The Early-Stage Growth Playbook with Marc Thomas (GMT155)

Speaker A: Welcome to Growth Marketing Today where marketers, designers and product owners level up their

Speaker B: growth marketing chops from experts in today's top startups.

Speaker A: Here's your host, Ramli John.

Speaker C: Welcome to episode 155 of Growth Market Today. This is your host, Ramley John. Today we're going to be talking about early stage growth playbook. Now you've worked hard to build your product idea. Your product is out in the world, but no one is paying attention to use your SaaS. The MRR is recurring at zero now. Sounds familiar. Now, uh, Mark Thomas, head of growth at Powered By Search, has been there too. When he launched his company, he toiled and grounded it out for years on a, uh, direct sales only model and it was grueling. But bit by bit, he put into place the fundamentals of the early stage growth playbook which resulted in organic signups going up 1,330% and revenue from low touch or no touch sales by 17%. In this episode 155, you learn first, why value props matter more than positioning at early stage. Second, the difference between value proposition and positioning. And third, how to test your messaging in less than 20 minutes. Before we go on, I just want to thank the sponsor for this episode 42 agency. They are, uh, a plug and play demand generation and marketing operation Agency for B2B SaaS, companies that are ready to scale. You can learn more about them at 42 agency to get a free $500 consulting time. Well, let's jump into my chat with Mark.

Speaker A: Welcome everybody to another episode of the Growth Marketing Today podcast. Today I have Mark. I finally have him. I know we chatted a few months before. Already got him on, uh, a webinar with product led. And now you are here, Mark. How are things with you?

Speaker B: I'm, um, doing really well, thanks. Yeah, it's so nice to be on here. Finally, uh, we rescheduled this a few times. Uh, and hey, busy people, right?

Speaker A: Like that for sure. I mean, uh, before we jump in, I know we're going to be talking about early ah, stage growth. You put out a course about this. But before we do, I love to just warm up the audience to you. And you tweeted out just yesterday you got a tattoo, target customer pain points. Uh, and if people can check out your Twitter and check out, uh, this tweet, like, how did this, how does it happen? I know, I know you told me it's not real, but like, well, what's. Was it there? Was it something else?

Speaker B: No, no, you know what? It isn't real. Uh, but I did get a number of messages asking if I was doing okay. Um, you know, um, I think, like, the, the thing is, uh, you know, one of the main messages from my day to day work, you know, I create a huge amount of content for work. Um, and, uh, one of the main messages that we have at Powered by searches to target customer pain points. And I did a bunch of interviews last week where I felt like I was saying target customer pain points almost every other sentence, uh, in response to something. And so I thought, you know what I'm going to jokingly say on Twitter, uh, I'm going to get a tattoo. And, um, people seem to think that was funny. So I thought, hey, what if I actually did? Uh, and so I, I thought, I'm not going to tell anyone. I'm going to do this. But, um, I went on Inkbox, uh,

Speaker A: which is, like, funny.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I, uh, I ordered, like, a fake tattoo, uh, of that. And, um, yeah, man, uh, it's dumb as heck, but, uh, I'm like, I'm regretting it even though it's fake. Um, so I'm glad I didn't go through and get an actual tattoo. Uh, I don't believe in any message that much.

Speaker A: That is so funny. How long? I think it's going to last like two to four weeks and then it goes away, essentially.

Speaker B: Yeah, for sure, for sure. It's going to make my trips to the sauna, which are fairly regular at the moment because of the winter. Um, uh, it's going to make my trips to the sauna way more, uh, interesting as people read target customer pain points on my arm. Uh, so I'm looking forward to that.

Speaker A: That's totally funny. Thank you for sharing that. Uh, what makes it even funnier is people asking you if you're. If you're doing okay. Are you losing your mind? Uh, that's totally funny. You had several messages. You said you had several messages asking you.

Speaker B: Okay, yeah, for sure. I had a bunch of people who, like, I talk to quite regularly reach out and say, like, did you actually do this? Like, what? Um, just lots of unbelief.

Speaker A: Uh, that is totally funny. Awesome, man. Well, thank you for sharing that and, um, keeping it light and fun. I think, like, stunts like this are what makes it more fun instead of, like, um, just, you know, it's just. It's just funny.

Speaker B: You can't really escape it, you know? Um, did you see Patrick Campbell, uh, from Profit, well, last week, talking about Churn, and he's. What is it 100,000 times he said something like that?

