Allison Rhines on JLabs' innovation, AI in drug discovery, and healthcare tech trends | E30

Absolutely. So happy to tell you more about how we work with early-stage companies. I would say, as folks on this call are well aware, there is quite a bit of overlap, but also some distinctions between accelerators and incubators. And at JLABS, we are definitely an incubator, not an accelerator, although we run quite a bit of programming designed to shape and support early-stage companies.

So thinking back to the beginning of JLABS, JLABS was created to essentially solve all of the non-scientific barriers to the early-stage companies facing their early days in the life sciences. Welcome to Impact TV. It's a corporate venture video series in collaboration between the Kauffman Fellows and Impact Venture Capital. Hi, I'm Jack Crawford, a founding general partner at Impact Venture Capital.

And alongside my colleague from Impact, Pat Bumpus, and my Kauffman Fellow Co-Chair, Alessandra Santo, we're thrilled to welcome to the program Allison Rhines, the head of Johnson & Johnson's Innovation JLABS. Hi, Allison. Hi there, Jack. Delighted to be here.

Thanks so much for making a little bit of time. Right, the icebreaker is sort of I'm hearing that you're stalking national parks across the country. Can you tell us a little bit about which ones we should go to first or second? I am.

I love visiting national parks. I just visited my 30th national park, and I have to say of those that I visited, my favorite is North Cascades in Washington. Absolutely stunningly beautiful. Fantastic, all right, I'm gonna add it to my list.

Doing that now. Okay, let's talk a little bit about your background. Spent some time at J&J, at the Gates Foundation, and now sort of driving the action at JLABS. Can you just sort of walk us through some of your history all the way up till sort of the stuff that you're working on now at JLABS?

Absolutely, happy to take you through my career trajectory and feel free to stop me along the way if there are points that make sense to expound on. But going way, way back, my Ph.D. is in mathematical and computational biology.

At the time I was in grad school, I was interested in life sciences, interested in math, and interested in problems that would be socially meaningful or helpful to humanity in some way. So I got interested in modeling the dynamics of infectious disease transmission, which now post-COVID, everyone has an opinion about. But at the time that I was in grad school, it was sort of a niche curiosity of a handful of applied mathematicians and mathematical biologists. But so anyways, I was modeling the dynamics of various infectious diseases.

And I had the opportunity to do an internship at the Gates Foundation related to the work that I was doing, and had such a great experience that I did an internship at J&J in the same disease area the following summer, and then chose to do an industry postdoc to continue that work at J&J, which was in, as you mentioned, their global public health organization. So, wow, go ahead. Yeah, let me ask out of personal curiosity. So I have some kids that are math geniuses.

I'll never be able to keep up with them. They're looking at applying math to sports or math to robotics or math to theater arts. Did you sort of, as you were sort of trying to look at places to apply math, how did you end up with infectious diseases or sort of looking at it as it relates to So I think at the time, I had these sort of three things floating around in my mind that I was passionate about life sciences. I was interested in using math to solve problems.

So I'd say math makes everything better, quantifying everything makes everything better. And then I wanted to do something that I could be excited about and felt like was making the world a better place. And the thought that you could actually use those two sets of tools that I was interested in to control, contain, reduce the impact of pandemics. And I'm not just thinking about sort of, you know, acute pandemics like COVID-19.

But at the time I was working on TB, tuberculosis, which at the time was one of the largest burden infectious diseases, together with HIV. And I was just really excited by the impact that that could have. Very cool. So J&J by industry sector, heavy focus on consumer healthcare products and medical technologies, 275 subsidiaries around the world with operations in more than 60 countries.

I mean, big company, right? As you look at industry sectors that are most relevant to your day job and maybe source interesting ideas and concepts internally, but also reach out into the outside market, what are the industry sectors that you find most interesting and most relevant to what you're doing at JLabs? Sure. So happy to tell you a bit about JLabs, shifting gears a little bit and how we work and how we think about innovation.

So JLabs focuses on the areas that J&J focuses on at a very high level. So pharmaceuticals and medical devices. Within those areas, we have certain areas of strategic focus where we have particular, I would say, expertise that we're able to connect the companies to within But JLabs is also J&J's earliest touchpoint with the innovation ecosystem. So we have the flexibility to bring in companies that are working in transformative areas of science that are strategy adjacent or not yet on strategy because data changes minds.

