How (& why) to build a second business with Laura Butler-Madden, GROVE England

Speaker A: Laura Butler Madden is an award winning interior designer with 14 years of expertise restoring and transforming period properties. She hasn't left her design career, but she simply added a second one to it. For anyone starting a business, this may feel like a lot given how many hats you're already wearing. So I was really keen to chat to her about why she decided to move into a whole new sector and start a whole new business. So keep listening to hear her practical guide on how to start making your second business after you've already started your first. Hi, Laura, thank you for coming on how to start up today. Before we get into looking at how you start a second business, I'd love it if you could give a bit of background as to who you are.

Speaker B: Okay, so my name is Laura Butler Madden and I worked for many years with my husband renovating properties. Just over 15 years. We used to renovate and then flip them on. And then as life progressed and we had a daughter, we shifted and we ended up keeping a portfolio. The plan was to sort of have a luxury high end holiday rental portfolio that we would rent out and then every couple of years we would probably sell one and do something else to keep our kind of creative juices going. And the timing of that all sadly kind of hit with the pandemic, where we finally had four properties ready booked out for the summer of 2020. And then the pandemic hit and of course lockdown happened. And so it was a really interesting moment. We've been building towards that perhaps for about 10 years really. And it was hugely exciting to see a positive spreadsheet because in renovating it's really hard kind of, you spend a lot, you have to take a deep breath and be really brave and then you just, you know, hope. And we were very lucky that every time we did do really well, in the end it comes back in, but then it goes straight back into another property. So it wasn't really great for cash flow and life. So the idea was, having had Lily, we were going to have these properties that would bring in an income alongside gently renovating one every so often. Anyway, long story short, pandemic hit, we were then struggling, stuck with, I think five mortgages. We had home as well. We were renovating a house we were renting with friends, so we didn't qualify for any of the government support. So, long story short, we were like, great, our business has been wiped out. Here we are, um, we need to do something different now. I was very lucky that I'd always had people inquiring about Whether I would do interior design for them. And that wasn't something I'd ever done before, but that was the time I sort of decided to take that leap. So throughout the pandemic we did that. And then I think about three and a half years we had two lovely clients with two houses each. It was an absolute joy. They were the most gorgeous people. The properties were like the dream properties. By the end of that, I knew that wasn't for me and it wasn't my future. It was the stress, as you know from doing your own renovation of that, because we were renovating as well. So we were managing. We weren't just doing pretty designs and sort of installing that. It was the whole shebang, basically managing it all. And that stress, when you are then the in between person and costs mount and there's so much out, uh, of your control, just felt really overwhelming. And by the end, even though we were really happy with the result, the clients were thrilled. I was like, my nerves are in touches. This is not the next 20 years for me.

Speaker A: Well, it's just such a lesson, isn't it, if, like, just because you can do it doesn't mean you should do it. And I had that friends like, oh, you should be doing big luxury brands because that's your past and your background is like, but I don't want to. I could, but I don't want to. And it's actually gut feeling of, no, no, no, no.

Speaker B: I knew in my gut and I just felt really it was a brave move because we'd done really well, like financially things were looking great. And actually that in itself, I've not really stopped to pause and think about that until now. You know, we should be really proud that we pivoted in that wave and during a really difficult time and made a success of it. But in my heart I just knew that I wouldn't be well and a good mother and a good person to be around if the pressure of that level of management. I mean, they were big million pound builds and things and it was too much. So I knew my heart that we needed to change and I took a little bit of time out. I remember at the time thinking I might want to paint, which is actually absurd because I can't paint at all. But I think that was where my mind had gone from this sort of busy chaos, madness, huge pressure, so many things out of my control that I was having to then sort of be the sort of deliverer of the bad news to like just sitting quietly in a room painting, but actually that translated quite quickly into Grove England. And it was spending time in the garden one day. And I just always love nature. I've always included a lot of it in my designs. I've always loved the seasons. I'm very nostalgic. There was a lot of that kind of going on in the background. And I also had felt when we'd had the holiday let's. That there was a real gap for something made with natural ingredients, but really elevated and luxurious. I found not. There's some wonderful brands, but they just. I wanted something with fine fragrance. The sort of the middle, the base, the top notes. I wanted something. Something that looks Chanel or Byredo in its packaging, but that was natural. And so I had that in the back of my mind. And then one day I was in the garden and I just thought, actually, I need to do something that links me even more to nature. Uh, and that's creative. And it was. I then took myself off into this room for about a year and a half and really did quietly create with some consultants and different people. The brand, the idea, the first sort of collection. It all happened in the way that I'd wanted to paint but couldn't. But I took myself off quietly and had a really nice creative focus that was quite small and narrow and not rooms and knobs and switches and sockets. It was just lovely, actually.

