GCUC Podcast - Jean-Yves Huwart, Coworking Europe

Liz Elam: Foreign. Hey, welcome to the Juicy podcast where we explore the future of co working community and the spaces that bring people together. I'm Liz Elam. I am the founder of Juicy. Today's guest is one of my favorite people. He's been building the European co working story from the very beginning. Jean Yves Hewart is the founder of Co Working Europe, the longest running co working conference in the world, and the founder of Social Workplaces. He has been documenting the future of work in Europe for well over a decade. From Brussels, Jean Yves has had a front row seat to every wave in this industry that has been ridden. The highs, the lows, the pivots, the comebacks. This year he's bringing the conference to Paris and we're going to talk about why Paris, what the focus is for Co Working Europe this year, and the question I really want him to answer, which is why are you still bullish on this industry? But we're going to get that to that in a minute because first I want to say welcome, Jean Yves. How are you today?

Jean-Yves Huwart: Hi, Lis. Thank you for having me. Um, um, I'm good, I'm good. Summer is back in Belgium. It was a rainy period during a long time. And all of a sudden we are good with sunny lightful day now. So everybody's smiling. That's great.

Liz Elam: Love it.

Jean-Yves Huwart: You don't disagree?

Liz Elam: Yeah, yeah. Somebody had the audacity to walk down the street. My podcast studios in my home, as everyone can tell. Um, okay, so before we go anywhere, I want to hear about your morning routine. Because I feel like my morning routine is something that really sets me up for success. So I'm always interested in what other people are doing. So tell me about it.

Jean-Yves Huwart: What can I say? Uh, I wake up. I, uh, usually read a lot of stuff before I stand up. Um, yeah, I have my chore before having breakfast. I know whether this is good or not. Uh, I go through the news. I go through the news for cork in Europe and what is happening while I'm breakfast, my coffee and um, usual stuff I have. I'm not very exceptional. And then, uh, either I work from home that day if I schedule some other things to do, or head to my coworking space which is like 25 minutes away from my home.

Liz Elam: Love it, Love it. That's a great routine. And I love that you don't like, are you immediately, like, are you immediately grabbing your phone or how are you reading?

Jean-Yves Huwart: Oh, no, I'm old, efficient. Uh, I take a tablet, so the phone is for later. So everything related to WhatsApp and things like that. It's for later, but, um, I still check my emails. Yes, totally.

Liz Elam: Yeah, yeah, but everybody knows that about me. If you don't want a response, LinkedIn

Jean-Yves Huwart: is only after coffee.

Liz Elam: Yeah. Oh, good, good. Good to know. Okay. All right. So why after 16 years, are you still doing this?

Jean-Yves Huwart: Um, I'm not tired of it. I know we discussed about it.

Liz Elam: Uh, yeah, we talked about it recently,

Jean-Yves Huwart: but it's by far the longest I've ever been in something, uh, professionally. Um, as you know, I used to be a business journalist during 12 years, which is the less boring job you can imagine normally. Uh, still was bored after 12 years. And here, as you said, 16 years doesn't make me younger. Look younger, definitely. But yeah, I don't have this feeling maybe also because, yeah, I'm so, you know, I'm standalone. Uh, uh, I have my own small company, so it makes me feel, um, things looks different. Every day is different. Uh, so sometime, indeed, uh, you know, more than anyone, it's. It can be a roller coaster. But, uh, at the end of the day, you use the day are going through very fast and. Or in the evening, you know, almost in a second. And I, um, guess it's an indication that, um, you are doing things that are worth doing. And we have.

Liz Elam: And I think, I think the other thing is, is you and I both are running our conferences as businesses. They're not nonprofits, they're not associations. So, you know, we can make decisions, we can move very quickly. We don't have to get board approval for anything. So I think that the, the fact we're able to be so nimble is really helpful in the conference business. The other thing I think is interesting is there's recently a post on LinkedIn where somebody was like, conferences are dead. And I weighed in on it and was like, well, yeah, bad conferences are dead. Good conferences that are changing and evolving are actually needed more than ever. And then I was on Instagram this morning and everything was about how in person events is the future. And I happen to agree. I think we're so disconnected. I think we're going to become more disconnected with AI and solopreneurs. And I think conferences are doing nothing but excelling. And your conference in Berlin was a testament to that. Last year in Berlin, y', all, Jan had over 500 attendees, um, which is fantastic. And you hadn't seen that since when. But you had had 500 once before, hadn't you?

