We Let a Pimple Go Viral and It Worked | Innovantage Podcast #52

Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to another episode of the Innovantage podcast where business meets tech to bring you your competitive edge. As always, I'm your host Max, and it is my ongoing job and duty to explore that edge between business and tech and to find out something interesting for us to discuss. Today's episode is going to be focused on on practical AI. AI that is used for solving people's problems here and now and not in a very theoretical future sense, but in the actual practical sense. And we are going to be looking at that through the lens of business and through the lens of skincare. To help me on that journey is Dr. Aquila Ignatayte. And welcome. Welcome Aquila.

Speaker B: Hi. Thank you for inviting me.

Speaker A: So you are the founder of System Aquile and you currently have clients to 1 million users globally. Right. So tell us a little bit about yourself. So how did you become a doctor, how did you found the company? And how does your role lead you to this point in your life?

Speaker B: Actually doing my PhD was never my purpose at the beginning. Like I studied in Lithuania economics. Then I left Lithuania to Germany to do my mba. And um, I don't know, after mba I was like uh, I think I'm not ready, not finished yet. So let's move to, you know, to PhD as needed. Very normal. And when I met my doctor father, like the advisor who advised me on my PhD, my professor, he was like, you know, you need to go into the data, you need to do statistics because you have the background from economics, do it. And I was like oh MG I don't know how to do this. I'm not really that into the data science. So I got a second professor and he was like okay, no, you need to do our statistics, like learn coding and all these things. So it's how basically I moved into the data, um, you know, not by choice but basically by force. And I learned a lot of things. And after I did my PhD, when I went to business, did my uh, I worked in an M and A in finance and really learned a lot of financial things, how business is run. But somehow it didn't felt really right for me and I was like I want to try my own business and if it not now, then um. So that's why I left corporate world and moved into the startup. So it was a lot of learning but it's how System Aquila was born. It was quite long journey to the 1 million users. But I think when you find this product market fit then it's like I would say quite easy

Speaker A: That's a nice way of putting it because I speak to a lot of startup founders and I speak to a lot of fund managers and just investors in general. And finding that product market fit is like 90% of all of the things that we talk about, because for a very long period of time, a startup can do that. So would you say that systematic is already at that front where you have found your market fit?

Speaker B: I really think we found the product market fit, and it's literally based on data, you know, how much we pay for user acquisition, how long users stay in the app, all the virality on all these things. So we found a product market fit for audience, but it was really a long journey with few pilot, um, because we started as a medical app. Indeed. Um, and like Millennium app for Millennium users and very technical. Millennial. I'm millennial. So it was really how I imagined that the app for skin health could be. And it just didn't work. User acquisition was €4, literally. And we couldn't get people into the app. Nobody was understanding the app. It was so technical. Um, and then, um, I was like, okay, do we want to kill it, you know, the app, or do we want to pivot? And we started thinking, okay, maybe let's try to pivot and see what will happen if we will go a little bit more broad instead of being very medical and more into lifestyle wellness. And, um, um, one of my team members, she was like, you need to go on TikTok. And I was like, oh, no, I don't want to be on TikTok. I don't understand TikTok. It's not, you know, what makes the, uh, brand, uh, identity, you know, via, like, more medical and, you know, all these things. And somehow TikTok, it's fun and all, you know, crazy. And she was like, no. And then we went on TikTok and started learning about our audience. And then, you know, we saw, okay, this is product market fit. Not what I think works, but actually what the data, what the market tells to us, what we want from a product. So it completely changed my mindset, how we develop the product now, like, it's like, I can like many things, but at the end of the day, you know, reality hits you in the face.

Speaker A: True.

Speaker B: You launch a product and you see market feedback, and it's the same we did with pimsy before we even went and coded pimsy. I was like, let's launch on TikTok and see if people will like it.

Speaker A: M. So the other way around this time.

Speaker B: Absolutely. No code written, just two people doing um, the videos and testing pimsy. And now over 50,000 followers for pimsy. Um, so then I said, okay, now let's move and build the mvp.

Speaker A: Well that's very cool and I want to talk about those things. But before we do, do give those of our listeners who are unfamiliar, familiar with System Equivale, what is it that you do specifically?

Speaker B: We have an app for Gen Z and Gen Alpha for skin and health topics. We started with skin and pimples like acne prone skin. But now we are moving into more broad approach addressing nutrition, well being, um, habits because skin is the largest organ in our body. But we are still addressing this as beauty issue. So um, and for us we started seeing from the data that more users are moving away from just targeting like pimples, wrinkles like um, big pores and moving into general skin health topics. So um, that's why we decided to go a little bit broader. Actually today in the app stores we already launched one collaboration with Dr. Dr. Stefan Bart, who is um, scientist in longevity and skin cell. So it's our first expert collaboration. So it's very exciting.