Speaker A: He said churn so many times. Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, I struggle to not go to the bathroom for like one hour. And he didn't go at all during that time. He just filmed himself saying chin a hundred thousand times. Like, I can't imagine how long that took. That guy must have, like, sorry to bring it down a notch, but he must have, like a bladder of steel.

Speaker A: Uh, it's so true. I mean, those guys are crazy when it comes to stunts. Like, they put out hot sauce. Like they had like, um, like marketing. Like Pokemon cards or something like that.

Speaker B: Or some kind of baseball cards. Right.

Speaker A: Like trumps. Yeah. Anyway, let's jump in. Let's talk about early stage growth. You put out this course. What made what was like, the motivation around building this, this course for, for early stage growth?

Speaker B: Well, you know, um, I actually got into marketing because I was running an early stage SaaS. And, uh, we didn't know anything about marketing a software product when we started the company. We were totally naive about it. And that meant that we just relied on stuff that we knew from selling service businesses and stuff like that in the past. Um, now, as you can imagine, and you know, because you're in the same industry as I am, that doesn't work in the same way. Uh, you can't, you can't necessarily grow a company in the same way when it's a software company, as you would grow it if you were running like a marketing agency, for example. Now, uh, what I learned was that there is a pretty solid playbook, uh, that you can run as, uh, an early stage SaaS marketer, whether you're, say, the founder of the company or somebody who's been brought in to run that marketing, um, that will save you a lot of problems and basically cuts through the noise of what people say you should do to market an early stage SaaS. There's a lot of kind of, uh, tactical stuff out there that, you know, focuses on. You should do this on this channel and that on that channel. But very few resources that I found that kind of broke down. Okay, how do you go from like, validating your product all the way to, uh, writing content marketing that works and gets you customers early stage versus that gets you eyeballs or people visiting your site, whatever you want to say about that. So I thought, why not codify that and put it down? I learned it. It was painful and, uh, so, hey, I should get compensated for that pain, right?

Speaker A: I love it. Yeah, you totally right there. One of the things you Mentioned when you were sharing, what you wanted to discuss is there's a big difference between early stage growth and later stage growth.

Speaker B: Yeah, for sure, man. I mean, uh, these days I only work with later stage companies, um, powered by search. All of our clients are already sizable SaaS businesses, um, and we help them to find the right channels to kind of scale what they've done already. It's not the case for an early stage SaaS company. Even when you hit early stage, could be anything from zero dollars all the way to say, a million, uh, in recurring revenue. That's what I would consider early stage. Maybe even up to 10, frankly. Uh, but most of those companies will be at a point where they might have, say, early customers, but that doesn't mean that that's going to grow. Uh, and one of the big stumbling blocks that people fall into is saying, okay, I've got some early stage customers. That means that all I have to do is do more or slightly different versions of what I'm already doing and in a couple of years I'll just wait for that to compound and then I'll be at $100 million. Right. Just doesn't work like that, unfortunately. And I wanted to help early stage founders by showing them, okay, I have this experience of running early stage startups. Here's what I know about that. But also now I work with all of these guys and here's what I know to be true about those people as well and how that impacts early stage growth. And I think that's something that, um, I wish that I'd had, uh, in a kind of structured way when I was first starting out. Um, and so I just wanted to share that with people.

Speaker A: Really makes a ton of sense, uh, in terms of, uh, uh, one of the other things you wanted to talk about was around this. Sure. When people think about growth for early stage, they think about, let's run some ads, let's create some content, let's create some landing pages. You shared with me before we chatted that, hey, there's some foundational stuff that early stage marketers really need to nail before they even consider that. What are some of those foundational stuff? And you covered this in your course, but I'd love to just hear and share to the audience those foundational stuff.

