111. Celebrating the ADHD Brain at work... Julie Cockerill joins David Guazzarotto on a personal journey exploring neurodiversity in the workplace and beyond.

Speaker A: Welcome to the Humans of hr, a community and a podcast about HR and the world of work. Sharing conversations, interviews and news to keep you informed and entertained.

Speaker B: We're not afraid to ask the questions or go where others won't go. We're real people having real conversations about real topics.

Speaker A: No hidden agendas, no cash for comment. We believe the future of work is now. We are the humans of hr. You ready? Let's do this. Yes. Let's do this. Welcome to the Humans of HR podcast. My name is David Gazzarotto and, uh, I'm your host for today and I'm flying solo today. I usually have a co host, uh, in tow, but, um, I am, uh, out and about and you can probably hear from the background, uh, I'm actually on the deck of our guest who I'm going to introduce shortly. Um, in a very leafy part of Sydney where we are, ah, surrounded by birds and the rustling of leaves. And I hope that's coming through and giving you some soft, nice softness to the, to the audio. So great to be here. We are going to be tackling today a topic that, um, I think is very top of mind to a lot of people in our space. Um, we're going to be focused on neurodiversity. Um, and I'm going to, um, bring into the conversation, um, Julie Cockerill. Great to be here on your back deck here. Julie, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker B: Thank you. So good to be here. So good to be here.

Speaker A: Awesome. Um, Julie, you have a consulting business, coaching business called Lemon Co. Um, and we'll, uh, explore a little bit of that in a moment. Um, but our connection, um, has been kind of kindred spirits. Uh, both of us were put on the schedule for a disrupt HR event. Um, and we both tackled personal topics from a very personal perspective that were, uh, similar. And, uh, I presented on my journey around ADHD and neurodiversity. And I know you tackled a similar topic at the Melbourne event.

Speaker B: I did, yeah. Amazing.

Speaker A: So I think that's an opportunity for us, I guess, to start with. We're going to talk about neurodiversity. We're both going to bring a very personal perspective on this. We're also going to really struggle to stay on track and to keep this thing within the boundaries. Uh, but that's okay.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, we're in flow. That's it. That's for the listeners to judge. So. Well, let's perhaps, let's start with m. Um, why don't you share a little bit of your background and Your journey and, and perhaps land with um, where you're at with the ADHD piece. Yeah. Um, and perhaps I can tap into a little bit of mine to connect with that. So.

Speaker B: Awesome.

Speaker A: Let us know. Um, yeah, tell us a little bit about you, Julie.

Speaker B: Oh, okay. Um, and I always find that a really difficult question because you can come at it from so many different perspectives. But look, um, I am obviously adhd, uh, but I'm, you know, mum of four. I've got two, uh, actual children and two fur children. Uh, I run a business called Lemon Co. And uh, really I focus on transformation of individuals, you know, teams and whole of business and everything I do comes at it from a perspective of strength based, you know, what are people really good at and actually utilizing that. And I think that such a lovely, I suppose, learning for me over the last few years since being diagnosed that in fact it was the discovery of strength science that has really helped me um, I suppose get to know and work better with my ADHD brain, um, which I still think is amazing. But um, it just took me a few years to really embrace it.

Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I certainly feel the same way. I think um, the way that you just described yourself and uh, I think ADHD diagnosis has been challenging for adults. Um, mine was alongside one of my kids and I think that happens to a lot of us that we, we discover a lot about ourselves in the process of working, uh, one of our kids through a diagnosis. That was the um, journey for me. And I think initially I was very skeptical. Like I didn't even want to get my boy Max through the diagnosis. I was like, we're pathologizing boys. You know, it's not a thing. It's just a uh, made up thing. And it wasn't until I went along to some of the sessions and I started to say, wait a minute, that was my experience. Those attributes are things that I have maybe. And so that sort of flicked the switch.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think it's about you said your ADHD brain and understanding that. I think that's the journey. It's understanding and putting into perspective um, what has created difference in you and for you M. And being able to start to understand that better and use it as a superpower.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I had a very similar experience. And when I meet people, it's almost like as soon as you realize you're ADHD or you've been diagnosed, you're meeting other like minded individuals. But I had the same experience. So I took my son to be diagnosed and uh, you know, I Sat there with the doctor asking the questions and I just went, yep, no, that's me. Tick, tick. Yep, that's me. Absolutely. Um, and so I, you know, in the same sort of breath, I'm asking for a referral for uh, my son, I'm asking for a referral for me. And actually my experience was um, I had not even thought about ADHD for myself. Um, and as soon as I got that diagnosis I, I had just such a wave of different types of emotions. Regret, um, I had frustration, uh, a bit of resentment. Why hadn't someone noticed that in me before? And as I started to do the research and the learning around it, I was better able to understand that girls and women were not, not um, thought to have ADHD when I was young. So um, and that's because you know, the ADHD appears quite differently in men and women or boys and girls. So uh, yeah, it's been interesting and it's been about three years since I've been diagnosed and um, actually now that I've learned to work with it, I feel so much more capable, happier. My confidence has increased. Yeah, but that's, that is, that's the biggest change, you know, self understanding. That's the, a game changer.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. I feel the same way. Um, and it's fair to say, I mean you've introduced yourself in your current guys. M. Uh, but your ADHD undiagnosed for most of your career to date.