Speaker A: Oh, nice. Congrats. Congrats on that. Uh, so what does your typical user look like? Are they more like a teenager somewhere like in Europe, or is it more like a mid, like higher level Gen Z? I guess Gen Z starts somewhere in the late 90s I think. Right.

Speaker B: The oldest sweet spot is between 12 to 21.

Speaker A: So younger people then younger people, Gen

Speaker B: Z and now Le Gen Alpha.

Speaker A: Okay, makes sense. And where are they Geographically?

Speaker B: You would say around the globe. But mostly we have really strong base in Europe. We have really strong base in Southeast Asia, um, India, Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh. And now we are starting to see quite good traction in Africa, Nigeria, Kenya and South Africa as well.

Speaker A: Uh, well it's a very diverse type of markets first and foremost from a business sense, type of users, from the product sense and generally like different types of skin. Honestly from the skin sense, does that influence how you build your product at all that diversity?

Speaker B: Actually from the beginning, as a data scientist, I said our main hypothesis is that uh, data is under skin is underrepresented in data, especially not bite skin. That's why we made the app available globally. So we really start getting users from around the globe and getting the data in the app. So it's what we did. But one thing, what we need to understand about Gen Z and Gen Alpha, even if we live in India, if we live in Nigeria, if we live in Germany, we Have still very similar in behavior because this behavior is shaped by social media.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: So um, I always say one global community, we try to adapt small things, but still the app is in English, the app is in one language, but all features are quite similar for everyone around the globe.

Speaker A: That's cool. That's cool. Do you notice any differences in user behavior around the globe or is it also very similar?

Speaker B: Maybe a little bit. Mostly it's um, from the, I would say market entry point of view. Ah. For the users. Some markets are maybe already more advanced in the consumer behavior. Um, and some are still very early in the consumer behavior figuring things out. So that's why um, we always see, okay, how to help them to understand faster things, um, what we can do in our communication. Maybe simplify the communication then due to scientific and all these um, topics.

Speaker A: Makes sense. Makes sense. It sounds like a very hard balance to strive for. How do you manage it? Do you have a huge team or is it just dedication that helps you go through it?

Speaker B: No, the team is very lean. When the AI, uh, when ChatGPT came and AI started, we cut all the middle team members like product manager, product owner, et cetera. So the team is very lean, um, and we use a lot of AI, but they are data driven and the app is used globally. So we get the data daily and we see the trends. We see, okay, um, how the consumer is behaving, how the user is behaving in Asia, how it's like um, behaving in Africa and what we can learn and how we can adapt and what we can do to improve a product.

Speaker A: Mhm. Okay. Makes sense so far. And since that's, I uh, wouldn't call it a pivot, but transition from more human based labor to AI based labor. Have you noticed any difference in the output? So maybe the quality has risen or gone down or more or less the same when you gotten more lean versus when you were less lean.

Speaker B: I would say productivity increased crazily. Like all these weekly uh, calls and meetings, we just again killed somehow Today we're in killing mode. Um, no, we stopped doing them because team is leaner. So now it's easier to communicate faster between the team members. So you don't need this middle people to get involved. And um, then you update them, then we go down and update the rest of the team members. So you have always this communication I call broken telephone loops. So now it's completely gone. So the speed what we have now is just insane. From my own perspective. Sometimes I complain that people work too Fast. I was like literally people, oh my God, can you work a little bit slower? Like, I cannot keep up. Um, so it's like internal joke. Uh, but when I talk to my investors, like my team is now so fast. And in the past we had so much operational things, um, HR and all these topics. So AI definitely increased, uh, productivity extremely. And today I was reading one study that for people who are already very technical and into AI, it increased productivity like this. But like for people who were not very technical and not very into all these digital things. So AI doesn't add any productivity increasement.

Speaker A: Interesting. I can definitely see that happening, like when you have the data. I talk about data a lot on this show and one of the key things that help implement AI is always having access to data, having correctly structured data. And it all comes down to data, you know, garbage in, garbage out. If you don't have it, you don't have it. So for a technical company it's much easier to do that, I'm guessing, especially with you at the helm, who has such a focus on robust data. Um, so yeah, you've mentioned several times that it has taken you a long time to get to this point. So how much time has actually passed since you founded the company?