Jean-Yves Huwart: We had 600. Yeah. Before COVID we had that in Amsterdam. And Warsaw almost. But it was not the same attendance in the way that uh, the. The market was not as mature as it is today. So, um, it's not totally the same industry it was before COVID Now you have, it's more professional, you have bigger player, you speak about things that, you know, were not something necessarily addressed back in the days. So, um, hard to say, but in terms of, in terms of vanity metric, indeed 600 was higher than 500. But in terms of um, real impacts, the um, business dimension, et cetera, we, yeah, we are way higher than we used to be back then. Um, so yeah, and the level discussion is different. There are players, you know, who were overlooking us m over linking us for many years. And the last years they come with five, ten people sometimes. Um, and indeed we feel like we are in the heart of something bigger happening. And um, I guess we are one thermometer for that. We are sensor to gauge whether something is happening. Um, and as for, I think any industry which is maturing, you know, uh, you have a number of things that are happening. So having some bigger events is also an indication that something is happening, that it's sustainable enough or big enough to sustain a bigger conference, bring more players and also enlarge the discussion to all the different stakeholders than we used to have. Uh, as you know, 15 years ago, co working was really more almost cultural thing that we, okay, we are freelancers and we resolve the narrative about the community and we are not alone and we can break. But now it's really about the change, uh, much bigger change, which is touching, about the new way, so the end of the lease contract to some extent for offices. So that is touching something which is huge because it might be the second or biggest or third biggest uh, economical sector, this real estate thing. And when you start to speak about such things, indeed you are involved in dynamic that is so big that sometimes it can be overwhelming and hard to keep touch with everything. Um, but we also at the heart of what is happening in terms of hybrid working, the new ways of working, digitization of companies, organization, urban development. Um, that's what makes it also very exciting that uh, through this lens of co working and what has happened in the beginning, we are now in the middle of a transformation that this once in a century, or maybe m Even uh, less frequent, uh, change in our society and our economies. So. So from that perspective, it's great. Yeah, Yeah.

Liz Elam: I feel really, um. I know this is going to sound really weird, but I feel really lucky, um, that I got to live through Covid like it was a bizarre and unreal thing to live through. And now AI to me is just so exciting and so um, revolutionary. Like I think we're getting to live through some really exciting times and part of that for me is you know, knowing that coworking is you know, really around 2% of the market. Like our, our uphill climb is so vast and so exciting and that's part of the reason. And I'm like you, I'm not bored at all. I am constantly learning. I'm constantly evolving, constantly trying to be better and do better and help coworking grow and thrive and, and it's really, really fun. So walk me through how you picked Paris and what's really exciting about that market because it is a different market.

Jean-Yves Huwart: Yeah, so. So um, as you know the um, lighthouse of Corking Worldwide is London. So, so they are. It's so much advanced, so dense, it's so professional, it's leading the way and everybody hopes that ultimately we will all look like what is happening in London. Um, some cities are ah, at least for the on in Europe are uh, going through that same process and you know, are not so far away from what London um, is experiencing. Um, Amsterdam is one of them for instance and Paris is definitely one another. Uh, but what is happening so in Paris what is the biggest, how to say tipping point is all of a sudden you have this product to manage office that came in which is not new to some extent. You know you have player like GP Workspace Group in um, in, in the UK that have been doing something like that for a long time. But um, now it's, it's, it's, it has taken off and somehow being part of the Flex Watch space and corking industry as well.

Liz Elam: Real quick, what is Managed Office to you?

Jean-Yves Huwart: So Managed office is a private co working area. So it's all operated. So uh, it's turnkey. You have the facilities. Sometimes you have some community management, sometimes it's adjacent to a regular co working space with the common um, areas, social areas and it can be part of it or sometimes not. But basically the service, it's when you are too big to have a private office in a co working space but still you want to get the flexibility, the short term everything ready, the scalability, uh, you don't want to bother with facility management stuff etc. You don't want to negotiate this contract.