Speaker A: And, um. So when did you launch Grove England?

Speaker B: So we launched in October 2024, and I think I've been developing it for about 18 months prior to that.

Speaker A: That's incredible because we're now June 2026 and you've just opened your first flagship store in Cotswolds. Congratulations.

Speaker B: Thank you so much.

Speaker A: Is a quick timeline. So what were the first alarm bells that were ringing in your ears of saying, I could do this, but I don't want to do this? And what gave you the courage to step away?

Speaker B: I think it's just experience in life. I think I've been through kind of various changes in career. My time was in. I was a journalist first and then in pr, and then I made the move into property. So I knew that could happen. And that can be a really positive experience and always, like, just add another chapter of your life. I also just need to trust my guard. And my gut was telling me really strongly. Even though financially was probably the best shape we'd been in for a while, I just felt that I was, for the first time running my own business. I was working for our holidays and our weekends, which I hadn't had before. So, like, when you're employed by somebody else and you think, I've got the big salary, but we can go to Bahamas for a week, it was that I was sort of. It just in my heart. But this isn't what Patrick and I have worked really hard to create. We wanted to create something that brought joy every day. And obviously that's a really fortunate position to be in, but to be with Lily, to be totally our own bosses. And I think a lot of that had gone. And so in my heart I knew I had to change. And so I just. It was a bold move. But I also, I'm very intuitive and I had a really strong gut feeling that it was right. And then various things happened along the way that confirmed that there was some really serendipitous moments that, that really showed me I was on the right path.

Speaker A: It's interesting you say that gut feeling. I think a lot of people, when they become self employed, they're laser focused on what they're doing and they're a true believer. And if you don't believe in your business, no one else is going to. But how did you into that world of fragrance? Because it's a little bit of a departure from interiors and renovated flipping properties. And I can, I completely understand where you're coming from because I'm just about to receive three loos that, uh, are coming on a palette and I have no idea what I'm going to do with them. So the stress of managing all of that, creating a brand from scratch is no mean feat either. But I, I should rephrase that question. What about Grove England and owning your own fragrance brand gives you more joy than property management and managing renovations.

Speaker B: I think it was that craving for something calm. And like you say, building a brand is not necessarily calm, but there was a moment where I got to be incredibly creative and search inside me for what it was that I really wanted to do and, um, what brought me joy. And then at the same time I identified there was a gap in the market for what we wanted to create. And I think the joy has been that it's. There's much more freedom. I feel truly creative again. And I think when moving from renovating for ourselves into working on client work, the creativity really does diminish because so much of client work has to be explained and showed and presented. So maybe 10% of my time was the sort of, how am I going to design this room? What colors, what feel, getting out and about getting inspiration. The rest was online, drawing out things or feeding. I don't do cad myself. So feeding into somebody to draw that detail after detail of every room, it just. The creativity was very small and it's basically a very intensely advocate job. And I think people don't realize that when they look at design from the outside in, but it's actually a very. You have to almost have more of an architect's mind, I think, to be an interior designer. Whereas Patrick and I had always loved properties and I'm a bit of a sort of romantic, I guess, like, I would fall in love with the building and the history and we'd see this potential and feel really sad that no one had done anything beautiful with it. And we'd feel emotionally connected to the house whilst we'd bring it back to life with our own team of builders. He knew us so well. We didn't have to draw everything out. We could sketch things on a piece of paper and hold things up to the wall. And so for me, when I became attached to a computer all the time, filling out documents for builders and things, I just thought, no. And Grove has brought me back to that, really. I feel more creative than I ever have. And actually I didn't realize how. I guess it's like a whole new skill I didn't realize I had with this perfumery and working with a wonderful master perfumer. And we have these vis. And actually at the beginning, I obviously felt total imposter syndrome, as you do with anything, I think, but particularly with this. And I felt more comfortable in bath and body. So we were going to just launch with that and a candle. And as we progressed with everything, the scent was so lovely of anemone. Lots of people had started, said, you must do an eau de parfum. And I was like, well, no, I can't. I can't do fragrance. I've got to link it to the home. I'm an interior designer. People won't get that. And it was only about six weeks before launch that finally we just said, no, we have to do an eau de parfum. And we added that in. And then it's so interesting because obviously, like, uh, with all these things, it's now the thing, the purchase point for most people. People love. I mean, we, you know, all the products are wonderful and sell, but the fragrance now is the main core of the business, which is. Yeah, it was quite last minute, as

Speaker A: all good things are. You look back and go, how do I was it expression? Experience is what you get after you've needed it and you're like, of course it's now working. But talk to me about the fragrances themselves, because you have quite an interesting take on the flowers you've used as inspiration.