Speaker B: Uh, I think almost too long. We did a pivot in 2021, late 2021. So the thirst was literally failure. The Thirst app, I would say we just didn't close a company, um, raised some money on the existing and moved into the pivot. So that was really awesome that existing investors still believed that we will be able to pivot from like, I wouldn't say disaster, but it was like literally, you know, the lesson product market fit. You know that you can do a lot of preparation and have strategies and fancy decks, but then you launch and reality hits you in the face. You know, you see people do not understand your product. Yeah, then you missed the mark. So, um, and from 2021, um, the main focus was literally growing user base, getting that data be there quite early with Gen Zs. Like we started seeing Gen Z Traction, um, and Genal for traction already in 2023 when Sephora kids was not a topic yet. Now it's everywhere in the media that kids go to Sephora to skincare shops and buy products. What's not right for them for that age? Um, and we started seeing this trend in 2023 already that kids are buying like adult products for the skin, what we shouldn't be buying. Um, so we saw already many trends. Just the industry needed some time to pick up the same with India. Um, India we started seeing growing 2023 in the UP and it was like going around everywhere. But can you tell me about Indian skincare market? Like, do you know what's happening there? And German accelerator came to me and they, hey, we have, um, the sales cohort in India. Do you want to go to India? And like, even some of my investors like, do you really want to do this? Like, omg, Why India? It's like, why not like. And I was so scared, like, going to India alone. Like, none of my team wanted to go with m me because everyone was telling those horrific stories how they got food poisoning, the worst food poisoning in their life and all these things. So nobody wanted to go with me to India. Like, literally. Um, I was like, okay, I will go alone. Um, the German accelerator. So from 10 startups just to went literally to India. And what I saw in 2023, already in India, I was like, I think we have a product market fit. It's exactly the right timing. It will be huge soon. And now we see that Indian skincare market is booming. Companies are moving, um, to this market. I told you.

Speaker A: So what's made you do this? Is it just a feeling that you had or is it also data based, where you sit through some data to make that decision to focus on India?

Speaker B: It was like we woke. I woke up in the morning and we had 50,000 users from India. It was like, I was like, why? Explain me some of some. I think not TikTok, but Instagram reel went viral. And, you know, people start sharing because it was funny somehow. And unlike, um, we just had users in the app. And I was like, is it boss? And everyone, my analyst checking, everyone doing, you know, analysis on India, it's like, okay, let's wait. Next day, like, next day we woke up again, like, you know, 10,000 users, uh, from India. I was like, okay, we own something, you know, let's start checking. So basically, it happened by accident. Like, we didn't plan it, it just happened. But it makes sense. When I went to India, it was for me like, Gen Z in Europe is Gen Z in India. You know, all the girls on the streets, crop tops, you know, uh, doing the real. So it's like, it makes sense.

Speaker A: Well, I'm happy for that sort of success for you. And off camera, we talked a little bit about the blind spots that exist for skin, hair, skincare tech, generally speaking. And you mentioned that a lot of that tech is based on whiter skin and a lot of data that already Exists, exists on not the types of skin that many people out there have. Is that still true? Is that something that you hold to as a belief?

Speaker B: I think it's because we got the data very early, especially from these markets and all the APIs we used in the app, um, because it was not overtack, uh, we use some APIs, we start seeing strange data coming back. You have really good results on white skin, very clear, uh, data. And on darker skin tones, it becomes somehow no pimples. But you look at the picture and you see that person has pimples. But the AI says no pimples detected. And I started looking and I was like, somehow it does not really make sense. And started talking to companies and, you know, some told me, yeah, you know, you need, um, very good quality pictures. And I was like, tell to someone who is in India and maybe using iPhone, not iPhone, but like, um, a simple Android phone would cost like, I don't know, $10 and maybe the camera is not the best. So why nobody is building tech what works for large group of people instead just for those who can afford iPhone phones. Like, I don't understand this. And I started going and being very vocal about this because it's not just that it's not right, but like, we need to address these things. But some technology is still being very biased.

Speaker A: And how do you address that in your own company?

Speaker B: That's a really good question. How we address this. From the beginning, um, we made very clear that we do not judge even in the data or how we build the recommendation systems. But we are very open, um, to the different cultures, to the different lifestyles and that we really try to understand this. It's the one thing, like how the tech is being built, but also when we think about different features, what we want to launch. For example, we don't have, um, any product recommendation in the app, or we don't do any ingredient that you can scan a product and you will get a list. Is it bad or good ingredient for your skin? Because at the end of the day, this data is based on Western research as well. So someone who is into Ayurveda or natural products, um, you will build a tech and it will say, no, it's not good, it's, um, not scientific.

Speaker A: Sure, but like,

Speaker B: who said this? You know why you're judging this? Like, if someone is into Ayurveda, like when I was in India, I went to Ayurvedic doctor and I was like literally sitting and giggling at the beginning because I couldn't understand and my mentor, she was like, Aquila, Ayurveda. We have for 2,000 years. Like, how long is Western medicine? Um, and over 80 percentage of Indians believe in Ayurveda. So who are you to judge us?

Speaker A: So can you explain what that even is to a Westerner's perspective? So I personally am very ignorant on the topic of the differences in medicine,

Speaker B: generally speaking about Ayurveda.

Speaker A: Yeah,

Speaker B: like, I think they believe and, and they just do not do like blood, like, um, test or something. Ah, they measure the doshas. Like, like, I, I don't want to say.

