The power of experience: AARP CEO Myechia Minter-Jordan

Speaker A: And when we think about the opportunities that having five generations as an example in the workforce represents, it represents an opportunity for exchange of ideas, it represents an opportunity for mentorship, and it actually strengthens the fabric of the workplace to have these generations working together and learning from one another. Particularly now, when we think about, uh, the, um, AI and how we're leveraging AI in the workplace.

Speaker B: Foreign. It can seem like organizations are hardwired to overlook structural changes in the economy while they focus on disruptive technologies or quarterly results. Artificial intelligence and its effect on how work gets done is consuming massive amounts of managerial bandwidth. Yet demographic change is testing whether long standing management practices still fit today's labor market. As business leaders grapple with AI, persistent labor shortages and slower workforce growth, can they afford to undervalue older workers? Welcome to the Managing the Future of Work podcast from Harvard Business School. I'm your host, Bill Kerr. My guest today is Dr. Maisha Minter Jordan, CEO of AARP, the influential nonprofit serving Americans 50 and older. We'll examine what AARP's research and work with employers reveal about the changing role of older workers in the US Economy. We'll explore what distinguishes organizations that are making better use of experienced talent, how AI may expand or limit opportunities for longer careers, and why caregiving has become such a strategic workforce issue. And we'll look at what business leaders can do differently to build more productive, age inclusive organizations. Maisha, uh, welcome to the podcast.

Speaker A: Thanks for having me, Bill.

Speaker B: Maisha, tell us a little bit about your career and what you've brought from that into your work at aarp.

Speaker A: I am an internist by training and also went, uh, to business school once I completed my internship in residency and realized that I knew nothing about the business of medicine. That was all in the spirit of really wanting to understand the system and how I could be proactive for my patients. Um, from there I really began to pursue more opportunities regarding systemic impact and how I could have a larger impact on the system that served my patients, which has ultimately led me to this role of CEO of aarp. When I think about healthcare, I think about it in its most holistic sense. And AARP focuses on health, wealth and self. And all of those things are integrated and correlated as it pertains to the impact on overall healthcare. So for me, this is, uh, an amazing opportunity to impact people like myself who are over 50 and to represent over 125 million Americans in our country today and to really lead the charge as to how we rethink aging and how we rethink the experience of aging and the impacts of that on every industry, um, that is present in our country.

Speaker B: One of the things you've talked about, uh, a lot is the longevity revolution. Tell us a little bit about that framing and what it means for the way employers need to think about older.

Speaker A: Older Americans, people are living longer, they're working longer and contributing longer than any previous generation. But businesses and policies have not really met this moment of people staying increasingly active as they age. And so when I think about what this means, it means combating some of the misconceptions that around the aging worker, um, that older workers are liabilities, that the skills that have always made people exceptional at their jobs somehow expire at a certain time in one's career journey. And for the first time in history, we're also experiencing five generations in the workplace. And all of these factors together are really creating this longevity revolution that businesses need to step up for and really understand the impact not only on their workers, but also on the people that they are intending to serve.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, there's a lot for us to unpack there. Let's just begin, though, with the consumer side of older kind of population, population aging more broadly. How does that need to impact the way businesses think about individuals over the age of 50? And you mentioned you're over that age. I'm also over that age. So we'll be kind to that age. Um, but as both employees and also as consumers, how does that then connect into the work of the business?

Speaker A: Sure. So, as consumers and as people living in our country today, we know that the adults 50 plus in our country contribute over $12.5 trillion annually to the US economy. We also know that nearly 54 million adults are 50 plus participating, uh, in today's workforce. These workers, over 50, generate over half of our federal tax revenue. We also know that tech spending, as an example, among adults 50 plus has increased over 62% since 2019. We're dealing with all of these factors in terms of who we intend to serve as consumers, our own workforce, and the economic realities of a longevity economy, of an economy that's being driven by the 50 plus in our country. We released a report in June called the Longevity Economy, and it really highlights most of what I've said, but also gives clear direction to businesses as they think about the impact not only on their employees, but also on their consumers.

Speaker B: I'm sure you've had to talk through this before, but there's a lot of angst right now about intergenerational dynamics. Um, this most likely UH is centered at its core around the housing market, but it also extends into other uh, settings, including even into business. And the opportunities that the younger workers have. Talk us through a little bit of that because that's almost like the, a different sort of perspective on looking at the longevity revolution is, does this create more angst, uh, across generations?