Speaker B: When I started working on the plan and wanted to do something with naturals and fragrance, I only want to work with one. And the industries were very closed, so I didn't know who he was. I just knew that I wanted to work with the man who had created Cow Shed originally for Soho House, because that was genius at the time. Now I know it's evolved and it's been sold and it's changed, but it was so inherently linked to nature. And so, anyway, long story short, one day I'd done my business plan and I had booked on a perfumery course, and there was lots of things happening in the background. And then an old friend I hadn't seen for a long time, maybe five or six years, messaged me out of the blue and just said, look, we've moved house. We're now in Somerset. You've got to meet our neighbor. He'd love you. You'd love him. And he set up cowshed for the Soho House. And I was like, that is so weird. I haven't said anything to obviously, his friend. Oh, I said, that's so weird, because I really need to find him. So, thank you. And then a phone call the next day, and he absolutely loved the idea, and we just gelled beautifully. So, basically, then I spoke to him and I said, look, I have this idea. It might be really silly to. To create scents for flowers that don't have them, but the other part is that those flowers, to me, represent a very seasonal moment, a memory, a kind of something that you can like. I wanted to create a mood around fragrance, I guess, a feeling, and that could be visual and emotionally linked to seasonal memories. And so anemone was the first one, and he thought it was a great idea. He was. I think it's amazing we've got so much potential because there are so many flowers that are beautiful, that don't have. It's not that they're totally scentless. Most m. Some of them are. Some of them. But they're certainly not celebrated for a known fragrance. And so we. He loved the idea, and we tested it through at length. And then. Yeah. Then a few months later, I went down to start work with him on the first two we did together. One of them hasn't come out yet, actually. We did it back to front. I had anemone one that's coming next May. And then I went back and we did Snowdrop and another one, which is amazing for next year, but he totally got it. And I think there is a real uniqueness in that because the names are unusual and it perhaps it just is a bit different too.

Speaker A: But it's that question if you hear Snowdrop and go, I love snowdrops, but I don't know what they smell like. And it's so simple as well. And I think that's the beauty of fragrance. When you're trying to market fragrance brand in magazines and podcasts and social media

Speaker B: content, you can't smell it online challenge of that. No, I know. And that's why, I mean, always from the start, our, uh, visuals were going to be key to the brand. And I also felt that in the marketplace that was lacking. And, and I understand why, because I'm very lucky. I'm married to an incredibly talented photographer. But actually, to capture nature, uh, you know, you've got to be on the spot, you've got to be up at door and you've got to be, you know, there at the late night. And if you're a brand saying to a photographer, I want you to capture is this. It's just not that straightforward. So a lot of brands will just use picture in a nice bottle or someone spritzing it, and they don't really bring nature in. But we always wanted to have that as rooted in nature. And Ruth and Patrick's photography and my Instagram had always been that it had been the house looking lovely and calm and then the gardens and the scenes and the local kind of beautiful landscapes and things. So that was always going to be a massive part for us of how we would hopefully convey the scent through the images. And so anemone, for example, we based it on the Japanese anemones, really, and the auto. The last flowers. Everything else is dying back and they're just this beautiful, very delicate white top, but then actually at the bottom they're really quite earthy and the leaves are not a beauty. They're very hardy. And so the fragrance itself is exactly that. It's got this beautiful floral top, but then it has got a lovely sort of quite a green middle and a very earthy base with Ladan and M cedarwood. And, uh, when people smell it, they. You see them. Now we've got the shop, I think, because it's got a floral name, maybe sometimes think people think it might be sweet floral and they sound like, oh, wow. No, it's really complex and interesting and, and interestingly, actually, the shop's been amazing because men buy Both. And that was something we'd hoped. But you can't again convey really online that it would be unisex because until you've really had chance for people to test it themselves. But.