Speaker A: You don't want to sound culturally insensitive

Speaker B: because, like, I was like not very constant, treated better than I did this, um, in a new daily. But like they are more into natural medicine. Um, and that what it's not scientifically, Scientifically proven things. Um, but if it works for them and it works for many people. So for me it's okay. Um, and that's the philosophy what we are pushing as well, because now we work with Ayurvedic doctors as well. We have Ayurvedic content in the app. Because I understood you cannot be so ignorant. You know, we sit in Europe with all our medicine and our approaches and we say, what are you doing? Like, why are you doing this? And now I'm like, if it works for you, so m. Why not?

Speaker A: Sure, sure, that makes sense. That makes sense. And again, off camera, you've mentioned several times that you want to be super clear that the solution itself is not a health care solution. Right. You're not providing health care services. You are more so towards the skin care specifically. So where do you draw that line? What is and isn't healthcare and what do you focus on?

Speaker B: I wouldn't even say skincare. Like, we see ourselves more in this preventive, educational context because having diagnosis, like, even if you know, again, you have pimples, you have acne, so what?

Speaker A: Yeah, you're still there.

Speaker B: Uh, and for us, we see ourselves much earlier into usage journey. It's about the prevention, about education, about helping people to figure things out, um, about their own health and skin health. And it's really about building awareness. Um, now we are in discussion to work with one company in primary wound care. Um, it's not even skincare anymore. It's literally all these small cuts when to put a plaster, et cetera, and prevent bigger diseases. So, uh, obvious topics. So for us, it's really moving into behavioral change before we even talk about diagnosis. Because going to dermatologist is one thing. Um, but understanding what works for you is completely different journey.

Speaker A: So then talking about those different types of users all over the world, thousands, hundreds of thousands of them, and giving those sorts of education and guidance, I'm, um, guessing there is a lot of challenge to adapt to different types of users. Some users have a budget of, I don't know, like thousands of euros per month to dedicate to their skin. Others have nothing. And is there something that you can do on the app side to cater to both of those, or do you set a specific goal where everybody needs to reach to be successful?

Speaker B: Not really. For us, it's really still, uh, uh, a little bit more earlier before you even think about the product. Because at the end of the day, you know, it can be, you know, expensive products work for you, maybe someone cheap works. It's like, it doesn't matter. It's like at the end of the day, what works for you, works for you. It's good even if it's soap. But like, it's more about really educating people on different things. Why do you need routine? What does it mean, um, of having a routine? What does it mean of having hygienic rituals? What does it mean, um, nutrition in my routine, should I look into this habits? How can I change them? Do I need to change habits? Um, and all these things? So we see ourselves literally more into this education part. And this education part is not easy because nowadays kids are used on, you know, three second TikTok frames and moving very, very fast. So, uh, making things where you need to sit and think a little bit, you know, and think, hey, does it make sense for me? Should I change something? Should I try something new? Or maybe what they learned on TikTok, it's not completely true. Um, so it's not that simple. So, uh, sometimes companies come to me like CMOs or CEOs and say, what is the secret sauce? I was like, oh, yeah, few millions. And I will tell you, it's basically really trying to understand the audience and how to make them to engage with topics that are good for them. And it's the same what I try to now talk to industry leaders. Everyone is now into the Sephora kids. The kids go to Sephora and buy products what they do not need. But it's. And you know, some are, oh, we need to ban it, we need to blame parents, we need to blame social media. But you know, at the end of the day, nobody is trying to help them to understand what they need. And you know, because banning and blaming never helped for teenagers you know,

Speaker A: maybe one of these days, you know, when you tell them something, they will learn from it. But probably not today.

Speaker B: No. And it's like blaming and banning. I think we just want more. And then uh, if nobody is doing this then you have people, some influencers, looks, max people or whatsoever coming and spreading topics that are actually harmful. But they have this virality on social media. So we really need to think a little bit around and think, okay, how we can use these topics, good topics with purpose, but still have this virality, um, entertainment and all these things.

Speaker A: So from your experience then how do you find that balance? Is it by, you know, maybe following some trends and adding your own experiences onto them? Or is it the other way around where you have some data that speaks to a specific thing that nobody talks about and then you focus on that thing or is it something else?

Speaker B: On social media we go with a flow basically with uh, trends. We have trends and we say, okay, education. Now we use pimsy a lot for this because it's easier with um, AI figure, AI character to do the content than with humans. Um, and in the app we do our own research to understand, okay, what is that trend and how we can use the data to support the hypothesis. For example, we did in January a study on beliefs, um, how beliefs ah, influence understanding of skin health. Is it a geography, is it age related, is it maybe gender related? Because we have boys and girls in the app and then we learn that it's basically what we learn on social media and it's no matter if someone is based in Hamburg, if someone is based in Mumbai. Like these beliefs are so similar because they learn on social media. So and it changed like a little bit. Like, okay, like making with like um, personalization based on geography mostly makes no sense anymore. It's like literally you need to target these beliefs and really, you know, help them to improve. Um, we know it.