Speaker A: Well I think part of the premise of pitting one generation against another really defeats the purpose as to how we can all live our best lives, how we can all continue to contribute in the most impactful ways. And when we think about the opportunities that having five generations as an example in the workforce represents, it represents an opportunity for exchange of ideas, it represents an opportunity for mentorship and it actually strengthens the fabric of the workplace to have these generations working together and learning from one another. Particularly now when we think about um, the um, AI and how we're leveraging AI in the workplace, we know that the experience that the older worker often brings can help direct where AI can be most useful. And at the same time we know that younger generations can help the implementation of that AI tools, uh, and resources that we're now using in the workplace to make our work more effective. So there's a beautiful synergy that we often don't talk about. Um, clearly there are concerns that every generation has as regarding housing affordability, but this isn't one particular generation over another. These are things that impact us all. And so as we come up with solutions and opportunities to solve for some of the affordability crisis, it has to involve understanding the power and the economic impact of the 50 plus as well as other generations. And how do we create solutions that impact us all, understanding that we all want the same things.

Speaker B: It seems like that creates a lot of extra challenges for managers, uh, to be able to kind of speak to all the different levels of the workforce from the youngest to the oldest. Any uh, sort of perspectives or thoughts from AARP about how the best managers are able to kind of deliver in that, to take advantage of those synergies that you are describing.

Speaker A: Employers that embrace this multi generational team gain stronger mentorship, institutional knowledge, innovation and retention. So it does require more of managers to very, to think very strategically to understand those motivational aspects of each generation and how they can speak to those and encourage those in the workplace. Are we on Instagram and TikTok and all the other, all these social media platforms and what's the language that we use to be inclusive of each of these generations?

Speaker B: Yeah, it's implicit in that uh, what you just said but we just make it ah, even more explicit, which is um, you're highly. To celebrate it like you know, and to even emphasize the differences that um, different uh, ages of workforce can bring into it. I'll just make a like a slight kind of tangent here. In some parts of marketing, for example, they have been increasingly sophisticated about saying that this 55 year old woman may have the same interests as this 22 year old uh, man and likewise trying to be less maybe age kind of categorization about how we should think about the consumer behavior because they both may be daredevils and their peers may be different there. But you're in some respects even highlighting on the employment side too bring that out a little bit more to recognize it and to try to leverage it.

Speaker A: That's right. Again, I think it's an opportunity to tap into this and I love that example that you just gave. Part of what this opportunity to understand the longevity revolution is to recognize that as we live longer, as we're working longer, our experiences, there are shared experiences across generations that we can tap into. As we talked about the affordability crisis that impacts us all, no matter what generation you're in. And so how do tap into that deeper understanding of those shared experiences and move away from the old notions of what it means to age in this country. So I am really excited about being able to highlight that. And the businesses that can tap into that now are the ones that will be more successful in the future.

Speaker B: Maisha, let's go back to the artificial intelligence which uh, not surprisingly sits on virtually every business leader's mind right now and help us think through whether you think it creates opportunity or risk for uh, more experienced workers. Like what role will that technology revolution that we've been experiencing have for what older workers are able to do in the workplace and uh, also kind of their career kind of dynamics.

Speaker A: The current AI conversation treats older workers as if they're the ones that need to catch up. Where the reality actually is that older workers have been navigating and adopting technology for years. You know, I think about when the cell phone first came out when we were younger or when the Internet came out and how quickly we adapted where you know, we've. So what's interesting about the older workers that we've been through more technological changes and revolutions, if you will, than many other generations and the numbers bear that out. Workers 50 plus increased their share of LinkedIn learning sessions on technology topics from 19% to 27% in just three years. Um, and the World Economic Forum identifies critical Thinking and problem solving as the top skills needed for working with AI. And these areas are precisely where older workers, experienced workers excel. So I think that this is an opportunity for the 50 plus uh, individual to be able to demonstrate that versatility, that flexibility that we've had our entire lives as it pertains to adopting new technology and to leverage our experience to help inform how the technology is used in the workplace.