And JLabs allows us to maintain those relationships with companies who would be too early for a deal or working in an area that's adjacent to a deal such that when data emerges that makes it make sense for a partnership or a transaction, that relationship is already there. I see. And what about areas like, we've researched a bit in the sort of the digital health space, electronic medical records and HIPAA-compliant interactions between a doctor and a patient remotely on mobile devices.

We sort of, nothing required sort of FDA approval or sort of at the device level because at times some venture groups view that as like an extended time horizon to make banks that are overly capital intensive. But some of these other areas in digital health can be a bit more capital efficient and are big, big market opportunities. Any focus on that? Talk to me a little bit about those industry sectors.

Yeah. So as I mentioned, J&J is primarily a pharmaceutical and medical device company. So the original purpose of JLabs was to connect J&J with companies that will essentially feed the R&D pipeline, developing transformative innovation that J&J can then take on board and develop to bring to patients. So I would say never say never.

We're happy to look at a deck in areas like that, but our core focus is on pharmaceuticals and the underlying science and then medical devices and technology. Got it. Okay, that makes great sense. Let's talk a little bit about AI.

There's this broad umbrella of AI. I remember the early days of the internet, it was viewed as a sort of niche technology and then all of a sudden it was applying everywhere. I think we're sort of scratching the surface of AI as an umbrella of innovation that will likely impact every industry sector, consumer business market, and everywhere else. We're looking at AI and how it applies to security, finance, digital health, education, some of these other areas.

When you think about AI and how it might be applied, either internally as it relates to your decision-making or externally as you're sourcing sort of companies for JLabs and showing the application. Talk to me a little bit about your view on AI and how you guys are thinking about it. So I completely agree with you that we're only just scratching the surface of what AI is going to do. And I think we're going to see tremendous applications of AI in the next five years or so.

When we think about the portfolio at JLabs, historically, there's been a large presence of companies that are using AI in drug discovery in some way. They're identifying new drug targets, which for the non-biologists on the line is places where that drugs essentially plug in, looking at new molecules for existing targets, plenty of other ways to think about designing drugs using AI. In more recent years, I've actually seen some interesting companies coming into the JLabs at TMC site here in Houston, which is the site that I lead that are increasingly involved in various aspects of drug manufacturing.

Particularly for therapies that are complicated to manufacture like CAR T therapies, there have been a number of companies that we've accepted where AI is helpful in some way in improving speed or the accuracy of those types of processes. I think there's a lot more to come. Yeah. When did you launch the incubator and accelerator programs there in Texas?

Tell me, is there one JLabs, is it in Texas? Or are there multiple JLabs? And when did it launch and how did it launch? Talk to me a little bit about how that all came to be.

Sure. So there are 11 JLabs sites around the world. The original JLabs site was in San Diego, which was founded about 12 years ago. And then since then, sites have been added around the world all the time.

Six of those sites are in North America. And the JLabs site here in Houston is coming up on 10 years. We ran an accelerator program where we brought MBA students, law students, and startups all together in sort of working teams. And it was sort of a 10- to 12-week mentoring program with a year-end showcase event that was like a demo day.

Is that kind of programmatically how you're executing? Talk a little bit about the timeline and how the program works. Absolutely. So happy to tell you more about how we work with early-stage companies.

I would say, as folks on this call are well aware, there is quite a bit of overlap, but also some distinctions between accelerators and incubators. And at JLabs, we are definitely an incubator, not an accelerator, although we run quite a bit of programming designed to shape and support early-stage companies. So thinking back to the beginning of JLabs, JLabs was created to essentially solve all of the non-scientific barriers that early-stage companies face in their early days in the life sciences.

So in life sciences, we talk about the valley of death for early-stage startups. And there are all kinds of issues that companies encounter during this phase of their life. They either are not getting access to investors that can support them, they're not getting the right mentorship, or they're not getting scientific expertise from clinicians who can understand the various types of risks that the drug or the platform they are developing is going to face. And at JLabs, we sort of took a step back and said, What are all of these different causes of non-scientific failure?

Because, yeah, especially in the biopharma space, there are plenty of companies that fail for scientific reasons. Science is empirical, and so you have to blame Mother Nature for that. But if there is a company that fails as a result of any one of these other aspects, that's a tragedy, because that's a drug that could have made a patient's life better or even saved a life. So when we look systematically at these different sources of potential failures, we thought about connectivity to investors.

