Episode 244: Mental Health, Belonging and the Role of AI: Carmen Barboza, CHRO at Crowell & Moring

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I hope you're well and thank you so much for joining us today. I'm very pleased to welcome you and to welcome also Carmen Barboza, who is CHRO at law firm Kroll and Mooring. And Carmen is joining us all the way from Washington today, which Carmen is putting a smile on my face. I think I mentioned to you when we first met that I have fond memories of a family holiday not long ago in Washington, DC, where we hired bikes and cycled around all the monuments and the reflecting pool in minus seven degree degrees uh temperature being the British typically British of course we were the only people out in Southampton but it meant it felt like we had the entire of DC to ourselves you know every monument was just for us to enjoy so painting a picture there for everybody listening of uh where you're speaking to us from um thank you so much for joining us a very warm welcome may I invite you to introduce yourself?

Yes, of course. I'm so excited to be here. I am Carmen Barbosa. I'm the chief HR officer here.

Coral and Mooring is a global law firm. We have about 1,500 people and I've been working in HR for over 15 years now. It's something that I'm really passionate about. It feels like bad to figure out another job for me.

I don't know what that would be. I love the human connection. I love the coaching. I'm a certified coach as well.

I'm a yoga teacher also. So I think I bring a lot of those elements of not only how to connect with people, but how to connect with your body, how to show up authentically as a whole person, not just Carmen, the mom or Carmen, the HR person, but Carmen, this multifaceted person. Well, wonderful introduction, Carmen. Thank you so much.

I didn't know about your yoga passion and qualifications I love yoga as well but I'm no way near as good as you as if I understand of it but thank you so much for beginning a podcast called how HR leaders change the world with reference to the entirety of us as humans and connection with you know mind and body I absolutely love that that's the first I think on all the episodes we've done it speaks volumes about your leadership so thank you so much for kicking off that way oh my cheeks are hurting already from smiling so much well I'm gonna dive into our first question yeah they know it very well we think of you as an HR leader whose influence is driving social change and we would like to ask what do you feel has been your biggest impact to date?

Yeah, I started the conversation by talking about this multifaceted person that I am, because that's truly how I think about myself and how I think about the world. And as I reflect on the impact that I've had, I can't help but think about the pandemic. And the pandemic really changed how the world thought of HR professionals. Some organizations used to think HR was still back of the house.

And this was a real moment for us to step up and an opportunity for us, one, to help people think about how to work differently. So it was that transition from home, from work to home. But I think it was also creating space for people to feel safe at a time that was really scary. And in the legal profession, so specifically here, where I think I had the most impact was we've always known that mental health is important.

but there is a big stigma still in the legal profession around having conversations about mental health and burnout. And heaven forbid someone talked about needing a therapist. And what the pandemic did was highlight how much of a mental health crisis was going on in the world. And so I'm really proud of the programs that we were able to roll out at that point.

And many firms and many organizations rolled out those programs. We were able to keep them post-pandemic. So one of them specifically, we gave hours, billable hours to our timekeepers to take time off to unplug. So we call it unplug time.

We gave them 40 hours. That's really costly to the firm. Those are hours where they're not producing, but we're putting our money where our mouth is. And so we said we truly believe that a well-rounded professional is someone who has time to reset.

And so that's a specific thing that we did. But beyond that, there had to be this level of psychological safety for us to introduce a program like that. Because as you know, many organizations have all these benefits. But if you ask how many of them are actually being used with the utilization, you'll find that some of them are not really utilized because people are afraid to taken off people are afraid to say I need to unplug and so there's the the policy change but there's also the cultural change where we made it okay for people to say I need help where we made it okay to have words like resilience in our vocabulary yeah it's you know I feel I must note that not only is it wonderful to hear about that work and the culture change you created but you know you're speaking to us from an American law firm as well and we all know the pressures that exist in that sector and the kind of hours that you know are well known that people work and the timesheet element as well the billing the hourly billing pressure that is in the model you know exactly and yeah I feel it would be remiss not to mention that the achievement is in that context, you know.

Absolutely. And I'll say to Cecilia, for people who are listening who may not know, sadly, the legal profession has the highest rates of suicidality than any other profession. We see increasingly an alarming high rates of substance use disorder. And so when I talk about an imperative for us to normalize asking for help, I really mean it.

