What makes a great company culture?

Speaker A: Foreign. Welcome to the how to Be Happy at Work podcast. My name is Megan Davies and I'm delighted to welcome you to the podcast where we talk about leadership, sparkling work culture and all the things that you can do to make sure that your workplace is a happier place to be for everyone. We're recording this the week before Christmas, so we've got nativity plays, late night Christmas shopping, all of the chaos going on.

Speaker B: So if you are in the same

Speaker A: boat, I'm right there with you and hopefully we can all get through this week and have a bit of a rest over Christmas. Whether you are a brand new listener or you've been here from the beginning, I'd like to say a big thank you for listening this year. This is our final episode for 2022 and if you haven't listened already, you can find all the episodes in the series@, uh, zephyr.com on the Zephyr app or wherever you are listening right now. We are rounding off the year with a really brillian, brilliant guest and I was super excited to talk to her, mainly because I just think she's a brilliant human being all round. Emily Link is a director at Interactive Workshops. They are a learning and development agency that create learning experiences for all sorts of organizations to help them with their challenges and their goals. Emily has worked with loads of amazing companies like Samsung, Red Bull and Savills, and she designs programs for organizations who want to focus on communications, leadership, teamwork,

Speaker B: all of those lovely things that help humans work better together.

Speaker A: Outside of all of that, she loves playing football for a team in London's Premier League. We got together to talk about culture, uh, how to run better meetings and yeah, just what it's like to be humans who work together. Hope you enjoy it.

Speaker B: Can I start by asking you about what culture, what good culture in an organization means to you? Like, what are the elements that you would say, like, make up a great, ah, culture in an organization?

Speaker C: Oh, it's a good question to kick off with, um, culture is really interesting, I think, because it's really hard to see, but you do feel it and I think it's something that we often use actually in our workshops when we talk about culture, we show people a picture of a fish tank and say, what do you see? And people say, oh, the fish, there's some reeds in there, there's some pebbles, there's, you know, a little filter cleaning the water. But then people don't often see the water and the water is the culture within that organization. So culture can be Quite invisible. Um, but it's felt by a lot of people in the way people act and kind of how they feel when they come to work where they can feel safe, can feel like they can contribute, that they're valued, that they're empowered within that working environment. I think those are the things that make a great culture and they have fun, they feel like they belong to something. I think as human beings, whether that's just my opinion, but I think it's shared by quite a lot of people that we like to belong to things. We're sociable animals. And if you think coming out the back of the pandemic, one of the things that people, whether they wanted it or not, you know, there was a bit of, uh, a do I want to go back to the office? I've got quite comfortable in my home environment. There are some serious pluses, but actually being back around people for me makes work quite enjoyable. I think ultimately people like that element of belonging and having fun, fun at work.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think you're so right. And how do you think that it is difficult to create that culture of belongings? Like, like people must talk to you all the time. Like we, we really want, like, you know, one of our values is making sure that people belong, but we don't know where to start. And presumably that's mostly the leaders of organizations that are asking you those sort of questions. Like they come to you and they say, emily, you know, can you guys help us with this particular challenge that they've, that they've got? And they've. Presumably they've got the. They know where they want to be, but they just don't know how to get there. Is that fair to say?

Speaker C: Definitely, definitely. And I think it's a word that's often used, um, quite, quite frequently within our space is like, we want to create a better culture. It's like, okay, what does that look like? What is it like now? And almost having those conversations that challenge, uh, maybe leaders that of course they can start to sow the seeds, but effectively everyone within their organization, they are carriers of culture. So can we create experiences, you know, team sessions or company wide sessions around what it means to work here, what our culture looks like and therefore how we can create it collectively. Uh, rather than leadership teams having to say this is, this is what it is and this is what we do. I think individuals, if you're recruiting brilliant people, they will have a great sense of what they would like their workplace to be like.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And feel invested in making that happen. So it's Kind of creating environments where they can do that.

Speaker B: That's so interesting because a lot of the time we think that leaders set the culture and it's set from the top. And, and I mean it's true in some ways in the sense that if you've got leaders who are not walking the walk.

Speaker C: Yes, role, uh, modeling is key.

Speaker B: Role modeling is key. You know, then it can fall apart. But it isn't just about like exactly like you say, you don't want kind of the, the board to sit in a room and decide what the culture is and then go out and tell everybody what it is. You've got to sort of create it from the bottom up as well. Right?

Speaker C: Yep, agreed.

Speaker B: And I love that idea of like whole team workshops. And so I'd love to hear more about that. Like how does that kind of work? Is that the first thing that you do, you get the whole team in or how does it work?