Speaker B: So Maisha, the other side of AI is that uh, uh, it is said by some that it democratizes all knowledge. And of course we all play around with the LLMs and we can see just how much information we can gather uh, in front of us very quickly. Is there a ah, concern or a worry that somehow this diminishes the importance of the experience or the accumulated different events that people have had in their careers? If they have a quick touch point to lots and lots of uh, this information very quickly, I would say that

Speaker A: the organizations that will succeed uh, won't choose between AI and experienced workers. They'll actually combine the strengths of both. And so while the information is democratized to an extent, there will always be a need for human oversight of the applicability of that information and how it can make work more efficient and effective. I'm so excited about using the agent that I've built to help me make decisions. But it doesn't take the place of having an amazing chief of staff. It helps elevate the conversations that I have uh, to make sure that I'm meeting my objectives and gives me greater clarity as a leader to provide direction. But it doesn't take the place of having a ah, human in the loop.

Speaker B: When you think about the generative AI and like these latest impacts, the one place they have pointed to is maybe reduced hiring of the youngest workers in the, in the work, you know, entry into the workplace, uh, so the early 20s and um, if anything perhaps you know, there's less need for you know, in some employers for entry level work. Whereas the older workforce has been kind of able to keep their, their roles or responsibilities. I don't know if that tracks into things that you have seen or hear. Um, certainly in our line of work, um, there's a lot of uh, the more experienced people around um, HBs that are extremely good at the technology. It's not correlated deeply with age. It's kind of got this extra uh, dimension that sits uh, around it.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think you're exactly right. We are seeing that. I'm seeing the same things that you've recounted and I do think it does create additional opportunity for, uh, older, more experienced workers, uh, and at the same time with the five generations that are in the workforce where those older workers are able to work, um, very collaboratively, uh, when given the right supports, when given the right sort of, um, managerial oversight to help bring the younger worker, um, along that continuum of experience and can amplify the impact that businesses seek to.

Speaker B: Have you mentioned a little bit earlier your work that you've been doing with LinkedIn? Tell us a little bit more about what you and LinkedIn have been jointly studying together and some of the key kind of headline results.

Speaker A: We've been really working on, uh, combating uh, the misperception that older workers are liabilities and really lifting up, uh, the research that shows the, the adoption of technology, as I mentioned earlier, that older workers are experiencing through some of those trainings and providing opportunities for older workers to understand, uh, how to position themselves in today's, um, employment environment. We've also been lifting up the fact that people are not retiring, uh, as early as they had been before, that careers are not likely to be a straight line, um, that there are longer careers with more chapters. And what does it mean for people who are unretiring? What does it mean for people who are returning to work? And how do they uh, position themselves as strong candidates given the experience that they have? We've done that with LinkedIn, we've done that in our own research. And I think part of what we're really exploring is how older workers are navigating today's labor market, including retention, reskilling, AI adoption, career transitions and age discrimination. And all of the findings reinforce that experienced workers are not only adapting to change, that there are among employers most valuable assets. And we released that study most recently in December of 2025. That's showing the value of older workers, um, uh, that are brought to multigenerational workforces.

Speaker B: What are some of the biggest misconceptions that the employers, uh, have about those that are over 50 and what they can do?

Speaker A: Well, we know that over 64% of 50 plus workers have seen or experienced age discrimination. And that takes many flavors. That could be from assuming that an older worker is unable to adopt new technology or assuming that an older worker can't, uh, take on a significant project and complete that project in a certain timeframe. And at the same time, particularly from the LinkedIn research that uh, we were able to conduct In December of 2025, we know that 85% of workers who are over the age of 50 who were hired in 2024 remain with their employer one year later, versus 71% of younger hires. We know that, as I mentioned earlier, that older workers have a significant and have experienced a significant increase in the uptake of tech courses and that many people are unretiring and returning to work, some because they want to or some because they have to. Um, but we are, as older workers increasingly are seeing careers that have multiple chapters, that have continuous learning and greater flexibility, and that is sort of not well understood or appreciated by many businesses and those that do tend to have much stronger outcomes. And when we as businesses and leaders can understand how to meet employees where they are regardless of age, uh, we are better off in terms of getting what we need out of our colleagues who are supporting the objectives of our enterprises.

Speaker B: Uh, it's been estimated, and I think you probably had some role in these, that, uh, more than a trillion dollars of unpaid caregiving happens, uh, every year in the U.S. um, and certainly we've had in prior, uh, Mandy, Future of Work podcast episodes that have touched on the caregiving economy. Uh, walk through what you've thought of as those best practices or innovative things that the employers are doing and AARP is doing to embrace the role that Those that are 50 plus have in the caregiving responsibilities.