This isn't just a slogan that we had. This isn't just a benefit that exists in a sheet. This was a moment where we thought, how can we change this profession? How can we truly stand out among other firms when we know that these are people who have these really high pressures And then in this American culture though we a global law firm it much harder here to create those habits to take holiday whereas my colleagues maybe in Europe have normalized that in a way that I hope to one day have here, too.

Yes, I am a beneficiary of that element of geographical culture, for sure. um you know it it's a you describe it as something positive that came out of the pandemic and of course we wouldn't wish a pandemic to create the space for these changes but this is a good thing that did happen and noticing this um amongst your peers and happening across organizations across the world the um driver to enhance and change culture around mental health was one of the reasons we started this podcast it was shouting at me from all over LinkedIn because sustainable development goal three is called health and well-being and the sub targets within that goal explicitly name mental health they explicitly name substance abuse as you mentioned there you know very you know first world I'm doing a parenthesis with my fingers our listeners can't see but I'm calling it first world in parentheses uh problems that we might not think of as anything to do with the sustainable development goals but they are absolutely in that that connection therefore in HR's role in creating the world we're all happy in this is one of the areas where it was just screaming at me as I say um and so this podcast came out of the pandemic in that regard as well or was it was fueled by the pandemic I didn't know that about the legal profession and the rates of suicide thank you for sharing the the severity of you know the reasons behind the work you're leading with us it it sounds really very crude to say if anybody's writing a business case you know that's a human case isn't it but no question you know that's the why that as you shared yeah um what an incredible example to kick off with thank you so much Carmen um we also like to ask about what's next in your work as well as looking back at what you've achieved and um the way we like to frame that is to ask what what's exciting you at the moment um in particular in this lens for what's ahead for HR and the opportunity for the profession to drive more positive change?

Yeah, it's interesting. I'm coming from the SHRM conference. For those who don't know, that's the Society of Human Research Management. It's an international conference, 26,000 people.

So that was just last week. So I'm still buzzing a little bit from the excitement of being surrounded by other like-minded people, folks who are just like me, thinking about how we can make change in our organization. And so I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about AI in that context. It's everywhere.

It's the only thing people are talking about. But I think some of my peers and maybe some people even outside of HR are seeing AI with a bit of fear, with a bit of contempt. And I want to turn that up a bit and talk about AI from a place of excitement and a place of we have a role here as change architects, as HR leaders, to hold hands with our CIOs or CTOs and talk about, yes, tech enablement is super exciting. but let's also preserve the humanity in our workplaces.

And as we're introducing these tools, and as we talk about how AI is going to reshape work, we have the ability to think about how we structure that change and to have a responsibility to ensure that we don't lose these enduring, or I'm also using my quotes, these like power skills that perhaps in the past people had refer to as soft skills, AI can't actually replace those. So I see AI as exciting because it expands our reach. It's not going to widen the gap between those who have skills and those who don't.

It can put skills and tech in the hands of maybe people who had disabilities who in the past never thought they'd be able to do a job that now they're going to be able to do. So it's going back to thinking about who are the humans? What's the why behind the work that we're doing? And we are the people who are responsible for continuing that conversation.

So I see it as let's continue to lean on empathy, let's continue to lean on curiosity and judgment and connection, because AI is going to amplify our humanity, not replace it. Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with your optimistic approach. I feel like, well, just for me personally, my personality, there's no alternative other than to exactly positive and um but we just did um a piece of research on within the people processes on of talent attraction and onboarding where we where we've seen you know some early moving in terms of ai uptake and the you know number of software services are in the market already um so we were looking at well hang on we're introducing ai at such pace and digitalizing all over the place are we kind of by accident removing the human connection rather than having that intentional design from start how are people getting on that was the question we posed um and it was exactly with this the same principle that you shared there with the taking a step back starting with the human and using ai to enhance the whole thing not kind of not replace it not taking them out and i think people like you people like me who are asking that question And that's why there's excitement instead of fear, because we see the whole picture.

This isn't just about technology. We have had technology change the world in which we work for decades now. I think about, I still look at some personnel files that I have here where their evaluations were written in postcards before we had email, before we had all these systems. So the disruption has always existed.

And it is our job to encourage and remind people that the humans are going to continue to be here. And so let's use the tool to enhance the deeply human part of the work that we do, not the other way around. Yeah. May I ask one follow up question?