Speaker C: I mean, it's, uh, probably one of the reasons I love my job is it never looks the same in two contexts. So we often go in and have those consultative conversations with maybe a leadership team or a group of people that would like to do something around a topic like culture and then bespokely design it up for them. But our main, I guess, principle behind it is trying to involve the people, whether it's the managers, the leaders, the team members in some of those conversations early on feeling a real part of that workshop creation and then also being really involved in the workshop itself. Because to your point exactly, like leaders can't just walk out or managers and say, look, this is the culture of my team. This is what you must do actually. You need to involve people in that process, get their ideas and they will have brilliant ideas that they can bring and make happen. But leaders of course then also have to exhibit those behaviors. That has to be a, it can't be just be a one off thing. Oh, we're gonna have this workshop and we're gonna do something around culture. Leaders also have to then mirror those things and be really invested in it too as well. Yeah, that can't be the disconnect.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's so true. That kind of ongoing. That must, you must m. Feel that a lot. That sort of making sure that once you've done a first workshop or even a series of workshops, like you've got to make it clear that this is like on a Tuesday morning. Yeah, we're doing culture. Uh, yeah. And then we're not like you. It must be really. Exactly. It must be really important to you to like make sure that you um, help those teams with that kind of longevity of nurturing that, that sense of culture.

Speaker C: Definitely. And having like follow up sessions. So often teams or organizations will have a annual get together or you know, a mid year kind of piece around strategy or like a sense check on where we are. Whether it's at the beginning, the end kind of rhythms are set by organizations and teams themselves. But one of our um, key principles is to sometimes say, look, what are you going to do next? Because it's really great to talk about. I mean we fall victim of this ourselves. You know, we, we sit down and have a strategy session at interactive workshops or a session with our team. It's like, when are we next going to check in on this? When are we going to keep that a, uh, main priority as a main priority for us, hold ourselves to account and continue the conversation. Culture is essentially ever evolving. It can't stand still. So you've got to have those touch points. And we like working with organizations and teams for long periods of time rather than the one off session.

Speaker B: Yeah, I can imagine, um, that having that ongoing conversation and also empowering them I guess and giving them the tools that they need to have those conversations when you're not there. Yes, I guess it's tempting for them in, in a sense to be like, oh well, interactive workshops in the house. Yeah, you know, we're going to talk about culture today. So you've got to make sure that they've got those tools that they can take away and, and carry on. Can I ask you a question about that priority piece around culture? Do you ever have the experience of organizations, um, that you work with, you know, people just saying, I haven't got time for this, like I've got, I've got sales targets to meet. Like really, you know, do you, do you have that kind of pushback and how do you deal with it? And what would you say? You know, what do you say to people who kind of push back a little bit on. I don't have time to talk about culture.

Speaker C: Yeah. So, um, so one of our key things is trying to find out what a goal is. So often people will come to us with a project or a piece of work or we might reach out to them depending on how conversations have started. But ultimately if you're aiming for a particular goal, even if it is a sales goal and m a target around that, like a clear commercial goal.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: It's trying to then work out what that means in terms of inputs to get There, one of those will probably be around culture, like how our team is going to actually operate, what are the processes, we're going to have a place, how are we going to communicate with each other, what are some of the rewards going to be? You know, how are we going to do this collectively, or do we want an individualized culture? Often the answer is collective. So it's kind of challenging. And that's where that consultative piece comes in at the beginning to say, even if it is a sales goal or a performance goal, culture will be a key ingredient in that, as well as lots of other different topics that we might look at through a series of sessions that might get to that outcome. But it's just trying to say, okay, because most people come with a want in mind. I want to get here in like 6 months, 12 months, 2 years. And then trying to undo that, to see, okay, well, how do we get there? What are some of the steps with some key ingredients along the way?

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Tell me about some of those other key ingredients.

Speaker C: Um, so there's a variety of things that we could work on with a team, um, and they. Or. Or a company. So could be things around, like workshops we've mentioned on particular topics like culture, motivation, thinking about how maybe you might have individual coaching sessions with different leaders within a team or managers, um, thinking about particular goals that you might have for individuals and how you might break those down. So like how people can be motivated in different ways. Um, there's a. There's a whole host of things and that's, That's. I guess the. Trying to understand that better is like, where do we want to get to? Trying to think of some examples where maybe we've had. We've had, um, one of our clients in particular have got lots of regional offices, um, which kind of create their own culture underneath, maybe an organizational culture. So it's trying to help them understand like, what their vision and what their mission is for their individual office and then how that is going to manifest and what the people can be responsible to and contributing to, and that, um, might have a whole host of different learning experiences alongside it.

Speaker B: And that's fine, isn't it? Like that, that's okay for a regional office to have its own mini culture, because the worst thing, I guess, is that, you know, you've got an HQ in, in London or somewhere and they're saying, right, this is the culture, everybody's got to do this. And yeah, it just doesn't really manifest itself, you know, effectively in those kind of regional offices. So It's, I think. What are you saying? That it's, you know, kind of that grow it. Growing it naturally or organically works? I mean, I guess it, I guess if you grow it naturally and organically with the team, then they live it.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: You know, authentically and they believe in it. Ah. Um, yeah, that's really interesting. And I mean in terms of, kind of. We talked a little, you were talking a little bit a minute ago about motivation and getting people, you know, on, on board with goals and, and working towards them collaboratively. And I think that there's a lot at the moment, a lot of chat and you know, LinkedIn is full of it. Uh, and the news are full of, you know, the great resignation people. Quiet quitting, you know, just motivation feels rock bottom. It does, doesn't it? What's your take on true or, you know, does it? I mean the headlines say it is, but, but what's your kind of feel on it kind of from, from the field?