Liz Elam: Yeah, that thing also called Fractional Office, also called Flex Office, also called managed services, also called space as a service.

Jean-Yves Huwart: Yes, yes and no. Because fractional Office for us again and we have this huge issue with the vocabulary that is used everywhere um or sometimes people disagreeing in the same city about what they do and how they want to call it but managed uh M Office is more like they call it in France Bureau PR which means operated office literally. Um but you could say of say service um feeds sometimes it's everything is a little bit overlapping. But the good news is that everybody understand that somehow it's part of the same family uh of products that are service oriented, more flexible. Um, you provide with all in services. You don't have to care about anything which is related to the furniture, the WI fi, anything uh, even security sometimes et cetera. And what is striking is that it has happened over the last two years I would say in Paris. And it's also due to the rise of very strong players that focused on that this product and also the fact that you have also a ah range of new independent players, um flexible brokers that are really focused on those service and flexible products who have perfect knowledge of the offering, know all the operators and we're able to really start from the discussion with the future occupier to understand exactly where the need was where and really uh, propose them the right, the right fit for them in terms of, of holding kind of uh product and you know in terms of capacity it comes from like 50 people up to 200 something like that. It's not. So once it's bigger then you come into another dimension as well. But you know players such as uh wework also do that. But it's not publicly advertised uh or things like that. But the impression it gives is that all of a sudden it filled in a missing link in the market and the understanding of what the market was full flex coworking et cetera. And it means that the key number here is that in 2025 in Paris 35% of the office take up was manage uh office and flex.

Liz Elam: Wow.

Jean-Yves Huwart: So that's huge. Huge. So of course we come from very low. So 35% of the ticket doesn't mean that the whole stock noise flex but it shows that the trend is really strong and you hear more and more about the stories and um, where we believe it's great to be in Paris for that. We will explain what happened over the last two years. We have a couple of keynotes. Um but it shows also um that traditional co working operators who sometimes especially in Europe have been struggling profit wise, um can here find ways to develop a new product and new offering that can diversify their revenue generation. Also taking into account the relative of hd. Of course Paris is, you know, Paris, it's all the buildings, it's very dense, it's compact. Uh, so you can do. It's not Manhattan. So you can do the same thing you do in Paris than you do in Marathon or most spread out city like Berlin. Um, but still it means that um, no, for growing number of companies and organization, um, there is this little music that says okay, uh, in one, two, three years when your lease contract is ending, just don't go to your regular broker and look for a new floor, uh, or new building to lease for another 10 years. Um, and a big deal of them still are considering shrinking it anyway because of uncertainty or the decrease in and the people that needs to be in the office and hybrid working, et cetera. Um, but now they could say okay, we can still consider the traditional list but we will also have a look at what is offered by the service provider. And um, from the discussion we have with the French prayer there this where we start to feel something happening there that it's, it's, it's ultimately come on the rider of a bigger range of players.

Liz Elam: Hey guys, just breaking in to let you know if you would like to join us in the uk. We've got an event coming up in Manchester and one in London. You can get more details on that at UK Juicy Co and Africa Juicy Co. We've got an event coming up in September in Cape Town that we're super excited, excited about. We want to learn what's going on in Africa and we want to pour everything we can into that continent. If you'd like to have a Juicy ad or be a podcast guest or talk to us about sponsorship or anything else, just hit us up at Infoc. Uh co. Talk to you soon. I also think it's really interesting. One of the things I saw in Berlin that I forgot about until you mentioned it, that I'm glad you mentioned again was the flexible brokers. Um, because it's interesting, like in the UK the brokers are really running the show still just traditional commercial brokers. In the US the brokers are being utilized less and less and in Europe they're pivoting to flexible brokers, which is really, really an interesting trend that we're not seeing anywhere else.