You mentioned you've just been to the SHRM conference. And as you say, here in the UK where I am, the SHRM equivalent is CIPD. There will be lots of CIPD qualified listeners. But could I ask on that discussion around AI and the principle of how we evolve businesses to harness it, could I ask perhaps are there any highlights that came out of the conference in terms of all the speakers you heard or indeed how you're already working with your team and your peers and the rest of your C-suite at Kroll?

what are the practical steps you're taking at the moment to implement and execute on those leadership principles you shared? Yeah it was a good reminder that we are all in this together and that there might be some people who are more advanced than others but at the same time we are all trying to build this bridge as we're crossing it and so it was reminding us of the leadership capabilities to create a base where there is trust and safety to experiment if you don't set those conditions that people aren going to want to experiment try new things continue to iterate And whether they iterating because they using AI or iterating because the world is changing we have a responsibility to set those conditions for that work to happen Second, there's still an ethical responsibility that we all have to our organizations.

And so, yes, AI can do many wonderful things, but we cannot underscore enough the importance of still reviewing the work, of still having those policies that are going to guide how we do the work in a way that, particularly at a law firm, you've seen in the press how many issues we've already had. And so, how can you remain ethical in your use, responsible in your use, create guiding principles that show people how to do the work responsibly? And the third really big theme that resonated with me is that more than ever, the concept of trust is now a metric that we are measuring.

No longer is that nice to have in the organization. People are demanding transparency, clarity, and honestly, that trust in the organization. And if they don't have that, they're going to leave. We are seeing that loyalty that used to exist to your employer is not there anymore.

So how are we making sure that how we engage with recruits, but how we engage in those first 90 days shows our true values in a clear and transparent way? Because otherwise we're going to lose this talent that we've invested heavily in. And that's not even an AI conversation that goes back to the human conversation. 150 of the best HR leaders in one room.

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I can't wait to see you there. Yeah, absolutely. Carmen, we always love to hear all about you, all of you, in addition to your role as CHRO and you already gave us some snippets in your introduction but could we ask a little more as much as you're happy to share in particular you know if there's any area of social or environmental justice that you're personally passionate about and then see that there are connections into your role as a CHRO such that you can act on your passion in your day to day?

Of course. I think the work that we do sometimes can be so hard that for me personally, I'm not, if it's not purpose-driven, I don't know that I could stay in and day out. I came to the United States 20 years ago. I'm from Venezuela in South America and belonging is really important to me.

And I experienced firsthand the struggle of trying to fit in, of trying to find your people, of feeling like I had to mask and I had to cover which are terms we use here in terms of allyship and how we show up so that I could fit in, so that I could have the opportunities that felt like other people had almost handed to them. And so belonging is something that I'm incredibly passionate about. And whether it's in my yoga class or whether it's in my work as a CHRO, I want people to feel like they belong and that they don't have to justify who they are.

They can simply show up. And so for me here at Kroll, it's been about the policies that I'm helping put in place. It's about the leadership behaviors that we truly value, how we model that behavior, the decisions that we're making, and going back to the concept of trust and whose voices are we hearing? Are we only hearing from the loudest voices are we only hearing from the most powerful people um and so as an immigrant i know firsthand that we all benefit also from the people who are willing to put in their capital for us um and so i wouldn't be here if i didn't have mentors and sponsors so i always try to pay that back i keep here in my post-it note on my desk always lift as you climb because it's so important to me to remember that we have a responsibility also to pay it forward.

That we didn't get to where we are without other people's help. And then finally, we are so much better when we have diversity of opinion, when it's not just an echo chamber, when we all agree with each other. The strongest teams are the teams that have people who think differently. This idea of when you put out an idea, a presentation, something to your team, ask them to throw spears at it.

Ask them to tell you all of the reasons why it doesn't work because it creates a productive and healthy dialogue so that we're not just all agreeing with each other, but that our product will be so much stronger because you and I have different perspectives, different values, different cultural upbringing. All of that richness is so important to me and I want to see that in my work here. I want to see that in the community that I live. I want to see that in my kids school like I want to see that in the world I love listening to you Carmen I um I think our regular listeners already know I've mentioned it before I am the granddaughter of refugees and the daughter of an immigrant I'm from Europe to South America and then back to Europe again is is my heritage but there's it's something deep down that I feel the same passion as you even though I don't have a first-hand experience of it it's in my heritage and yeah it's just there it is I don't know part of who I am and it's just it means so much to know you're leading you know an American law firm the way you do it really does so thank you for sharing all of that you know that personal background and we always like to talk about equity and inclusion and belonging on this podcast it another of the areas that i think so directly links the work of hr to the sustainable development goals um and so could i ask if there's any you know just one or two examples things you're most proud of things you think have been most impactful in creating more a more equitable environment.