Speaker C: Yeah, Um, I guess just thinking about the last three or four years that it's just been such a different landscape. Like people have such a different connection to work than maybe they previously did. Um, and I think that is off the back of the pandemic and people feeling like it's a bit more transactional rather than coming into workplaces and going back to that belonging piece, feeling like they belong to an environment and also just thinking about where their future might lie. And people are really invested in, I think working for organizations that value them as people. Um, but think about like their progression and their development and like there's a real, from I think incoming generations of like, what am I going to be upskilled in? What am I going to learn whilst I'm here? Like, are those things being reflected in my experience every day rather than just thinking about what's in the pay packet at the end of the month or loyalty just being the thing that is done. I think people aren't scared to have portfolios within their career. Like go to many different organizations to find out and that's quite exciting prospect. And so I think people are more interested in moving around than they've ever been. But I think the great, um, those that are employing and really thinking about what individuals want are starting to say, okay, well how do we listen to these people and how to react to them? And actually a lot of it comes down to maybe their experience with their managers and the teams that they work in. Like do those one to one connections, do they have something, you know, that they feel like they can own that they can upskill in and that they're contributing to something bigger. Then actually you'll probably retain those team members rather than them thinking, oh, there's a shiny new thing over there or the grass is greener, I'm gonna jump ship.

Speaker B: Yes. I mean if you even think back to, I don't know, 20 years ago, like the goal was, you know, get a good job and probably stick with it, you know, and climb the ladder within that organization.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you're so right now it just feels like there isn't such a, a problem with oh, that won't look very good on my CV if I've jumped around a bit. That just seems not so important anymore. Right.

Speaker C: No. And it's like maybe that's a variety of experiences and that' exciting as it's an exciting prospect rather than staying somewhere for a long period of time and progressing.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, um, when you said about. It's not necessarily about what's in the pay packet, you know, the research has shown recently that salary is quite far down the list of factors that ah, affect people's happiness in their job or their workplace well being. And it's more about belong, that sense of belonging, feeling trusted, feeling like they trust their manager, they trust the leadership team. And I think trust is hu. It's a huge thing. But how do you build it? I mean it's just, it feels, it feels like a little bit. It's not particularly tangible, is it? And so it must be. Um, you've, you know, organizations have got challenges at the moment. We're going into a really difficult economic time.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And trust me, you know, it might be a difficult one to kind of keep going. And I'm interested to hear what you think about that. Yeah.

Speaker C: And I think, um, there's, there's lots of organizations that are quite concerned about the economic downturn that is happening. May happen. Looks likely. Um, and I think the more transparent leaders can be to varying degrees, you know, around what the future holds.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: The better it is for the individuals within those organizations. I think those places that in the pandemic were a little bit behind screens and therefore their team members and those that worked there didn't really know what was going on and what the future held. Felt a little bit disconnected from that place that they worked. Whereas it's, it's in the news. We all know that trouble is on the horizon.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, and actually if we can be honest about what that looks like within our particular organization, but also what the plan is. So here at interactive workshops, we've had to be quite candid about, you know, we've got lots of clients within various industries who might be hit in different ways, maybe impacting their L and D budget. But what can we as individuals do to try and weather that storm? Like, can we have some proactivity then? You can feel much more, um, empowered in that process. So as individuals, like, we now have like particular sales hours that we can focus on trying to build those connections with new companies. Organizations to try and m. Have less risk to us, I guess, as an organization going forward. But then you feel like, okay, great. Like our leadership team has been honest about where we are right now, but they've also allowed me to have some input into what happens next. I can hopefully create some positive news within the organization if I do those sales actions and I start to put ourselves on the front foot going forward.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's great, isn't it? That transparency is, is absolutely key. Um, and what about in a, in a larger organization? Like, you know, you've got thousands of employees. That's tough in terms of kind of communication top, you know, coming from the top.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: What are your sort of. When you're working with those larger organizations, what kind of, I guess, tips and tools do you talk about from a communication point of view?

Speaker C: So I think, um, you can still reach people in various mediums. Um, and I think also those organizations tend to feel far more professional in the way that they might have town halls or they might do little video clips out to their, to their organization as a whole.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: But really the experience within those comes. Comes from the, the manager, from the leader. That's maybe more. More within the team. That's almost like the micro CEO. Right. If you work for an organization that's full of thousands of people, your main experience comes from your manager and your leader rather than your CEO, uh, who seems many, many light years away in some respects.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: Um, so it's actually like, how do you empower some of those managers or leaders to still have those transparent and open conversations and help those teams members feel like they're still in control of their destiny to a certain. So they can still have some value to add even within a challenging market in a challenging context. Like, what can we do collectively to move us forward? Because at the end of the day, like, we can only really operate in teams of around 7, 7 to 9 people, the research would suggest. Like, that's our experience.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: And outside of that, of course, we'll hear the noise. We'll get some communications and hopefully we'll get a little bit of FaceTime if we're lucky with more senior leaders and there's different mediums they can try and communicate us through. But actually the lived experiences through maybe those smaller teams and trying to empower those individuals there to have the right messaging, feel supported in having those conversations.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's so important, isn't it? It still comes down to that individual, personal. It doesn't matter how big your organization is, ultimately it comes down to one to one relationships and feeling like you're part of a team and just like you say, probably quite a small team.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, and I think it's so important and I know this is exactly what you guys do, which is basically putting that spotlight on that. Mm mhm. Um, and making sure that everybody in a team has the opportunity to just think about team building and collaboration and teamwork within their working week. Um, because a lot of the time we can, especially if we're really busy. If you go through a really busy period at work and you, you just sort of like, you know, come up for air one day and it's like, oh, three months have gone by and

