? And um, yeah, just you know, trying to be as a good partner as possible in finding uh, the right tools for the client. But as Melker said, uh, AI can also help a lot in terms of um, having an estimate on how much impact something would have on a code base, how invasive it would be. Also in, in the long run, uh, do we need to change a lot in the code base? Will this make us more stuck with this vendor? Where is the data going to be stored? Uh, should we have access to the data, can we integrate it with our logs, uh, stuff like that. So there's some different perspectives but I would say the most important part is to be unbiased. Uh, and you know, kind of want to really find the best tool possible.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's what I always say to um, clients I work with is you want your partners to be opinionated but unbiased, um, because not having an opinion is not good.

Speaker A: That's true, that's very true.

Speaker B: Uh, well gents, I really appreciate, I could, I could ask loads and loads more questions but I appreciate you both have working days to get on with. So look, thank you for taking the time to have a chat and conversation. Really enjoyed learning more about your relationship together.

Speaker A: Thank you as well.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker B: Um, and thanks to everyone for listening. If you've got any other questions, want to learn more. Do Reach out. All the contact details are on our Lander page. As always, you're listening to the Inside Commerce podcast. Hosted by experienced consultants James Gert and Paul Rogers. Inside Commerce is your fast track to digital knowledge, featuring interviews with leading e commerce retailers, industry thought leads, and the C suite of key tech companies. M To explore the latest in digital strategy, customer experience, and tech. Discover what the latest trends really mean, and get practical advice based on experience to help fine tune your e commerce strategy and tech stack. Follow us on LinkedIn and reach out to James or Paul if you'd like to discuss an ecommerce project. We hope you enjoy the latest episode.