Are there one or two examples of strategies, pieces of work that you'd like to share? Yes, I'm incredibly proud. So if you know anything about law firms, there tends to be, there's almost two groups that, very broad groups. There's the business side of the house, those professionals who are not the lawyers or solicitors, and then you have the legal professionals, lawyers who do them.

Often at these large firms, and we're not just an American law So we are also outside of the U.S., but particularly in the U.S.

, I can speak to, there are all these benefits that are afforded only to the lawyers. And so whether they call the affinity groups or whether they're called nurse groups, generally you don't see that also for the business professionals. And this was something that we heard over and over again. Why don't we have affinity groups?

Why can't we also participate in joining in people who have the shared background or who have the shared, you know, whether it's cultural or ethnic? But back to start with the why. We wanted to understand what is it about an affinity group that's important to you? What is it that you want?

And what we found is that instead of just people wanting to be part of an affinity group, the question on the staff side was more around, how do I get access to sponsors and mentors and people who can help shape where I'm headed and my career path in a way that maybe I don't even know it's possible because I'm first generation to have a white collar job, first generation to have graduated from university. And so we created, it's called STEP. It's the Staff Talent Empowerment Program.

And so we had each of our chief nominate high performers, high potentials within their organization to be part of this program. It was a year-long program. And each of these employees, we started with a manager cohort, they received a sponsor who was either a partner or a chief at the law firm. And they received training and development skills throughout this year long program to work on how could they level up?

How could they upscale or rescale? How could they find opportunities at the law firm, either by stretch assignments or getting to know parts of the law firm that maybe wouldn't have been accessible to them? learning things like law firm economics, learning about power dynamics, learning all of these things, giving a really comprehensive, well-rounded curriculum to them. And that culminated in a ceremony.

All of them kept through the entire program. They showed up time and time again. And that is not something that you would see often here at a law firm. You would not see partners giving of their time to sponsor a staff member the way that we did and structuring into a program.

and I'm really proud that this is now our second year. We're coming out with a bigger cohort this time around. And seeing how we created these equal opportunities, how we thought about the people who maybe would have been really hard for them to have access to a partner in the first place, who maybe would have never dreamed of being able to sit with a CFO and understand the economics of how a law firm operates because they sit in a sort of back office type of department. That, I feel, really connects with this vision that I have for how everyone belongs and everyone should have an equal chance of making it, whether it's a law firm or any other organization.

And it also highlights this collaboration that happened between all of these departments that came together to have this robust program. Thank you so much for sharing that example. I have more follow-up questions again, but our listeners will be coming to the end of their commute or their dog walk or their morning run, perhaps. So I'm going to turn to our last question, Carmen.

It's a goodie. It's our shortest. And people tell me it's our hardest because it's like I'm a fairy godmother. But all I'm going to do is grant one wish for you today.

and that one wish is one action that you would like to see every HR practitioner in the world take to create positive change what would your one wish be it's a really powerful magic one to have I would say please preserve the humanity um let's not lose humanity in the workplace Let's continue to talk about things like vulnerability, like empathy, like dignity, like connection, particularly at times when with everything going on in the world, there's a lot of infighting. There's a lot of incivility.

Let's continue to be the people holding space for folks to disagree in a way that is productive, to share their opinions, to show up as who they are and not have to mask and not have to armor up to come to work. Work should feel like a safe space. And that only happens if we continue to focus on the humans and not just the tools, not just the bottom line. Thank you so much, Carmen.

I absolutely love listening to you. I hope that one day I can come back to DC and I was going to say maybe we can go on a bike ride together, but maybe I could come to one of your yoga classes. How I hope we can meet in person soon. Honestly, I could listen to you for so much longer than the time's permitted, but thank you so much for giving your time to us, for sharing your leadership, and for being part of how HR leaders change the world.

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