Ep 210 - "The Gas Pedal, the Brakes, & the Transmission"

Speaker A: All right, welcome back everybody. This is a solo episode. Well, it's not a solo episode. I got a special guest, but this guest actually came in studio, which hopefully is the first of many. This has kind of been a dream of Brandon and I to invite folks into the studio live, uh, more Joe Rogan style, so to speak. But Brandon had another meeting and so I was able to get the studio to myself and I brought in Mr. Les Gutches. So Les, interesting connection that I have with him. I see him at my gym. It turns out he's one of the owners of the gym. And uh, it also, like I have a memory of him when I was in high school because he was a college wrestler. And so let me just read off some of this guy's rap sheet. Okay, first of all, he was born and raised in Southern Oregon, Medford High School. Dad was a, uh, retired fire captain. Very hardworking guy. Grew up in the mills in the, in the logging and timber industry down there in Southern Oregon. Les at one point in his childhood, worked at the mill as well. In high school he won three Oregon state titles at 171 pounds, 178 pounds and 190 pounds came later in high school. We actually talk about that a little bit in the podcast. Plus a USA Wrestling national title each year. Then when he went to college, he went to Oregon State University, having been aggressively recruited by several other top wrestling schools. But came, you know, stayed in his home, home state. 130. Here's his record for all of his four year college, four year letterman. 134 wins and 10 losses. Let me say that again. 134 wins and 10 losses. Fifth at the NCAA Championships in 94. Was NCAA champion at 177 pounds in 1995. Both years totally undefeated. Back to back. 69 and O seasons, no losses in his junior and senior years. Three time All American, 1996 NCAA outstanding wrestler and Dan Hodge trophy winner, which I think Dan Hodge was this iconic coach, I'm pretty sure at Iowa, which is one of the most prolific wrestling colleges. Anyway, three time NCAA academic All American, smart dude, has two bachelor's degrees and an mba. Very interesting. Also went to the Olympics and wrestled in the Olympics. 1993 World Championship bronze medal, 1993 Pan American gold. So I could go on and on. This guy was a superstar in wrestling and I wanted to see the connection between his wrestling career and his later success in business and entrepreneurship because now he owns multiple businesses and property and things like that. So we get into all of this, it was such a great conversation. Buckle up, enjoy. And shoot me a message after you hear this and let me know what you think, because I'd like to get other figures, like less onto the show. It, uh, doesn't necessarily have anything to do with restoration, although there's a restoration story during this episode, which I think most of you will get a kick out of. So here we go. Wow. How many of you have listened to the Head Hardened Boots podcast? I can't tell you that. React. How much that means to us. Welcome back to the headheart and Boots podcast. I'm Chris. And I'm Brennan. Join us as we wrestle with what it takes to transform ourselves and the businesses we lead. This new camera angle makes my arms look smaller than yours. I'm noticing that and I really appreciate it. I thought you did that on purpose. No, I. I don't. I didn't, and I. I am not happy with it. Welcome Back to the Headheart and Boots podcast. I'm here today with Mr. Les Gutjes, and, uh, this is actually the first time that Les and I have really hung out. We see each other at the gym probably at least two, three times a week randomly. But what Les doesn't maybe know as much of the story is just how much I followed his college wrestling career. Les was a superstar at the time, and I'm from Corvallis. Les was wrestling at Oregon State University, and so a bit of a hometown hero, I guess you could say. Which is probably weird for him to hear out loud, but it is what it is. He was all over the local newspapers for years while he was wrestling at osu and then went on to be a competitive wrestler at all the levels. And so I think many, many people in Corvallis know his name. But what's interesting about you is that you've. You've gone on to have a very eclectic business career in addition to athletics. So I wanted to have you in just to talk about your owner's kind of journey through various investments. You have a number of active investments right now, between property and a gym and some other stuff that I'm sure we'll talk about, but I want to just start with you talking about your story a little bit. Like, coming up, what was your childhood like? I'm always curious, too, and just, you can go as deep as you want, or we can keep it as surface as you want. But I. I'm always curious about mom and dad relationship and, like, what do you feel like you took from mom or dad or both? That. That started to kind of set you up on the path you're on. And, and, and inevitably, for most of us, there's some positives and negatives like there. Inevitably, we learn from our childhood. Okay. I learned that I definitely don't want to do this, and I definitely want to make sure I do that. You know what I mean? So, yeah, take us back. I mean, Southern Oregon, boy. Right. Walk us into what early life was.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, uh, I was born in Medford, Oregon, but my family lived in Rogue river slash Weimer, which is even further out than Rogue River.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So pretty far out. Dad worked at a lumber mill really early on, and mom stayed home and took care of the boys. There were three boys. I was the oldest of three. Was interesting.

Speaker A: Wow. So mom stay at home, Mom.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Dad's at the mill every day. What does he do at the mill? Just work. Working the chain. Green chain. Like, don't even know I was a

Speaker B: kid because it wasn't too long. Maybe I was five, six, seven. I don't know. Dad got a job at the fire, and that was. That was a really great thing for him and our family. But just to back up, my mom, she got very sick when I was probably five. Uh, she developed severe brittle diabetes when she had my youngest brother. Wow. And it wasn't gestational diabetes. It was just a really weird freak deal. But her pancreas died, and mom was a lot of things, but she wasn't a structured, disciplined person.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, uh, diabetes, you've got to be on top of it. She was sick a lot, and she was in the hospital, man. I'd say three or four months a year. Wow. You know, and dad was working at the fire department, and, you know, he's working 24 hour shifts. And so we grew up fast. Yeah.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker B: We learned how to take care of each other, the three boys. And we're. We're still really close and. Yeah. Uh, but, yeah, it was. It was an interesting childhood. And not. It was really hard at times. I mean, mom was sick or. You know, I remember having to administer insulin when I was six years old.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: Uh, walking me through it on the phone, taking her blood sugar, matching it on the strip. And. Okay, it says this. Are you sure it says that? Yeah, I'm sure it says that. Okay.

Speaker A: Poking a syringe into Mom.

Speaker B: Yeah. Because she was. Yeah, she, uh, was not. Not conscious or coherent. And, uh, there are two types of insulin. Back in the day, they had RNH and something else. But one was really fast acting. One Was long. And if you. If you got them wrong, oh, man, it was really bad.

Speaker A: That's intense. Yeah.

Speaker B: So dad walking me through it and, okay, take this much up, take that much up, and, you know, she's not better in half hour, let me know. Give me a call. Yeah. So anyway, it was. We grew up quickly, but, man, my mom, when. When she wasn't sick, she was the most fiercely loyal person. I mean, she's the kind that if you called her and said, hey, Mom, I killed somebody, she'd say, okay, I'll get the boys and the shovels. I'll be.

Speaker A: That's right. We're gonna handle this together, son.

Speaker B: Yeah. No, just as an example. Right? I mean, she. It didn't matter. She was. Yeah, she was on your side. And dad, man, he just, by example, showed me what hard work was. I mean, that guy, you know, he worked the fire department on his days off, he would. He was always doing something. You know, he was driving truck. And a little bit later, he started, you know, building sheds. And then that grew into him eventually being a general contractor and building houses, you know, in his days off. And, yeah, uh, he was always working. And so I had a great example there. And. Yeah. So, you know, I guess, uh, one day when I was five years old, I was going through my. Like, a box of stuff. We had one of these cardboard boxes, banker's box, whatever it was, and a bunch of pictures in there, random things. You know, Dad's student ID Card when he went to Southern Oregon. And I came across the wrestling medal, maybe a trophy. I forget what it was.

Speaker A: And at that point, you weren't wrestling yet. So this is six, seven years old.

Speaker B: Yeah. Six, seven years old.

Speaker A: Yeah. Okay.