Part of the offering at JLabs involves our connections to an investor network, which is essentially a set of investors who understand the deep diligence that companies go through when they apply and become part of JLabs, the scientific review that takes place with J&J senior scientists. Investors have essentially said, this company is good enough for JLabs, it's good enough for me to take a meeting, and companies have access to that database on day one. We also have a network of trusted service providers, everything from IP legal to contract research organizations who, in the life sciences, do a lot of the lab work for early-stage companies a lot of the time, and companies have access to this database and also to the bulk discounts that can be negotiated with a high volume of companies from day one.

One of the aspects that I think makes the JLabs offering most unique is the JLabs mentorship program. So every company gets a dedicated J&J leader, known as their J-PAL. That's someone who is either working in the company's area of scientific focus or someone in the J&J Innovation Organization who can help them with various aspects of their pitch or other aspects of fundraising. And that mentor and the company meet once per quarter.

That relationship has sort of two goals. The first goal being to provide the company with essentially free non-confidential mentoring around the difference between an interesting science experiment and a compelling data package for a pharma partnership or equity investment or M&A transaction. We find especially with early career founders that mentorship around that distinction can be very useful. Then secondly, that mentor also serves as a conduit to broader J&J to help J&J keep updated on the company's progress so that when that company is deal-ready, both that relationship and also knowledge of the company's work is already there.

And then finally, we run a regular cadence of events. So this is engagement with the ecosystem where we're bringing in investors, J&J leaders, and others to really have JLabs serve as an intellectual nexus of the biotech ecosystem. And then we also run quite a bit of programming for the companies with each other to essentially mentor each other and build that community on a journey that can be very isolating as an entrepreneur. Having a mentor like that and an internal champion at J&J seems incredibly valuable.

So yeah, now I understand the value proposition much better. As you think back about why J&J started this incubator program and you compare it to other incubators and accelerators, my experience across a broad corporate network of relationships is sometimes it's about market insight into the next great opportunity or market trends more specifically. Sometimes it's about deal flow, just understanding which companies are out there. It can be about strategic investments.

It can be about, hey, we want to buy this company because it's going to be our next billion-dollar business unit. Was there any initial driver in the early days? Was it one or more of those in the early days as JLabs was launched? I would say JLabs is primarily about relationships and scientific connectivity.

So the opportunity, like I said, for those companies to get to know J&J, we know we have other pharma peers, and especially for the hottest, most scientifically exciting companies, there are plenty of opportunities for partnering. And so JLabs provides us with a chance to get to know the companies and the companies to get to know us and build that relationship. Like I said, so when the company is deal-ready, that relationship is already there. And there's already a sense for how J&J works from the company's perspective and then from the J&J perspective, a deep non-confidential knowledge of their technology.

So all the companies coming into JLabs, that relationship is non-confidential unless there's a deal discussion going on, whether that's partnering or equity. And then at that time, a CDA would be put in place. I think it's fascinating how you've formalized what is, in my experience, mostly an informal collaboration between a business unit and a startup and other corporates. You really formalized it with the J-PAL system and the other programming that you're doing.

I know you had an event in Q4 just this last quarter, right? Was that just one of your regular quarterly events? How did that go? Tell me a little bit about the event.

So as I mentioned, we run several different types of events. The event I think you're referring to was an investor event. So at each of the JLabs sites around the world, many of them run investor days, which are points of connectivity with the venture ecosystem in that region and JLabs companies, but also other companies in the ecosystem that typically consist of a mix of programming and curated one-on-one connects. The event I think you're talking about was focused specifically on family office and other family funds.

And we found that particularly exciting because here in Texas, we don't have the developed life sciences venture ecosystem that exists in, say, San Francisco or Boston. But we do have an incredible wealth of family office funding. Often these are families that have a particular connection to a specific disease area and are interested in equity as a venue for impact, and these families also have charitable interests in similar areas. Essentially, the event was an opportunity for our companies to get to know family offices and then for family offices to essentially get some education around life science investing and see some opportunities for those kinds of investments.

Oh, sounds fantastic. It's difficult to get these family offices to get out and about, you did a good job mobilizing them. That's awesome. Let's talk a little bit about scouting and sourcing opportunities.

