A2A | Leading People Across Borders and Eras with Mauro Ghilardi

Speaker A: In Today's episode of HR Visionaries, we talk to Mauro from A2A. We talk about his long history in the HR space and also how to reskill people. What it means for the human element to be tech driven. Stay tuned. Welcome to Age of Visionaries, the show where we discover the truth behind contemporary hr. I'm your host, Benjamin. Join me as I unfold today's talent ecosystem with HR innovators from around the globe.

Speaker B: Welcome to the latest episode of HR Visionaries. I'm very much looking forward to my guest today. Maro, it's great to have you.

Speaker C: Great to be here. Thank you very much for the invitation.

Speaker B: Can you tell us a bit about yourself? Who are you?

Speaker C: Who am I? So I'm, uh, I'm Italian. I, I studied economy and uh, since the very early days of my studies, I wanted to work in, in uh, hr, although I didn't quite know what that means. But uh, you know, one of the things that I like at university, uh, organization, uh, studies that they did. Um, and uh, during university I started working for an American company, um, and had been there for 10 years and then moved on and worked in, uh, different countries. So I worked one year, uh, in France, eight years in Switzerland in two different locations, couple years in the States, one year in Brazil. And finally in 2016, I came back to, uh, Italy, where I've been since uh, then. And personally I'm married since 34 years. I have two kids, daughters, but they're not kids any longer. So they are 24 and 20 and 21. And they're off to uh, other part of the world as well. So they're studying elsewhere, not in Italy.

Speaker B: Um, it's very interesting. You said, um, well, you liked HR already in university. So most of the people here on HR Visionaries always tell me the story of, well, um, uh, through some random, um, random events they entered into hr. However, for you, it was kind of like the place to be.

Speaker C: It was the place to be. I did economy, so I'm with, uh, focusing on managing companies. And uh, one of the basic studies that you do is, uh, organization theories. Right. And I kind of liked it. I kind of liked the idea. I mean, I didn't quite know what that means, to be honest. But I like the concept of being in charge of the people side of uh, things and processes, uh, and systems. So that's what attracted me and eventually I think attracted me the fact that, uh, I also did quite well, uh, in that course. So I guess that was combination of two things.

Speaker B: Um, well, you worked abroad quite uh, a long time. HR always ah, looks a bit different in every jurisdiction. No?

Speaker C: Well you know I've been lucky enough not to work uh so much on the, I would call the legal side of the union side of hr. I mean of course I work in companies and you know the side of you know managing contract and managing legal disputes was always there. Um, but never in companies in which this was the core topic. So the core topic was around the you know, change management, was around hiring people, was around you know motivating people, engaging them. So on that end there is more commonalities than not on the, on this side. So it's uh. And I also had, I was lucky enough to work in uh abroad in uh truly global company. So in which the reality of being working in Italy or in uh, Germany or in Switzerland or in the US wasn't so different uh from one place to another. So I think was the company was more important than the location in a way.

Speaker B: M. What do you like most about HR these days?

Speaker C: Um, I like most the fact that uh, you can and this is dot uh you know, lip service. I mean, I mean it. I've been working in HR since uh 1989. So it's quite a lot, quite a long time. Um, I like the fact that if you do really a good job you can really influence and shape uh, uh for the better uh organization. So I did some many years ago in fact ah some work on myself and uh, went a little bit deeper on what is important for me. Uh and I came up with uh. My essence, my core purpose is. My core purpose is around influencing people and shaping companies to create an environment in which people can flourish. Uh I do see myself as uh. Although I'm terrible at gardening so it's more of a gardening, a gardener that uh take care of creating the good ground and the right place where people can apply and can become uh, themselves and provide a good environment for people and companies to flourish.

Speaker B: Um, well in particular the issue around influencing organizations, I find that very important indeed given um. Well it is a completely different kind of self identification of hrs. So either I influence organizations, make entire organizations more productive or I well just work on admin tasks and make sure payroll is done right. So these are two very different ways how to look at hr.