Speaker B: Yeah, sure. I think the most basic thing is, uh, that a lot of people don't ever validate their ideas. And a lot of people will say, well, that's not the job of marketing. Um, but my take on it is that as an early stage company, Everything is everyone's job. Uh, until you get to a point where you're reliably growing your revenue every month, you need to be like an all rounder. Now if you validate your company and you make sure that your idea, your product is a problem that solves a pain point for a very specific customer target. Customer pain points, I literally wrote it on my arm. You set yourself up for greater success down the road and actually everything becomes easier when you've validated your product. So um, let's say you've got a product idea. Now you think, hey, why don't I just follow? And this is what a lot of people do. Why don't I just follow like the Tim Ferriss playbook of the world and they say, hey, I'll set up a landing page and I'll send some ads to it and I might set up 20 different landing page and test 20 different ads, uh, sets, um, just with small tests and whichever one gets the most, I'll invest the rest. I'll invest the budget from the underperformers. That's a classic thing that a lot of early stage SaaS businesses do, but I would argue that's a limiting worldview. Now what they should do is they should go off and they should interview a, ah, series of people with a very specific customer profile. Now this might not actually become your customer later on, but you should go off and you should say like, okay, maybe I'm speaking to um, marketing managers in enterprise SaaS, companies that uh, have revenues of X, Y or Z. Now you need to go off and find a bunch of those people and speak openly about their pain points. So rather than trying to lead them to say, yes, I think your product is a good idea. You talk about their worldview and their challenges and then when it becomes obvious that you're on the same page, you can dive in and not talk about your problem still, but validate further by asking questions about their pain points that relate to the problem that you want to solve with a software product. Some people will do that. They'll go off and they'll validate that thing, um, in that way. And that's great. Those people are already in the top 1% of early stage SaaS companies in my opinion. How you get into the upper echelons of SaaS growth is by taking that stuff, taking those uh, insights from those interviews with customers and creating a systematic, uh, framework for your growth early stage. So how, uh, I recommend people do this is literally create a spreadsheet that talks, that um, takes Direct quotes from the interviews, ah, that they've done puts them into, let's say you've got an insights column where it's direct quotes. Then you've got the column of the person who said it. Um, then you've got a, uh, classification which maybe talks, um, about a pain point, a solution, uh, an alternative. They've tried solving their problem previously, maybe the problem with those alternatives. Because later on you're going to want to have marketing messages that land directly with that kind of person, uh, that in language that they already know, uh, that they identify with because somebody in their exact position has said a similar thing. Taking this and putting it into something that is really objective, like a spreadsheet will allow early stage founders to avoid the kind of cognitive biases. I hate talking about stuff, uh, in those kind of lofty terms. But the cognitive bias of, hey, I think this is a good idea and someone said something like this, therefore I'm going to invest three to five years of my life building this product. Um, because the end of the day you will waste the most important resource that you have, which is literally your life, if you don't set yourself up for success by validating the product. Early stage, I would say that is the real foundational idea of early stage growth. Uh, and early stage marketing in general is validation and making sure that you're understanding what your customer wants. Because everything else comes from an understanding of your customer's pain points.

Speaker A: It goes back to that tattoo you have, customer pain points.

Speaker B: I'm like, at this point, I'm like a pastiche of a marketer just constantly saying, uh, pain points, pain points, pain points.

Speaker A: That's totally funny. I love you're validating it. You're suggesting, talking to the customer, getting those inside, um, being systematic about it with the spreadsheet, talking about pulling it out and putting it to landing pages. But that flows in so many other areas, right? Like it flows into content, blog posts, to sales, the sales team. Is that what you're seeing that as well, that foundational work is like foundational to growth overall?