Speaker B: And I asked my mom what it was, and she said, well, it's a wrestling medal. Ask your dad. And so dad gets home that night, and I can't wait to ask him, how do I get one of these? Uh, cool. Yeah. And so he shakes the sawdust out of his pants, and we move the couch cushions off the couch onto the floor, and he shows me a double leg takedown or a single leg takedown. And I think he even showed me a cradle, which I don't think I ever executed in 20 some years of wrestling, but. Yeah, and so that's kind of how I got started. And we, uh, went to the local mat club, and, you know, I was pretty successful from the start. I had an aptitude for it. Um, when you have some success at something, you want to have more and more. Yeah. So it Just kind of took off from there. I also had an uncle, my Uncle Kent, because the. Just kind of the nature of the family. And he lived in Medford or near Medford and Medford had some great wrestling. I spent a lot of time with him at his house and going to Crater practices and Eagle Point practices. And the thing that he did for me, it was really interesting in retrospect. When I was in grade school, he took me to the. It's scenic high school. It feeds Crater High School, which was a powerhouse in wrestling. He takes me to the. The junior high practices. Well, I get the living hell beat out of me. I mean, I am. I'm crying halfway into it.

Speaker A: These country boys are giving it to you, huh?

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, it was just. It was bad. I mean, I'm. I'm a third grader wrestling these seventh and eighth graders and just. I think it was a junior high even so probably some ninth graders. I mean, I was just getting pounded, but I just kept coming back and coming back. And my uncle's pretty hardcore. He's done the Iron man several times. He was bow hunter of the year in Oregon. Like, wow. Super hard worker. Actually, he got a knee replacement last year at. I think he's 62 and he's doing an ironman here in a couple months. Right.

Speaker A: Geez.

Speaker B: At least considering it. Yeah. Uh, but yeah, you know, so I just get the hell beat out of me and, you know, just. You just kind of start figuring it out. It's like, okay, I'm not as mature, so I have to have better technique and better position and I, I have to understand the sport better. And not that at third grade you're really thinking in those terms, but you have to adapt.

Speaker A: Yeah. How much do you think that actually impacted you? Like, uh, to me, I'm hearing, holy cow, that must have made it to where by the time you got to junior high and you're wrestling people of yourself, you were so far ahead because of getting throttled by these upperclassmen. As a third grader, would you feel like that was a pretty formative.

Speaker B: Well, yeah, Experience. That was just the beginning because once I could hang, you know, fourth or fifth grade or sixth grade with the junior high kids. Yeah, well, my uncle wasn't satisfied unless I left practice crying. And so he took me to the high school practices. So I'd go to Eagle Point High School.

Speaker A: And when you were still eight or ten years old.

Speaker B: Uh, no, I would have been fifth, sixth, seventh grade.

Speaker A: Okay. Maybe 11, 12. Wrestling high schoolers. Yeah.

Speaker B: Eagle Point High school, that was. They were also a powerhouse at the time. And, I mean, I still have nightmares of some of those workouts because, you know, I was like, 105 pounds, and so I'm wrestling these 120 pounds, you know, state champions, and it was just bad.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: But again, you know, you kind of just keep coming back to the center of the mat. You keep coming back and make some adjustments and get better. And next thing you know, you're in eighth grade and you're crushing with these guys. Yeah. Uh, you know, and then, you know, when. When you start to be able to hang with the high school kids and you're a freshman in high school. Well, guess what? We're going to go to Southern Oregon University, and we're going to. Who would. They had several national championship teams.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: And, um, you're going to train with them and see what you're made of. Wow. And so really hard to start with. Right. Because, I mean, this is just no fun. I mean, wrestling when you get beaten, it's just not like in points, it's. You get physically beaten. Oh, yeah, that was what it was. You know, I was at the next level before I got there, and then I jumped to the next level and the next level, and it was interesting because. Let's see, it was my junior year in high school. I go to a Southern Oregon dual meet, and I see this guy in the corner. I mean, he looked like a silverback gorilla. And I start looking, I'm like, oh, my God, that's Mark Schultz. Mark Schultz is an Olympic champion. World champion, uh, possibly. I mean, one of the most athletic wrestlers to ever step on a mat.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And, uh, like, if you watch the movie Fox Catcher. Yeah, he's. Yeah, he's.

Speaker A: He's a similar size to you, right? Didn't he. He wrestled light heavyweight or.

Speaker B: Yeah, he was. I. I think it was 180.5 was the weight class. That's about what I was at the time. Time.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so, you know, I go up and I. Oh, my God. You know, Mark Schultz, you're my hero. Great to meet you. Goes, huh, huh. Who are you with less sketches I read about. You think you're pretty tough. Uh, he goes, you know, we should work out. I said, well, absolutely. So that. That was super formative because, I mean, he. He is one of the most scary people I have ever had hands on. I mean, he is. And he was just off the Olympics. Uh, I think his last Olympics was 88, and this was in maybe 90. I mean, just so Good for me. And it was, you know, after that it just doesn't get any worse on a wrestling mat. And so that was just kind of the story of my career is just always just pushing the envelope. Yeah, a lot, I guess.

Speaker A: Well, and it sounds like your Uncle Frank, right? Like Kent, Kent, sorry, Kent. Kent had a pretty formative role in that. Like, was he following your career and like your, uh, up through high school too? Was he a big influence in terms of, hey, you should be doing this, you should like that kind of thing.

Speaker B: Oh yeah. Kent and my dad were, I guess my, my coaches had coaches too. But uh, you know, they, they'd hop in the car and we go to Coos Bay to the tournament that weekend. And the next weekend if dad was off on a four day, he'd take me to Klamath Falls and we'd wrestle. And, and they like to do this thing which is you can't really do now is, you know, we go to a tournament and they say, okay, your 11 year old. I don't know what I was 80, you know, 90 pounder. Yeah, I was, I was a little bit bigger when I was a kid, I mean relatively, and that's great. But we're only going to get four matches. If you just wrestle 90 or 95, whatever my weight class was at the time. So what we're going to do is we're going to, you're going to do two weight classes. So you'll wrestle the weight class you were in and the next weight class up. And sometimes we would wrestle a third, which was the age group up. I'd go to 13, 14 year olds and wrestle my weight class.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: And so it was a lot of times I was on a wrestling mat and my name would get called because I was up, uh, in another age group or another weight class and I'd have to change my singlet. If I was a different color on the way, you know, they'd hold the match for me. Wow. You know, so I get like 15 matches in and you could do that.

Speaker A: They don't allow that anymore. I'm sure some, somewhere, some do somewhere.

Speaker B: It's not the best thing.

Speaker A: They were probably just like, sure, if you wanna.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I, I remember I was telling somebody this the other day, my uncle, he would, you know, if, if there was a kid like a weight class up, uh, or you know, an age group up or whatever, who I hadn't wrestled, he'd, he'd, he'd find the dad and he would say, hey, after the tournament, let's have an exhibition match. I'll have one of these referees come, come officiate it. I'm like, I just, I just wrestled 10 matches today. I like, I'm good.

Speaker A: Yeah. I'd like a, I'd like a hamburger, actually.

Speaker B: Yeah. And if, if the dad wouldn't agree to it, Kent would find a way to somehow offend him to the point where the other dad was like, oh, yeah, we're gonna wrestle. I'm like, like, you know, really?

Speaker A: So what are you setting me up for? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: So he was, but, you know, he was a guy who, he walked the talk. Like I said, he's, you know, you know, achieved a lot himself. And. Yeah, so that was. Wrestling's a tough sport and you gotta, you gotta get tough if you want to do it.

Speaker A: Boy, is it ever. Well, one of the interesting things about your story back back to the very beginning, a lot of dads who were a successful wrestler would be pushing their sons, you know, to get, oh, you're gonna wrestle. This is what we do in our family kind of thing.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: But that wasn't how it played out. Like you discovered, oh, dad used to be this like, hotshot wrestler. And that inspired you, like, I want some of that. And you approached your dad, was that.

Speaker B: I did, I did.

Speaker A: So he didn't, he didn't cajole or like push you boys to necessarily get into that whole wrestling path?