Speaker C: They are two very different. I would say that there is a. When I see influencing for me. Why is influencing important? I was offered many times um in my life to take more of a line leadership role uh to become more about kind of A general manager or whatever. Uh, and even today I do hr, but I do other things. So I am in charge of procurement, I am in charge of real estate, I'm in charge of the full back office services. I uh, do see myself uh, uh, uh, more as a servant leader in the sense of I'm here to make sure that the company shines, that the top team, the CEO of the company shine. So in the void I'm very much in the forefront a lot of time. So to me it's more about uh, helping others to be successful rather than being in the center spot. So it's uh, uh that's why I'm talking more about influencing because I do truly believe that uh, it's not only by having a great HR person that act and does things, uh, that you can do create companies but it's more coordinating uh, and creating an environment through again as I said, influencing other leaders.

Speaker B: How has that kind of approach changed over the last years? So um, I think there are still many organizations where HR is seen more as an administrative role, not really a role that um, well influences the organization.

Speaker C: Well it's funny right? So let me tell you a bit about some anecdotes, some more recent and some goes back a few years ago. So uh, you know two days ago, literally two days ago I was in a, in a uh, in a, in a meeting with other uh, entrepreneur was more of an entrepreneur type of meeting in which they were complaining about uh, the fact that you cannot find people, that people are not qualified, that there is not workforce and blah blah blah. And uh, and uh, and so we were discussing why is this right? And uh, and somebody said you know, but there is a lot of talent pool. Uh you know there is a lot of women in this uh, in this country that are not employed. So we are way below the European average on that. Uh there is a lot of uh, people coming from different culture, migrants that are there and we can include them. And uh, the reaction especially on women was yeah but you know if we want to have women I think we need to change the way we are uh organized so we, because women want part time women have uh, different needs, blah blah blah. Uh, and that's where I lost it. Basically. I would say you know, well if you're not able to change your uh, uh the way you are organized, right at the end of the day you will never be able to be successful and you will never be able to provide uh, your company the workforce that they need. So go back to your question saying you Know, I do see HR as somebody that is able to let people understand, let your bosses or manager or entrepreneur, whatever understand that, you know, walking on the, on the same path that they did and uh, they were successful maybe 10, 20, 30 years ago is no longer, is no longer in reality what they need. Uh, another, another big topic for me is all the diversity, equity and inclusion policy that we discuss these days. Right. So. And uh, a lot of companies are, are going back and say, oh, this is no longer interesting or needed. And I'm thinking, you know, two things. I'm thinking one is so when you implemented these things some years ago, you weren't convinced really. So it was more like again, leap services. And two, I do believe that uh, these are still something we need to work on and need to maintain, you know, a straight direction, maybe to do better, maybe to do things that uh, we didn't do well, because there are many things that we didn't do well. But going backwards, I don't think it's going to help anybody. So I do see HR as the uh, almost like the conscience of the company in front of the manager. To say, you know, this is really important. So it's definitely not an administrative task. In my mind, uh, M is more of a leadership role.

Speaker B: In fact, um, well, I would love to talk more about this indeed, given, um, the role of hr, uh, in particular in light of, well, reskilling of the entire workforce. Um, well, just keeping in mind, well with the AI revolution, many, many things will change and therefore reskilling of the organization might be one of the key tasks going forward. And HR can play a very, uh, significant role in that.