Speaker C: we haven't, I mean, how is it already November?

Speaker B: Like how is it November? And we haven't reflected on what's working and what's not working, you know, and, and it's, I think that you guys give organizations that opportunity to reflect. Mhm. Um, but it can happen so often, can't it, that you know, like six months will go by and.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Oh, uh, we haven't talked about whether that Monday morning meeting actually works or 100, you know what I mean?

Speaker C: Also this, this stuff is so easy to talk about externally. And also we, you know, we struggle with it internally as well. You know, finding the time to sit down, talk about what is working, what isn't working, even to upskill your team in various skills. Like it's, it's, you know, talking to organizations. It's very easy to from an external point of view, say look, this is exactly what you should do. Like have these conversations, run these workshops. We'll check in at this point, we'll have those one to one coaching sessions. We've got a clear goal in mind. Brilliant. And um, they kind of build us in to that piece for the accountability. So like interactive workshops are going to come back in. We'll see them in November, we'll see them in January, whatever that looks like. But you know, I am not ashamed to say that when you're doing that for yourself and for your team. It's far. It's much more difficult. Like we've had a real, um, push this year on kind of upskilling our team internally. So running our own L and D program about the role that we have at IW as producers and that's, that's a real extra ask from, you know, our busy schedules to get that time in the calendar for the team, also for ourselves, to plan those sessions and deliver the content we want in an engaging way that has the value out the other, out the other side as well. But yeah, you've got to keep those things on the agenda. But it's not easy to do in all honesty.

Speaker B: I know. Yeah, it comes back to that kind of walking the walk.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: While you talk the talk.

Speaker C: Exactly. I go to so many sessions where we're delivering things around management skills or leadership skills. I'm like, oh yeah, that's a good reminder for me as well, isn't it? And that's. We're not there to um, say, look, we do everything that we're sharing within this workshop behind the scenes. I think we do 90% of it. But those sessions are also a reminder to us to say, look, we've got a team back here that needs regular feedback, conversations, needs clear goals and objectives. You know, all that stuff. It's, it's a reminder for everyone. And that's hopefully in those conversations we never come in like the preachy people that say, this is what you must do and we're perfect. We come in saying, look, here's some ideas, let's facilitate the conversation. And often we learn a lot from those environments as well, which makes our jobs enjoyable at the same time. So many different ways of doing things.

Speaker B: Yeah, I bet that's true actually, because we're not talking about something that has, you know, an absolute. This is the process, steps one to 10, you know, the magic formula.

Speaker C: If only.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. The magic formula.

Speaker A: This is the template.

Speaker B: It's going to work for all organizations. That just isn't the case. You know, you're dealing with human beings so um, you must have to go through that kind of. I mean, I'm sure you've got a toolbox, which is a great, obviously. Mhm. A great start. But sometimes that maybe there's a whole new tool that you just haven't discovered before.

Speaker C: And that's why we, we really do put emphasis on that, really getting to know the client, like so scoping things out. Well, having those conversations as much time as they're really willing to give us so that we can design something bespokely for them. Because there, there are lots of things you could do off the shelf, but we don't specialize in that area at all. So we like to understand the real wants and needs from their side and then kind of put some sort of provision in that helps with that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Can you give us some.

Speaker B: An example of. I mean, you know, not the name, but, you know, can you give us an example of the process so that it, you know, the first sort of steps. What are the kind of problems that an organization brings to your door and says, emily, this is what we need help with and does it always end up being that problem or actually does it end up being something else? I'd love to hear.

Speaker C: I mean, how many buzzwords would you like, is the question? Um, no. I mean, there's a whole host and whether they're framed, they're always framed as problems, they're often framed as like, we'd like to get there. Like this is the goal, this is the opportunity we've got, um, or we've got big stretching targets. Can you help us put in a plan to make that happen? I mean, it can be across varying levels within a team organization, things around communication, collaboration, feedback, managers, maybe becoming people managers, but more technical experts, um, people being onboarded into programs, needing to learn systems, processes. How do we do that really effectively and in the shortest amount of time so that they're up to speed. Those are some of the things that people come to us about, um, having difficult conversations. Like we'd prefer if our managers, our team leads, had them rather than hr have to have them, those kind of things. Um, and then usually through our process, of course, talking to the stakeholder, the person that maybe has come with that original want. But if we can, we like to have a conversation with the actual team members, managers, technically, the user population.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: To find out what the reality is like on the ground. So there may sometimes be a disconnect between those two different individuals. So we just kind of marry that up and we often go back with some research, some insights off the back of that to say we've spoken to a whole host of people. These are some options we think we could do going forward to help you. M. And then it's up to them and often they'll, they'll choose a combination of things, or maybe it's something we design up and they deliver. There's, there's a whole host of ways that things can come to life and we're really into building partnerships rather than the one off piece as mentioned. It's kind of like, can we embed something and really enjoy. We work with some wonderful people in learning and development and talent and hr. Um, can we enjoy working with them and feel a part of their organization, like the internal, external?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. That's so interesting.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: It sounds like you really enjoy your job.