Speaker B: Yes. Yes.

Speaker A: Did you not get in the way seemingly of a very successful corporate career? Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And so you must have operated to some level of um, proficiency in the neurotypical world?

Speaker B: Yes, um, look, I did. I think you don't know any different. And so you know, you're on um, you're on the corporate ladder. Your uh, work working as if you need to in the corporate environment. Um, and I think some of the challenges that ah, probably were, I overcame with perhaps not the most effective strategies were things like when I had hyper focus. Great. But when I didn't, really hard and so often doing things very much at the last minute or moving things because you couldn't meet deadlines because you couldn't get your brain to work. Um, and just that sense of constant masking and the impacts on your self esteem, you know, am I really good at my job? Am I just um, kind of fake and you know, this isn't really me. And so I think the diagnosis helps you resolve some of those things.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: M. But also, you know, I've operated for nearly 50 years without a diagnosis. And I think that's also what's made me who I am today.

Speaker A: Yeah. So.

Speaker B: And it, and it builds resilience.

Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. Look, I feel very similarly with that. I've, um, I know I've had feedback in various ways over the years, both in a professional sense, in my personal and social lives. Um, that were indicators of adhd, no doubt. I never knew that at the time. I would react to them however I needed to, sometimes constructively, sometimes not. Um, but being able to, um, continue to achieve and succeed in a world that's not designed for you, whether it's the spirit school environment, which is where often, you know, is a lot discussed and I reflect back on my own schooling now and say, oh, well, I understand why, you know, I was always the one that never quite, um, delivered the numbers that, uh, the teachers expected me to for varying reasons. Um, or then I'd shoot the lights out on an exam out of nowhere. Right. So it was about consistency. Um, and I know looking back, some of that was because if I was into something like I would go deep. Um, um, yeah, absolutely. Uh, and that's something with my son Max, we work really hard on, is helping, um, him to find something that really interests him. So if you're doing maths, put it in the context of cricket, you know, do stats. Um, and I realize looking back where I, When I've really been at my best, it's when I am deeply, um, engaged and interested. Um, and I'm now trying to put myself in that position more often than not to exploit that. I've been doing it naturally. I think that's how I've navigated my career today. Um, but you throw admin or, you know, some of those, uh, tasks or activities, uh, that's not going to work.

Speaker B: Yeah, no. And I think that's where, um, you know, playing to your strengths is so important because these are sort of innate abilities that we've built over the years and we're kind of hardwired to work that way and when we're working against it, where we're not going to be as successful, we're not going to be as happy. Um, and you know, that might have some longer term impacts on the way you work, how productive you are, how energised you are. And I know for myself, you know, when I'm doing the work at the moment with clients that I really enjoy, love it. But when I'm writing reports. Yeah, uh, just, just, you know, just kill me.

Speaker A: Really. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: Not, not great.

Speaker A: And that can be challenging when you, uh. And I've been in a situation a few times in my career where you are, uh, running your own show. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So you, and you do have to find ways to get the stuff that you don't naturally like doing done. Um, how do you tend to do, to do that? You can't, can't ignore things to a certain point.

Speaker B: Look, you can't, um, look, I've got, um, two ways I do it. One is I leave it right to the last minute and then I know I've got the deadline. And that's been a really successful strategy for me for many, many years. Um, uh, the other thing that I do is I will try to sandwich it with other things. So, you know, I love planning. I'm really good at that. It's a key strength for me. Um, and so what I might do is I might say, okay, well look, I've got a project, I've got a plan for. I'm going to do that first. I'm going to do the, the task I don't really love and then I'll do something else afterwards that's, that's really engaging. Um, and then, you know, funnily enough, it just happens. But sometimes it just takes me a while to kind of fix, figure out, okay, I've got to do that. I can't leave it to the last minute. That's too stressful and I don't always do my best work. Although majority of the time I do.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that's an interesting one. I think I can relate definitely to um, the self imposed crisis.