Speaker B: Yeah. Well, my view is actually that you shouldn't create a website, um, until relatively established. Now this is like really, really unconventional wisdom because everyone says, hey, put up a landing page, send it to some people and see whether they convert.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: At least that way you've got data. But I think you're just doing the same thing that people who don't validate their problem actually are doing. They're uh, diving in head first. They need to test how deep the water is in the first place. So what I recommend doing instead is taking those messages from your validation phase, your customer interviews. You've got this spreadsheet, hopefully, because you've listened to that advice, uh, which is neatly structured insights into your audience. You want to take that and turn it into a series of four to five value propositions. So a value proposition is this just to really teach, uh, people how to suck, uh, eggs if they don't already know. Uh, you start off with a pain. So what is the pain point that your customer feels? It's a very neat, expressed view of the world. You can say it in a couple of words, like, for example, marketing, uh, manager in an enterprise SaaS. That's my customer. They've told me that one of the pains is they can't deliver projects because their team keep dropping tasks. So, um, one pain might be, I can't deliver projects on time. My team keeps dropping tasks. Okay, that's a pain. The implication of that is that they're missing their goals because they can't deliver projects. Now, that's the second part. So we've got pain, we've got, uh, implication. Now we want a solution. So we want to say how our product helps solve that. So mine might be, um, we, uh, manage your, uh, projects in a flexible way, collaborate with your team. That's a solution. Uh, you could dive into that in more depth and say, um, specifically how you could do that if you wanted to. Then the benefit is basically selling the outcome. Now you take that, that's a benefit. So, for example, deliver, um, projects on time. Uh, smash your goals. That's a benefit. You take those four things. So pain, implication, benefit and solution, and benefit, and you turn that into a single statement. Um, so manage your marketing projects with your team, collaboratively hit your goals, right? That's a value proposition. So you do that four or five times, and you've pretty much summarized hopefully your customer's whole set of pain points. You do that with each one of the pain points they expressed in the interviews, rather than what most people would do next, which is turn that into website landing page copy. What I would do at this stage and what I recommend people do is go off and literally write some emails. Just write an email back to your, uh, interviewees and say, um, hey, Ramli, I was thinking about our conversation the other day, uh, about how you said specific pain point. Um, one idea that I had for solving this is X, Y or Z. Um, here's how I think this will help you. Um, um, do you think this is along the right lines. Does this sound good right now? You do that. The, the second thing you can do is say, I've been working on a product that maybe solves this. Here's a short video, uh, that I prepared and that video is literally a loom. It's two minute loom of you presenting your product. Don't go more than two minutes. No one's got time for that. Um, send that as a link in the email and just say, here you go. Um, check this out. Let me know your thoughts. You're not looking for them to buy. You're looking to test whether this messaging and that product align to a pain point in that customer's life or that interviewee's life. At this stage, they're already warm contacts because you spoke to them about their pain points. So they're pretty likely, if you've done your work right, they're pretty likely to respond positively to that. When they do, you're able to say to them, hey, by the way, it sounds like this could be a product for you while I develop it. Could you introduce me to some people like you who have the same problem? Because people in their industry talk. This is a great way to develop your customer base early and in a way that goes from very warm to slightly less warm. And then eventually you're going to get to a point where you, you're pretty cold. You don't have a relationship with any of the people you're emailing other than they've been introduced to you as somebody with the same profile. If you're still selling when you get to that point, if people are still responding, that's the point where you invest in making a web page, uh, to go along with your product and asking people to pay for it.

Speaker A: I love how you're even validating your value proposition. Right. You're valuing it and it's like the minimum viable test, uh, so to speak. Instead of like putting up on a landing page, running ads on it, you're actually just like, hey, I'm going to email it to somebody I talked to before and asking. This is really resonating with them. Uh, I really love that.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think of it like progressive validation. So, you know, like, if you're a building, I don't know, maybe you've never done this before, but if you've built something with like, um, you're testing an electrical circuit, um, you test at each fail point. So you test in small bits so that you can. It's the same thing with code like Any system you can test by breaking it down and saying, okay, what's the earliest point of failure for this? Um, and how do I fix that point of failure if it's failing? Now you do it with your value propositions. You do it with your original idea. Later on you do it with, uh, your website messaging. Um, you install some heat maps or some uh, screen recording software on there and see what people are doing. That's how you test a funnel. At the end of the day, you look at the event data, um, even in your product itself, product growth, basically you watch what people do, uh, you watch where they fall off, uh, in the process of what you expect them to do. And then you ask yourself, is what I expect them to do the thing that they actually need to do? Because if it's not, I need to fix something, but if it is, then I need to fix something for them. Um, and you just go through that iteratively. And that's really, in my opinion, the whole of growth marketing is basically saying, okay, what do I know to be true? How have I validated this and if I know that it's false, how do I make a better choice or fix this in some sort of iterative way?

Speaker C: When we come back in just a moment, Mark is going to share how to test your messaging in less than 20 minutes. Just quick word from the sponsor of this episode.

Speaker D: This episode of growth marketing today is brought to you by 42 agency. If you're a marketing leader, you know that hiring experienced demand gen and ops professionals is really, really hard. That's where we come in. 42 agency is a plug and play demand gen team that can help you scale your B2B SaaS or kind of like an agency but with more of an in house feel. Which means you get all the experience you need to grow without the hiring headaches. Join organizations like Syn7Sprout, Social NAC and more. Visit 42uh Agency to get $500 worth of free consulting. That's F o u r t y t w o agency.

Speaker C: Let's jump back in my chat with Mark.