Speaker C: I do. I mean, it has its days, like every job. Um, but it's. It's genuinely quite stimulating. I feel quite privileged to be in those conversations and to be in the room with people that often want to be there and are really invested in the thoughts we're sharing or the conversation that's being facilitated. Um, because our biggest competition is them probably having a day off, you know, holiday. Where would they, you know, they're not doing something for the business that day in terms of profitable output or whatever that might look like. Instead, they're in a session with their team. We hope the return of that investment will pay dividends in the long run, you know, because they're thinking about their communication or their collaboration or whatever it may be. Um, but ultimately we've got people there that are hopefully there wanting to be there and able to have some good conversation with their colleagues and spend time together, like. So I feel quite privileged to be in that room often enjoying that experience with them because they often, you know, there's drinks at the end of them or, you know, they try and build in some social activities because that is just as important for those relationships.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: As doing some of the stuff that's the nitty gritty on management techniques or feedback or whatever that looks like.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. It's so true, isn't it? And trying to work out those social, um, socializing opportunities to be really inclusive. Um, and, um, tell me a little bit about your kind of away days that you do, like the. The digital detox and that kind of thing.

Speaker C: Yes. Um, so there's a whole host of things we can do to create that environment where people feel, I guess, more their true selves. Um, so one of the programs we run, it's actually a senior leadership program, and it's something we've of course recommended to others within different spaces, whether it's a team coming together. Um, but we ran a program that was your very traditional two days in a room talking about leadership topics and having some good conversations off the back of that. And, um, there was this ask from the group, like, can it be. Can it be longer than two days? Of course. Let's have a conversation with The L and D manager at the time work out what that looks like. And then we asked them, okay, if it is longer than two days, what do you want it to look like? And they're like, we just, we don't really want to be in a classroom, we want to go out and do something else. So, okay, what does that entail? And we came back with a few ideas. One of them being something we call the Outdoor Challenge, which we actually partner with another organization all around outdoor, um, experience where they get sent into. So this, this organization gets sent into disaster zones to respond like firsthand to an earthquake, a tsunami. But where they practice in the UK is kind of their base camp almost to get prepared. They're all volunteers. They're absolutely fantastic.

Speaker B: Wow.

Speaker C: They get set up, up, um, in that organ in that space in the uk and so therefore they also do these experiential experiences.

Speaker B: Ah.

Speaker C: For teams, organizations, whoever it may be, lots of sports teams actually go there to build those bonds.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So we partner with them and design something up. Quite specific around the topic of leadership. But it's this fact that they're in their own clothes, they're without their phones is one of the main things. But we say, of course you can call your kids if you need to say goodnight to them. You know, you're not completely cut off. The idea is you're not scrolling through Instagram.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, you're sleeping under a tarpaulin, you're a little bit uncomfortable, you're sitting around a campfire, you're having real conversations with your colleagues, kind of stripping it back to basics. Um, so that there's that real connection. And people often talk about that element of the program as one of the standout experiences because it feels so different to the everyday. But also they've got real bonds with their colleagues because they were saying they'd worked alongside people for 20, 25 years and they'd never seen them not in their suits, you know, like it was just. That was so unusual to be. Like, it'd be great to see them in their natural kind of, you know, environment. Maybe not their natural environment because that, um, probably not their actual environment to be around a campfire, but just a bit more relaxed in, in the everyday.

Speaker B: Not in a suit, not with the work mask on. Yeah, exactly. And what do you think about that? Like the, do you think that it's realistic for everybody to be that open and honest and authentic with their colleagues? Like, it's, it's a tough one, isn't it? Because there is a bit Of a mask. Yes, for sure. At work. Like, how far should it go? Yeah. Before it just becomes, like, really chummy and then it's not professional. Like, where's that kind of line?