Speaker A: And going. Given that you had a bank of work experience. And I admire people who start businesses at 20 and 22 and go into it with no work experience. I'm grateful for the experience I had before I started my business because I had a general confidence in certain areas. Obviously, the 99 other hats that I had to learn how to wear, I learned along the way. But I knew I was strong in communications and marketing.

Speaker B: For you.

Speaker A: Did you do an exercise where you looked at what transferable skills you might have, or you just. I know I have to do this. I'm just going to work it out as I go.

Speaker B: Uh, it definitely came from more of a place of passion and I think. But then obviously I do love a spreadsheet. So quite quickly that came in, I really do. I get very excited about, uh, this so important.

Speaker A: All of my creative friends. I know I just want to do this creative thing in the corner and I'm going to not worry about the cash flow. Like, you're not going to have a business. You need to love your spreadsheets.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I love them. And I do. And it really. When I first discovered them when I was in property development, it was like a joy. I was like, oh, my God. I forgot that I loved maths at school because I was always slightly more pushed in the English and that way. And anyway, so I love a spreadsheet, but I also love to be creative, but I couldn't do one without the other. I really. And which is why this is perfect for me.

Speaker A: So.

Speaker B: Yeah, I feel like I didn't sit down and do those things. I did it. I did do a business plan of sorts. Very loose, though, just. And I really researched the market and. And then just went with it and just believed.

Speaker A: Just.

Speaker B: I just had a really strong gut instinct that was what I was meant to do and that hopefully it would therefore work. I don't really let myself have doubt if that makes sense.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, I love that because I think what everyone told me is like, as long as you're completely deluded that what you're doing is what the market needs, but you've done your market research and you've got a gut feeling that you're going to go and go and go a bit further. Uh, you'll be absolutely fine. It's like, this sounds very different from when I Worked at Chanel and it was all very ordered and big budgets and very process driven and suddenly you're out on your own at the coal face. Be like, I'm just going to make this up.

Speaker B: No, I know, and I feel the same. When I was at the BBC in the start of my career, everything was so structured and you know, when we took a meeting about a meeting about a meeting and oh God, even at a young age, I just knew that for me wasn't how I worked best. I was. I've always been a little bit impatient and just want to get on with things and I think that I find extra processes quite frustrating. So working with myself is amazing. So I can control that and decide what's necessary and I think you can just. Yeah, as long as you've got your basics and spreadsheets. Things I do. And it's really useful now. I find having ChatGPT to ask things off.

Speaker A: We're taking a quick 30 second break from this episode to ask, are, uh, you thinking of starting your own podcast? If so, this is great news because we run a course that will train you how to produce your own podcast yourself. This course is for people who do not want to outsource and pay someone

Speaker B: else to do it.

Speaker A: You want to learn how to do it yourself. We teach you everything that you need to do to get up and running with your own podcast show and so much more. Just DM us@helloallowfieldmason, uh, to book your spot,

Speaker B: you know, in terms of like, strategy or. But otherwise you can work without a big team now and you don't need to have, you know, so much m structure in place, I think, and obviously a big, big company you do, but running something smaller.

Speaker A: It's. I think the luxury of being in a small business is you can see how all the previous big businesses you work for got it wrong in a way because you see the meeting about meeting, my God, it's just giving me chills because you're in there going, this is such a waste of everybody's time. And they're into office politics. And before COVID when we're in every day of the week, 48 weeks of the year. And I was trying to explain this to my team that, by the way, guys, I commuted five days a week, every week, and they're like, what? No. Working from home was like, no, this is a whole new world now we have freedom to work flexibly. But yet that the juggernaut of a big brand where the processes have been set by probably 3cmos ago and never been questioned. But when you start your own business, you can get. That's not working. Let's stop at move. It's change and it's nice to have that liberation. But I also. The flip side of that is I miss having a boss to go, well done. That's a good job. You have to do that for yourself.

Speaker B: Yes. And sometimes, definitely, I do agree with you. There are times where I know my weaknesses probably are in managing people, for example, and that's just because I haven't really had to do it. And in a bigger company, that's all done for you, isn't it? And so I've always been able to focus on my. What I'm up to and what I'm doing when it comes to other people. I know I perhaps don't have the patience to take the time sometimes to teach. I'm learning, you know, anything. We all are. But yeah, it is you, right? You are in it on your own and it's a small company. Well, on that.

Speaker A: How do you motivate yourself given you've had different guises? How do you keep pulling your socks up and keep going? Because every. This is the other thing people think, oh, self employed. You're so lucky. I'm like, there is no luck involved in this at all.

