Rethinking Careers When No One Leaves

Welcome to HR Disrupted with me, Lucy Adams. Each episode will explore innovative approaches for leaders and HR professionals and challenge the status quo with inspiring but practical people strategies. So if you're looking for fresh ideas, tips, and our take on the latest HR trends, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. So when we talk about careers today, it's clear that the old rules don't apply anymore. You know, the idea of a straightforward career ladder where you joined an organization, you move steadily upwards, you eventually reach the top. You know, this kind of feels increasingly out of step with reality. Organizations are flatter, roles are changing faster, and the skills that people need are constantly evolving. And at the same time, many employees are actually staying longer, whether that's because they value stability or simply because there's just fewer obvious opportunities elsewhere. So we've kind of got this interesting tension. You know, people still want growth, development, and a sense of progression, but organizations can't always offer that in the traditional sense. And that raises some big questions for hr. How do we help people build meaningful careers when upward movement is limited? How honest should we be about what's possible and what isn't? And what does our responsibility look like when it comes to developing people, not just for our organization, but for the wider world of work? So to explore these challenges and possible solutions, I am delighted to welcome Eva Merciano, who is the Director General, Human Resources at the European Central bank, or ecb, as it's known. Welcome, Eva. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you. So, Eva, tell me and listeners who might not know, what is it that the ECB actually does? Well, the European Central bank is a public institution, international financial institution. We do on the one side, have as a mission to preserve price stability and actually inflation at 2%, and on the other hand is about safeguarding the health of banks and the financial system overall in Europe. And this is really very inspiring for staff of the ECB and is inspiring also to myself. So let's talk a little bit about the context of ECB as an employer, because in many ways, you've got what a lot of organizations would envy, right? You've got highly skilled people, small, strong motivation, a real sense of public purpose, and you're not struggling to attract or retain people in the traditional sense, are you? So tell us about the career challenges. And you kind of hinted at it a little while ago, but let's just talk about the kind of key challenges in terms of career that you face at or people face at ECB Because I don't think it's. I don't think they're unusual challenges. I think many of our listeners were. They'll resonate with them. So the key, the challenges that we have are mostly in the domain of how people develop professionally within the institution. And in a way, the opportunities for vertical growth are by now pretty limited because the organization is not growing. And we also do not have a context in which people leave the institution. We have long term contracts mostly and people stay typically until they retire, which is saying that they really enjoy the work they do, the support they get. But of course, in the context as I just described, it's difficult for everybody to achieve their aspirations in terms of career development in the classic sense of vertical growth. And of course, after a while, after years of staying sometimes in the same job, this becomes frustrating potentially. It also affects motivation and people would like to understand how they can develop themselves. In our discussions with staff, it's true that some of them, for some of them is really about how they can grow vertically, but for many it's really about how can they reset and get a new spark in a new job and how can they feel again motivated by learning something new. And that in a way gives us a bit of the basis to understand the frustration that they may have regarding their career development. And this happens as well in a context at the moment in which the skills for some of the jobs that we have are changing, or we expect them to change even more so with new technologies, with AI. So there is an understanding that we also have to learn and develop new skills within the institution. So for us, the challenge is about finding new forms and ways to provide these development opportunities for staff and also change the understanding that professional development is not about growing vertically, but it's really about accumulating experiences in different parts of the institution in different setups that make you grow as a professional, as a leader, that make you be relevant for the institution as well and stay relevant for the institution. And that make you employable if you. Exactly. In other jobs within or outside. Absolutely, yeah. I think, you know, it resonates so strongly with me, as you know, because we talked about it, you know, I was HR director at the BBC in my sort of former corporate life in frontline HR roles. And similarly, you know, you had that strong sense of purpose. People, you know, really, they weren't working there for the money because we paid significantly below what they could expect to receive in a commercial broadcaster or a commercial media organization like say Netflix or Sky or so they were Working for lower salaries. But what was this overwhelming sense of pride that they had in working for the BBC? And I always used to feel that in some ways that was both both a blessing but also a, a, a, a slight burden in that for them. It wasn't a case of seeing other broadcasters or other media organizations as a natur career path for them. It felt too alien for them. And so they became increasingly reliant on the BBC for, for their future work. And of course that job for life was no longer a given. And to stay relevant, just as you described then, there were a whole range of new skills that we were expecting them to, to embrace. Some of, some of the people absolutely embraced them. Others found them more difficult because they felt it was pot diluting their area of particular expertise. So how are you at the ECB going about providing development for people in an organization where opportunities are more limited? You know, how, how are you offering those opportunities, those development opportunities? Okay, so we have of course always built on, let's say providing learning, you know, training in the bigger search, learning on skills that is always there for our staff. And the dossier of skills that we have covered has been changing over time now, something we have invested on changing in the last probably one year, even more if we look in the past. But we are now giving a big push is to make our staff more mobile. Because we really see that when people move and they genuinely move to a completely different role, they really get motivated, they truly learn something different and they see their career path, if you want to call it like that, through different eyes. Yeah. This is also about getting different habits of work, different perspectives. And of course to us as an institution, it makes us more resilient because it builds the muscle of flexibility of our people. If