I mean, as you're well aware, sort of venture funds are tapping into angel investment networks, family office networks, universities. I'm envisioning that you're interacting a bit more with sort of universities, research institutions, and maybe even interacting with some outside venture capital firms with regard to kind of scouting and sourcing new opportunities. But tell me, where are you finding sort of the most interesting opportunities? Sure.

It's a real mix. So in my role, I interact both with tech transfer offices for those early, early companies that are being spun out of academic institutions. Here in Houston, JLabs really is the primary point of contact for the earliest stage companies. So companies can come into JLabs and take a single lab bench or a single workstation.

And there are very few other places in Houston where companies can actually do that. And so we have the opportunity while they're here to essentially grow and also shape the companies too. As I mentioned earlier, from a mentorship perspective, it's not just a case of building that relationship, but also helping guide around the difference between, like I said, what actually moves the needle in terms of the types of data that companies should be focused on. But all of that said, as we're bringing companies in, we also have quite a bit of connectivity with the venture network.

And the ways that we engage with venture funds, there are two primary ways. The first is for early-stage funds that are looking to incubate their companies, we can essentially provide a turnkey approach that de-risks many of the aspects that I just mentioned around company success in the early days. Then the other way that we work with venture funds quite often is they can have a look at the JLABS portfolio. There is a resource called the JLABS Navigator, which contains every company that's ever been through any one of the 11 JLABS sites.

When we engage with venture funds and understand their investment theses, we can refer them to specific companies in the portfolio and they understand these are all companies that have been reviewed and diligenced for acceptance into JLABS. Super helpful. Okay. So you've got this large opportunity set that you're looking at.

Sort of the next phase of that is selection, right? Who actually gets into JLABS? We look at about 2,000 or 3,000 investment opportunities each year. We sort of filter down and we're looking at selection criteria like what's the overall size of the market?

Do we have a $10 billion market opportunity or larger? Do we have sustainable technology or an opportunity to create an IP intellectual property portfolio? What's the experience level of the team? What's the capital intensity of opportunity?

What customer traction has been generated so far? How does that translate into revenues? Those are some of the things that we're looking at. Are you going through a similar process to a venture capital firm when it relates to your selection criteria?

So as a bit of background, one thing that might be helpful would be to talk about the different aspects of J&J Innovation and the different essentially mechanisms that J&J has for engaging with early-stage companies. So as folks on this call are probably aware, J&J has a venture fund called JJDC, the J&J Development Corporation, that does equity investing across a company's lifetime. We also have an early innovation partnering arm. And that was actually my previous role before stepping into this role.

I served as an early innovation partner focused on infectious disease and vaccines out in San Francisco. Essentially, the early innovation partnering arm is focused on all forms of non-dilutive capital. So think single asset licenses, research collaborations, and others. And then we have JLabs, which is the physical incubator space.

So these three different aspects can work together to support companies as they need various kinds of capital at different points in their development lifetime. So for equity investment and for early innovation partnerships, these are situations where the companies obviously need to be a strong fit with J&J strategy. Otherwise, you wouldn't make the investment. For companies coming into JLABS, as I mentioned, we have the flexibility to work a bit outside of the strategic bull's-eye, I think a layer out to look at transformative science that's strategy adjacent, where a compelling data set has the potential to change the strategy.

For companies coming into JLABS, we look first and foremost for that completely transformative science that is either on strategy or strategically adjacent in a way that it would have the potential to become on strategy. Awesome. Not only do I understand your selection criteria now, but I also understand the tremendous amount of resource support that you provide to people who are accepted into the program and the ongoing support beyond that. You've formalized it and programmed it in a different way than I've seen across a broad, we have a pretty broad network of corporate venture groups.

Yeah, that's really impressive. Can you talk a little bit about what does graduation look like? If someone goes through graduation, are there key performance indicators? Hey, they got acquired by J&J or they secured a strategic investment from J&J or they went public on their own and were partners or they impacted this many lives.

Can you just talk a little bit about what sort of graduation looks like or sort of the next step in the evolution following their participation in JLABS? Sure. So I think there's really two pieces to your question. The first is what happens after JLABS?

And then the second is how has J&J historically over the decade plus that JLABS has been around engaged with JLABS companies? So to your first question, here at JLABS at TMC, every site is different, I should say JLABS at TMC is Texas Medical Center in Houston. We're known as JLABS at TMC because we're located on the Texas Medical Center campus. But here in Houston, the average time that a company spends in the site is about two years, but there's some very long tails on either side of the two-year period.