Speaker C: I think that is totally dependent on the organization you're in and kind of you as a person. And those things will definitely impact each other and kind of decide where the line is. I think there's. At the heart of it, there's a call for people to be more people focused, more human focused, and therefore drop the work mask a little bit so that people understand a little bit about who you are. And I think, again, the pandemic was a big leveler for this. Like, with people. Was it being on zoom teams, calls, um, and having, you know, people having an insight into their home and, like, what was going. Suddenly you had to be a little bit more open about what was going on. Did you have young kids you were looking after? Was your partner furloughed? You know, all those conversations were a bit more every day rather than just come in at nine, leave at seven, whatever that looked like. And, you know, in, out, kind of there's a separation between personal and professional.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So I think that dropped it a little bit in terms of that work mask. Um, but I still. I still think, of course, that there's this element of professionalism within the work context. You have to strike that balance. So it is. There is a duty of care from an organization to look after you on the wellbeing aspect, to check in, make sure you're okay. But I talk to a lot of managers having to navigate, maybe when they've been at that same level as their team, and then they've taken that step up as a manager. And how do they make that transition from being pals or mates into a bit more. Well, now I'm responsible for giving you feedback, your progression, maybe having some career conversations with you, and then they've got to then navigate. And I think my point of view on that is just to say, look, there is a bit of a change in our relationship given this context. I think just talking is a big like. Rather than it all going on in each other's heads, just saying, look, it's changed, the dynamics change slightly. This is how we're gonna have to operate as a result of that.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker C: And you've got to navigate. There's no, like, one size fits all. It's work it out as, as, as. And when you see fit for the organization that you're in and the role you're in.

Speaker B: Yeah, you're so right. It is an individual thing, all based on personalities. What do you think about the. So you mentioned that it was a senior leadership away day or week. Yes. You don't want it to become a kind of chummy club at the top because those guys have had the chance to go and do an away day together and have fun. Um, and you don't want people to feel who are kind of in the ranks that they don't get the opportunity to be mates with their team. Do you know what I mean? There's a little bit of a gap or um, a bit more privilege we know at the top. But how do you kind of strike that balance between. You don't want everyone to feel like, oh, you know, the leadership team's gone off on another away day, you know, um, you want to give that opportunity to the rest of the team too.

Speaker C: Right, Definitely. Um, and that's. And that's where context comes in. So the program you're referencing is senior leaders from various parts of the business who often who pre this program wouldn't have actually known each other. So in terms of the context within the team, they. I don't think they would be having any of that chumminess back in their every day. This is kind of, kind of like a ah, network for them that they come and see each other again when they're on that program.

Speaker B: Yes, of course.

Speaker C: Hopefully they can pick up the phone now and pop to the pub with each other, whatever that looks like, you know, um, to have that little bit of support. Um, but I think. Yeah, agreed. You have to be a bit more aware of it. Say, say if it was a smaller organization and you were just taking the leadership team away to do something, um, that they need to kind of communicate back what was done on those particular days or that event and kind of bring in that inclusivity. So like help people understand what they're going to do and what's the offering for that. That other level that's within that organization. We all know hierarchies exist in some respects. Even if you have a flat culture, there's going to be some people with more decision making power, um, a different dynamic within various teams just so that things happen and things get done. M. And it's. How do you still make it feel like everyone is involved in what the output was or those conversations so they feel a part of it and there can be different provisions at different levels, but it's just working out what that looks like.

Speaker B: Yeah, I've definitely had it before in organizations where there's that feeling of meetings are going on and then people forget to come out of the meeting, talk

Speaker C: to other people and talk to other people.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's so true, isn't it? Like people just, all right, I've had that meeting, great. And then they just forget to tell and it just leads to, you know, individuals feeling left out and like there's stuff going on that they don't know about. And if they're, you know, if they're, they're a kind of proactive sort of a person, they might go around and ask. Yeah, but how do they know what to ask?

Speaker C: Exactly. And I think we're, we're guilty sometimes of not using the tools that are available to us. So there's probably an internal way to communicate, you know, whether if, if that is something that's really obvious that's happened. Is there a newsletter, uh, is there a Slack channel? Is there a team sleep, like all company wide thing just to say, look, you know, this meeting happened. Here were three of the outputs. Keep it short and sweet. Or like create the culture where your team members are going to have those conversations that actually put, put that, put those questions or give that feedback. So it feels more inclusive.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean you could send, I guess you could send people into those meetings. It doesn't always have to be the manager that goes into the meetings, does it? No, it could be any, you know, different people in the team that go into the different. I think that's quite good idea sometimes is, oh, uh, I'm not available to go into that marketing meeting. So I'm gonna send, I'm gonna, you know, volunteer somebody, uh, else on the T on my team rather than just saying, sorry, I can't make it send somebody in your team. Um, and that's so good for that kind of their career development and their awareness. I really like that as an idea. Yeah. Um, and it just kind of breaks down that barrier a little bit of, oh, you know, I'm not a manager so I can't be in that particular meeting. I think it's just really, really important to, to open those kind of closed door things. Yeah. Up a lot more. Yeah.

Speaker C: As much as possible.