Speaker B: No, no. And, and, you know, eventually might he have. I don't know, but my dad did. I remember, like, the best thing he ever did for me because I, I saw this happen with a lot of kids where they'd have some success early on and then, you know, it's expected. And that's a lot of pressure when you're an 11 or 12 year old kid. You know, emotional pressure and stress and wrestling stressful as it is. And so I remember, I don't know how old I was, 11, 12 years old, and I was cracking a little bit, man. I, I didn't, uh, I don't know, I just, man, I'd been three or four time state champion and now it was expected. And there were some tough guys around my weight and, and I said, yeah, you know, hey, dad, I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna take a year off. And he so easily could have said, no, you're not. We've got a lot invested and you're, you're, you know, you could get a scholarship maybe, or whatever, whatever. A lot of dads do.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I've, I, I Saw that play out so many times after this where the kids got pushed and they were doing it for dad, and they felt like they had to do it, and then they burn out. And these kids who were just world beaters in. In the youth level end up kind of fizzling out as high school kids and hate the sport and. Yeah. And dad said, yeah, nope, no problem. But, you know, you're. You're not going to sit on your ass from three to five every day, or, you know, you can either do another sport or you can get some chores.

Speaker A: Yeah, we'll put you to work.

Speaker B: Work. Yeah. Uh, and so I said, okay, well, let's just do the chore route. And so. And it wasn't punitive, but, I mean, the next day, I think we get about five cords of logs dropped off that need to be split. And so I work on Peck away at that. But what ultimately happened is the first two weeks of the season go by, and, you know, I'm talking to the kids at school, and I hear about, you know, the Jell O treats that the moms were bringing or the Rice Krispie treats, and I hear. I'm thinking, I hear who's winning my weight class? And I'm starting to get pissed.

Speaker A: Like, I could take that guy. Jeez.

Speaker B: Exactly. What am I doing? And so then I went back to my dad and I said, hey, I changed my mind. And that was really pivotal because that was the moment that I started wrestling for me. Right. And maybe I. I had before, but, I mean, that was the point where it's like, no, I want to do this.

Speaker A: Yeah. You were getting a ton of approval from Kent and your dad, and so that was, no doubt fueling some of that, but this was the first time where you had, like, taken a break. Do I really want this?

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And it was so wild. I don't know if it was wise or it just was so busy. It was like, hey, whatever. But, uh, yeah, it just ended up. It was such a pivotal moment, and I. It's funny how we have those inflection points, right? But I look back at that one and think, I mean, that was. That was the best thing he ever could have done for me.

Speaker A: Man, that's such. That's so cool. Yeah. I mean, so like you said, I think fairly atypical, especially when it takes a lot of restraint, because when we're. As parents, all you want is for your kid to have a better life than you. Right? It's like. It's like, I want. I want you to have A good life and everything else. And you start to see talent come out. You're like, uh, oh, that's their path. Like, you recognize these things and it's so easy to just get into a hey, you don't know what's best for you. I know what's best for you kind of mode. Right. That's interesting. Okay, so you crush in junior high, you go into to high school, you've already been training with all the high school guys and you crush. In fact, I think I read somewhere that you were. I think you were undefeated in high school.

Speaker B: Uh, no, not quite. So what, what happened is my, my freshman year, I mean, I was good. I was really good. But my freshman year, I was kind of a doughy 157 pounder. And there was some straight up men like, you know, from Burns, they're grinding

Speaker A: their beard into the back. Yeah.

Speaker B: Seriously, like have tattoos and kids in the stands.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So. But at any rate, you know, I think I was district champion, but then I went to state and ran, uh, into a couple studs. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So then the spring of my freshman year in high school, there's another inflection point in my life and, and one that you would think it's funny how kind of some of the negative things in life end up being the biggest blessings ever. So I'd wake up in the middle of the night and I. I'm disoriented and I'm over my dad's shoulder. Our house had started on fire. My family's in the lumber business. My grandpa was a lumber broker. So the every stitch of this house exposed wood beams, wood panel, you know, tongue and groove.

Speaker A: It's a tinder box.

Speaker B: Oh, my God. Yeah. Right. Wow. Uh, and so it starts on fire. It was those little click roller switches in like a china cabinet. Click, click, click. It shorted out. It was against the dry.

Speaker A: Yeah. Wood.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So dad's able to get the two boy, you know, my two younger brothers and my mom out the front. And by the time he comes back and gets me, I'm asphyxiated by the smoke. I would have died. Wow. No doubt about it. And so he puts me over his shoulder. Can't make it out of the front door. And so we have to go through kind of a back entrance that we never used. It was one of those aluminum sliding glass doors.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because it's never been used. And all the pine needles from the trees around the house had, you know, jammed.

Speaker A: Can't.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah. It's like. And dad Was a strong guy. I think he was a 400 pound plus bencher and. But you know, he did one of these, you know, people lift cars off people like. Yeah, I mean you'd have a hard time demoing that with demo equipment.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So he, he somehow gets it open, ripped it off the track and by this time, you know, I've been low enough on the ground that I'm like, okay, what's, what's going on? And so we start making our way out and at that point I remember, I look back and the three skylights, you know, just the, the fuel that we gave it, opening up that, that door. Oh man, they blew. It's like three chimneys of flames and it, it's just going up, right? And so, uh, a funny aside, dad says, you know, I'm in my tighty whities, right? Um, and he says, hey, run up to Grandpa's. It's about a quarter half mile away, call 91 1. And so I tear off across the field barefoot. And I didn't know grandpa had moved the disc out in the field in my path. And I've been looking at the fire, right? So my eyes, at any rate, I had a high speed meeting with that disc and rolled off of it and went up and we called 91 1. But by the time they got there, it was to the ground. And the reason I tell this story is so then we moved to Grants Pass temporarily. The insurance company put us up and I was within walking distance of a gym. There was a guy there named Ron who was a bodybuilder and he kind of took me under his wing and said, hey, if you want to meet here every day, uh, we'll meet up. And you should be. Go get yourself some protein and take that every day and eat as much as you can and mix it with ice cream. All the. Eat a bunch.

Speaker A: All the bodybuilders. Oh yeah, gains.

Speaker B: And so I did that. And over that summer, I went from 157 pound kid to 195 pound. Man, it was like it was just at the right time, right? You know, I was just that point where. And that's why I tell kids you have to be consistent with your lifting because you never know when that's going

Speaker A: to hit, when it's going to hit,

Speaker B: but when it does, I've been telling

Speaker A: my boy about this.

Speaker B: You want to be. So once I became 195 pound guy with abs and you know, I was strong, well, the beauty of that was I'd had to make up for not being strong, not being as fast. I developed good technique, and it's kind of tricky. And had good hips. Well, now I had the strength and power and the speed and the intimidation

Speaker A: factor, too, coming in with that build. Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. So that's kind of really where, um, I jumped to the next level. Won three state titles at South Medford. Wow. Didn't, uh, give up a takedown my last three years. And. Yeah. Uh, then went to Oregon State.

Speaker A: Wow. Now. Now Oregon State. So you went on Oregon State, but also, didn't you have. Ohio was chasing you, like another huge wrestling school?

Speaker B: Oklahoma State.

Speaker A: Oklahoma State.

Speaker B: Um, yeah, I took a few different visits, but, yeah, I definitely could have went to Oklahoma State, and they'd been national champions.

Speaker A: And why osu? Just because, you know, home state.

Speaker B: Like, I actually had signed with Oklahoma State. I signed the letter of intent, gave it to my mom and said, hey. Well, actually, I called the coach at Oklahoma State and said, hey, I'm going to sign. And he goes, great. Do you want me to send somebody to get it? Like, that's the silliest thing I've ever heard. The biggest waste of money. I, uh, don't know. I'll just put it in the mail.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Okay. And so I gave it to my mom. I said, hey, put this in the mail. And I slept on it. Woke up the next morning. Have you sent that yet? Nope. I went and tore it up. And fortuitously, maybe an hour later, the Oregon State coach called, and the Oregon coach called, and I just decided my support system was there. I'm an Oregon boy. You know, it. I just. I thought I could do it here.