Speaker A: One of the things that I saw, I checked out your course, there was a part there, one of your videos or section where you describe the difference between value proposition and positioning. And I'm curious what your thoughts are on that. Thank you for sharing us this walkthrough of how you build value proposition statements. But how is that different? How is value proposition different from positioning?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a good question. Um, and one that I thought was super important because Ironically, it's a fail point in people's concept of early stage SaaS growth. Um, I spend a large part of my time working with our, uh, clients on positioning. Now positioning is something, uh, in my day to day that I always do before value props. Okay, so here's how I view it. Positioning is how you are understood by your customers in the marketplace against all of the other possible solutions. How you differentiate yourself from, uh, all of those different competitors, whether that's people in the same software category as you or whether that's other solutions. That's positioning. Positioning is basically helping everybody align, uh, around an understanding of where in the marketplace and all of the possible solutions. Your product is different. A value proposition is a function of positioning. A value proposition says, okay, we know where we are in the market, but a value proposition here helps us communicate in a way that's very clear and aligned to the customer needs, what our product does. So the reason that I recommend people don't think about positioning early stage is because they probably haven't got a well developed enough concept of the market to warrant that work until they're at like a fair old size. So I'll give you an example here. When I ran a, um, when I ran a, uh, survey tool, so I had a survey, uh, SaaS, and basically our product was frequently compared to SurveyMonkey. Now, uh, whether we liked it or not, that's what people's opinion was of us. Now we were so early compared to SurveyMonkey, which is a huge company. I mean, they've just been sold, but they were a huge company. Um, and the, the reality is, although we might think of ourselves as a competitor to SurveyMonkey, SurveyMonkey, like didn't even know we existed. And a common trap that people fall into in early stage SaaS is looking at the behemoths of their industry. You know, the big old players who've been around a long time and ultimately, you know, eat businesses like theirs for breakfast. Um, and they go, okay, what are those people doing and how can I differentiate from them? When really what they should just be doing is leaping ahead to a value proposition and going, okay, what do our customers have as pain points? How do we solve those versus how are we seen in the marketplace and how can we leverage that?

Speaker A: That totally makes sense. Yeah, I totally understand. Thank, uh, you for sharing the difference there. I think there could be a lot of confusion between the two, but you really did, uh, separate that out. I'm curious what your thoughts are around this. I think it sounds like a Lot of the early stage growth, um, things that you're talking about is it falls under product marketing. And I'm seeing a lot more startups. I'm not sure I saw this. I'm seeing more startups like their first marketing hire is a product marketing lead. Like several startups I've come across. Is this like, is that something that you would um, agree with? The first marketing hire should be a product marketing lead. I mean obviously it depends, right? Let's get there first. But once again I'm noticing that a lot of the early stage, uh, foundational stuff you're talking about falls under product marketing.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean look, um, uh, product marketing is one of those concepts in my view which I think of it as pretty. It's a, it's a kind of a contested concept. Right. You know, you know how people say product led growth is just a, you know, X, Y or Z. Anyway, product marketing is like, is definitely a set of functions within marketing. Does, does it, you know, does it you know, necessitate like a label of its own? Like enough people's livelihood rest on it that I'm inclined to think probably right. And maybe there's something that I'm not quite there with. And, and I know a lot of great product market give you uh, sort of a weird thing that happened to me recently. Someone recommended me as a product marketer to follow and I was like, what the heck's a product marketer? Um, uh, I literally googled it and you know, Google doesn't agree. Um, there's about 20 different definitions. So look, what problems does a product marketer traditionally solve? A product marketer generally helps people develop their customer profiles m and then goes off and shows how the features of the product tandem with those customer profiles in a way that ultimately is marketing helps the customer understand how they can solve the product. They're paying with the product in that sense. Yeah, product marketing is a great early function for ah, an early stage SaaS. Do you have to go off and hire that person? I don't think you do. Um, I think you need to hire somebody who understands the job. It doesn't matter what label they have. And frankly right now if you try to hire a product marketer early stage, you're going to be paying a premium because they're very much in demand. You'd be better off hiring, and sorry to all the product marketers out there, but you'd probably be just as good hiring somebody who's a general SaaS marketer who doesn't necessarily fall into any of those kind of categories, um, you might think about someone who would define themselves as a growth marketer or frankly just anyone who is able to speak to humans, think about their problems in a structured way and then translate that into probably early stage content, um, uh, of some kind. Uh, I would recommend focusing on pain point content early on. And there are probably product marketers listening to this going, that's what I do. And like totally valid. Um, we do a lot of work with product marketers. I'm not discounting what you do at all. I'm just saying there is a blurry area which early stage SaaS, companies and Ramni, you've worked with many of them. I'm sure you would at least understand my idea here that many of them go after shiny objects and get excited easily about trends. I wouldn't want anyone to end up paying a premium based on somebody's recommendation of the world and how they see an industry, um, versus aligning the problems that they actually have to solve to talent that is available at a rate that they are able to pay.