Speaker A: Yeah, so we are really proud of our employer caregiving program that has helped organizations recognize and address the challenges facing employees who are balancing work with caregiving for aging parents, spouses or other loved ones. Um, the program works directly with employers and workplace experts to develop practical strategies that help employees remain engaged in the workforce while managing caregiving responsibilities. This includes things like the caregiver leave that I mentioned earlier. We, uh, provide practical toolkits and resources that organizations can implement immediately. Um, like convening a caregiver employee resource group where employees feel like they can connect with others who are managing caregiving responsibilities while also trying to manage their job and providing spaces for employees to be able to share best practices, to be able to share resources, um, bringing in subject matter experts to help refine workplace strategies based on employer and employee feedback. Um, and really ensuring that we recognize caregiving as a workforce issue that affects recruitment, retention, productivity and employee well being, not simply, uh, as an employee benefit. And so what I'm very excited about is that we've had dozens of employers participate in this program with participation growing, and we've been able to influence thousands of working caregivers and their families by encouraging more supportive practices. Um, what I would see in the future is that as businesses continue to understand who are the caregivers in their workforce, that they then create even stronger programs to support them. Understanding that if you don't understand what your employees are encountering, we are missing an opportunity to increase productivity, to increase retention. We currently have 63 million caregivers today. And that number is only going to continue to grow as our, as the longevity economy, uh, continues to grow as well and as the demographics of our country represent today.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think we often first think about in the caregiving responsibility, like parents of young children, but the responsibility for aging parents, uh, is increasing, typically for those that are in the workplace and over 50. One of the things that the earlier research that this project, uh, found was that those that were most likely to have left, um, a job because of a caregiving responsibility, because they just couldn't make all the different pieces add up, were among the most experienced, most prized workers in the economy. Part of it was that they had the financial, you know, means. But that probably maps also into your experience of like the older workforce being the more experienced, uh, in the workplace. They typically have the reserves. And so they're more likely to say, yeah, ah, I can't do this right now. I can't make it all add up and take care of my, you know, my, my parent who has Alzheimer's or something that, that needs my attention.

Speaker A: Exactly. And we always say, if you're not a caregiver now, you will be a caregiver in the future or be, or become in need of one. And so this will impact us all Getting out ahead of that. Business leaders. And understanding that impact on our workforce is going to be critically important. And this also disproportionately impacts women. And so we also want to understand, as we want to ensure that we, that our workforce reflects the customers that we serve, that we're able to understand, uh, how this can disproportionately impact different aspects of the workforce as well.

Speaker B: Let's go back to the, um, nonlinear career, ah, path, which in part relates to this because some people may step out for a while for caregiving roles and then they're ready to come back a little bit later. Just talk to me a little bit about how you see at aarp, the older worker reskilling, upskilling kind of dynamic playing out. Are there any particular, um, I don't know, modalities or ways that, uh, is currently working, well, places that perhaps it could be further enhanced, uh, just to make sure that those skill sets are continuously up to date?

Speaker A: Yeah, so I think we're acknowledging that Careers are no longer this straight line that people are retiring, returning back to work, reskilling into new fields, launching encore careers, um, that pursue purpose alongside income. We tracked a 7% unretirement rate in early 2025, up from 6% the prior summer. And nearly half of those workers sought out a new job out of financial necessity. But many simply wanted a new chap and new types of fulfillment. Uh, and the people who thrive over the long game are folks that stay curious, they stay connected, and they keep building on what they already know. Um, and part of what businesses are doing and what AARP is doing is particularly now with AI, we are upskilling. We're understanding what are our business needs and how do we create the right training modules that allow our employees and colleagues to step into new roles, new scopes of responsibilities. And we're supporting our colleagues across the enterprise in terms of ideation of new ideas, um, things that can help us to meet our objectives and our mission and more efficiently, more effectively, uh, and leveraging our HR resources to be able to understand what are the current skills of our employees. And we've implemented new systems where we're asking our employees to input those skills so that we can then match them to the appropriate opportunities within AARP and then also understand where do we need to upskill. So it does require, uh, a new sort of intention of human resource, uh, capabilities within businesses to really survey across your enterprise, how do your skills need to increase in this new context that we find ourselves.

