E363 - The 7 Universal Principles of Persuasion & Thinking Fast & Slow (David Aaronson, Digital Inbound)

Welcome to the Inbound Back Office podcast, where we chat with smart agency owners about agency challenges. I'm Amy Foley, CEO of Inbound Back Office, white label plug and play staffing and recruiting for your marketing agency. Today, I'm chatting with David Aronson, who is the chief marketing advisor of Digital Inbound, and we're going to talk about the seven universal principles of persuasion and thinking fast and slow. Welcome, David.

Thank you very much. Pleased to be here. Yeah. Why don't you tell us a little bit about Digital Inbound?

Digital Inbound is a digital agency like just about any other digital agency. We do full service of digital marketing from strategy to execution. We are HubSpot partner, and we believe that automated marketing is really the only way to use digital media and digital marketing. So we try and get most of our clients onto using HubSpot.

We also do not deal with any clients. We don't take on any clients. This has been for the last six years now, who do not have a CRM or are willing to have a CRM. And when people tell us they do have a CRM, it's on this Excel spreadsheet.

We don't count that as a CRM. And we move them quickly onto the HubSpot CRM, which is very capable. So that's what we do. We also emphasize, as we're going to talk about later in this podcast, the seven universal principles of persuasion and how to best use them in different situations in combination with Daniel Kahneman's book, Thinking Fast and Slow, and what he said about how the human mind actually makes decisions.

Ooh, well, I am excited to jump in. Yeah, so let's start with the human mind and how it makes decisions. Tell me a little bit more about that. So what's interesting is Daniel Kahneman was a behavioral scientist, as was Dr.

Robert Cialdini, who came up with the universal principles of persuasion. And Daniel Kahneman, as a behavioral scientist, received a Nobel Prize in economics. Now, that's a very strange thing for behavioral science to get. There is no Nobel Prize in psychology or behavioral science.

He got a Nobel Prize in economics because before he wrote his book and actually did some several research papers before the book was written, Thinking Fast and Slow, economists built their theories based on human beings make rational decisions. That is, we think about the decisions using a prefrontal cortex, and we make rational decisions. The fact of the matter is, we don't. And that's what Daniel Kahneman proved.

We use shortcuts, lots of shortcuts. In Daniel Kahneman's time, and he wrote his book, his book was published in 2006. He said that 95% of our decisions, 95% are quick decisions that do not use what we call rational thinking. What does that mean?

It means that we can't, you know, people who go deep into detail and analytics, most people are just not going to hear it. We make decisions based on, and Kahneman said, if you want to know how we actually make the decisions, you need to see Robert Cialdini and his seven universal principles, because those are the principles at work. And what's a little bit of physiology about human beings and animals, there's something called a reptile brain. The reptile brain is actually in humans and it's called the amygdala.

But in a reptile brain, that was the first time the amygdala showed up in terms of evolution. And the amygdala for reptiles said one thing, is it safe? Do I have to run? Right?

That's all it did. As it develops, and the human brain now actually has a very large prefrontal cortex, much larger than the amygdala, thinking starts coming in. But we still do a tremendous amount of decision work without real thinking. There are shortcuts.

How do those shortcuts get there? Not 100% sure. Can we change the shortcuts? Yes, but it's hard work and it needs to be applied.

Often we can call these things biases, and indeed they are biases. For whatever reason, if just as an example, one of the seven principles is liking. If we see someone that we like and they use a product or promote a product, we buy that product. We don't really think about, is the product any good?

Do they really know about anything, the product that they're promoting? I don't care. We really like that person. They like this product.

We will buy that product. Well, that's the principle of liking. If we like somebody, we will listen to them as if they are an authority. And an authority actually is another principle.

So if a doctor tells you something, you believe the doctor because the doctor is an authority. Even if the doctor is a quack, if the doctor looks nice and you like that doctor and they talk very nice and they're dressed very nice or whatever and they're in a nice setting and you get all that liking and they're an authority and they say, this is what you should do, we listen to them. We don't really, oh, what is this thing they're talking about that we should take? What is actually in this thing?