Speaker B: As much as possible in ways that

Speaker C: work for you, like given the context you're in.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: How. Yeah, Kind of teeing that person up with safe. The example you gave. They've got some prep done. They know what they're going into, they know what they're going to bring back out of it. Yeah, agreed.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And it would Be it's interesting to think about that kind of reflecting on different ways of doing things because so many organizations is just like this is the way we do it. This is the way we did it before the pandemic and now we're back in the office a bit more. So we're just going to keep doing it in the same way. Like it's just so important, isn't it to kind of stop and think how can we make, you know, some improvements across the ways that we did stuff before and, and we don't always have to do it for now, for the next 20 years. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: We worked with a lot of teams off the back of that and even lots of our programs that existed pre pandemic then went virtual is like what were the learnings? You know, now that we are back together or now that there is maybe a challenge to the ways that we did things previously, can we learn from that? Can we take the best bits of that virtual world and actually still, you know, so the flexible working or the blended learning provision that we have, you know, so that sometimes you can dial into something, sometimes you can be there in person because accessibility is key.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So there's, there's conversations to be had like to say okay, what happens next? And I'm sure there will still continue to be iterations as things continue to evolve. You know like people have new ideas, there's a new want from the work from force or there's new ways that we could learn. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: And you can do things in like bite sized chunks. Can't. Mhm. You, you don't have to be like. Right. We can't possibly talk about whether our meetings are working because that's not until next yet. Saturday, you know, not Saturday, next, next month or whatever.

Speaker C: We all now work on a Saturday. It is one way to get an extra bit of time in the week though.

Speaker B: Um, I mean like, you know, there's a temptation to be like um, oh no, we, we've got a strategy day. M. Um, it's in December so we're going to talk about those things on the strategy day because that feels too big. But I do love the idea of things being kind of bite sized. Yeah. And you know, at the end of a meeting, like the last five minutes of a meeting.

Speaker A: Should we just spend the last five

Speaker B: minutes talking about what worked? Yeah.

Speaker C: As a meeting process. How, how many meetings are we in the. We think.

Speaker A: Think.

Speaker C: Uh oh that, that really wasn't a good use of my time. So actually do like your point there can we spend five minutes either improving it or actually acknowledging what did work and that we did stick to the agenda and we did get the output, whatever. And how we then take that forward into the next one. Because we often fall into a trap. So. Yeah. On the spot. How do we improve it? And giving people the voice or the autonomy to change it as uh, they see fit. So if someone in your team says, you know, that wasn't effective because I didn't know what I was contributing to that meeting. Okay, great. So the next meeting we have is someone able to send out, you know, let's take some ownership of that. Doesn't have to be put on a list somewhere.

Speaker B: No.

Speaker C: It's like whoever's setting up that meeting, it's their responsibility as best practice to then tell people what they should bring to it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: So they're ready to use it really effectively.

Speaker B: Yeah. Like what, what are we hoping to achieve?

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Because there's so much pre work that you can do for a meeting. Yeah. You don't have to spend like the first 10 minutes deciding what the objectives of the meeting are. You can ask everybody in advance because we've all got calendars now and they all have a little bit where you put a note in.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Of an agenda or what decision are we going to make? Is it a decision making meeting?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. What, what kind of meeting is it and what do we hope to get out the, the other end of it? And yeah, I think there's, we've definitely got not, not lazy but a bit. We've kind of forgotten that you, by doing things um, you can save yourself so much time like you just have to put five minutes in before the meeting rather than doing and it can make it just so much more effective. But if you don't think about it and also if you've just got one of those calendars that is just so full all the time you don't have time to think about better meetings. But actually it's worth it because it can save you time.

Speaker C: Agreed. And we actually work with one client who one of their principles is if there is no agenda on the meeting invite, you can actually decline the meeting. So you can say like I don't know what I'm coming to.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And I don't know why you specifically want me because time is valuable.

Speaker B: That sounds like my kind of place.

Speaker C: Yeah. And I also think we fall into the trap given um, I mean there are many calendars available but lots of calendars default are 60 minutes on the meeting. And we were Also in a virtual world where to put meetings in was like you didn't even. Megan, I'm not even going to ask you. I'm just going to drop it into your calendar and assume you're going to be there because you're at home.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: And it's a free spot in your day.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker C: And we're kind of still in that phase a little bit where it's can we kill the 60 minute meeting? We've worked with um, a big client on kind of hybrid working. Can you just challenge some of those tiny things that actually have quite a big impact that you then have a bit of prep time or a bit of decompression time. You can send the notes round afterwards rather than being stacked for the day.

Speaker B: Definitely.

Speaker C: And then it hits like 5:30pm M. You're like oh, now I'll do my actual work then for the day. All the stuff that I haven't done because I've just been in meeting after meeting.

Speaker B: Exactly.

Speaker C: And should it even be a meeting?

Speaker B: Could it be an email?

Speaker C: Could it be an email? Could it be like a little update on a Monday board or something like that? Just says that's done and I've got that. The fact that you've. I need to now review it rather than have a meeting to talk about the review. Like challenging the comms channels that we might use to be effective.

Speaker B: Definitely. And we've got so many.

Speaker C: Maybe that's the problem.

Speaker B: Maybe that is the best.

Speaker C: Because I do. There's so many out there. It's first using the right one but they're not over saturating, you know like because it's like where do you look? It's like what's the right thing I should look for for X, Y or Z.

Speaker B: And don't you think that, I mean certainly within an organization uh, that there are different teams who prefer different modes of communication. So you've got like the developer team who on Slack if you want to talk to a tech person, go to Slack.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then you've got maybe the marketing team like teams. Then you've got people using you know, different Trello or Monday and there's all just different preferences.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: Which you know when it comes down to it it actually doesn't, it doesn't really work.