Speaker A: Yeah, well, clearly you did. So your whole career at Oregon State was storied. I mean, it was just, uh. Did you. I. I don't think you had a loss.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I'm, uh. You're giving me too much credit. Somebody asked me what my record was. I said, you know what? I don't know, but I know I had 10 losses, and those were my. I had eight my freshman year, I was up a weight. And in my sophomore year, it was. I had a bad NCAA tournament. I'd beaten everybody. And, you know, just. Just, uh, had a. Had a tough tournament, but, yeah, then I came back and won one two national titles, which isn't bad. Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah. Not bad at all. Right. And had a run at the Olympics and so forth. I'm curious, like, during this time, you think about disciplines and kind of your lifestyle development. I mean, you're playing at a very, very high level. In wrestling, what did your discipline look like? Because I think this was probably a differentiator for you, if I had to guess between you and a lot of your, your opponents. But what did your discipline, your eating, your training look like when you were in practice and outside of practice? Like.

Speaker B: Yeah, I guess for me, you know, I grew up seeing my dad work really hard. You know, my entire family, they're a bunch of blue collar, hard working folks and I'd worked in the mill and, and helped in construction and I knew that, not that I did. I mean that's, those are great professions and, and yeah, uh, it's an honest day's work, but I didn't want to pull green chain. And so, you know, for me that was how I was going to get my education. Right. And so initially it was not, um, life or death is a pretty strong analogy. But I mean it was very important. It was very important because I wanted to get my degree. I wanted, you know, to create some type of future for myself. And that's just kind of what you did then. Yeah, uh, you get a degree and you know that that is maybe going to lead to something good, of course. And you know, so, uh, initially it was that, but pretty quickly also it was, you know, hey, I'm, I've got a chance to really do something here and, and not a lot of money in wrestling, but I could make a little bit of money and you know, who knows, it may set me up for something. So it was, there was a component of it that I just want to see how good I can be. But there was also a component. This is, this is an opportunity for me. Yeah. Uh, and I want to see where it leads. Yeah. Uh, and so to your point, yeah, you got to do everything right because you know, I mentioned it earlier, wrestling, if you fail, there's literally they put a spotlight on the mat, right? Yeah.

Speaker A: Ah.

Speaker B: And there's you and one other person and everybody is watching that match. There is just nowhere to hide. And so you can start to get pretty disciplined when you know that if you don't do everything right, you don't eat right. Yeah, I did all of it. You know, we got up in the morning and we'd lift weights and drill and run in the morning and you know, you eat the right things during the day. And I'd even bring a rice cooker and cans of tuna with me on wrestling trips because, you know, we wouldn't maybe the right food. And so, yeah, I mean, you, there, there comes a point where you're Just like I am going to do every single thing in my power to.

Speaker A: To enhance my chances. Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, and really, that's where confidence comes from. Right? I mean, everybody thinks confidence, this magic thing that, you know, people just. Some people have it and some people don't. I. I've. I've experienced it firsthand. I remember being in a match my junior year, wrestling the guy from Iowa in Carver Hawkeye arena in Iowa, in the semifinals of the national tournament. Big match. And this guy was good. And I remember I had screwed up the match a little bit tactically. I got convinced to wrestle his match, and I'd had a couple close place. Uh, you know, I was close to scoring a couple times, just didn't nail it down. And, man, next thing I knew, the score was tied or we were in overtime. I forget which. And I remember going out of bounds, and I was exhausted. The crowd was wearing on me. It was just deafening. This guy had some momentum. I felt this pressure because I was undefeated. And I remember going out of bounds and thinking, man, I just. I want to let up. I don't. I don't know if give up's right word, but I'm just. I just felt a little bit defeated. Uh, and I had that thought for just a split second, and there was this thing that clicked in or just in my mind, said, no way. I remember all the stitches. I remember all the times. Throwing up in the trash can. I remember all the times. I mean, just all the blood, sweat, and tears. Yeah, right. And at that point, I made up my mind. I said, no, I'm going to figure out a way to get this done. And I went back to the center of the mat, and I figured out how to get it done. And confidence comes from being prepared.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And knowing that you put the work in, knowing that you didn't leave a stone unturned, that you did everything humanly possible to prepare for this moment, and no different business doing a business deal. But it's. It's, uh. That's the mindset.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I was. I forget who I was listening to. I don't know if it was. It was an MMA thing, ufc. I feel like it was maybe Jorge Masvidal, actually, now I think about it. Somebody asked him, are you afraid when you go in? And he. And he referenced what you talk about. He's like, look, when you lose in a fighting sport, it is the height, potentially, depending on how you decide to frame it. It's the most humiliating thing, because there is no. Like, your performance was out there. In front of every, Everybody got to saw every move you made, good or bad. And there's also like the physical implications of it. Like you can, you can get hurt in combat sports, obviously. But he just talk, he reflect on the same thing. He's like you. The confidence comes from. I believe I've worked harder. I put more in than the uh, guy across the ring from me. And that's really the only thing that gives you confidence, is what you've done to prepare for this moment and to what degree.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: That's interesting. Let me ask you one other question about the wrestling career then. I got some questions about business and things I want to cover. But you spent the vast majority of your career winning. How did you not become sort of an arrogant prick? You know, I mean, like when somebody spends so much of their career, I mean high school, you had three years of just like domination and of course you worked for it. It wasn't as though that was handed to you. And same with college. I mean, you're putting in the effort and the work. Were there times in your life that were humbling in particular ways that kept you kind of grounded and able to. Or, or what was that like for you? Sort of that journey to humility and whatnot? Because I experience you now. I mean, just, you know, we're, we're sitting here having a normal conversation. But was that ever a struggle for you?

Speaker B: Like, no. I mean, uh, some people present themselves that way. Some people present them, you know, selves as arrogant for a reason. Right. I mean, sometimes they want to project that. Sometimes maybe people actually feel that way. But I didn't have to look back far. I could look back to those middle school and junior high practices and I was definitely taught some humility. And I was taught that there's always somebody tougher on a given day. And um, and I don't know, I, I didn't, you know, I didn't want to give anybody a. I wouldn't want to give somebody a reason to be more motivated than they already were. Running my mouth or, or whatever.

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Speaker B: I'm glad I didn't wrestle in the year of social media.

Speaker A: Oh, uh, man.

Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know, it's just, you know, some of it's just who you are. That's not me. Yeah, uh, you know, I mean, you know, I'm at him, at the gym. You know, I see some people, you know, if they're on a machine and, and somebody, you can tell somebody wants to use it, right. Where you're both going for the machine at the same time or whatever. A bench. I always take the, you know, the attitude of, look, I can do anything, go for it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Or hey, I can see you. I. In this thing you're working through, have at it. I'm gonna go do something else. I'll come back to it. Right. Uh, you know, so I just, that's just, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I don't. Yeah. Uh, to the arrogance thing.

Speaker A: No, that's good. All right, so you have this, you have this whole career in wrestling, go up to the Olympics. I, I, uh, think, you know, you also had some time, you spent training mma, you've been a coach, you worked for the US Wrestling Federation and working with young people and Kind of following on your path that you came. So you've had all this involvement in wrestling, but at some point you. Well, I think I got a timeline screwed up there. You finished school, you end up becoming a commercial loan officer. So that leads then later into a wrestling career. But today, let's speed up to today. So today, what do you do for a living? How's your life oriented right now?

Speaker B: Kind of hard to explain it. Yeah, I'm involved in several different businesses and business ventures. You know, some operating businesses, some, um, more real estate based. And in general, I do the same thing for all of them. I do kind of the finance piece, setting up operation systems, risk management, insurance, which more and more is becoming very important.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Getting more expensive, you know, bookkeeping and preparing the tax returns to the extent that I hand them over to the accountant and you know, every business I do something, uh, along those lines. But I also play some other roles too.

Speaker A: I'm curious on this finance side. So that's kind of your wheelhouse that you bring to your business ventures. I imagine you've looked at a lot of businesses to buy or companies or properties to buy when you look at business financials. And you did a ton of it when you were at, uh, Citizens. Right. Lending lines of credit, I'm sure, uh, stuff like that. What would you say, just like top of mind, what are the most common mistakes or blind spots for most business owners when it comes to the financials of their business and how they're operating financially?

Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, and just to back up, it's interesting, my son is, and I think this is valuable. Yeah. Uh, my son, he's 18, he's getting ready to graduate and he's getting ready to start getting some jobs because he's been in sports and. But you know, he's going to have to start to enter the workforce to some extent, summer jobs, part time. And what I told him is I said, bud, don't just rent yourself out. Every job that you get, you need to get something else out of it Might be that you have a terrible boss and you learn what you don't want to do or you have a boss that does some things really well, or you have a business, you work the front desk of a hotel, you get to learn a little bit about the hospitality business and how that works. You get a job in retail and, you know, start to look at how it runs and what the margins are in the system and. Yeah. Uh, you know, so whatever you do, don't let it use you. Yeah. Uh, I mean, do a great job and leave it better than you found it. But you use it too. Yeah, uh, I'm probably not framing. Using is is the wrong word. Just make sure you get something out of it, of course, into doing a good job.

Speaker A: Harvest something as much as you can out of that opportunity. Yeah, that's right.

Speaker B: And for Citizens Bank, I mean, they gave me a great opportunity. I mean, I went from wrestling coaching and being in this situation where I had a lot of esteem and a lot of respect and, you know, I took an entry level position at Citizens Bank. Them taking a chance on me was. It was probably just an interesting experiment to them. Let's see what happens. Yeah, but, uh, but man, it was the best thing I ever did because I looked at financials, uh, and don't get me wrong, I hated it at the time.

Speaker A: Really?

Speaker B: Well, I mean, it's just so tedious.

Speaker A: Just boring.

Speaker B: So tedious.

Speaker A: Looking at P Ls and balance sheets.

Speaker B: Balance sheets and so in tax returns and. But I mean, I did that eight hours a day and you start to learn what works and what doesn't.

Speaker A: Uh, it's a Street MBA right there.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it was funny. A lot of the really wealthy folks, you know, they, they did a couple of things. One, they didn't get divorced. And two, they took a chance during the savings and loan crisis. Uh, and that was really instructive for me. And they, they all had some story of, man, you know, everybody was running out of the market with a hair on. Their hair on fire. They thought it was never going to come back. And I said, the hell with it. Put a down payment on something. And you know, it really was the beginning of something big for them. You know, they were the people who were the big players.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But at any rate, that was a really. I got so much out of that. Uh, and you know, from a couple different perspectives. One is understanding of financial statements, but the other is, okay, you're super successful, at least financially. Yeah. How'd you do it? Yeah, and people like to talk about it.

Speaker A: Obviously you would ask people that. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: And most people want to chat, if you're interested. Genuinely. So anyway, in my opinion, the thing that a lot of folks don't pay enough attention to is the balance sheet. You know, a lot of people grow themselves broke. They say, oh, if I double my business, I'll make twice as much. Well, you need twice as much working capital too. And you know. Yeah, that's one of the classic mistakes. But yeah, I would say just managing the Balance sheet, because we tend to just look at the profit and loss and.

Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. But, uh, top line, bottom line, right? Yeah. Okay, so go back, go back, though, because you're, you're asking these rich people, you're starting to see some patterns, but you're also engaging them and, hey, wow, you're really successful. What? Give me some. Give me some tips. Give me some. What. What kind of stuff were you learning and hearing from these. I imagine some of these clients became friends. You're probably still.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Connected to someone. Maybe you've done business with some of them since. What were some of the other things that they were teaching you or telling you?

Speaker B: Yeah, it sounds ridiculously simple. They took a chance when other people were fearful. Yeah, right. I mean, it's at the very core of it. You know, I brought up the savings loan thing. I mean, that was, that was a

Speaker A: theme, a recurring theme.

Speaker B: Yeah, it really was. And real estate was a recurring theme.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, you know, you look at a dental practice and, and you'll think, man, that, you know, they must be making a lot, a lot of fillings, a lot of root canals. They're making cash. They're really making cash on the tax efficiency of owning the real estate and the principal pay down over time, the benefits of, you know, depreciation and, you know, all those ancillary benefits of, of building wealth through owning real estate. You know, so you'd start to see, okay, yeah, they're a doctor or they're, you know, they're a dentist or whatever they are.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But, man, a lot of their net worth on this balance sheet, it's in real estate.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So. And it's not the only way to do it, but. But, um, yeah, I'd like to hear what chance did they take and how calculated was it and how'd they do it and how did they use debt? How'd they use leverage? What's their philosophy on that? And that was really interesting. I had the benefit, and I mean, it was kind of a miserable time to be in banking, but 2008, 2009, 2010, man, there were some younger kids who were in the trades.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, and they're buying vans and they're buying equipment and they are growing. Right. Because, uh, the real estate ecosystem was booming.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: The economy, you know, they're, you know, NINJA loans and all that good stuff.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, and so they're scaling, man, and you know, and you're, you're kind of watching that going, man, they're, they're really successful. And then you Talk to maybe somebody who was 50 or so who'd been through a couple cycles. They're like, yeah, if I'm growing, it's slow. I'm paying cash for things.

Speaker A: I'm sitting tight right now.

Speaker B: These things don't last forever. You know, fast forward a couple years. You're like, that dude was wise. Yeah. You know, because, you know, wisdom, it's. It's not just intelligence, it's experience.

Speaker A: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: You have to have, you know, experience plus intelligence is wisdom and, and, um, you know, so you just learn. A lot of, you know, people have paid tuition and sometimes you get to be. To learn from that.

Speaker A: He said another theme was don't get divorced. And man. Right. I mean, how many of us have seen examples of people just splitting their life earnings in half or worse, starting over following a divorce? So you've been married, same wife the whole time. So you've managed to follow that, uh, advice. What would you say as you were building your career and starting to build a family and stuff? How did you manage, like, how did you manage this? Knowing this, like, there's this motivation behind you. Like, most of the successful people I'm seeing that have accumulated a lot of wealth, they. They stick to their same wife. They don't get divorced. Of course, most of us, we start having kids. That's where life starts to get really hard. That's where marriage starts to get really hard. What was that season like for you and your wife? And how did you guys manage all these pressures? Because you've got this dad you grew up with. It's like super hard worker and an uncle, Like a whole family around you that's like, you know how to work. But then I think a lot of us too, end up. Our work ethic ends up at least getting balanced or softened by this pull that I need. I have this relationship. I, uh, also got to be a dad. What was that season like for you? Early days.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, you know, it's not just not getting divorced. I mean, obviously this is somewhat part and parcel, but it's picking the right partner. Yeah. Ah, right. Yeah. And, you know, I'd like to say that I, I had this, you know, it was this calculation, and there's a formula to it, but some of it is I just got really lucky. Um, you know, and so my wife Jennifer, when we bought our first rental and on Lyon street in Albany, it needed a lot of work. Needed a lot of work. It was bad.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But I'd grown up doing some remodeling with my dad. And Jennifer's a roll your sleeves up type woman.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so I remember, speaking of kids, we just had our first child. She's in a car seat. We'd pull up after work at citizens. It's, uh, 5:30. We'd hit home Depot on the way out. We got in the countertop material or the tile or whatever it was, filters for vacuum. And the three of us would roll up, we park, we put. Put the baby in another room and make sure that it was a good environment and dust. And we'd work until 1 in the morning. And then, you know, you'd go home and. And do it again for, you know, a month or two and until you got the place cleaned up and can run it up. And, uh. And we did that together. And just as an aside, one time our dryer broke down and I said, well, let's just go to Best Buy and get another one. She said, uh, let me. I come home, she'd been on YouTube and she had the dryer apart, had went down and gotten the heating element it needed. Yeah. Uh, and got that thing back together. It ran for another four years. And, I mean, just not many did. Not many.

Speaker A: For the religious people listening, this is my, like, religious upbringing. She sounds like a Proverbs 31 woman. Right. That's, like, always resourceful and, like, uh, you know, selling and doing deals and, uh. So it sounds like that kind of woman.

Speaker B: She's really into it, you know. That's important, too. I mean, we have, I would say, in most cases, 100% aligned.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: You know, on what we're doing and where we're going.