Speaker A: And even then, like this is like what you're talking about is foundational to the growth of that early stage. You wouldn't want to outsource that too. If you're the founder, you want to, like this is what I say could be totally wrong. Like if you're the founder, like you want to embed that voice of the customer or that value proposition in you because you're carrying the DNA of the startup. Like that's m. That's probably how I

Speaker B: would see that a hundred percent. I spoke to someone recently who had got to I think probably like 250k mrr. Um, sorry, ARR. Uh, which is like, that's pretty good for an early stage product. They hadn't even launched publicly, um, and they had that MRR from like three to four different customer profiles with three to four different use cases. And I was like, okay, the thing to do here is not to get excited about that 250k MRA. It's to ask where does this come from as a founder? Uh, how can you find more of those people and how can you narrow down on one of those profiles and just really choose that and just grow that to let's say a million dollars. And then think about how you find a marketer who takes over and grows the company. You might get some support along the way, but you should be running that growth in my opinion, until you're a pretty like you're pretty sizable business already.

Speaker A: That makes a ton of sense. Uh, I'm about to wrap up, uh, in just two more questions. The first one is around just if you had one or two pieces of advice that you can give. I know we talked a lot, uh, about different things today, like one or two pieces of advice you want to give to early stage founders or early stage marketers who are tuning in right now. What would be those advice, those pieces of advice that you'd like to give them?

Speaker B: Yeah, a couple of things. Um, from my own experience, I would say don't stick with ideas out of stubbornness. You will do better overall, both personally, professionally, and at the end of the day financially if you hold ideas strongly but loosely at the same time. So let's say your SaaS is growing slowly. Uh, this all depends on your goals at the end of the day. But if you're growing slowly, uh, and not in line with the timeline that you'd like to grow on, I would definitely ask yourself, why. Ask yourself if there's a market demand. Ask yourself if your product really solves the needs of the market and if it doesn't, think about, do you need to do a different product or do you need to pivot the messaging? Is the value proposition wrong? Is the customer profile? Basically, go back to the validation stage. I speak from experience. It's an awful place to be. You've got this pride about your company and your product and your idea and you think everybody is watching you. But I can tell you, friend, nobody is watching you. It's okay to change your mind. Uh, it's okay to, uh, course correct. I think the second piece of advice and Ramli, I know I sound like a broken record here, but Target Customer paying buying points.

Speaker A: I love it. So good. Awesome, man. Uh, thank you so much for Target Customer. Is there anything else you add to? You tattooed it to your body, Big tattoo, of course. But it's just such a great, great final point. Uh, to end on one final question, where can people find out more about you? Where can people find out more about that course? Uh, and yeah, where do you want to send people tuning in right now?

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, so probably the best place to go to find out about me is on Twitter. Um, I am, um, Mark Thomas. That's Mark with a C. I, uh, guess Ramli will put it in the show notes. Um, but then M. Uh, the other place you can go to find me in my day job, uh, is poweredbysearch.com we, uh, have a great blog, many podcasts. Um, I genuinely believe our, ah, content is the best content about SaaS marketing in B2B on the Internet. Um, and uh, much of it was done before I arrived, so I'm not blowing my own horn too much. But uh, you can find out about my course on my Twitter profile. It's pinned tweet currently and uh, by this time this show airs. Hopefully still will be. But otherwise message me.

Speaker A: Awesome marketing. So much for your time. I appreciate it.

Speaker B: It's been an absolute pleasure. We finally did it. Ramley.

Speaker A: Yeah, awesome. Thank you.

Speaker B: I love it.

Speaker C: Well, that's it for this episode. Thank you for listening all the way until the very end in this episode with Mark. I hope you learned a lot about early stage growth playbook here. Before we end, I just want to thank once again the sponsor for this episode, 42 agency. They are a plug and play demand generation and marketing operations agency for B2B sales. SaaS companies that are ready to scale. You can check them out at, uh 42 agency GMT to get free $500 in consulting time. If you'd like to support the show. You've been getting a ton of value from it. There's three easy ways. First of all, subscribe if you haven't already done so and tell a friend about the show. This is how most shows grow is through word of mouth. Second, leave review on Apple Podcasts. Even if you're not using Apple Podcasts, 70 to 80% of the show's listeners are from there and leaving a review helps more people get to know about the show. And third, you can subscribe to the mailing list at. Ah, Growth Today fm. Um, well, that's it for this episode. This is your host family, John. Keep safe and as always, keep on growing.