Speaker B: It's really hard. And I think you're right. Yeah, people don't see the hard work. And I think resilience is a word that I always would come back to. It's gosh. For me, the creative part of building the brand was amazing. I loved it. Like I said, I was in quietly, in here. It was all very calm and beautiful. And then we launched. And I think naively I'd thought, oh, the hard work is done. Uh, and obviously I just remember so vividly the week after launch where I was like, okay, no one knows about this brand except for kind of me and a few people who work with me. I can share it on Instagram, but that's limiting. So I'm not someone who's. I hadn't shared the journey with my followers because I'm quite private. I knew it was quite a jump from what they were expecting from me, from interiors, so I didn't really know. And so suddenly there was this moment where I went, oh, wow, it's quite overwhelming. I've got to, uh, I've got to get this out there. And we had a PR team helping a little bit with launch and things like, uh, that. But I think the resilience needed to get through that first six months to eight months was huge. Every day, wintery, miserable January day, and you're working away and the investment is big still. And slowly orders start to pick up. Uh, there was. Yeah, there were days where it was really hard. And I think you just have to. I can't really say what you do to keep going. You just have to keep going. You just have to keep going. Recognize a bad day and just rule it off. And next day wake up feeling excited again. And I think that's what I love about running my own business, is that you never quite know what the day is going to hold. Some days can be awful, but then there might just suddenly be something that lands in your inbox really unexpectedly that's very exciting or has huge potential or

Speaker A: it's that, uh, thing. I think a lot of people just assume that every day is amazing and you can still have a bad day in your job that you've made up for yourself, which is. I remember my first one was like, oh, this is still a job. This is a great job. And I love it most of the time. But you're still going to have a bad day, and that's hard because you don't have that sort of juggernaut around you to support you. And.

Speaker B: No.

Speaker A: And you can't hide. It's on feeling.

Speaker B: Yeah. And if you're feeling sensitive and hormones or whatever, if you have. And the knocks feel really painful and then the highs are really high. But certainly at the beginning of a new brand, there's many more lows than highs. But as you. Yeah, you've just got to keep going. I've always been very. I'm. I'm a real grafter and I'm resilient. I think.

Speaker A: Yes, you must be. Because a lot of people say as long as you're okay with the weight and responsibility and resilience, I was like, oh, uh, I'm the roller coaster. Those are the three R's everyone talks about.

Speaker B: But is. Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, do you feel like you've built resilience over the years or you're born with it or. I should ask it a different way? If somebody's listening and they're worried, they don't have the resilience, what would you advise them to do? To go and get some.

Speaker B: It is hard. I don't know if I was born with it or not. It's hard to know. I think you definitely gain it through experience in life. But I also. I think perhaps it is partly nature. I think some people are just. I think Perhaps it goes hand in hand with what we were talking about. Feeling a bit frustrated in those meetings and feeling like this is boring and this is taking too long and having a bit of a drive, maybe that also has resilience. LinkedIn, because you know that you wouldn't be happy doing the other alternative, which is totally for another brand or someone else, and being able to have the freedom to not feel pressure, but equally lose your freedom in other ways. And I think, for me, I think freedom has always been a big driver, uh, in how I wanted to live my life. And that did come from loss in my youth. I lost friends when I was very young. I've had different things and I think you realize that you only have. I was very lucky in that sense. Awful thing to happen. But to be so young and to see that you have one life and it can be taken away. I think for me, that gave me a lot of drive and resilience, potentially, and other things happening along the way. I've always just, yeah. Wanted to make the most of every day and not be somewhere when you're sitting in a job you don't love. And in the old days, where you had to get training every single day. The drudgery, I think, in high heels. Yes, the heels. I remember being at events and having to work really late and then having to get up seven because I had to speak to journalists or whatever, and just utterly exhausted, but also on a salary that really was just totally unacceptable. But I was expected to be grateful for the opportunity because it was such a glamorous job. And I look back on all that and I just knew in my heart in my early 20s, that wasn't how I wanted to live my life.

Speaker A: Is the assumption that you'll just keep doing it and who are you to question it? And I think that's the liberation I had when I was made redundant because I had no choice. I was like, I've got to start my own business. I could have applied for other jobs, but it's Covid. I just thought I wouldn't find one. So I'm quite grateful for the push because there's no way I was such a people pleaser. I was like, well, I'll just work really hard for someone else and I'll try and get promoted. And if people are happy with my work, that's fine. And in PR and cons, you're a people pleaser anyway. But it was the relentlessness of it.