Speaker A: You know, listen, I think sometimes you can tell when people are, like, genuinely connected. And I see. I just observe these things. I see you guys at the gym. Just the, uh, body language, the way you guys look at, you know, just all that. And it's just obvious you guys have a special connection, that you guys still like each other and. Oh, uh, that's really cool. Okay, so, commercial loan officer. You're learning a ton about business. You're seeing patterns. When did you decide to. Well, so you had rentals. You started dabbling in some of this investment stuff. But at what point did you start investing in other companies and other, like, commercial properties? Uh, when did you kind of take the next step into other stuff?

Speaker B: Yeah, everyone was kind of accidental, I'd say, in ways. I mean, I think the first operating business I was involved in was, um, a gym south of town here. And, uh, my business partner, Jeff. Maggie, great man. He's given me a ton of opportunity. You know, we've done a lot of business together, a lot of trust, you know, I. But, uh, we. We'd done some deals. And he's really into volleyball and coaches a volleyball club there and really successful club.

Speaker A: Yeah, I remember hearing that. Yeah.

Speaker B: And, uh, he comes to me and he's this guy who has a vision. He's what I call a gas pedal. He likes to do deals. He fails forward. You know, he's super optimistic. Rolls his sleeves up and gets started on things now. Right. You know, so he comes to me with this vision. A gym, you know, a couple miles out of town. You know, I'll admit I wasn't really seeing it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But I didn't want to cherry pick deals. I mean, you can't. You know, we're partners. Yeah. Ah. So let's do it.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And so, you know, given my role in things, I, you know, I figured out how to run a gym. You know, real estate's pretty easy. It's an asset and got some bills that come through. But when you get an operating business, it's different. Oh, yeah. Right. And, uh, I have to say, I. Well, and the gym's been, I would say, very successful. You know, it's been a lifestyle for him and, you know, super, super cool thing for all of us, you know, So I kind of learned that. Well, then we bought a day spa, of all things. I know way more about a back bar.

Speaker A: Oh, I know what spa you're talking about. Yeah. Here in town. Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, we had that for a while, and now we. We rent chairs, which is better for everybody.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: People want to run their own business and, you know. Yeah. You have tenants as opposed to employees. Yeah, you know, we did that for a while, and that was another. That was a different type of business.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: A lot more employees and. And so that was fun to learn and. And why we bought the spa. I. You know, I still really have to think about that. I. I couldn't tell you what triggered.

Speaker A: You bought the building that that spa was in. Right. We talk about the place on 9th Street.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But it was. It was in. Oh, gosh, there was a bookstore there on. And now Samaritans there. I forget.

Speaker A: Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: So it was there.

Speaker A: There's a family that started it.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it was there. And then, uh, we bought it and operated the business there for a while. And then back to. Best way to make money in a business is doing the real estate. You know, Jeff spotted that property and on, uh, 9th Street. And we built that out, but, um, it was kind of by accident, but. Cool, right? Like, I get to learn something new. And then you fast forward. I'm sitting around in Colorado Springs, and we had made great friends with some of our neighbors. And this guy, he's a gas pedal, too. His name's Brent. And, uh, Brent's a Silver Star Special Forces. You wouldn't know it, but. Yeah, I mean, he's. He's a really accomplished guy. Really, really cool guy. Knows how to make money. We're sitting around and he's in the liquor business, so who knows? We're probably drinking some whiskey. I'm just picking his brain a little bit. I said, how do you. How do you manage, you know, your accounts payable and what kind of terms do you get? And, you know. Oh, you get credits from vendors for things. How do you manage that? And. And not that he. He's a great business person, but, uh, he knows how to buy low, sell high, get every cent out. But I was asking some questions. He's like, well, what do you think? What do you do? Uh, you know, why do you ask? And. And so, you know, in addition to us being friends, I think that he saw that maybe there was an opportunity to have some synergy there, saw some

Speaker A: special knowledge in you.

Speaker B: Well, yeah, I mean, just, you know, maybe just complimentary skill sets.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And somebody, um, approached him about starting a liquor store in this. This strip mall that was going in. It's kind of got an anchor, like, call it a super Walmart type thing.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: He said, hey, you want to go in on this? And I didn't. I said, absolutely. Right.

Speaker A: So you wanted to work with him, Right?

Speaker B: Yeah. And I mean, I. He's a successful person. He knows the liquor business. And it's funny, I'm going to back up a little bit. One other thing I learned one of the. A really smart guy over at the bank had told me, the best chance you can take on somebody, the best credit risk is somebody who's went bankrupt, uh, because they're not going to do it again.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: If that makes sense.

Speaker A: Yeah, it does. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: And. And Brent didn't go bankrupt, but he had a. He had a liquor store that didn't go well.

Speaker A: Didn't work. Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, and so I knew that he wouldn't get into. And he had a. He had a successful store at the time, you know, so he'd kind of bounced back from that, figured it out. But I knew that if he thinks this is a good deal, It's a good deal. And you know, we did some back of the napkin and you know, so we, we started that business. And that's been a really interesting lesson because it is so. I mean, they're ra. Razor thin margins.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Really volume based. You're buying two or three times a week. And that's a really hard to figure out. But once you figure it out. Yeah. Ah, it's fun. Right. And so I got. Got to learn a high volume, thin margin retail. Retail business and.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So yeah.

Speaker A: That's interesting. Have you expanded? Have you guys opened up other stores?

Speaker B: Yeah, another one.

Speaker A: So you guys building a brand new

Speaker B: Colorado set up in a way where you really can't.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: It's kind of like Oregon technically. My wife owns one of the stores and I own one of the stores.

Speaker A: Oh, gotcha.

Speaker B: And we're partners in those two.

Speaker A: It's sort of like the OLCC thing and kind of.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, probably not exactly. It's. It's pretty regulated, so. Yeah. Uh, it's interesting and I don't know if this has been on purpose. I know it wasn't on purpose, but I figured it out that every successful venture needs a gas pedal, a brake pedal, and a transmission. Um, and it's really hard for one person to be all three. I mean, we've all been with the teenagers learning to drive who have their foot simultaneously on the gas and the brake.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: And I mean, I'm not saying they're not out there, but, you know, in my role in these businesses, I'm a bit of the brake pedal. Yeah. I'm a bit of. Okay, well, the gas pedal just brought. Brought a deal. Well, I, uh, look at it. I pencil it out. Does it still work if it goes 50% over budget and takes us twice as long and you know, are we overestimating the upside? Are we underestimating the downside? Yeah. You know, what's the financing look like? What's the insurance look like? How much expo. You know that that's my role.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. And it's funny because, you know, they'll bring deals and man, I'm just, I'm not seeing it. And not that they couldn't make it work, but you know, they, uh. And we look at it more closely and they go, oh, yeah, I think, yeah, we'll pass on that one.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But, you know, then when we both get together and like, it's funny, you have this moment of clarity where it's like, no matter how hard I try, I can't poke A hole in this.

Speaker A: Yeah. Right. Then, you know, you got the right thing.

Speaker B: It's a. Yeah. And you're still like, God, am I missing something?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But, um. Yeah. And so it's. I need a gas pedal. Because if I didn't have a gas pedal, I wouldn't do many deals.

Speaker A: That's right. You know, you wouldn't be going as many places.

Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. Uh, and then, you know, I talked about the transmission.

Speaker A: Yeah. What is that?

Speaker B: Well, we've really figured that out. And I know it depends on the person, but that's the management. Right.

Speaker A: That's the maintainer.

Speaker B: Yeah. Because I. I'm more of a. Even though I may not be the gas pedal, I'm a builder. I want to build it. I want to set a system up,

Speaker A: a process, move on and build the next thing.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And like, management is. I'm not downplaying management. It's. It's absolutely critical. There's an art to it. Yeah. Uh, but I just can't do it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: You know, if. If the day is the same every day. I mean, now when I'm. When I'm bodybuilding and eating the same thing every day, and I can do that. Right. But I mean, in terms of management, I just. I have a tough time with it. And, uh, what we did in the liquor stores, Brent had a manager who was just a really high performer. Um, he said, man, we should bring this guy in and let him buy in and that. I think that'll work.

Speaker A: He's our transmission.

Speaker B: Yep.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah, man. That sounds good to me. Well, it works so well, because when you have a manager who's thinking like an owner, that is the holy grail.

Speaker A: Oh, man.