we experience a crisis and we have to react quickly and redeploy stuff, it comes easier if we have trained that muscle. Mobility is something we have for long tried to integrate much more into how people view their careers. We've not always been super successful, let's put it like that, but we don't give up. Yeah. And the reason maybe as well that we come from a tradition of recruiting people for a particular job and not so much from the beginning with the expectations that you can have a generic profile and we really want that you are moving after a while. So we have maybe not been super good at setting those expectations. And in the recruitment process we maybe have not tested that versatility and adaptability sufficiently. That is something we going forward we want to do differently. But mobility is Something that was valued in the past. We did not necessarily have an associated guidance to it, but last year we issued a new policy on mobility, which we call the 358, basically. Talk to us about that. Yeah. So that is really clear guidance to staff that we believe you need to be at least three years on the same position and the same job to really learn the skills or the knowledge that you have with that job to anchor it. After three years you can start thinking about how to, you know, what is your next job, the next type of role you want to do, and build the skills to get it to go there. And after five years you can move. And if you don't manage after five years, then after eight, basically there's a more structured interaction with your management and with HR about that mobility and how to make it happen. Because sometimes people on their own may find some bottlenecks, some limitations, and then is where we as institutions need to come in and unlock that for them. I think that's really, really impressive and also very brave, actually, because in an organization like ecb, where you've got a lot of long tenure, where people are incredibly proud of their niche role that they're doing, then being told that actually the expectation is after five years we're going to expect you to move, that's quite a massive change, isn't it? I tried to introduce something similar at the BBC and I have to say I was singly unsuccessful around doing that. You know, if you go in and you want to be the head of BBC Sport, for example, then that's what you want to do. You don't necessarily want to go and do anything else. So how is that 3, 5, 8 concept gone down? Well, I mean, it was. The communication effort that we did last year was. It was very interesting to observe how the organization reacted to that. Initially there were questions about, but are you going to force me to move? Yeah, and we had to be very clear that we were not going to force anybody. But we were very clear about our guidance because we wanted to actually enable people rather than force people. And we were very mindful that this requires a shift in the. I mean, they say culture shift. Yes. A shift in the understanding of your own career and a shift in how people find themselves comfortable in doing something completely new. Because, of course, when you've been many years in the same job, maybe you want something different, but the comfort that you have for being in the position that you are for several years is also very attractive. You know, you know, your network in that role. You have the knowledge so there's less effort maybe that you have to put while at the same. There's loads of research around this, you know, that says the longer people are in role, the more senior they are, the less curious they are. And I think in part it's because you've got that status. Do you actually need to go out and seek new opportunities as you rightly described? People feel very confident and capable and it's a good place, It's a comfortable place, isn't it? That. But if we're not encouraging people to put themselves into a situation where it's new, it's challenging, it's not as comfortable, then as you say, we're not building the resilient organizations. And we're also, I don't think being fair to our people as either because they're, they're find. They're potentially finding themselves at risk in the future because they haven't done the broader roles. They haven't proved that they've continued to develop and learn which other organizations would be looking for. We have seen that. I mean we were exchanging with, with our, with our colleagues about that and we identified that they needed some safety net before thinking of where they could go. So we have last year also created, and that is actually pretty successful. We have created the possibility for people to ask for job shadowing or we have also created the possibility for business areas here in the bank to advertise projects that somebody could join in for a certain amount of time for maybe a couple of months. And both the job shadowings and working in projects, they take away a bit this fear of the unknown. Where am I going to go? Because you can go job shadowing or have a project in areas where maybe you could think of moving to. And then you really see the people, you really see how work is really there and you get a sense, okay, this is something I could go to. And our whole effort so far has been on making it easy for people to really jump into the mobility which is what we ultimately see as our goal. I really like the offering people the opportunity to work on projects without having to give up their substantive role without having to make the move. I think that, you know, most organizations have secondments or the ability to move for a period of time, but actually just to dip your toe in the water, just to test it out, just to work maybe for a few hours a week on a particular project that's outside of your team. I think that's something we're seeing more and more of and I think it's a really effective way of doing it, as well as the shadowing. I wouldn't mind just moving it on a little bit and talking about how have you thought about working with your people to help them understand how the nature of careers have changed? Because if you've only been in the one organization for 20, 30 years and you've never known anything different, what work have you done to at least educate people that maybe the old way of doing things is not going to be around forever, that they're going to have to potentially change their outlook and their attitude towards the way in which they think about their careers? Have you done kind of sessions where you've tried to help people understand how it's changed? I think we are in the middle of it. Yeah. This is really not something that you just fix like that. We are doing a lot of, as you call it, sessions with staff to explain, to make them understand, to really honestly saying, okay, these are. This is the environment within which we are. And therefore these are the possibilities that you have, you know, and we are really at the moment seeing mobility as one of the main channels for you to experience something new. Yeah. And this is what you can try. And I think we are also clear and they people, our people see it that the environment is one in which if the organization does not grow, if our people do not leave the institution, there is not so much of a space to create so many promotion opportunities, as we call it vertical career. But I think they are engaging