Speaker A: So what then are those beliefs that you can target? Is it like, I don't know that my skin can get better by just preventative things or like what's, what's the core usually that you resonate with?

Speaker B: Um, from our study we saw that like for example my skin is dirty, that's why I'm getting pimples. Like chocolate causes pimples. It's like very uh, self blaming. And all these beliefs are actually trending on social media because someone says, oh, you are getting pimples because you're using makeup, you're getting pimples because you are not uh, looks maxing.

Speaker A: I was going to say that most of these advices are exactly what my mother would have told me when I was a teenager. You're getting pimples because you're dirty, because you're not eating right, because you're not sleeping right. She wouldn't tell me about Luke smacking. That's at least that we have.

Speaker B: Everyone is laughing,

Speaker A: but that is true. That is true. Like, social media is dominated by a lot of falsehoods. So what is the truth then behind it? What causes pimples, for example, since we are talking about that already.

Speaker B: What causes pimples? It's complicated. That's the thing. Uh, you know, you have this, uh, biology, but you know, your pores get blocked and you know, bacteria moves in and you get pimple because inflammation starts. But like, why it happens. Genetics, stress, nutrition. It can be so many things. Allergies, not enough sleep, too much sleep. Chocolate, uh, maybe, you know, for someone, someone can eat chocolate. I don't know. Every day, each day, each hour, and have perfect skin. And for someone is different. So nobody really knows. So that's the one thing. But it's like not about self blame that you are doing something wrong. Most people do a lot of things already. They have routines. They have mostly too many products. I have too many products break out from a product because I overdid something. But it's genetics and it's so many things you cannot change. And imagine you're like 12 or 13 or 15 and when you have this feeling that you are doing something wrong and then, uh, these influences come around and then say, hey, I will give you the quick way out of this. You just need to look smack out of this, um, and inject some m crazy things in your body. Um, and kids say, oh, cool, I want to follow this trend. So then it starts, um, becoming very dangerous because experts, instead of going on social media, now you see more dermatologists on social media and experts. But it's still not enough because there are too many people, I would say, who have opinions and say, you know, I'm expert because I have an opinion. So that's where I see, you know, where this head. Like we don't judge anyone. We don't judge kids. Uh, we don't say, you know, you are doing something wrong. We really try to give them right tools to just try things out and then really, you know, thinking. Okay, we see now from TikTok with 65 percentage of, of kids who come to pimsy are boys. And um, first data from TikTok we into gaming. So uh, what we can do in the app to have a small gaming experience. We are not gaming app. But what can we do? So now, um, my team is working on the missions. We will be launching missions because not to do list because nobody wants to do to do a to do list.

Speaker A: Yeah, that sucks.

Speaker B: Yeah, that sucks. So now it will be like we are working on missions. Like it's too late to do. Yeah, but it's a mission.

Speaker A: It's gamified, it's, it's trendy, it's, it's mission M. It's a to do list for the TikTok generation.

Speaker B: Not for TikTok generally. Exactly. So now we are working on missions, um, because kids are into gaming now and nobody wants boring to do list anymore. So let's do missions.

Speaker A: Yeah, I know how that's like. I think that's part of the reason why Duolingo, uh, is so popular. And part of the things that they are being criticized heavily for is that their gamification is so great. And they also have like a digital mascot with their bird and everything. Uh, but at the same time, some people understand and notice that they're not learning languages that much with Duolingo, but they do enjoy the process of clicking stuff and completing missions and doing things. And funnily enough, many people may not know this, but language, uh, is not the only thing that people can learn there. For example, my wife started learning chess there and I play chess personally. And I've always tried to get her to play with me, but it was always too long of a process. Mhm. She would get bored somewhere along the way. And she's very competitive and she likes to win. She's like, okay, let's play something where I can beat you with. So we never gotten too far along, but with this she actually has that kind of drive of okay, I need to complete like the mission. I have one game that I need to kind of win against the AI. And I'm uh, happy that she's actually doing that process finally.

Speaker B: So yeah, actually Duolingo inspired Pimsy because I was thinking like, I like Duolingo as well. Like I tried learning Italian on um, um, Duolingo. But like, you know, sometimes like I was like, I don't know if I need this word, like tartaruga, like why I need tartaruga at turtle. Like, you know, I was like going to Rome and I was like, the only thing I learned is tartaruga. I cannot order food. Like, I cannot. But like, I know Turturuga. It was like, all the time. Mr. Turuga was coming, and I was like, why do I need this?

Speaker A: Like, like, literally.