Speaker C: Well, it is a great responsibility we have. Right. And it's a great opportunity. What bothers me or worries me, in fact, not doesn't bother me, worries me. In fact, uh, all the reskilling, upskilling, all this, uh, skilling something um, is uh, around how do we truly motivate people, uh, to take a leading role for themselves in this. Right. So one, one of the things that I am personally struggling in my company and my company, just to give you a sense, is, uh, we have 14,000 people. Roughly half of them are blue collar and alpha are white collar. Uh, we have been for many years a company owned by, uh, municipalities. So the culture here, uh, is around performance. But it's not a culture in which people feel like that if you don't do things, you get laid off or anything. So it's more of a, uh. There is more accommodating in a way. So we are doing well, we are growing a lot. But still the culture is almost like a family mother type of culture. So my sense is I don't feel that there is people feeling the pressure of getting up to the latest technology, uh, refreshing the skills, uh, uh, or being uh, on top of what they need to do in terms of upskilling themselves. So I think that we have uh, the tools, we have the ideas, we have the technology and the processes. What uh, we are kind of working on is how do we motivate people to do that. Uh and that's a combination of you know, our responsibility as HR and manager. So I, I do see everything we do as a triangle. Right? So in one end you have hr, in one end you have the employees. In the third end you have basically the firm axis of a triangle. You have a manager and you need to work through them because otherwise nothing is going to happen.

Speaker B: Um, well um, how do you make sure that this triangle is honored? So um, in particular um, so a manager may be inclined to ignore hr uh whether it makes sense or not I leave open for the moment. But uh, that it may be something that it some managers try to do.

Speaker C: So the problem here is not around ignoring HR. Um actually in fact we are quite fortunate in A2A uh we do have respect. We have gained the respect over the many years not since I've been here but even before obviously um, uh the problem is that at times I believe that uh, uh the manager have ah short term focus and they need to do things. We need to guarantee the service for the day and uh, anything that comes into that is meant or perceived to be a distraction to them. So I feel that the effort is a continuous effort on educating them on what is the long term and what is the long term benefit for them and for their employee to work on some direction. So that's really key. So it's not about being ignored but explaining, re explaining, reconfirming what is the need. I mean a number of things that we do do not see the cycle through the day, the month, the year but you don't. You see the cycle in three, five, six, ten years. So you need to let people understand that what is the long term vision. So having a clear strategy, we do have a clear strategy on business. Having a clear strategy on people and we do have a clear strategy on people is definitely helping us to make sure that they understand. The other thing is of course education and uh, uh, a lot of convincing again influencing as I said at the beginning,

Speaker B: how do you picture hr, uh, in five years time.

Speaker C: So if you were asking me what you would picture HR 20 years ago, uh, I would say I wish or I think that HR at some point should work on their self extinction. Right. So I think that uh, uh, we should aim to have a company in which uh, HR is no longer existing. Because if you are truly, if you're being truly responsible and capable of creating a culture in which uh, manager take care of the employees, I think that HR in a number of occasions is playing a substitute role of things that the manager has to do. Right. So if you're asking me again 20 years ago, the beginning of this century, do you see a company with hr, a successful company with HR in the future? I would say probably not. And some companies went more or less far in that direction. Right. I think some of the tech company, I think Google uh, went to the extreme of pushing a lot of things toward manager and rightly so. I think uh, Now I do think that today if there is more and more and more complexity and I don't think that manager will be able, even the more enlightened manager will be able to do that, uh, truly. So I see HR as the guardian of uh, the values of a company in a way, uh, as I said, the one set in the moral compass around the organization, uh, but also the one that have uh, the ability to see forward what is coming. So it's uh, um, you know I do see a lot of managers busy, as I said on the day to day and not able to look a little bit on the horizon of what's coming. And they almost see us as being able to watch on the horizon, being aware of what are the major changes that are coming and getting the people ready for that. Um, I do believe that there is a lot of things that we can streamline. I mean I really am really uh, optimistic around the AI. I mean at least for my organization. I think it's going to be a tremendous change. There's going to be people probably that are not going to be able to do the work, uh, the work itself, uh, will not be there eventually. Uh, but on the other hand I think that there's going to be a lot of people that can free up energy and do more interesting stuff and to move away from trivial burden, uh, bureaucratic activities. So I don't know if I answered your question Ben. I uh, do see there is a role for HR definitely uh, if we are able to elevate our game, if we stay as you said before, on payroll, administrative, uh, Bureaucratic task we will be washed away by Gen AI or whatever come next.

Speaker B: Okay, I have um, a few follow up questions. Uh um you just mentioned that AI can ease the burden on hr. What kind of tasks do you have in mind? What do you think can be done by AI to free up capacity at HR professionals?