Speaker B: Yes, absolutely.

Speaker A: Um, and that's. I was always, I used to, that's probably still due to an extent, um, describe myself as a pressure completer, um, and a first draft type. Right. I think I've always seen that as, uh, the risk of that has always been using that as an excuse like you're lazy, you're a procrastinator. These are all the sort of things that people with ADHD do get tagged with as well. Um, and I used to beat myself up a lot. Why the hell didn't I start that piece of work three weeks ago? I had the time there and now I've got an all nighter again. And then I wake up, don't wake up. I get up in the morning having done the all nighter and I look at that piece of work and I go, that is a magnificent piece of work. Wow. Um, and part of me says, wow, how good could it have been if it had been the seventh refinement. And the times when I have done the, you know, three weeks in advance stage things through refined. And I do a lot of that with client work. Right. Because you're doing that quite collaboratively. Um, often it doesn't get much better for my contribution. It's a really weird thing. So I've now. And my team actually knows this. Many of them probably listening to this. Um, they know when to bring DG in and they kind of go, these are the four things you need to know. Um, and you've got until 3 o' clock to get back to us with it. Bang, bang, bang, bang. Here it is.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And you know, usually I've given them something, um, that might take other people a few days to corral together.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and it may not be perfect because one of the. I think one of the bits of kryptonite for, um, those of us with adhd, um, is we're not really. Well, I don't know. You might be different. I'm not driven. Um, I don't get a sense of satisfaction from completing something ever. Um, so because I'm already on to the next thing, I'm like, damn, it's like even reading a book. There's so many books beside my bed that there's a dog ear on the last chapter. I, um, committed myself to eight seasons, or whatever it was of Game of Thrones. To this day, my wife has. But I have not watched the last three episodes of last season. I got no idea who sat on that Iron Throne at the end.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And it's weird.

Speaker B: Look. And I think there's so many things in that listeners.

Speaker A: This has turned into a counseling system. We knew it would.

Speaker B: Look, there's so many things in that, isn't there?

Speaker A: There's.

Speaker B: There's the, um, the dopamine chasing, which is what you get with obviously completing tasks or doing things that excite you. There's this, um, perfectionism. And, you know, do we. I mean, you gave a great example of completing a task and looking at it and going, actually, that's really good. Uh, but what happens if I'd actually done that, you know, in seven drafts, you know, it could have been better.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so we, um, we often turn to that, you know, perfectionism, um, review and what is perfect.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so then that creates a cycle of beating itself up. And look, I've been doing that for years. Uh, you know, but what I have learned about myself is there. And there's probably. There's a whole raft of things. But in this particular instance, one is that perfectionism does not exist. It's really just achieving a standard and you know, you know in yourself whether that is good enough.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: And then the other thing that I would say is that, you know, through this sort of lens of growth, mindset, you know, what are you learning in the moment? Okay, well, I've learned that actually that is good enough. Okay. What else have you learned? Um, that, you know, I don't need to work as hard to get the same outcome. Um, or, you know, are there other ways that I can look at this, um, and achieve the same outcome or can I collaborate with someone and get the same outcome? Or can you use chat GPT and get the same outcome?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I'm looking for shortcuts. That's something we're good at.

Speaker B: Very good.

Speaker A: The perfect, uh, perfectionism for me plays out more at the starting something for some strange reason, um, because I kind of want things to be set up. I keep going through a process of, right, how am I going to tackle this? And I just continue to spin through that. Once I get going then that usually is a smash it out, get it done type scenario. It's an interesting thing to explore. I don't know whether that is perfectionism. I feel like, um, it's either perfectionism or it's a bit of imposter syndrome, which is something I have always felt a bit of over the years, um, for a lot of the reasons you've just been describing. Right. Um, am m I worthy of this particular job in this particular organisation or am I worthy of being in this relationship? Um, am I a bit of a fraud? Because, um, I don't seem to have to work at these things as much as the person next to me to produce a similar output. But they're always punctual and doing things on time and not disrupting meetings as much and all of this stuff. There's something in there around that notion of imposter syndrome that certainly, um, has weighed on me a bit over the years because I kind of go, how come? Yeah, how ah, come I'm being offered these opportunities? How did I. Who hasn't really trodden the traditional path or haven't completed things that I thought you might have to to reach the next level. Yeah.