Jean-Yves Huwart: And it's a, it's, it's really an expertise, a new expertise to be built. Because when you speak with some of them, um, the story is very often the same that they start with a conversation with what you need and especially in this range of company that's in the scale up mode. So they started 1020 et cetera. Especially in Paris which is one of the metro uh 10 biggest metro in the world while VC money comes there etc. So you have a lot of stories like this and they have been educated with the co working mood, the co working culture. But the co working even. Even uh.

Liz Elam: Uh.

Jean-Yves Huwart: Private offices for 30 people. 30 desk is too small for them. And then they feel squeezed and they need to move us. But they still appreciate the fact that they have the all in service. So they. But on the other hand they need some specificities or if they are. If you remember in building with this example with the. The gaming industry where I didn't know that for instance power let have to be different because the streets need more power. So you can. If you are a developer in the gaming industry you can't just use the regular port let use the co working space. You need something which is adaptive.

Liz Elam: Yeah.

Jean-Yves Huwart: Uh. And here is this will be the same. The same story and based on that, based on okay we have more people coming from this area uh. Or people want this considered this thing more than another. They. Because all those. Those and sometimes they're very young. It's very interesting because they spend a lot of time visiting all the. All the. All the locations. So some. Some big players focus on manage office. You know they. They operate more than 100 locations. That's they. They are not small players at all. And um. So and. And. And those. Those intermediaries because they invest the time and know a new person and also the people um. They close the deals and maybe traditional brokers that we know um Remain focused on the big guys, the big corporates, the big number, et cetera. There is this slice of the market that is becoming more and more important that was when addressed so far was not the priority for them and left the door opens for this new generation of players sometimes with a lot of improvements as managers of cotton space actually and now it's paying off and but true it's Paris it's that you have the volume, you have everything.

Liz Elam: Um.

Jean-Yves Huwart: But enough time you start to see those players also rising up and getting uh. More deal uh that are um. Broken and I think it's. But it's a regular pathway that you go through when an industry is maturing. You need those kind of new intermediaries you to need new crafts, new expertise that you know uh. Put the hole in the cogs and makes everything you know turn better at the end of the day.

Liz Elam: I love going to your event every year. I always write my megatrends after it. It's a great way to kind of focus on where the conversation is heading and I really appreciate it. So what is the focus for coworking Europe in Paris besides Managed Office which is definitely going to be talked about. What are the themes and the conversations that you're really leaning into because you do your conference way in advance in terms of planning than I do which I deeply respect.

Jean-Yves Huwart: Yeah, we try to address uh you know the key, some cutting edge topics and what is you know what is challenging in the market at some time. So of course AI, it's a big thing. Uh, so there was the AI from the perspective oh can your operation be run better uh from as a co working operator and there is AI as. So we will have a discussion with um about um how AI changes the way companies are organized so that you know, with the split between you know focus time, social time. But um, but, but actually it exists. It already existed but it's even stronger now. But how do you translate those new way to organize into your coworking of Frank at the end of the day because there's been more social areas, there's more mixture and when you speak with some operators they definitely have to consider that because the way the companies were using the space four years ago is not the same today because of AI. Um so we will address that for sure. Um, um the role the as okay I, I, I told about it but of course the role of this do in the mid ris what what can be the role can be, be better or because there is this, this, this you know uh hatred love relationship between brokers and operators because the operators say it's too costly, they take us too much money and on the other hand they need it, they need them uh to generate those leads and be uh connected especially for the bigger leads. So how can the collaboration works better? Um so it will be a big part also of uh understanding those changes in what companies are looking for nowadays. Um really to try to better feel what the market says. Uh and how can you adjust on that and be right about what you propose and offer. Profitability of course will be a big topic as well. Uh because in Europe uh you have heard of consolidation Germany maybe to cover Design Office which was the biggest independent player 50 location in Germany, big one. Um but because the profitability was not high enough despite them being the biggest or one of the biggest in Germany. Um so there was still a legacy from the past that some big players still have to deal with, um, because they paid twice or their product was not properly positioned or properly understood. Um, and here, step by step, how can we learn from those who are really profitable, made the things right, uh, in order to at the end of the day really have ah, more robust players, uh, who, you know, uh, another situation where they try to just spend half of the time trying to find someone ready to buy them. Um, yeah, some countries are struggling with that, uh, as well. So whereas the demand is super high. We all know about that.