Speaker C: So uh, we have a lot of uh um activities which are in the payroll field, uh managing travel expenses, managing onboarding of employees um that can be freed up. Um but what I'm really thinking would be the big advantage would be in two fields. One is ah uh ah training and uh education. I think elements will definitely be able to provide more ability for a vast number of people to be trained in a very quick and effective way. So I do see less and less work on um creating coursework uh and uh training and more taking advantage of that. And then the HR people, the learning people will become truly learning consultant and being able to help people to apply what they have learned and control that this is happening. So maybe working more with the people and less in the background. And that's one to me. The second one is everything related to staffing, um uh recruitment and selection of people uh will become much uh more streamlined uh uh so much less cumbersome with the organization around setting up meetings, checking references, blah blah blah would be much easier. Uh and when it comes to all the administrative part which is uh compensation management, uh bonus uh uh calculation and things like that again that's one thing I believe we will be able to do in a much easier way. So if I think of these three things would be important. There is a fourth field which is technically I'm not sure where it sits in either organization. It doesn't sit with HR with me but as I told you I'm in charge of uh uh uh procurement uh as well. So we do have an issue in Italy around controlling that our supplier and uh the company that supply our suppliers are compliant with all the regulation. And this is extremely complicated at the moment. Extremely complicated that somebody down the road is applying the right labor contract, is paying the right people the right money and so on. And, and today it's extremely complicated to do this check. I think that with Gen AI and this type of uh uh algorithm will be much easier for us to do it so you know to guarantee compliance Reputation also on the, on the boundary, on the, on what is outside the boundary of the company but still can impact your can impact your reputation.

Speaker B: Um the issue working more with people. I think most of the HR people would agree that this is desirable. However, I was wondering. We all agree that this is the way to go. However, there are, uh, many, many people are still concerned about the development around AI Whether it will take their job. I would definitely argue, well, it won't take. Take jobs. One needs to be agile, of course, to. Well, to.

Speaker A: To.

Speaker B: To. To. And be mindful of. Of changes. But, but, but how do you deal with these concerns?

Speaker C: Look, there is one m. Simple fact that people seems to forget. Uh, you know, Europe is on the. Since many years and Italy is the worst on that. On the edge of, uh, a demographic crisis. Right. So we have much less people than jobs. Right. And unfortunately, the narratives, at least on our, uh, Italian level, is changing very slowly. So still today there is more, uh, news, uh, press on, uh, a company closing down and 200 people losing their jobs than thousands of people, thousands of jobs which do not have people to fit in. Right. So I deal with that in this way. As you said, you need to be agile, you need to be flexible. Uh, you need to put under discussion some of your choices. Right? Because, you know, you might have a job, uh, based on one location today and the next job might be elsewhere. So there is a. There is some accommodation on the other end. You know, remote working is becoming more and more prevalent. So, you know, we have a lot of people working, you know, 3, 4, 500 kilometers away from our head offices. Uh, as I said, there is much less people than jobs available. So in fact, if there is one thing I'm concerned and what I tell to people is not about people not having jobs, is around, uh, jobs not having people. Uh, that's what, uh, you know, keeps me awake at night. And especially in our country where, you know, we do see a lot of, uh, a young generation going away, uh, to find, uh, to find jobs and education elsewhere. That's a real concern for the country, I think.