Speaker B: It's fascinating. I was, uh, I had not put side by side, um, before just, I mean, there's the continuous skilling that we all need and that um, the next generation of technologies in the workplace require us to uh, um, be prepared to handle and so forth. But there is this extra dimension of people getting further along in one career. And they just say, I've got one more chapter left. I want it to be radically different than the things that I've done before and uh, the opportunities maybe for employers to um, embrace that or to be ready to say, maisha, you've done this great work, uh, in the medical field, but now we want you to go in a new direction. Are you excited for that and kind

Speaker A: of build the support around it and to really understand those transferable skills. As a physician, I was trained to triage, to understand as an internist, when a patient comes to see me, what are the top priorities that I need to address and then how do I take those and create a plan of action that I would then implement with my patients, I take that same skill of uh, quickly analyzing and triaging to what I do today. So when I'm presented with an issue or an initiative, I'm triaging. That's the work that's in front of us today of understanding the applicability of skills when we're moving into a new chapter, understanding how to enhance those transferable skills to be able to get the best out of our colleagues and workers.

Speaker B: So Maisha, obviously, uh, it takes money, uh, to enter into reskilling, upskilling programs. Um, does that tend to sit with the employee, the employer? Is that something that should be more government sort of supported and any thoughts about that?

Speaker A: So I think it's a shared responsibility between the employer and the employee. I, um, I would comment less on the government and really focus on uh, our organizations. We have, you know, significant dollars that many of us set aside for our employees and it's a reallocation of those dollars to be able to meet the changing context that we find or find ourselves in. Older workers are doing this on their own as well. Uh, and so it's a. I think people recognize the need to uh, learn to leverage every resource possible and to take online courses, um, that may be at uh, low or no cost.

Speaker B: We haven't really spent any time yet on gig, workforce and talent platforms and so forth. And likewise remote work, uh, or you know, uh, work from home type settings. How does that kind of layer into the AARP's kind of perspectives or thoughts about employers interacting with uh, workers that are over age 50?

Speaker A: There is a need across all generations for flexibility. And we've seen that, uh, as we moved from out of COVID where we were primarily working from home to these hybrid models. When I assess our employees across the continuum at aarp, there is a significant desire for us to continue our hybrid model. We are, um, you know, we're in the office, uh, the majority of the week and then we have some days where we are working from home. That flexibility I've seen has made us much more productive. And we continually assess that to ensure that we're meeting our objectives as a company. And every company looks at this differently. But I do think that there is a predominance of companies that are experiencing employee, employees saying, I need flexibility. Um, we certainly want the face to face time being able to sort of ideate in person. But there's also this need, particularly as caregiving responsibilities increase, for there to be um, that flexibility. And that's important as we think about what's most important to a productive and efficient and effective workforce and creating and retaining a strong workforce. And there's a balance that we all have to strike as business leaders as we assess that.

Speaker B: Yeah, that balance is important because as you mentioned earlier, one of the benefits of older workers in the workplace is across those five generations they transfer knowledge, they mentor, they bring a lot of stuff in. And some of our challenges can be at times they're pretty happy living somewhere else and working remote and kind of calling into the office. But you actually sometimes also want to nudge them back in and say, we actually need your presence around here because that has some extra dynamics for the workplace.

Speaker A: Yeah. And that's again applicable to all generations. I know that there are younger generations who say, I really want to be able to connect with people. We're so less connected in person given social media than we were before. And so people also crave that ability to see people in person and then balancing that with the flexibility that I may need as a caregiver. So it's an important uh, assessment for employers to make of their employee base to understand where those needs are and to ensure that you're consistently evolving to uh, ensure that you're meeting those, those needs.

Speaker B: Can you tell us about the Employer Pledge and Employer alliance and some of the key learnings that have come out of that?