We don't even look at that because we have an authority and someone that we like is telling us this is what we should do. So activating two principles of persuasion and we go ahead and do it So those are just two examples of what the persuasion liking is and they work on our amygdala So in marketing we can say that we actually don want to get people to think. If they think, all right, they'll start analyzing and they will not make a decision. We want them to do quick thinking, and we want to use the techniques of the universal principles to get that quick thinking activated so that they'll make decisions in our favor.

Interesting. It sounds kind of manipulative. So yes and no. And it's not manipulative if what you're doing is telling the truth.

So there's nothing wrong with believing in an authority. And in fact, we cannot exist as humans without our quick thinking. If we had to really think about everything. I just raised my hand.

Nobody can see that, but I just raised my hand. I didn't think about raising my hand, but it's my part of my habits to use my hands when I talk. Well, but all of those hand movements, I'm not thinking about it. They're just happening, right?

Again, the quick thinking is doing that. A lot of the decisions we make are decisions that are totally automatic. We breathe, our heart beats, we move our bodies. All of those are actually decisions that are made by our quick thinking.

So quick thinking isn't bad. And if we use the principles and never lie. So for instance, another principle is social proof. And we all know about social proof.

All right. We all have been to booking websites and seen all of the reviews. Oh, wow. Look at all those people that really like that.

That's a good use of social proof. Now, if those reviews are lies, then it's manipulative. All right? If it's not lies, I'm just telling you to help you make a decision that there are a lot of people who have chosen this spot.

There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing manipulative about it. If I am a true authority and I tell you something authoritatively, then I'm not tricking you into doing something. I'm just helping you use your quick thinking in order to make a decision.

So the Cialdini Institute, and I'm a certified coach and a certified influence practitioner, ethical influence practitioner, emphasizes throughout our training that you need to always tell the truth. If you're not telling the truth, then indeed you are being manipulative. And in the end, if someone finds out about you not telling the truth, you're done with that person. they're never going to trust you again.

And we all know we don't buy from anybody unless we trust them. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I guess that's the whole idea behind influencer marketing, where companies try to get someone who their audience likes, trusts, sees as an authority maybe to say that they use the product.

Correct. That's a great example. And, you know, do they really use the product? Are they just talking about the product?

You know, maybe they are. And if they are, then that's perfectly fine and wonderful. If they're just getting paid and there's now laws in some states that if an influencer is getting paid, they have to declare that they're getting paid in order to make the recommendations. Now that they're getting paid to make the recommendations, are they still high up on that trusted authority?

Right. yes you know maybe they will go right by persons or you know it's like the fine print on contracts you know we told you it was in the contract it was fine print and nobody ever reads the fine print and all that kind of stuff but they at least you know talked about it so yeah yeah for sure that's that's super interesting because it does kind of change like when you were talking about it it changes like if if i'm just seeing someone using a product um i might say someone that i know and I like, I might be like, oh, I got to try that product.

But then if I see like a social post where they said, now they paid me to use this product, that might change the whole game. Correct. And quite frankly, we ignore that. So I'll give you an example in the sports world, all over the sports, women's sports and men's sports doesn't matter.

Lots of celebrity sports people have contracts with Nike or Adidas or, you know, NewBowl, it doesn't matter which one. They're getting paid lots and lots of money to wear their clothes and to get on commercials and say, yeah, I like this, or just you see them and they're in those clothes. Now, you like these athletes, so you want to follow these athletes and, oh, they're using Under Armour or, you know, talking about Under Armour. I will buy Under Armour products or Nike products or Adidas products.

Are they experts also? Are they getting to use the principle of authority as well? Well, if you're an athlete, you know, you want to get the best possible. So perhaps they are authorities about that.

But they're getting paid multi-million dollars for those contracts. Right. Yeah. It kind of, it slants it a little bit, but I would imagine that most people don't ever think about that aspect and they just see the person wearing it and they're like, oh, they wear it, then I'm going to wear it.

When we latch on to what I'll call a good quick thinking, all right, Daniel Kahneman called them system one thinking and system two thinking. System one thinking is the quick thinking. It's very, very quick. It's automatic.

Sometimes we don't even know that it's working. I'll give you an example of that. There's a person who is deciding whether to buy a Lamborghini or a Ferrari. Now, I'm going to tell you that the decision to buy the Lamborghini or the Ferrari was made a long time ago It was made when that person said I deserve a really fancy car Because quite frankly a Ferrari or a Lamborghini unless you really going to race them is not very practical at all It just isn't.