Speaker B: Um, well, um, I couldn't agree more. Um, I think all, uh, advance in technology in the past has always shown. Okay, well, there's never an issue there that technology replaces people in the medium term. But it's still, I think when it comes to AI, uh, probably the speed of the development that, well, concerns people.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, it's true. On the other end, uh, you know, one thing we are doing is, uh, at the moment we are in fact training the managers. So we have about 13, 1400 managers in the company. So we are making them aware of what AI means, what you can do with it. Uh, and it's not technical, right? It's not like you know, uh, learning how to use ChatGPT or Copilot or whatever other thing is more around on a more conceptual, philosophical level. Because I feel that they need to be experienced in that, they need to play with that and to understand from themselves what they can do. Um, and then they can talk to people, they can learn to people. But as I said, uh, it was funny because, yes, I do this, uh, session with my team. So I have about 200 people in HR. So I. On a specific topic, I meet 10, 12 people, uh, every week, uh, for lunch or for coffee. And uh, yesterday one of the top. The topic of uh, uh, AI came up and there was this guy that was probably, I mean, I would say 64, 65, um, so definitely at the end of his working cycle. And he was telling me how excited he was to learn Copilot. So we have deployed copilot inside, inside A2A. Uh, and it was funny. Right. So to see our guy that was saying I'm probably going to be in retirement age in one or two years was still very engaging to that. And telling people, even young people in the room, you know, around, uh, his successes and how he was also optimistic for the future of the new generation of workers on that, um, I think

Speaker B: it's incredibly interesting to see. Right, so it's more a philosophical issue rather than a technical issue now that. Well, uh, previously when you look at software, for example, it was like a lot of training when it comes to how to operate the software. However, with, um, AI, it's a lot of, well, just conversation. Right. So you just treat it like a colleague or like a coworker. Yeah.

Speaker C: The challenge with AI at the moment for me is, uh, uh, we have a lot of people using it, uh, and there is always this feeling that it is not telling you the right thing. You really need to be careful around not, uh, taking the first answer and really learning how to prompt, how to do the prompting and the question basically, because the first answer is not always the right one. Uh, so I think that yes, there is this incredible development on some fraud is much lower than you expected. So it took me like last week I, uh, was looking for some uh, uh, EBITDA data for my company. And uh, I knew that this data was in a presentation. So I was telling you need to look in this presentation and tell me the last five years of our growth. Ah. And it took me about, uh, I would say 25 to 30 questions to really get the right answer. Uh, and almost like instructing and say, go and look at this data. Go and look at that and look at this and m. So it is growing and hopefully next time I ask it's not going to take me 30 questions but just one. Uh, but uh, there's still a lot of learning. We need to teach this machine how to work.

Speaker B: Indeed. Mauro, I have one last question for you. Um, which is kind um of a tradition here at age of visionaries. Um, what are your favorite interview questions?

Speaker C: So I have two. Um, um, one is around the biggest um, in success or failure of somebody. Um, and what they have learned from this. Uh, and this interview question tells me, uh, first of all, if people are uh, reflecting on uh, what didn't go well in that job, uh, and what they've learned. So there are a lot of people that say well I think that there's never been anything unsuccessful, uh, which tells me, you know, even if you've been the most, you know, the best person ever, you know, at least one thing went wrong in your, in your career or in your life or in your. Or in your work. Uh, and the second question is around uh, you know, and this is true to managers, I do this question to manager which is this is what type of people I tend to interview these days is around if I were asking your people about you, uh, what they will tell me, uh, about yourself as a leader. Uh, and I ask the positive and the negative. And again I like this question because uh, it tells me whether these people do this, ask their people or never or don't care and how much specific and you know the best answer to this question for me is somebody that can tell me and can give me specific example of why they can tell me either because they do this normally as part of their development performance cycle. 360, whatever the answer. So what is plus and minuses in their, in their leadership styles and also what they have done to correct or to improve further. Um, so you know, there is a variety of uh, ah, level of positive or not so positive answer to this question that you can. So it's almost not so important on the second question if they tell me, you know, I uh, can be a more uh, I don't know, vision visionary leader. Just to stay on the topic of this, um, is not so important to me. What they answer is important for me. The process through which they determine that that's the case. If their people, if their team is aware of this and what they are doing, if they want to work on that.

Speaker B: Amazing. Sorry. Amazing. Mauro, thank you so much for um, a great conversation I really liked it. Thank you so much. Indeed.

Speaker C: Thank you. It's been great to be here. Thanks a lot.

Speaker B: And thanks to you all for listening in and hear next time.