now in these conversations more and more. They are asking for clarity and open communication. I think what they want is not to be entertained with ideas that, you know, it will happen somehow. And, you know, it's just that this time it wasn't for you all those things. I think it's more about having conversations about with the people on their careers. This is also something we are hearing from our staff survey that they find it. The coaching and the engagement of managers directly with staff on their career is already having a positive impact on how people feel about their professional development and these conversations? Yeah, yeah, let's talk about these conversations because I think it's as you say, employees are asking for more career clarity where perhaps that clarity isn't available. They want more guidance and potentially they're looking for more honesty as well. They might not necessarily be happy when they get that honesty, but they're saying that they want that. But it does mean that leaders are having to be perhaps a bit braver about the conversations that they're having with people. How are you helping leaders and managers to have these more candidates honest conversations. Yeah, maybe before answering my own reflection from my own experience is that it can be difficult to face a staff member that really wants something that, you know, it's very difficult that maybe it happens. But not having that conversation makes it even more difficult for the person that has been my own experience with my own people and you know, we call it courageous conversations, but at the end of the day it's really, it's, I don't know, it takes courage because probably in many cases we would like to give people what they want. But if that's not possible, what they want is really to be told, you know, to be helped somewhat to see what they could do and what maybe it's out of reach. What we are trying to, I mean we are trying to engage our, our managers and support, support them from HR as well through our business partners to have conversations with the staff about their career. And what we want to do more of is to really provide guidance on how to structure those conversations and really go out of the role of I am here to tell you what to do and more going into, okay, what do you want to achieve? And that is what I can do, that is what I cannot do. But what I can do is this. And the rest I will support you. But I cannot guarantee and really have these conversations where it is, of course, the staff member, the colleague taking ownership for their career, but the manager nevertheless being there and supporting, either coaching or really just guiding through the conversation. And I think that's important, that's important for people to take their decisions about what they go for. I totally agree with you. And we're definitely seeing a shift in the more progressive organizations now where it's no longer purely the manager's responsibility to spoon feed people with here's the next opportunity or here's the next training and development for you, but ultimately for employees to take an interest in, to research and to come to those conversations with their own ideas about how they can develop. But I'm really interested in what you're saying as well about how a lot of leaders and managers, it's not that they don't necessarily want to have the conversations, but they feel uncomfortable not being able to offer that promotion and so helping them to understand that it's about being honest and that's the kind thing to do, even if it isn't what the individual necessarily needs to hear. It's not about, you know, we're not going to look after you forever, but we'll be honest with you. We'll do what we can to help you stay relevant and you. So even if you're, you know, it's not about making you. Giving you a job here for life. It is about ensuring that you are very employable. And I think that's the. The kindest thing that we can do is to be honest and help people stay relevant. And. And I think it's also about identifying what. Is what relevant for every person. It looks like it may be different from one person to another because of their own interest. Exactly. Or their own perspective. And some may want to invest more than others at the end of the day, but helping them to establish that path for them and what is the next milestone gives staff also a sense of control of their own, you know, career path, which I think it's very liberating to have control of your own destiny in that respect. As opposed to wait for something to happen. Yeah, I always find that a terrible place to be. And I think what we're seeing is AI can be really helpful here, actually using ChatGPT or having a kind of talent marketplace. It really helps employees to own that for themselves. When you talk about talent marketplace, I find this a very. Yeah, very important aspect because. And something we've worked as well on in our institution because I believe that for an organization, any organization, ours as well, manage the talent is very important to know what you have, what talent you have. And that is not trivial. I think sometimes we don't know how. How much our people are able to do things, the skills that they have and the curiosity that they bring to work and what else they would like to do. And in the ecb, it was not easy so far and still we're struggling there to really see what are the skills of everybody in the house at every point in time. Because people enter the institution and at that point in time they fit in their experience, their skills. But this is not really maintained over the years. What we did actually last year. Year as well, is to actually to try and create. And we are there still working on that. A talent marketplace, we call it a career portal. Where people can update their profiles. Yes. Like an internal LinkedIn type of thing. And profile, meaning their skills, their experience. And people can find your skills through that. They can find you through the. Through the career portal. And actually that information is also used in order for you to find a swap partner within the institution. So the way we foster mobility is two ways by this portal because people there can autonomously find a swap partner or this year, something we want to roll out is facilitated mobility sessions with managers where based on the preferences of people, they make matches for the people. So we have a staff led but also a manager led type of process or channel to generate mobility. But the jury is still out there. Yeah, it's always a work in progress, isn't it, Eva? It's always a work in progress, Ava. Well, that's all we've got time for today, but thank you so much for coming on the POD and sharing your experiences and your thoughts and good luck with it all. So just to mention that if listeners want to find out how to help employees to own their careers, career how to help managers and leaders have better career conversations amongst a whole range of other resources, then you can head to disruptivehr.com and have a look at the club there. The club resources that we've got for you. Lots of other insights and other development that might be useful for you. That's it for today. Ava, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Thank you for the invitation, Wesley. Really a pleasure to have this conversation with you. Thank you.