Speaker B: But, like, the process is fun. Um, and for my team, I was, like, seeing this duolingo owl, I think, on. On social media so much. Uh, and I was like, I want something like this too. And my team was pitching different things, and I was like, I don't feel it. I don't feel it. And it was like, I think three or four months process. Everyone was coming, and then my designer, she came and she was like, let's do a pimple. I was like, I don't know. Pimple is not cute. Can pimple be cute? I don't know. And she was like, I have an idea. And then she came with Pimsy, and I was like, yeah.

Speaker A: So we've danced around this quite a while. So tell us what Pimsy is. Like, what function does it serve? Like, what is its?

Speaker B: Pimsy is a digital figure, a character, but it's also influencer. It's also educator. So Pimsy is its own being almost. You know, Pimsy has a character, and Pimsy is pimple. Um, and Pimsy talks about skin health, about skincare, has friends, has lifestyle omega.

Speaker A: It's hard for me to imagine, like, what kind of lifestyle can a pimple have?

Speaker B: Like, Pimsy. Like, we launched now because everyone is doing, uh, watching this, um, fruit Love Island. So we launched on Pimsy. Like, Bimsy has a TV with friends. Oops, sorry.

Speaker A: No way.

Speaker B: Um, and Bimsy is watching now. Ingredient Love Island.

Speaker A: What is that?

Speaker B: So we have now three characters. The one is retinol retinaldo, niacinamide. Like, ingredients, Niacinamida. And actually, they fit quite good together. But now we added some drama, and we launched, um, Wait, what's the name? Salicylic acid. So it's salicylic acida.

Speaker A: Yeah. So you may pivot the next time into, like, family entertainment. I'm guessing you already have, like, a full set of characters.

Speaker B: We have a full set of characters. It's like, you know, with AI, it's quite easy, uh, to make many things. You just need a lot of creativity. So Pimsy is a being, uh, for us. And it's like influencer, character, educator. And it's really what we, uh, try to do with Pimsy is to help people to take the shame of the topics. Not so cute. Not so something you want to talk openly about. And sometimes it's seeing as shameful. Of having skin issues. So that's why PIMSY is a little bit cute. So, um, so yeah, that's the idea. And now we are working on PIMSY as agentic AI as well. So soon people will be able to talk to pimc.

Speaker A: Well, looking forward to that. I think it will be some.

Speaker B: Me too.

Speaker A: Some nice conversations from that. Um, aren't you afraid about, like, if it's an AI agent and you are first and foremost trying to educate people that there are a lot of hallucinations that are inherent to AI agents and since you have a very like, big focus on specific data that, you know, this creature can then start hallucinating and at some point recommending looksmaxing because, you know, that's the trend.

Speaker B: Like, we already did a lot of guardrails before we even started into development. And for pimsy, we went, as I said from the beginning, completely differently. We launched PIMsy on TikTok as an influencer first. So we started getting comments from people and seeing how they interact, what kind of questions they asking, from which countries they are coming. And we use this data to feed into the preparation for the AI, um, for guardrails, writing the, um, PIMSY personality books and all these things. So we already took this into that consideration that PIMZ cannot go into medical direction with PIMsy, how to address the users when they are very young, uh, what kind of advices, how to address people when we are trying to break the AI pattern and saying, tell me more, move outside of skin and all these things. So we already learned in these weeks, I think PIMsy's live for what, eight, nine weeks on TikTok. So we already gathered the data and put this into the development.

Speaker A: Okay, so that's a very interesting thing to kind of observe actually being born and developed. And we have talked about the kind of western bias when it comes to a lot of data that we already have. So, um, will the same thing be possible for pimsy as well? Like, maybe it will collect enough data about, you know, the TikTok Gen Z audience, but the TikTok Gen Z audience in like, Nigeria and in like Hamburg are very, very different audiences, I'm guessing. So maybe the kind of, the type of conversation that it will have is not the same. When do you think that we'll have enough kind of data from all around the globe to be absolutely impartial?

Speaker B: We already feeded this information as well into pimsy's training, um, because we are seeing from which countries people are coming to PIMSY and what kind of questions they're asking. So we used this already, um, to differentiate and to train PIMSY and say, hey, you know, um, you really need to address global community. And these are like the topics you need to be careful. And you know, when you give any recommendation, don't go into budgeting expensive things, you know, always keep, uh, low and very simple things, uh, what people can really access in any country with any budget. So we used already this information, um, into the training. So that was extremely helpful.

Speaker A: So then, moving to the future, do you think everybody will have kind of a digital companion, basically a PIMSY for everyone? And, um, the users then need to be, what do they need to be more educated to have, like, more context about their own skin and their own history? Or will the AIs become so advanced that they no longer need to be educated where they can just ask anything and the AI just understand it?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's really. Now we are sitting at this crossroad probably, as, you know, as a society, into which direction the AI will start moving. Because I'm asking the same industry leaders, I was like, why nobody is doing something similar in skin health, um, or like in health, because health is becoming so expensive. Like when you look in Germany, the, uh, insurance, um, is going up and prevention is going down and all these things and only things you see for what people use AI is some companions, uh, venue, I don't know, digital girlfriends and all these things, um, why nobody is doing so. That's the one question. So will it become mainstream, um, in Western countries, I saw already in China, they have this, um, devices where you can come and scan your vitals before you go to a real, uh, medical, um, like hospital or something. They check. And if you need, the AI sends you to the hospital. So probably it will come. But how this experience will look, we will see. So my bet is on PIMsy, of course.