Speaker B: And I, I'm wondering, I mean one of the, the great strengths of someone with an ADHD brain is, is that entrepreneurship?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: That ability to, you know, see ideas, um, strategize, you know, think of things in a non linear way. And, you know, that is such a. That is a massive superpower.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and I think you, you know, with. With our kind of. Our lens of we're not good enough or it's an imposter syndrome, you know, where we're so sort of set on. We've got to take these steps in this linear order. No, you don't.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: And if you. If you look at all of the really successful people in the world, they've taken lots of, you know, sharp turns and fallen down over here and stepped up over there, and that's okay. There's no one way of doing it.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think we learn by doing a lot as well. Um, that was something that, when I looked at Max, my son, he, um, was always so his older brother. Even the playground, you look at them and you could see, um, the older sibling processing and doing a bit of a risk assuming assessment before taking the plunge. Whereas Max would take the plunge, get up, shake himself loose and go, oh, all right. Well, that's probably not something I should do again or, wow, that was fantastic. And I'm going to do it twice as hard from here. Um, I know that's a, uh, that's something that I've also, um, It's a trait of mine as well. And I think that's just part of that. Gives us an immense cat. Capacity to learn quickly, too, in an unstructured way.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I was never as successful as perhaps my intelligence, um, and the opportunities I've been presented, um, should have, um, enabled.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because I then have the bits of paper that I probably, um, you know, could have. I had the intellectual capacity and the resources to be able to do. But, uh, I'm very quick to pick up on things. I'm great at the big picture stuff. I understand concepts, I pick them up really quickly. And usually I've got to slow down to keep people on the train a bit with that stuff. Um, and I didn't really understand that until I learned about my brain more recently.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that's one of the challenges as a leader. You know, I've been reflecting quite a lot on my own experience as, uh, a leader. And I would say one of the great things was that I knew how to maximize talent. That's a key strength. So I can see people's capacity even when they can't. And, you know, I can provide them with tasks or projects that actually help to build that and build their confidence. Um, you know, the, the. Perhaps the other side is that I want to move really quickly I can see what needs to be done and I'm not interested in waiting and it all needs to be done now. And so the issue often is that, you know, our sense of kind of what does done mean versus another person sense, sense of what it does to mean, um, is often very different. And so your team members will be working really well, that they'll be stressed out. Yeah, because I would have gone, right, I'm going to do this and then I've moved on to the next thing and oh, by the way, I'm doing this.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so I can achieve an enormous amount and the team can look back and go, yeah, great, we're really proud, but they're probably all exhausted.

Speaker A: Yes. Yeah, that's definitely something that I do relate to personally as well. Burnout. For, uh, those of us with an ADHD brain, that's a real thing as well. But I think that's a really interesting perspective and rather than being too much about ourselves here, I think the impact positively and I guess negatively on the people around us is worthy of exploration. I think you touched on something really interesting and really important there that um, it's hard for people who aren't wired the same way to work the same way. And that's something that I have found myself getting better at over time, is enabling people to work with me and to, for that to be accretive too. Um, and that's not easy. It's not something you can do naturally. It's something you've got to keep working at and you've got to be something that I think ADHD people are, uh, does help with that is the people pleasing. So we are uh, big people pleasers. So if I see someone struggling or not really getting something, I'm not going to, you know, roll my eye, you know, roll my eyes and go, you know, why don't you get it? I'm going to roll my sleeves up and go, how else can I explain this? How else can we uh, how do you see this? And I think those are things that you work on over time as well. It is hard to work alongside people with adhd.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Unless you structure something to enable that.

Speaker B: Yeah. I had a great conversation last week with um, a lady who has just been promoted into senior sales director role and her direct report is adhd. And you know, we, we talked about a particular example of where she is running sort of 15 minute task oriented meetings and you know, he is doing lots of talking and you know that's impacting on her time. And so as a Leader of someone who is adhd. It's really, really key to set boundaries. You know these meetings are to do this. If we want more time together then you know, let's put some more time in. The other thing that uh, we were talking about is that ADHDers often look for validation.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Because we are so, um, we mask often but we also have this constant sense of are we good enough? Um, are we doing enough? You know, is the outcome good enough? And so somebody who is not nurturing or a good coach leading a team with an ADHD person in it, um, is going to have to learn really really hard quickly or that's just not going to be a match.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, because ADHD people with ADHD need to find nurturers to help them.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: That's really important.