Speaker C: No, no. It doesn't work organization wide at all if you're trying to link up those places. Yeah.

Speaker B: It's really hard. I mean communication is just, just so it is a challenge. It's 100 and but, but if you. I think it Goes back to what we were saying before, like, with your best intentions, if you are putting your, you know, you're, you're showing your team that you are in, you're intending to improve and you're all on a journey together and we're not, you know, just sitting back and not doing anything. We have got the intention to, to work towards this goal.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: Then I think that's. You're halfway there.

Speaker C: Yeah. And having conversations. So I think it doesn't need to be necessarily the manager, the leader, uh, the exact team that's in charge of fixing all of that and making it all great. It's saying like I did. So we, we took slack on because one of my colleagues, like we were relatively junior at the time and she said this would be a great communication platform for us because it's got different channels within it that we can make sure that anything's a priority or urgent, uh, can be seen, people can be tagged. So it's, people will come with ideas. If you say, let's try and improve our communication, like, what should we do about this? People will feel then empowered rather than it feeling like it's one person's responsibility to solve it. Because effectively it's always going to keep changing. We're always going to have to think of new ways that's going to be the better way to communicate and collaborate.

Speaker B: And I love that it can come from anybody in the team. That's, um, that's the ideal, right? Is that you've, you've got, you're within an organization where somebody, whatever their job title is or seniority is, can come with an idea, it's listened to and it's implemented. If it's the right thing.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. That's what you need to create environments like that. Not always easy, but that's the aim.

Speaker B: That's the aim.

Speaker C: Because then it will just keep evolving because people feel empowered to evolve it rather than feeling disconnected from it and saying like, oh, uh, that's really frustrating, isn't it? But it's someone else's responsibility to fix or sort it or work it out. Actually, if you can create environments where people are like, I've got a really good idea because I think it will help us leverage, uh, X, Y or Z, or do this better. I'll suggest it and maybe I'll even start making it happen because I can experiment with it and then off we go.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I feel like I can make a mistake and that's okay. Yeah. And you know, my leadership team are going to back Me? Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker C: Kind of like feeling like they're the secure base and it's okay to go and try things and learn from that process. I think, you know, great people will want that from their workplace. They'll want places where they can go and explore, try things out with their boss, their manager, saying, like, that's, yeah, go for it. Let's see what happens. Don't worry, like, we'll try it out. If it doesn't work, we learn. If it does work great, we crack on, like that kind of supportive leadership in that sense.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: That sounds pretty brilliant to me. M. Yeah.

Speaker C: Yeah. It can be scary at times, but it's good to, uh. Good to kind of have that ability to go and try and discover. And then you think, oh, God. I think going back to the question of, like, probably why I enjoy working here is I definitely had that since day one. But that's quite daunting when you first, you know, whoa, like, should I just

Speaker B: go and do it?

Speaker C: Shall I make it happen?

Speaker B: Do they mean it?

Speaker C: Do they mean it? And then you start doing it and things work out or don't. And maybe when they don't, that's when you really learn that it's okay to try, because that doesn't. Doesn't matter. We learn from that. We move. Yeah, uh, let's do this next time. It's like, they've got your back almost.

Speaker B: Yeah. It's so. That's so important, isn't it, that it actually works in practice? Because it's not just about saying it. You actually need to feel it and it actually needs to happen in order for people. People to trust it. Because people generally don't trust, you know, somebody telling them something. It's only when it actually physically happens that they realize that it's actually true and real.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: It's been so good to talk to you, Emily. Thank you so much for sharing everything with us so generously, and thank you. Um, I mean, I. I think it's, like, a lot of fun doing what you do.

Speaker C: Well.

Speaker B: I think you're brilliant.

Speaker C: Oh, I think you're brilliant, too. And let's hope we can do some work together at some point. M. Absolutely.

Speaker B: For sure.

Speaker C: I'm sure there's lots of. Lots of fun projects out there we can. Lt stuck into.

Speaker B: Love to Love to.

Speaker C: Fantastic.

Speaker B: Thank you.

Speaker C: Bye. Bye.

Speaker B: Bye. That was Emily Link.

Speaker A: If you are interested in the conversation that we had today and you'd like to talk to Emily about any of the things that we just talked about,

Speaker B: she would love to hear from you.

Speaker A: The team at Interactive Workshops are a fantastic bunch. They're so full of energy and they are true specialists in designing and delivering learning experiences um, for the teams um that they work with who want to work better together. She is happy for you to to email her directly at emilyteractiveworkshops.com or you can check out their website at interactive workshops.com this was a Snaffle podcast production for Zephyr and we recorded the episode at Interactive Workshops headquarters in London.

Speaker B: So thank you so much to them

Speaker A: and especially to Sam for all of his help. To find out more about Zephyr and how measuring the well being of your team at work can transform the impact of your L and D and well being programs, please visit Zephyr.com so all that's left is for me to say thank you to Emily and thank you to all of our guests this year and thank you to you as always for listening. We will see you in 2020.