Speaker B: Right. Because he knows that every dollar we save, some of that goes in his pocket. Uh, every additional sale we make, some of that goes in his pocket. And that's difficult to do when somebody's not an owner. I mean, you can put together some, you know, compensation schemes and some bonuses, and you can kind of make it work, but, man, there's no replacement for ownership. Find, you know, a manager who thinks like an owner, whether they actually are or not. That's really something.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So anyway, that's.

Speaker A: That's interesting.

Speaker B: That's kind of how I look at it.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's.

Speaker B: It's about surrounding yourself with the right people. And I kind of figured that out from watching wrestling, coaching staffs. It's human nature to want to surround yourself with people who think like you. Yeah. And have the same Philosophy.

Speaker A: Right, right.

Speaker B: Well, in wrestling coaching, that's not a great thing. Right. Because sometimes you need that somebody in the room to stand up and say, uh, have we thought about this? Or whatever, you know.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Because some kids have a problem needs to be solved with hard work and intensity. Some kids have a problem that needs to be solved with technique. Some kids need somebody to talk to.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: Just need some encouragement or something. Yeah.

Speaker B: Rarely is there a person who can do all three. And so I kind of watched this in coaching staffs where the coaches who surrounded themselves with clones of them, uh, weren't as successful, and the coaches who said, yeah, I may not agree with this guy, but he's going to make me better because he's going to shore up an area where I'm not as strong.

Speaker A: Yeah. Uh, that.

Speaker B: Those were the programs that really took off. And I don't know that was necessarily a conscious thing, but I just, you know, for me, that's been a really important part of. And how I've gotten where I am. And by the way, I never have felt successful a day in my life. So I'm not saying, oh, this is how I've gotten where I am. But I'm just saying that, you know, I've had some wins, and those have really come by surrounding myself, uh, with the right people.

Speaker A: So at this point, like, when you look at a deal or an opportunity, is that just a native. Part of your thinking is who's going to be the transmission? Where's the. Where are the different component parts here of the team? And how do we put this together? Or is that. Is that more secondary to just the, uh, financial. The economic unit, the unit. Economics of the thing?

Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, not that I've done a ton of these. Right. But I mean, sometimes you identify, uh, the transmission before you even start.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And. And sometimes you're. You're building the airplane while you're flying.

Speaker A: That's right.

Speaker B: And, you know, it just.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And sometimes things don't work out the way that you thought. And that's a beauty of business. Right.

Speaker A: Adapt and overcome.

Speaker B: Yeah. You got to get up early and you've got to think about it. And. And.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you gotta. Yeah. Just. Just figure it out.

Speaker A: So I feel like I. I remember you and I, in a brief conversation we had several weeks ago or a few months ago, you talked about a damage event that you had at one of your liquor stores. And I was like, oh, this guy. This guy does have a connection to our industry. But. But what was that? I forget didn't you have like a sprinkler system go off or something happen?

Speaker B: Yeah. So the building was pretty old, right? Built in mid to late 70s.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Well, nobody had told us, but they'd had a couple sprinkler heads fail.

Speaker A: Oh, boy.

Speaker B: And that wasn't on our radar.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: You know, get this new store, and it's a big purchase and a lot of down payment and. Yeah. Uh, you know, your, your mind is

Speaker A: thinking, why share that ahead of time to the person who's buying?

Speaker B: There was great people. It's, it's. There was a lot of. It's a big building, right? Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, about three weeks into owning it, I get a call from my business partner, and he said, hey, we've got a flood down at the liquor store and it's bad. Fire departments down here.

Speaker A: Oh, my goodness.

Speaker B: And it's not good. And so, you know, throw some clothes on and go down there. And it's, uh, we have, um, an employee manager. We have an owner manager, and it's, you know, Brent and myself, and we're looking at it and I've got video of it. It's crazy. I mean, it's a big enough building that there's a little bit of, you know, the, the floors a little bit sloped. Yeah. Yeah. Ah. And I mean, there were parts of it that it was, it was up above my shoelaces. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And it's. Now, luckily it, it happened over the, the beer cases where the vendors could come and bring more, you know, cardboard cases and hot glue them shut. But, uh, in retrospect, but I got there and I'm thinking, oh, my God, what did we do? Yeah. And so I look at it, I'm going through the option, you know, like, oh, do we call it Disaster Restoration Company? Which was probably the right thing to do, especially in the context of this.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: But Brent, the gas pedal, he says, we got a couple shotbacks and all

Speaker A: of our listeners are going to get such a kick out of this.

Speaker B: And I'm like, yeah, well, yes, we do.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And I just happen to know how to work hard. At least I think I do. Yeah. And so the four of us, we had, uh, these 35 gallon Rubbermaid trash cans.

Speaker A: Yeah, right.

Speaker B: And we had these 15 gallon shop vacs. And by the way, pretty early in the process, I realized we're all tired and punchy. We had better tie the extension cord where it comes together to the top of a shopping cart so that that doesn't get in the water.

Speaker A: Indeed. Yes.

Speaker B: And so, so we've got these extension cords tied to these shopping carts, and we've got one guy, you know, vacuuming up, you know, 15 gallons, the other guy taking it off, put it in the trash can. And then I'm going back and forth, you know, and I figured it out.

Speaker A: Emptying water.

Speaker B: It was tons of water. I did the math. I, I, you know, estimated how many trips. And we work from midnight until 8 and we open at 10. And it. We've kind of. We've almost got it whipped and I can't believe it. I mean, it's, we have done. It was a herculean effort. Wow. And I'm like, man, how are we going to get the rest of this up? Are we going to mop? Well, the guy who cleans the floors had one of those Zamboni, uh, squeegee behind it.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: And I sucked up another couple hundred gallons of water using that. And, uh, man, we opened up at 10:00am yeah. Uh, didn't lose one sale. Wow. Yeah, we had some soggy beer cases, a few bottles of wine. Sure went, you know, got a little crusty. But, um. And the floors were pretty damn clean.

Speaker A: The cleanest they did three weeks at least.

Speaker B: Under those, under those shelves.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: There are a lot of broken bottles and it doesn't get cleaned.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So that's probably, it was, uh, probably.

Speaker A: Probably a good thing overall, right?

Speaker B: Oh, yeah. But, oh, my gosh, it was. That was. But I mean, again, that's where, like, you got the right people in the room. Yeah. I mean, you got a couple of guys who are willing to work hard and one guy who says, we got some shop vacs.

Speaker A: Well. And probably 10 years from now, you'll be hanging out, you know, you'll be talking to somebody and be like, remember that time? It just makes for a great story. Right? You get through those things.

Speaker B: Yeah. And two, I mean, you know, we've had a couple of hiccups in the business since, and it's like, at least the place didn't flood.

Speaker A: That's right. Exactly. Gives us a good frame of reference for things.

Speaker B: You can bet. Just, just for a rainy day, pun intended. I do have a stick pump and a couple, couple pumps in my garage.

Speaker A: You're more ready than you would have been if you'd not been through that experience. Yeah, it's hilarious. Oh, my gosh. Okay. Last thing. You're a fit dude. I mean, I go in the gym, I feel motivated. When I see your biceps and the giant veins popping at your Biceps, like, talk to us about. Because I think so many business owners start out, look, we have a vision for our life. We want to enjoy our life, not just make money. But a key part of that is health. And I think all of us have watched folks that have burned the candle at both ends just grinded for years and years. In the process, they lose their health. So that by the time they have the money, the time, the freedom to do something, they're really relegated to a lawn chair and an rv and they aren't able to really enjoy the money and the freedom that they put together. And so obviously you've made a different choice. And I'm just curious, like, how do you do that? Because I know just from watching you in college, you've never really let yourself slip. As far as I can tell, there's a discipline that you've maintained. I could be wrong, but like, what, what is that? What has that been like for you as you've kind of transitioned through these different areas of your life, health wise?

Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I'd like to tell you that it's this really hard thing for me to do and that, you know, it's. It's this conscious effort I make. But I mean, really, it became such a habit. Like, I worked out every day.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Uh, I mean, didn't miss a day. I mean, unless you're really sick and you felt bad about it for a couple of weeks that you missed it. But anyway, I mean, it was just such a habit that, I mean, if I don't get a workout, I'm pretty crabby, you know, for, you know, whatever reason. Yeah. You know, kid stuff comes up or whatever. But, and, and for me, it's therapy. You know, I can be stressed out and, you know, I'm had my head down in numbers all day or I'm looking for documentation I can't find, or we're having a hard time with the insurance renewal. Yeah. Ah, go down to the gym and.

Speaker A: Yeah, blow some of that out.

Speaker B: It's never not better. Right. Uh, you know, in my mind, because you, you know, you, you achieve something. I mean, it's one of the few things in life you have control of is, uh, you know, you can't control how a client behaves and what sales are that day. But by God, you can control whether you go to the gym or not and put some work in.

Speaker A: Boy, that's the truth.

Speaker B: And, uh, and I guess I do. You know, you, you kind of touched on it that. I mean, in a way it's hard to be as successful as you can be if you're dealing with health problems.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Right. And so in some ways it's, it's part of the equation too.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So, you know, I think that, you know, it's learning moderation. Right. I mean, yeah, you can have cheap meal and, but I mean, by and large, eat healthy and. Yeah. Uh, go to the gym, make it a priority and get, uh, your cardio in. And I don't do as hard a cardio. I don't do it as intensely as you do, but I should. But yeah, you know, just put the work in. And even that you look at, I mean, almost every study out there says that, you know, leg strength plays a role in longevity big time. Yeah. Uh, you know, so don't skip leg day.

Speaker A: And do you have a certain, like, I mean this, this kind of stuff's just helpful for folks that feel stuck. Right. It's like, what's a good thing for me to just start doing? Because I think we can overanalyze programs. This, do I join a CrossFit gym or whatever. What's, what's kind of your approach to fitness at this stage? I know for me, so I'm 46, I have started to shift my approach a little bit. I was kind of chasing the max bench press and some of that kind of stuff. I've been watching some of my friends who are kind of front runners. They're 48, 50, 52, and many of them are starting to change their goals and to really not just maintain, but they're really thinking more about longevity and protecting their joints and stuff. What does your current workout regimen look like? You mentioned you're 53.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: What, what does that look like on a day to day basis for you?

Speaker B: So I'm going to give you two answers.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: I, I think the first one is for the people who I'm going to talk about lightweight next in case I forget. Yeah. Uh, sometimes forget. But like when somebody's telling me that, oh man, I just, I looked in the mirror and this is it. And you know, I haven't been in the gym in forever and they're, they're all gung ho. I said, okay, let's ratchet it back. It has to be sustainable. Uh, whatever you do has to be sustainable, whether it's your diet and yeah, we can. Sustainability becomes relative once you get something established. But man, if just, if you're going to the gym zero times a week, go two, go two and do that for two or three months, then it's easy to jump to three. But if you start going five or six days a week and you've been going to the not at all. Haven't been that gym at all, then it's such a shock.

Speaker A: Probably not gonna last.

Speaker B: And it's like, oh, God, this is becoming a lot like work and I'm dreading it. I'm at. It has to be sustainable, whatever. And that's life, right?

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: We, as we get older, we get taught.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Speaker B: But, um, you know, so that's. I think the first thing is. Yeah. If you're getting started after being off, you know, or you've never really been a gym goer, then. Yeah. I mean, you know, don't be afraid to get a personal trainer and get a few pointers or go with a friend who knows what they're doing and make sure it's sustainable and, you know, something you can stick to. And then what? Uh, I was going to talk about weight is I'm still able to carry some size, but I really lift relatively light. Uh, and that was a change that I made in the last two or three years because things start to pop you a little peck, tear or, uh, you know, I mean, you want to see something set your training back. Chair quad.

Speaker A: Oh, boy.

Speaker B: Right. And so, you know, the point of this is not being fit and strong now. I mean, yeah, I want to be, but it's when I'm 75.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And so more recently I've. I've really been taking a look at. Okay. Do I really need 250 grams of protein a day? I'm going to dial that back. More sustainable diet. And then, you know, I kind of pride myself in how heavy I can make a lightweight. Uh, Frank Zane was really into that. Right. He said make, uh, a lightweight heavy

Speaker A: and well, in Metzger too. I think Mike Metzger is another one of these bodybuilder guys that's like a one set to failure. Well, yeah, that's lighter wave. One sets failure.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I don't. I'm not.

Speaker A: You're not into that?

Speaker B: No, I don't. Go ahead. Yeah, I think he. Well, I don't know.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But I think he was a heavier guy. He was like, go know, work up to in one side. Dorian Yates. Like what they call it. Well, it doesn't matter. But, um, yeah. So like I said, I.

Speaker A: Focusing on the eccentric.

Speaker B: Yeah. More machines and you know, the other thing. And I'm not. We. I know this isn't a weightlifting podcast, but it's Amazing how many people just go through the motions. Yeah, right. Okay. I'm just doing a bench press. I'm just going to take the weight from here to here. Here to here. Yeah. Well, have you really thought about where your elbows are? And have you really thought about the plane of the bar? And have you really tried to feel the movement? Uh, you're working your chest. Right. And the same as like with back every once in a while. I mean, I think about it a lot, right. I'm, I'm doing a pull down. But if you think about it and become a student of it, it's probably just my nature, you start to realize you're not pulling a weight down, you're taking your elbows to the floor, uh, and you're, you know, you're keeping them in a plane. And you know, when, when you watch somebody and they're, you know, like, God, what are they doing? I, I, I always like, say, hey, just try taking, just concentrate on taking your elbows to the floor or if you're doing rows, elbows to the back. Yeah. Uh, and really feel the movement. I know it sounds crazy. I mean, it's, it's, you know, I'm probably a little fanatical about it, but I really do believe in that, that mind muscle connection, feeling the movement. Every rep's intentional. Yeah.

Speaker A: Uh, and yeah, no, I love that actually. I think that's great. Uh, that's a really easy principle band when you go to a conventional gym. Like, you know, I go to your gym, Timber Athletic Club and, and love it. But boy, there is no shortage of entertaining spectacles every day of people doing the weirdest things. And I think it's just because nobody actually pointed that out to them. Nobody ever, you know, explained to them what to watch for or what to notice. They just, that we see videos and stuff and it's like, oh, I'm going to do lat pull downs and I just pull this bar down and I put as much weight on as I can for 8 to 10 reps. And that's just what they do. And nobody's ever taught them how to notice.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: And to feel what's going on. Uh, but yeah, it's actually a source of great joy for me is watching some of the antics of people in the gym. You and I had. Okay, Elizabeth, we have to share this. This is so.

Speaker B: Don't, don't share it. All right?

Speaker A: You and I both saw a similar spectacle at one point.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, you know, everybody's different. I mean, you know, main thing is if I see somebody doing something that's not safe.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I'm not a big fan of unsolicited feedback, uh, giving it or receiving it, but, uh, if it's not unsafe. Yeah. Teach their own.

Speaker A: Do you. Have you gone up to somebody where you felt like, oh, they're going to hurt themselves or.

Speaker B: It just depends on the situation. I mean, I want to be constructive and.

Speaker A: Sure.

Speaker B: You know, I. I mean, I. Yeah, I mean, I want to be helpful, but, uh, you know, you can tell the folks who are going to be receptive or not, and. Yes.

Speaker A: Ah, yeah, totally. Well, Les, this is. This has been fun. It's been a great conversation, man. I really enjoyed it. Thanks and, uh, appreciate you coming in. And I think our audience is going to have a lot of fun with us, especially the story about you, uh, suck up thousands of gallons of water with, uh, shop facts augmented with shopping carts holding the power cords up above the water. You know, they're going to get a kick out of that. So, anyway, thanks again, man. Really appreciate being on the show.

Speaker B: Thanks for having me.

Speaker A: All right, everybody. Hey, thanks for joining us for another episode of Head, Heart and Boots. And if you're enjoying the show but you love this episode, please hit Follow Formerly known as subscribe, write us a review or share this episode with a friend. Share it on LinkedIn, share it via text, whatever. It all helps. Thanks for listening.