Speaker A: It's really, that's a really insightful point. Um, I had a, and I have manager, uh, now mentor. Haven't caught up with him for ages. But um, who was the pivotal person for me and this. I didn't know I had adhd. I was just, I just worked differently in the corporate world particularly. I'd come up for annual reviews or quarterly reviews, performance reviews and the same discussions would be had. You're overachieving on these KPIs here and here. You're delivering great value, um, development opportunities, time management. Every time time management and managing your inbox. This particular uh, person, Dave Denham, um, legend who managed me, I remember saliently a performance review conversation with him where he said um. Because I kind of led him and said and I suppose you're going to tell me I've got to go on time management course. No, quite the opposite. He's a Yorkshireman. I went to his accent. Um, quite the opposite. Like you work differently. Um, and I don't want to dial that back dumb that down you get. Somehow you get stuff done. It might not be typical.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and it, and when it's not disrupting anything, I don't feel like that's something that we need you to be going off and doing course. I'd much rather you develop your strengths as one of these innate strengths based leaders. Um, and this goes back 20 years.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker A: Um, and so from that moment on I felt um, well there was validation and I felt like um, I didn't have to demonstrate achievement on the same scorecard as everyone else.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because I think that's a real challenge if I think about ways in which we can support people with neurodiversity. And it doesn't matter whether it's adhd, whether it's someone on the spectrum of autism, um, however that difference is we need to be able to structure how we define performance and how we provide that feedback, um, in a way that relates to who they are and how they bring it. I think we're getting a lot better at the. That a lot of work to do.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's a really interesting one because I think, you know, and we had this conversation, um, a couple of weeks ago that we've got a whole, ah, lot of leaders that, you know, don't necessarily have the capability to lead a diverse group of people. Yes, they are really learning the basics of management. So that is going to be the challenge for the future workforce coming through if we don't significantly lift capability. And some of that is also understanding what does talent look like? M. Because talent is not just people who want to be leaders. And so, you know, you could have some people like yourself who was amazing at delivering and doing great projects and you obviously should be identified as a talented person, but not necessarily as a leader. And so I just, I just think we need to, we need to get down to a basis of individualization, creating something, strategies for each team member so that they can thrive. And that actually means that leaders need to do that work for themselves. Yeah, and that's not always the case. We're on this kind of, you know, constant, um, corporate, um, you know, um, travel later, if you want to call it that. And there's no time to reflect, there's no time to really coach. So there's some really fundamental things in organizations that need to shift in order for leaders to have time to actually become better at what they do.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's a really important point. And I'm going to pull you up on the term leader for a moment here.

Speaker B: Oh, uh, yes.

Speaker A: Because I think that's part of the challenge here. It tends to be too synonymous with management. A manager and a. And yet there are people who are both and are great at both. But in my mind there's a real distinction and I think, um, for M, me, and maybe this is a strength in ADHD people, I'm actually much better as a leader than as a manager. I'm a crap manager. And anyone who's reported to me in any context knows that I'm a crap manager on the home front, you know, um, but vision, uh, taking people on the journey, really helping to understand difference and be respectful of it and look to exploit that. All those things come in, you know, I Don't have to do an MBA or a leadership course for that for some reason. But the management stuff. And so I had a real problem in my corporate career when I got in the middle. Yeah. The middle management stuff was where I just wasn't, I was a square pegging around hole.

Speaker B: Yeah. And you're being sandwiched. Right. You're right in the middle of that. It's all coming down, it's all coming up and there's.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, yeah.

Speaker A: So my out was to go sideways, build my own business.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Be an entrepreneur. Ah, yeah. And lead. Yeah. Um, and, and now I would define myself as a leader as opposed to a manager.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: Um, uh, and I think it's important that that distinction is made too. Um, I know we'd rather call uh, our managers and organisations, our people leaders and they should be, they should be leaders.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But they also, they have to manage. They still have to get the work done and they still have to keep within the boundaries of compliance and whatever else that has to be done.

Speaker B: Absolutely.

Speaker A: So both things are important and they can be, I think they can be separate capabilities. Um, as well. M. Interesting.