Speaker A: Yeah. So we have really been focused on uh, the uh, AARP Employer alliance as our flagship employees employer engagement initiative that's designed to help organizations build age inclusive, multi generational workplaces. And this is evolving from our long running Employer Pledge program. And the program is grounded in the belief that organizations that embrace age diversity will be better positioned to innovate, to compete and grow as Americans live and work longer. So we provide uh, practical tools to help employers attract, retain and leverage workers. 50 plus. We offer workshops, educational programming and peer learning opportunities that are focused on age inclusive practices. We convene employers, uh, to share those best practices on workforce recruitment, retention, flexibility and upskilling. And then we also support organizations in implementing age friendly hiring practices, age bias awareness efforts and multi generational workforce strategies. So we've engaged thousands of organizations to date that are committed to age diverse workforces and we've helped employers move from awareness, awareness to action through the practical support and measurable strategies that we've helped them to create. Very good.

Speaker B: I'm going to give you, we're getting closer to the end here, so I'm going to give you a uh, magic wand here for a minute. Imagine you could influence, uh, or change one key business practice to help kind of balance this out and provide the right opportunities. Okay.

Speaker A: The one thing I would change is how we think about the older worker today. Moving from the framing of an older worker being a liability to being an asset. And how then would that reframing influence the policies of the workplace, influence the language that we use, influence how we engage with our employees? And so I have a former board member who, um, does a lot of work in this space. And he said to me that all businesses have a certain number in mind. And what I mean by that is the number that the age that reflects the consumers that you're going after, the workforce, the ideal workforce that you envision. And I think the magic wand would be shifting that framework, um, to be in alignment with where we are today in terms of the demographics of our country. We're not there yet. And the businesses that get there sooner will be able to be more effective and efficient and will be more successful ultimately.

Speaker B: Okay, so we're going to. You get one more, uh, round with the wine. Let's talk about public policy. Uh, and there's, of course, many different dimensions that, uh, public policy interacts with, uh, the work of aarp. What are the opportunities you most, uh, emphasize in that area?

Speaker A: So what we want, and I think this is always reflective of what we're hearing from our members and from the 50 plus around our country today, is to ensure that people can be empowered to choose how they live as they age. And public policy that aligns with that are incredible programs where the earned benefits of Social Security support, uh, people who have worked their entire life and contributed to the program, for them to be able to have that program exist into the future for our younger workers today to know that they will have financial stability, in part supported by Social Security. This also pertains to programs like Medicare to ensure that people have the health care that they need. It's impossible to work if you're not healthy. It's impossible to work if you're worried constantly about how you can afford your medications, how you can afford, um, all of the things that life brings you. The other is around caregiving. We know that, again, that There are over 63 million caregivers today, and caregivers need relief. And so we are fighting for a tax credit for caregivers, and we do have bipartisan support on that and ensuring that people can have some money back in their pockets that allow them to meet the over $7,000 on average that caregivers spend out of pocket each year to have that burden lessened Our goal is to continue to fight for those policies and to continue as a nonpartisan organization to bring the stories of everyday Americans to our representatives so that they understand what people are encountering every day as they want, uh, you know, just to be able to live in our country today. And so that's what's most important. And those are the things that we'll continue to fight for on behalf of the 50 plus and those who will be entering into the beautiful, beautiful waters of the 50 plus, uh, in the

Speaker B: near future on that beautiful waters optimism note, let me, ah, maybe end with the question that just as you look to the decade ahead or two decades ahead, and we're definitely going to continue to become an older population during that period. Uh, what's something that gives you some optimism for where AARP is going, for where the country's going, the workforce is going?

Speaker A: What gives me optimism is with the changing demographics of our country, um, aging in our country is changing and the recognition of that will only continue to increase. And so where we are going now and AARP is focused on, is highlighting the shared experiences across the continuum of aging. I know that we will continue to combat age discrimination and as we continue to understand the incredible power of, uh, the 50 plus in this country and what it means for our economy, that there'll be increasing recognition of that and a reshaping of how we engage, uh, along those lines, I'm encouraged by this opportunity that these shifting demographics represent for our country and encouraged by the recognition, albeit slow, and we are leading the pack in terms of ensuring that we do it more rapidly and understand that this is now the context that we all need to step up and understand and understand the impact of it in our various industries. So I'm excited about what that potential, uh, creates for our country.

Speaker B: That sounds great. Well, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast.

Speaker A: Thank you for having me. Great conversation.

Speaker B: We hope you enjoy the Managing the Future of Work podcast. If you haven't already, please subscribe and rate the show wherever you get your podcast. You can find out more about the Managing the Future of Work project at our website, hbs. Edumanagingthefutureofwork. While you're there, sign up for our newsletter.