And that's because companies come into JLABS looking to hit a growth inflection point, which takes different amounts of time for different companies, especially if you look at the differences between a pharma company and a medical device company. So essentially companies come into JLABS for what they need, and then they move on. We work with them to support them through that graduation transition. Typically it happens sometime after their Series B, but not always.

Most often the driver is that they need some type of specialized support that is included in the JLABS facilities here. For pharma companies, often that's having on-site access to animal testing, so we don't run an animal facility here at JLABS. Sometimes it means having a clean room or having their own larger space than we're able to provide. Typically that's around 15 people.

Once companies get close to the 15 employees on-site mark, we start having conversations about graduation. We very much view graduations as success because the objective is not for companies to stay in JLabs until they reach the size of J&J. It's to get what they need from the program and then move on. And we do keep in very close touch with our alumni.

So when we track the portfolio, we track it in terms of both companies currently on-site and the alumni, because many of the alumni will go on to do deals with J&J as well. If they didn't hit that point of deal readiness while they happen to be on-site, so to the second part of your question around what sort of has J&J engagement been with JLabs companies? I mentioned 11 JLabs sites around the world, and there have been just about 1,100 companies that have come through the program over its lifetime.

J&J has had some type of formal relationship with over a third of those companies. A formal relationship could be an equity investment, it could be various structures of partnership, a single asset license, or something as simple as a material transfer agreement. But that is a statistic that we think speaks to both the diligence that companies go through once they join JLabs and also the experience that they have while they're here. You may be the largest corporate incubator in the world with 1,100 companies.

I mean, that's extraordinary to hear about that and then the ongoing participation after that. I think you touched on this a little bit earlier, but maybe you could just mention that they go through the program and then in some cases there's a strategic investment, in some cases a partnership, or in some cases they're maybe migrating out to a collaborative effort with another university. But as it relates to J&J and the corporate venture arm, is there anything that you're doing, are you accept a company into the JLabs program at a year end, you're starting to see some promising activities.

And so you connect them at that point with the J&J corporate venture. How does that work? And maybe just talk a little bit more about your collaboration with the corporate venture arm. So that engagement is managed via the R&D organization.

So essentially, J&J's venture fund is investing against the strategic priorities of the R&D organization. So every company will have a J-PAL who's someone working in their area of science. When that J-PAL thinks that that company has hit a data inflection point that's of interest, there'll be some review by the R&D team. And then there'll be a decision made that this is a company that would be appropriate to review for an equity investment.

And then JJDC will sort of take on that discussion. And sometimes it happens that JJDC is introduced earlier for various reasons, but really the R&D strategy fit with that strategy is what drives both equity and partnership decisions. Awesome. Okay.

Thanks for that. Okay. So this corporate venture video series has been distributed to 800-900 Kauffman Fellows who regularly comment on the value to them. But there's another segment of the technology ecosystem in entrepreneurs that are also getting a lot of value and really understanding where corporates are interested by stage, by sector, and how to engage in the different programs like JLabs that are out there.

As we speak to the founders of new companies and sort of talk to them a little bit about the qualities or characteristics that you look for in bringing in a new company into JLabs, is there one or two or three things that you would highlight? I would say one, two, and three are transformative science, specifically transformative science in areas, like I said, that are either on strategy or strategy adjacent. They need not be on strategy today, but essentially to have the potential to be completely transformative if the company is successful.

Awesome. Let me finish with, well, I got one quick question and then a rapid-fire section of the program for you. With regard to technology trends, part of what we're trying to do at Impact Venture Capital is source market insights on key technology trends to elevate our investing IQ as a seed-stage investor, right? We feel like the more corporates we talk to, the smarter we get.

And then our deal selection gets better. If you were to sort of look out over the next five years and say, these are technology sectors that are really interesting. I mean, you've applied math to infectious diseases. You've evolved into thinking about pharmaceuticals and medical devices with your own professional career.

Outside of that, personally and professionally, as you look forward in the next sort of three, four, five years, is there something that sort of captured your attention or created some curiosity? Sure. So I'll talk about what I spend most of my time thinking about, which is pharmaceuticals and medical devices. And that's the thing in working outside of work, I'm passionate about bringing innovation to patients.