Speaker A: No bias there.

Speaker B: That's objective truth.

Speaker A: Then. Um, my question would be, I guess most people aren't happy with how their skin looks like. Right?

Speaker B: Like most teens.

Speaker A: Yes, teenagers especially. Um, will you have enough data to predict a lot of things of how their skin development may go, including that complexity that you have mentioned, you know, genetics, environments, like your own routines, your own, like biases and everything else. Or will it still be a back and forth between a human and an AI?

Speaker B: I still. My question is, do we really need this? Because what we see in our data that before they come in the app, they are already unhappy with the appearance of their skin even if they do not have any medical skin condition. So it's like we talk about the generation that is growing up on social media using all these beauty filters and then the reality you have um, on social media doesn't match the reality. How you look in reality and you know, all these imperfections, what you think it's, it's imperfect. So can AI change this in a good way or it will really become, you know, that people will start looking more and more artificial and you know, use all these um, medications and crazy things to look more and more like unnatural and you know, again, Max, Max looking or looking next or like, um, that's the one question. So for us I think, you know, that I should help maybe people to understand that maybe it's not that bad how you look in the reality. So instead of giving, you know, oh, you have five pores and two pimples and it's drama, maybe you know, say hey, you know, actually you look beautiful and you're awesome and these are ah, five tips what you can do to improve your sleep, nutrition and I don't know, your mood. Yeah, instead of focusing just on looks.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's, that's very insightful advice as well. Like looks come as a kind of culmination of everything else. It's very hard to look good when you haven't slept in two days regardless of the healthcare products or skincare products that you're using.

Speaker B: And it's probably perception, like literally how you feel about yourself. So I think helping people to improve this perception, uh, it's like it should be the focus instead of really, you know, telling how, you know, you have two pimples and five pores and two wrinkles and you know, you need this and that product. So maybe uh, helping people to optimize the perception, it's like you know, should be the goal.

Speaker A: Uh, that's a very lofty goal. That's a very one interesting one. Um, then looking towards the future and we have started talking a little bit about it, uh, what would be the future for your company? Do you want to become like a billion dollar enterprise or do you want to invest into different kinds of care as well? Like what's the next step?

Speaker B: The next step, we want to become the leading platform for Gen Z Engine Alpha. This is our audience. We're growing globally and we want to be the number one for them. And is it just skin? It's okay. Is it more health topics? We are very open for this. Same with partners. And the next step, what we will be doing. We want to expand with pimsi, um, in China because we're already strong in Asia, Southeast Asia. So the next step should be the Chinese market.

Speaker A: That's a very hard market to penetrate with any software solution.

Speaker B: I know. So we will probably try the same idea what we did with pimsy, launching on social media in China and seeing how the feedback is. Um, and Van Lake, if we can start going with pimsy and then with the app.

Speaker A: Well, we will see. We will see. Good luck to you. Fingers crossed everybody. Hold your fingers crossed. Um, then, um, along that journey to kind of simplify it for founders that are still trying to find their market fit or still struggling. Maybe before that pivot happened for you, what would be kind of the one metric that you would always keep track of regardless of, you know, day or night?

Speaker B: Oh, uh, like one metric, it's really hard to say. Like, you know, we have multiple metrics, but like I always say from my own perspective, you know, do strategies on the weekends, execution is what counts. And launch really fast. You know, don't do too many strategizing because otherwise you will fall in love with your own decks, with your own strategy papers. And at the end of the day, product market fit, it's mostly different, was written in the slides. So learn from the market really, really fast. And like, it's better to fail fast, you know, than fail in very long time. And, and you know, so that's really my advice to the founders. And it's like, it's how I do now, you know, uh, coming from academia was really hard to learn this thing because in academia we do a lot of research before we do anything. We do research months, years research.

Speaker A: Yeah. But uh, still, what would be the metrics then that you track when launching fast and failing fast as time to market maybe or general kind of healthcare metrics of your users retention, retail, something else.

Speaker B: We track all these metrics, retention, daily installs. Wow. Um, we see as well when we get new markets, how the deletion rates look when the user bounce and what does it mean, what kind of audience we're attracting and why it doesn't work or works in that market. Time spent in the app. Um, the same for pimsy. Uh, when we launched on TikTok, we said, okay, let's go for followers, let's go for engagement and not just be there and, you know, be and post each day. Like really, you know, get the metrics. And in the app we also track the data and see, okay, how many data points we Are collecting for users going up, is it going down? What does it mean for us? Um, and how we can improve, you know, the behavior through that time. Like, um, is it changing or is it like how the trends move and what we need to do in really quick time? Like with gaming, things we saw. Okay, the audience is now into gaming more. Like how we can adapt a product to this.