Speaker B: It's exhausting.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. But getting old as well, you do realize what matters in life. And m. You do have loss in life and you think actually it's got to be bigger than just seizing a CFO that doesn't respect what you do.

Speaker B: That thing. I remember being so exhausted, like you said, say, and just. But working so hard. Such a people pleaser. Uh, and I was in PR at that point and I joke sometimes now with friends that I feel like I gave away all my niceness then in that. Not niceness, but like I know I'm quite. No nonsense. If someone is rude or I just won't work with them. It's just all of these things. But I think when you're in that stage, like you say, and you're just. And I remember you're saying about how they don't really care, the bosses. I remember when I had to. I was. When I did leave to go out to live in Mallorca, which is where we started property renovation because my family had a business and my father couldn't. He had a stroke and wasn't able to carry on. It was. I, uh, decided, having seen some paperwork and issues out there, to go and take it over. And I resigned. I went into the office to resign and it wasn't my boss, it was

Speaker A: her second in command.

Speaker B: And I remember to this day me telling her this kind of quite long winded, a bit nervous story about my father's had a stroke. She was typing and she didn't look up the whole way through until the end. And then I said. And I said, so I'm going to leave and move to Mallorca. And literally barely looked up. But it was so funny. I almost saw myself for that moment in kind of one of those hilarious books by Sophie Kinsella or something where I was just like, is this for real?

Speaker A: Oh my God.

Speaker B: Thank goodness I am the heroine that's taking myself out of this awful place where I've been like working really hard, paid pittance and clearly have no respect. So, yeah, I think all those things build towards.

Speaker A: I love that. And it's. I don't know, I think I got slightly addicted to resigning jobs and I changed jobs every two or three years because I'd always go for the next one. And I had that imposter thought of, I'm actually really good at interviews and I put myself in these new jobs going, can I actually do this? Oh, I'll work it out. It's fine.

Speaker B: Yeah. And once you worked out, you got bored, probably.

Speaker A: Yes. And then go to the next one. Which I think is why being self employed Works well for me because every day is that challenge and it's the variety of people you speak to. So, like night and day, when you're working for one business with a bigger team and you're doing your one role as opposed to when you're self employed and you're wearing many hats across many different departments, if you've got a hunger to learn, it's fantastic. But then you also get to that point, I'm actually really tired now. I do need a holiday.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. I know. And I do find. Yeah, you do get tired. But I think the joy when it's for yourself is different, isn't it? I think it's just. Yeah, the every part of it is you and so the exciting bits are amazing and the hard bits are hard, but I think I wouldn't have it any other way.

Speaker A: How do you manage that mental load of running your business now that you're in grow full time and it's clearly your passion and you're obviously loving it and it's going really well, do you still have those days where you're like, I'm just going to step away, I'm going to go and do some gardening or go on a trip for new inspiration? Like, how do you find that balance for yourself?

Speaker B: Yeah, I think I do and I have to. I always have to force it because I feel that sort of overwhelm and not burnouts, a bit extreme. But there have been times in the past where there's definitely that has happened. So I know and I get the warning signs, but I don't relax very easily. So I have certain things, like I go for acupuncture regularly, which is amazing, probably every month at least. And if I really need to take myself out, it's, yeah, gardening, yoga or a massage or something where I actually can't be buzzing around, working or even on a device. Beginning of my massage, it's always still work things. Oh, I should think this. And then finally my parasympathetic nervous system takes over and I'm like, ah, relaxed. And then it does work for a few days. Yeah.

Speaker A: And something that we ask guests is if somebody's listening to this and they're thinking about pivoting a career or starting a second business, what would you advise them to do now next? Or.

Speaker B: Okay, so I'm focused at the moment on, obviously the new flagship store is a really big focus for us and as you said, it's quite soon to have one. But it came around in a, uh, very, I guess, fortunate way and actually M It feels so right to be in the Cotswolds. Rooted. I think initially when launching we thought maybe year three or four we might have a teeny tiny space in London somewhere. I always wanted my own store though, because I think that really reflects the design background and it's somewhere I can invite people in to experience a bit of that. But I think the reason as well is the people and the connection of the store. Like I really wanted to meet people and to interact with people and to see them interacting with the products and got a uh, store manager now too. But I'm in there every week for two days a week because I really think it's so important to have that human contact. I feel like so much has become online and e common based around algorithms and ads and. But actually nothing beats actually talking to your customers in person. So my real focus for now is the store and relationships that we can build with customers.