Speaker B: But I think the key is always self leadership.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: So you know, the more that you know yourself the better able you are to lead others. You know, lead, self lead.

Speaker A: And that's, that's, that's, that's something that plays um, for. I don't like the terms by the way. We're going to work on this over the next six months together. We're gonna, we're gonna take charge of this. I don't like neurodiversity as a term. It is descriptive and I, I know what is. But it's speaks to disability in my mind or a difference that we have to accommodate. Um, yeah. Because then we say everyone else is neurotypical. We don't call out people in the workforce who are right handed or left handed, do we? Unless I mean there might be jobs out there where if you're left handed you could hurt yourself and maybe. But that aside.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And that's kind of the proportion of the population.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: That are ADHD or neurodiverse. It's kind of like 14, 15% same for left handers. So why are we trying to um, differentiate them? Us? Uh, I don't know. This is a challenging one because there's a. I was in my early career I was responsible for diversity from the more traditional sense of that in a very large organization in Australia. Coles Meyer and I learned a lot about the need to, if you want to be inclusive, um, you may have to go through periods of time where you uh, proactively have to um, uh, soup up that particular uh, minority so that it has more strength and is supported better ultimately so that you don't have to do something different. It just becomes, you know, they've just become part of your diverse workforce.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's such an interesting one because often we provide labels so that we can start to understand it whether that's right or wrong. And it's certainly not necessarily right and it's not necessarily wrong. Um, but I ran a neurodiversity at work session with a company yesterday and it was fantastic session and we, the question was raised, should we differentiate neurodiversity as part of our overall diversity strategy?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I said look, in an ideal world you would not need to um, because in fact your diversity strategy is just your people strategy. There should be no need for a separate strategy. But, but unfortunately we are in a world where we need a focus period of time where we're educating, um, and we're creating an environment where different people can fit and work differently.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and look, you know, I think the, the ideal situation is that you, you call it out as a um, diversity strategy. This is covered under our diversity strategy. And here are some of the accommodations, here's the education, this is how we help people. Um, and that's also really important from M, the employment value proposition so that people who are neurodiverse can feel safe but in an ideal world wouldn't need to.

Speaker A: There's still a lot of stigma and like I'm still, as I said at the start of this conversation, um, that presentation I did@Disrupt HR was me outing myself, use that term. Um, it's the first time I've openly, in a professional context, um, put the label upon myself and done so proudly and explained in that little five minute presentation just how that presents its superpowers where the Kryptonite is and had a go at putting a few suggestions out as to how we can support people in the workforce and to get the, you know, get the best uh, out of them. I'm still uh, uh, the reaction I got was phenomenal and still is. I'm m still still getting people on LinkedIn or when I'm seeing them out and about saying wow, thank you for sharing your story. It's made me think differently. Or the other side of that is, um, I've not told anyone that I have an ADHD brain and I now feel more confident to do so with what you shared, which is quite nice. I've got a couple of people who now I'm going to have cups of coffee with and help them through that a bit, too. Um, and, uh, yet I still. I don't think I'm at a point now of putting on my LinkedIn profile or putting it out there as part of my bio. I'm not sure. Maybe after this podcast I might be. But the point being, the reason for that is I still have a little bit in my. I'm still aware of the stigma of a stigma, and even it just happens. Uh, I guess it's, um. I'm experiencing. This is a lived experience of anyone who's been a minority and is too. Right. So that's really, uh. That just thought crashed on me then, by the way. Yeah, yeah, no doubt.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, as. As a female in certain workforce places, you know, if you are lgbtiq. Uh, you know, there's. There's, you know, this unconscious bias that goes on. This conscious bias that goes on. It's definitely there with adhd. It's used as a derogatory term. I'm. I can be in workshops where someone says, I'm having an ADHD moment. Yeah. Like. Yeah. Uh, as a, uh, as a child, derogatory thing. Not as a. I found a superpower suddenly, and it's like those people with adhd.

Speaker B: Yeah. And this is an interesting one because, um, I. I think actually you don't need to.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: You go with whatever you feel is important.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it is. It's just your brain. It's just the way it works. You. You know, we don't have people who perhaps are on the spectrum, um, put in ASD on their, um, on their profile. It doesn't matter.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it shouldn't matter. Um, and I don't know whether, you know, if somebody. If somebody's lgbtqi, plus, you know, if they're putting it on their profile.

Speaker A: Again, you're right.

Speaker B: Just doesn't matter.