I mean, you know, but somewhere someone said, I deserve quick thinking. I deserve to be noticed. I deserve to be driving a fancy sports car. I deserve.

Okay. And that decision led them to, oh, what kind of car should I get? Oh, a Ferrari or a Lamborghini. Throw in a Porsche.

I mean, throw in an expensive Bentley. It doesn't matter. They're now rationalizing their decision and trying to figure out which one is better. It's a toss-up.

You like the salesman better, or you like the picture better, or you like the driver better. Those are the things that drove the decision. And after you've made the decision, okay, I'm getting the Ferrari. Now you learn all the things about the Ferrari and you say, well, this is the reason that I bought the Ferrari.

No, it wasn't. Those decisions were actually made a long time ago. And a lot of decisions that we make, you can think of them being gated. We can't talk about the Ferrari or the Lamborghini until we've made the decision.

We've opened up the gate in our short thinking that we deserve that car. Once that gate is open, now we can go out and make the actual purchasing decision. But the decision to purchase something like that, all right, was made a long time ago. Wow, that is fascinating.

But you're right. Like, I'm thinking back on other decisions that I've made that were similar. And yeah, it's uncanny how accurate that is. Yes.

Oh, yeah, it is definitely uncanny. And it is absolutely accurate. And it's things that we don't even think about. Even after you've purchased a Lamborghini or a Ferrari, you still don't think about how you actually made that decision.

And that's the discovery that Kahneman really made. Even on huge purchases of $200,000, all right, we don't actually do prefrontal cortex real thinking. All right. We do analysis after decision has actually been made.

And that's his contribution. And one of the things that Kahneman said, if you really want to know how we make decisions, not just that it's all quick decisions, system one decisions, you need to know about Robert Cialdini and his book, the name of his book is called Influence, the Psychology of Persuasion. Okay. So tell me a little bit more about the other principles of persuasion.

Okay. So there are seven all together. I'll just read them off. Reciprocity is one.

Reciprocity, we all know about. Free trials are reciprocity. You know, free samples are reciprocity. And there is a natural tendency within humans, maybe all animals or many animals, if someone gives you something, you want to reciprocate.

You know, all those people that send you holiday cards and you go, hmm, I didn't send them a card. I guess I need to send them a card. You know, that kind of thing. There's a natural reciprocity.

So you give something to somebody, you expect something back. And if you want, I don't know how long this wants to go, but I can tell you stories in studies, behavioral science studies that have been done to prove that reciprocity works, that each and every one of these works. So the next one that we've also talked about is liking. You see someone you like, they are supporting something, you then support it.

And that's an easy one. An interesting one about this one that everyone knows about. L'Oreal had a campaign. And the campaign was, we know we're more expensive, but we're worth it.

That was their campaign. They changed one word in their campaign and they increased their sales by over 500%. The word that they changed was you. We know we're expensive, but you are worth it.

That said, we like you. We think you're worth our product, which we know is superior and you are worth it. That was a liking principle telling L'Oreal, telling the buyer, we like you very much. It worked very, very well.

But that's really all they did. One word and a 500% increase. So that's liking. You've seen it mostly with celebrities, et cetera.

There's another one that's called Unity. And Unity is very, very special. It's location-based and it's connected-based. So, you know, if you meet someone who was born in the same city as you were, if you meet someone who was born in the same state, went to the same school, it doesn't matter which school, it could be elementary, high school or college, but there's a connection, an event connection between you.

And that's a really strong connection. So if you can identify, yeah, I grew up in your state. Yeah, I know all about the Midwest. I, you know, I grew up in Minnesota.

You grew up in Wisconsin. Yeah, our teams used to class. there's a connection that is made. You were at that Superbowl.

Wow. I was there too. You saw that seventh game, whatever it is, it creates a connection. All right.

And you now will listen to that person and that person can tell you something. They could be a complete stranger that you met, you know, at a Starbucks. All right. But they can now tell you something and you will believe them because that connection has been made.

So it's sort of like super liking it. All right. Yeah. Very personal.

We've talked about social proof. Social proof is used a lot. It's, you know, it has a it has a common name called peer pressure and it works. You know, we want to do what other people are doing.