Speaker A: I love that. And what about next?

Speaker B: Next, I'm really excited about the 2 cent collections we've got coming for next year. They are both amazing and really unique and I can't wait to then have sort of four, which is not. It won't be that we won't do anything outside of that. But our sort of core four reflects different seasons, different moods, different emotions. And also I really do hope that we will be able to have a tiny weenie store in London in the next few years. But. But not, yeah, probably like 2028. And then the other thing that's very exciting is we signed a partnership deal with a really well known, one of the most established um, amenities companies in the world that license Penhaligon's and White company and that's been signed their contract about six months ago and there's some really exciting potentials in that and I cannot wait for that to become part of Grove where we can start to appear in some lovely hotels and things. So that's really exciting for Next. And never uh, I think never for me is compromising on um, what I've worked really hard to build, which is something really authentic, really good quality, made in England, natural, no parabens, no anything nasty. And just they are expensive products like we the company that make them. For me often saying, Laura, you sure we can make a lovely lotion for less money. But I don't want to compromise on that because I think that uh, over time that will be what hopefully will give us longevity is that people will fall in love with the products, they will recommend them to friends, they'll come back and repurchase and they'll feel, they'll understand that they're buying something that's really special. And so I think for me, even if we start to scale or if there's other distraction or whatever, that will be never compromised.

Speaker A: I love that it's so important now because I think when you're building something it just makes your decision making process so much easier when you know that line that you're not prepared to cross. I think the first ever podcast episode I recorded, my friend Hugo is in venture capital. He said, don't compromise your pricing, be absolute in your pricing, know it. And then you're not going to flip flop on proposals. You're not going to sit there and go, should I put this number in or that number and just send the deck and send the quote. And it saved me hours because I saw myself flipping it and I was like, no, just send it. Just send it and it, yeah, say anything to save time.

Speaker B: There's always no, I think and that's so true because you, especially in what you're doing, it's really hard to put value on yourself. And that's the same with interiors and in design. It's really hard to have confidence in that.

Speaker A: Pricing service based businesses. You've gone from a service based involving product to a product based business. And which do you prefer out of the two?

Speaker B: Definitely product. I think there's something very simple about service and that you are just you and it's all quite linear in that sense. This is my time and this is what I'm going to do for that time. But I think it is hard sometimes to value that, uh, especially when you are only one person and you can't scale in any way. I think product I love because there's enough variety for me in it and I think the potential is. It's not about scaling for us, but it's the excitement of. We have a lot of US customers for example, and they found us organically and we now have four wholesalers out in the US and that excites me so much as something that you never quite know where it could go or be found or discovered. Whereas when I was interiors I would get inquiries from the US but obviously I couldn't go. And I love the idea being able to travel and take the brand out and meet customers in. We're hoping to do some trunk shows and things later in the year out in the US and yeah, I feel like that feels so exciting. With product there's a lot more scope for me how I was Set up anyway, in design was very much me and I didn't want a studio for me. I feel there's a lot more potential with product to travel and just have adventures maybe.

Speaker A: I'm very envious because you can scale a product based brand, service based business. You are limited to your hours and your people.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But then there are ways. Obviously you have to take on staff and expand in a different way and then. Yeah, it depends. But yes, in, in principle that was one of the things that appealed to me about product was that it's more scalable and as we get older, I didn't want to feel that everything was always on me, always. And as the team hopefully grows and I get better at managing things and

Speaker A: something we do is a question from our previous guest which was Jackie, who founded Lepruniere out of California. And they took the stones from the plum farm, the family plum farm, and extracted the oil from into a beautiful skincare brand. So they looked at what waste product was coming out of the family business and turned it into this gorgeous, incredible luxury brand. And her question was, what is the best piece of advice that you've ever been given for your business?