Speaker A: Absolutely right. Yeah. It shouldn't be. If we're concerned about the labels, don't put one on yourself. Don't put it. Just be who you are.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And people are becoming astute enough and probably aware enough. I mean, we often are aware of people who perhaps, um, you know, present with different aspects of diversity. Some of them are very obvious. If there's a gender, if there's a racial one, for example.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker A: Um. Or a gender one, for that matter. Although that can be also complicated at times, too.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Um, but you're Absolutely right. The more we try to lean into a label, the more it becomes stigmatised, I guess, because we're actually. It's like, you know, I've got an Italian background and all through school I was called a wog for a derogatory. But then suddenly it became cool. And so the term wog was actually

Speaker B: come to your house for the best meals. Yeah.

Speaker A: And all that stuff. I don't know. Geez, we. We could. I don't know when we're going to stop this conversation.

Speaker B: I know, I know we're gonna have to.

Speaker A: At some point.

Speaker B: We're going to have to. And, and I would just say on. On this topic that, you know, the labels are really interesting. Um, and I think language is a real. Is really important in this game.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: So if you're not. Not ADHD or you don't have OCD or you're not on the spectrum or whatever else it might be, then don't label yourself as such. Um, don't self diagnose.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: If you're really worried about it, go and get a formal diagnosis.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: This, the language in organizations and I, I think people, you know, most of the, of the time want to do the right thing, they want to say the right thing, um, be the best person, best version of themselves. Unfortunately, people are human and they make mistakes and they say the wrong things sometimes. And so, you know, if it's. If it's once, great, if it's lots of time, then it's culture.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, you know, that's where this is. The education piece is so important and setting really clear boundaries around what is appropriate in our culture and what isn't, from a corporate perspective, um, you know, that's the most important thing in the

Speaker A: diversity conversation, broadly right across the board. Absolutely. I think this is just. And that's where I landed in my presentation. I kind of think that the final slide was, um, don't see this as a disability reform of disability. It's a flavour of diversity. So reframing rather than we have to support, we have to change the work arrangements or whatever. Um, no, it's about inclusion, it's about valuing the difference and knowing that that makes the organisation culturally and probably from a performance perspective, better than its competitors. If you can harness that.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely right. Absolutely right. You know, the last thing I would say is that, you know, with. In my own experience, talking about my own ADHD has actually been really helpful for removing the mask and actually being the true version of myself.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, you know, I had people Say to me, gosh, you know, over the last three years, when I knew you in corporate, now I'm, you know, I'm seeing you, you are so much more vibrant. Because I'm not controlling myself because I actually don't know why I'm operating like this.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. So now that I know who I am, really, and this is just a flavor of my brain, kind of feel like I can be more authentic.

Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's the key. That's m. When you were talking. Then there's, you know, when we talk about leadership.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Those are the terms we're using. Right. In 2023.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: It's authentic. It's being vulnerable.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: As well. And what you've just described is your, your own, um, willingness to be vulnerable.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And to say, this is a part of me, you know, and, you know, judge me if you want or see me for who I am or be

Speaker B: m. Curious and ask me about it.

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool. Well, look, I think that's a really nice positive note for us to draw this conversation to a close.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: I feel like there's a series coming on here and look, I know. I'm sure if there are any listeners left, whether you think this has been so self indulgent that you, you didn't stay the journey on the 40 odd minutes. Um, that's fair. That's. That's cool. But I hope, um, you've taken something away from this as well. Um, I've really enjoyed. Yeah. Our chat out here on your, uh, back veranda.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: With the garbage trucks going past the birds and all that stuff. So.

Speaker B: And the fire alarm checking, man.

Speaker A: Thanks for the, uh. Yeah, thanks for the hospitality and, um, uh, really valuable conversations.

Speaker B: Great conversation. Thank you for having.

Speaker A: Yeah. And we will probably put all of your details into the show notes and uh, I know if anyone does want to explore this topic further and get some support in the organization personally, Julie is the person on the line.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: For sure. So, Julie Cockerill, thank you so much.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker A: We will, uh, catch you again soon.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Wonderful. Thank you.

Speaker A: You've been listening to another episode of the Humans of HR podcast powered by you, our, uh, fabulous humans of HR community. Be sure to spread the word and. And help us build this community. Leave a rating review and subscribe through your favorite podcast player and head over to our website, humansofhr.com for more great content and to connect to the community. Thanks for listening. Catch you next time. Sa.