We don't want to stand out. Even those people, a lot of times who do want to stand out are still looking for some social proof so that they're not really a unicorn. All right. And social proof really moves people to say yes And as all of these do The next one is authority And we talked about authority People will do amazing things strange things sometimes when an authority says that you need to do it.

All right. And you believe and have confidence in that authority. So that's a very, very strong principle at work. The other one is very interesting and is very, very subtle, but works very, very well.

And that is people want to be consistent in their thoughts, and actions. So if you can tell someone that you've already done this, you've already been doing this, now I just want you to do a little more, people want to stay consistent. I'll give an example of this. They did an experiment in a rich neighborhood south of San Francisco, and they said, we have a sign.

There's been too much speeding on our streets. We have a lot of kids playing. We got a four by six sign that we want you to place on your front lawn that just says drive safely. Very low percentage, about 15% of people said they'd put that sign on it.

They took another group, very, very similar, and they said, we want you to put a small sign in your window. And the sign is just going to be drive safely. Same reasons. There's a lot of cars and there's kids playing.

Just put that in there. About 35% of the people put that small little card in their window. Two weeks later, they come back to the people that have the card in the window. They say, this was wonderful that you did this.

Thank you so much using liking. All right. This was really wonderful. And you know, there's still a really serious problem.

We have a four by six sign that we'd like you to put on your front lawn. If you could just, you know, you could take that one down, but thank you for doing it. And now just up it and put that sign in there. 45% of those people that had the small sign, put the large sign on their lawn.

The only reason was they were staying consistent. So consistency is a very, very powerful and sometimes subtle kind of mechanism, but it works very, very well. And the last one, and this is the most amazing, I think, is something that we call scarcity. What it really is, is risk averse as well.

So, you know, only three days left, All right. Limited time offer, all of those kinds of things. But if you use the phrase, you're going to miss out. So if I say to you, if you said to me, David, we'd like to do a podcast with you so we can hear all of your wonderful things about the principles of influence.

Or you say, David, we don't want you to miss out on telling everyone about the principles of persuasion. Now, the only difference in that is the miss out phrase. On average, 80%, if you gave people choices, all right, those are the two choices, choose those. The result is absolutely the same.

All right. You get to do the podcast. There's no difference in the result. Right, right.

50% of the people will choose, I'm going to do it so I don't miss out. Because we are prone, to the negative and prone to missing out, FOMO, fear of missing out. There is even a social media word for it. And it works.

So those are the seven principles of persuasion that Chialdini talks about in his book. And we know how they operate by understanding what Daniel Kahneman said in his book, Thinking Fast and Slow. Wow, that was awesome. You packed a ton of information in a tiny amount of time.

Is there anything else that, you know, before we wrap up that we forgot to talk about that you think is important? I just, we often think about these principles and the mechanisms working in marketing and sales. And obviously they do. But we deal with influence and influencing people all the time in business, in family, in social gatherings.

And just knowing some of these principles and knowing how to use them can help you in that area as well. I also teach digital marketing at UCLA. and I teach the principles as part of the course. At the end of the course, we have an exercise and it's called Jimmy's Problem.

Jimmy gets in trouble with class because he's talking with a girlfriend or a hopefully girlfriend in the back of the class trying to get a date. He's disturbing the teacher. The teacher calls him up, embarrasses him, tries to call up the girlfriend, and he just gets pissed off and said, you go to hell and walks out of the class. Okay, so that's the scenario.

And then the class, I separate them into groups and they now have to, you're the father, you need to go talk to the principal of the school, use the seven principals in your talk to get Jimmy back into school. So it's just a demonstration that all of these principals work in sales and marketing, but they also work in common everyday places and you could use them if you know how to use them. Wow. I love that.

Well, thank you so much. This was so informative. I loved it. Why don't you tell our listeners where they can find you online?

You can find us online at digitalinbound.com. And my email address is david at digitalinbound.com.

You can call me directly 323-428-2015. 5. Wonderful. Well, thanks again, David.

And thank you everyone for listening to the Inbound Back Office podcast brought to you by Inbound Back Office, white label plug and play staffing and recruiting for your marketing agency. You can find Inbound Back Office at inboundbackoffice.com. And if you enjoyed today's episode, please take a minute to leave us a review and share it with other agency owners.

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