Speaker B: So funny when I was thinking about this one and this, I don't know if this has a lot about me in a good or bad way, but I haven't actually been given that much advice. So it was quite hard. And that's probably because I go very in inside a lot of my design. It all comes from inside me. But uh, I don't start a podcast interview people. But I do remember I had a lovely email about probably only a few weeks after we launched and it was from a lady who founded a very successful brand back in the day and she said to me, I just want to tell you how amazing I think this product is in this brand. Congratulations. And just be patient and stick with it. And I was like, what does that mean? And she said it will feel some days like nothing is happening. And that might go on for quite a long time. But she said if you keep going and you keep doing what you're doing and just don't a bit like what we're seeing about resilience. Just don't let those, the negatives and the nothing happening make you feel like it's not worth it because if you keep going, it will be. And so I think I come back to that and I think to myself when it is a bad day, I'm um, actually you've just got to keep going and actually stop and acknowledge how far you've come sometimes, too. Because I think we're all like, what is success? I think as an entrepreneur, you're often looking at the next thing and this and the, why aren't we doing that yet? But actually, I think being resilient, kind of being patient, but also noticing how far you've come in. I don't know, six months, a year. Give yourself a moment.

Speaker A: Yeah. And reflect. That's maybe the fourth R. Um, along with the other three. And what would your question be for our next guest?

Speaker B: What do you feel your business has taught you about yourself that you weren't expecting or you didn't know before?

Speaker A: That's amazing. I love this. Yeah. We've never had the same question twice, which is, why not?

Speaker B: Because I was worried that might be one. Someone who had.

Speaker A: So true. Because you are your business. I love that most of the time. And some days I'm like, I want a day off for myself, but I can't. But you do learn a heck of a lot about yourself and maybe how resilient you are and how much oomph you've actually got in there when it's your own company. So. No, I love that. I can't wait.

Speaker B: It might be something that you just really don't like doing. I've realized that fulfillment. We've done some of that ourselves, and we. When it comes to that, I get really excited about a raw mail label being printed out. That's a lovely joy. But anything that goes wrong with any of it. So any kind of all this has been lost in here, or. It literally fills me instantly with this kind of level of panic. And. And I'm like, God, I'm, uh, not good at operations. But you do learn things like whether it's something more deep or just actually, gosh, I hate doing that.

Speaker A: I. My team laugh at me. I like nothing more than sending up service agreements and setting someone up on zero as a customer, as a client, and sending that first invoice being like, my work here is done. I'm like, oh, no, now I actually have to do the work. Now I've won the business.

Speaker B: But it's funny you say that, because I felt a bit like that, uh, when I was doing interiors, it was such a joy and so flattering and wonderful that someone wanted to work with me. And the quote, and they'd approved it, and, oh, that first invoice. And exactly like you. Then you suddenly go, oh, actually, I've now got probably two or three years of working on this, which is fine. But it's quite daunting when you get over that initial. Initial life.

Speaker A: You think, oh, that's the hard part. And you're like, oh, no. Actually have to do the stuff that's in the service agreement as well. But it's two parts.

Speaker B: No, but it does feel very satisfying. I know exactly what you mean.

Speaker A: No. God Loves Zero and Dexter Receipt, Capture. It's nothing.

Speaker B: I love Dex. Love zero, love spreadsheets. That was all definitely. I found that out about myself when we started renovating. And that was a really unexpected. Because I'd always been, I guess, if I say, fed more into the English literature and journalism and then had totally forgotten that. Actually, maths was my favorite subject when I was eight. Seven or eight. And suddenly when I found spreadsheets, I literally was so excited by the fact they would add things up and do things. Profit and loss and, oh, heaven, knowing

Speaker A: your numbers, you know your business, and then you know where you are with the business. I find that's quite a therapy. If I'm having a bit of a bitty day of lots of things coming out of nowhere, I'll just run the numbers and it'll give me a real grounding sense.

Speaker B: I do the same. Sometimes it's awfully in bed on my phone, and I. Even if I'm having, like, a panic, I'm like, oh, my God, today's been terrible. There's hardly been any sales. Then I take a deep breath and I'm like, oh, but, Lou, look, let's do some projection. Patrick's there reading next to me. What are you doing? I'm like, nothing.

Speaker A: Just. Just some formulas.

Speaker B: It's so calming, though sometimes times is the best.

Speaker A: Thank you, Laura, so much for your time. It's been an absolute joy chatting to you about Grove, England, and huge congratulations on your very quick success with it. I cannot wait to see what happens next.

Speaker B: Thank you very much. It's been a heaven to catch up and. Yeah. Chat with you.

Speaker A: If you'd like to contact Laurie, you can find all of her details in the show notes along with a recap of the advice that she has so kindly shared. I'd really appreciate it if you shared this episode with a friend of yours that might be in the same boat. It would mean the world to me that this show can reach more people more often. Thanks so much and see you next week.