So within JLabs, like I said, we have a focus on both pharma and medical devices here on the Houston site. We're about 50-50 split between the two. Then on the pharma side, J&J has the largest focus in oncology, immunology, and neuroscience. But here in Houston, we have a very significant focus around oncology because we're based on the Texas Medical Center.

We have MD Anderson right next door and other institutions that really excel in cancer. Before I moved to Houston, I wasn't aware of what a clinical center Houston was. But it turns out that there are 4 million people in Houston, and there are 8 million patient visits in Texas Medical Center every year. So either there's something terrible in the water in Houston or people are coming to Houston for clinical treatments, and especially oncology.

So I'll talk about oncology because that's mostly what I see in the ecosystem. I would say that there's, in particular, a huge opportunity in immuno-oncology in the future. So I think quite a bit about in vivo CAR T approaches. So for folks on the call involved in health and life sciences, and particularly CAR T for solid tumors as well, I think those are areas where we're going to see really significant growth.

Let me ask you two questions on the personal front for me. I went to the Mayo Clinic for an executive health check, and they offered an early cancer detection screen. And these are getting more and more popular. Are they legitimate?

What's your sense of this idea of early cancer detection and the screens that are being done as a proactive measure in your own healthcare? So it's tough for me to comment on your specific patient experience. I wouldn't do that. But in terms of the field overall in precision oncology and early detection, I think this is an area where we'll see tremendous growth as well.

We just had a company join JLabs working in dynamic precision oncology, and I think that's a further step in each area that's really exciting. I was fascinated by the study. And I've got a clean bill of health so far, I know there's no guarantee for that. So I was happy to hear that.

The other thing that I found is that I have a tremendous personal interest in empowering people to think about their health care in a different way. And I have found that fitness devices somehow make the connection for most people between movement and their own health care. And so I'm fascinated by the evolution of the Fitbits of the world and the Whoops of the world, if you're familiar. Now the Oura Ring, of which I'm wearing one now, just to look at sleep and calories and stress and all these different things, of thinking about sort of weighing in on your health and how things are going with your body in a more real-time way, in a more proactive way.

Do you view that as the medical device space? How do you view this sort of growing market demand for fitness devices and how that might intersect with health care? So personally, I'm a huge fan of these types of approaches. I wear both an Oura Ring and an Apple Watch.

Huge fan of Peter Attia and his work. So I think as an individual thinking about your health, these are really, really great tools. When we think about medical devices in JLabs, it tends to be more sort of medical technology and medical interventions. But I think these are great tools and there's huge scope and a lot of great people working on those.

Yep. Well, we'll have to keep comparing notes because the dashboards are getting better, the tracking is getting better, the sensors are getting better, the devices themselves are getting smaller and easier to wear. It's a fascinating space. Okay, the rapid-fire portion of the program.

I'm just going to finish up by asking you two questions. All right. I love to hear about how people are sort of preparing for professional excellence and sort of trying to - we're trying to crowdsource best practices on how we can be great investors and continuously improve. Do you think about professional excellence?

Is there anything that you're doing on the professional front to sort of stay at the tip of the spear as it relates to innovation and your own skills? So the most useful thing someone told me about professional excellence is that people are shaped by the first job they have. So if you want to know how somebody thinks fundamentally, it matters whether they went straight to work for McKinsey, went straight into investment banking, you know, whatever it is that they did. And for me, my first job was J&J.

So the way that I have sort of learned to think about this is that J&J and their performance metrics have a what and a how for every aspect of everything that you do, which essentially means that what you do matters and then how you do it matters. That's in terms of the relationships you cultivate and approaching it with ethics and integrity. And so that's always the framework that I use when I think about excellence is that what am I looking to achieve? And then how am I looking to achieve it?

Love it. Absolutely love it. Okay, final question, I promise. Your favorite podcast or industry publication, maybe something that we wouldn't expect where you hear about new ideas or new market trends or things that make you curious.

Oh, I listen to BioTalk all the time. It's a favorite. Podcast. BioTalk.

BioTalk. Okay. I'll have to check it out. Well, Allison, on behalf of Impact Venture Capital and the Kauffman Fellows Network, thank you for spending a little bit of time with us today.

We really appreciate it. Terrific. Delighted to talk with you and happy to take any questions. That's a wrap for this week's show.

We'll see you next time.