Speaker A: Again, data, data.

Speaker B: Data, data. Ah, yeah.

Speaker A: The more data you have, the better you are positioned to actually understand and

Speaker B: really look into the data. It's like each morning I wake up, I go on, um, analytics and check all the met because if you don't do this, you know, always like, if you're like, oh, I'm so busy, I cannot, you know, and then you see, oh, app was crashing because login was not working. And you know, if you released a product, you know, that was not tested enough, um, and you know, and then you have like hundreds of bad reviews, you know, I cannot log in. Yeah, so all of these things.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. What would you say then is the most kind of overrated thing currently within the skincare market that will probably go away, moving into the future?

Speaker B: Uh, I don't want to say this. I really think with these pace scanning technologies, at some point they will need to pivot because most of them are very, I have a feeling not just the data is lagging for different, um, skin colors, but also it's feeding their insecurities. And I was like, each time when I have investors demo or something and even investors are doing a face scanning and each time, OMG M. I'm getting the results back and I was like, it's not direction I want to have. Wow, cool, cool. You know, and not like omg, the results are coming back. So. And just like literally feeding your insecurities.

Speaker A: So. Yeah, well, hopefully feeding your insecurities will go away at some point because that's, I feel like that's just the current environment. Regardless, not even talking about only skin care. You know, like everything is just very insecurity focused. You know, if you're angry about something, that's the kind of content that you're going to be pushed up. If you're unsure about your place in the world, then you're going to find something to be angry about. If you're not happy how you look, then look smacksing. There's your rabbit hole. And then that just never, never, never ends. But, um, jumping a little bit back into how things are today, you are basically a very lean, very AI Focused startup at the end of the day, and the environment of startups specifically, and AI startups even more specifically, is very primed with hype, with promises that are probably never going to become real, with investors investing into things that they know in the beginning that will not work. Um, what would your advice be to survive as a founder in that? Is it write that hype? Is it be more direct, specific or, or maybe something else?

Speaker B: Uh, I think, you know, you need to be very strategic. Like if you're a serial entrepreneur and you have crazy venture capital contacts and you, you know, you will be able to pull up around, you know, even with, I don't know, copycat or like, you know, vibe coding something, you know, go for this, like if you know it will work for you, but like, um, for everyone else, I think you need to be very strategic in what kind of tech you will invest and what kind of focus you will be, um, putting as a founder. Um, and for us, from the beginning we said data is what we do. We do not try to reinvent wheel, we do not try to compete with Google, we do not try to compete. I don't know with whom, um, we cannot compete, but we focus on the data and really on the real live application that makes sense for our audience. And it's like what we do. Yeah, um, like TechComp. When we use tech, we write our own code, but like, we will never, ever do, I don't know, OpenAI copy because it's unrealistic. So, and that's like what probably most founders should look like. Um, because big tech giants, like, they are ramping up. We are launching quite fast, all the things. And this morning I just read that probably, ah, lovable will be irrelevant soon. Um, because I think Claudo or, I don't know, Perplexity already launched some vibe coding things. Um, so I think as a founder you really need to be very strategic.

Speaker A: And then the strategy becomes, I'm guessing, the data again, right? Or is it the users or is it the tech or is it the connection?

Speaker B: It really depends from a founder. Yeah, like, you know, from your strength. Like if, like if you have a contact, so probably, you know, you can fundraise with any idea what brings money now and then pivot later. That is a strategy as well. Like, um, I come from private equity, but like, um, I do not have this venture capital contact. So for me, like, I need to be very strategic with my tech and then I put the box, um, you know, and what kind of technology otherwise if we will be doing things what, you know, Google launched and, you know, investors will say, why should I fund you for this? So we do things what our users want to have. So we have attraction, um, and we have product market fit.

Speaker A: Yeah, makes sense. Makes sense. Thank you for the advice. So thank you very much. It was a very insightful discussion. Where do people find you? Where do people hear more of your ideas?

Speaker B: OMG. Actually on TikTok, social media, Instagram, LinkedIn, our own webpage. You can ping me on LinkedIn. I'm, um, like, happy to talk and answer. And like,

Speaker A: thank you. Thank you very much and thank you as well for listening to our episode today. I hope you've learned something about your own skin, which is the largest organ in your body. If you haven't known that beforehand, now you will actually, if you liked this episode, tell us about it in the comments and put a like. If you didn't like it. There is no dislike on YouTube, so the joke is on you. But do leave a comment and we will try to make our episodes that much better next time and see you when that happens. Bye bye.