Liz Elam: Yeah. So from your seat in Brussels, I'm curious, having just been to Juicy in the US And I think you just went to an event in London, what is it that Europe's really getting right, and where is it that they're kind of behind in the rest of the world?

Jean-Yves Huwart: Um, as you know, in Europe. So diversity of course is something that is striking. Um, it's, um, we don't have European champions, so it's not like in the US or even in Asia you have Asian champions. Yeah, we have some international players, but it's, they are not setting the tone. So maybe IWG is still being the biggest in some countries, but, uh, in quite a decent number of countries in Europe, their local players still are running the show. Um, and they are very good in their very market. But the thing is, okay, how far can you go? How long can you live only from your market or your home city? So, but there, the products are very interesting. They have a lot of personality, which matters of course. Um, and what is done less well maybe is indeed this ability to scale up internationally. So which is just what happens when it's important to focus on the right market and because good where you are. Um, uh, and some people would say, uh, it's irrelevant for us to be international because the synergies are local and not international to what honesty they might be. Right. Uh, even some champions in the US they are focused on Texas or uh, the west coast or Boston with world war. And so this is something specific also to this industry and, and the business growing. But, but they may be less good in um, uh, you know, building up a standardized replicable product. Ah, that you can repeat and repeat and repeat again in order to reach scales and be stronger, et cetera. There, there are sometimes you see that, um, as opposed to the US where you have some players who really think like that and just, you know, very fast to replicate, uh, all this dislocation with the same standard and focus. Maybe some might say that, yeah, it lacks personality at the end of the day, because it looks the same everywhere. But the advantage of this model is indeed that you have very robust players thanks to that.

Liz Elam: Yeah, yeah, that makes good sense. Okay, crazy last question. So looking across the next few years, what's one thing about the future of coworking that you're genuinely excited about and what's the thing we need to drop like right now?

Jean-Yves Huwart: Tough one, tough one. Um, excited is indeed that we are touching more and more things. Uh, so for instance we, the tech, you know, this thing about the startup world and tech ups, et cetera. During a long, very long time we figured out that it was separate worlds, you know, tech hubs. We are not co working, we are accelerators or we are whatever, incubators etc, but, but the more we move forward the more you see those guys, they also need to run the meeting rooms. They also need to be competitive with the pricing, have the right location. Um, so, so there is a convergence on that. So in ah, integrating this world of uh, incubators and startup, um, you know, so operate so ecosystem that are hosted in a building and at the end of the day what are co working? Um, this is making us again more relevant for what is happening in the economy now. So it's a station F, you know, this is the biggest incubator in Europe, it's ah, very well known in Paris, um, the companies that are hosted just as station F, which I don't ah, 14,000 square meters I think something like that. Um, there is 1.5 billion euro last year. So they are an engine generating uh, a capital pool uh, of 1.5 billion euro. So this means that for economies we are becoming very structuring and very important so that to get just one example, we see that in the biotech sector and medical houses, things like that, it's the same process, it's service oriented, it's flexible. Um, changing the real estate world on a big scale and being part of that is really exciting. And what we should um, stomp lying to ourselves about the fact that profit, profitability still an issue in this market, ah, and address it the right way. And if not, no, we have too many taboos. Um, vocabulary again is one issue. But um, um and we need to face things as they are and not like we dream it was like 10 years ago.

Liz Elam: Yeah, yeah, okay, I lied. One more question. What question should I have asked you? But I didn't and then you get to answer it of course. Basically do my um, job for me.

Jean-Yves Huwart: Where, where and where, where when and where is the Conference.

Liz Elam: Right? Good question.

Jean-Yves Huwart: So the conference is in Paris. It will take place in the Pullman Hotel in Montparnasse, which is a huge hotel. It's. We have uh, 1800 square meter of venue which is huge. We uh, expect 600 people, uh, 50, 50 countries represented. Every topics will be addressed. Hopefully we uh, have a nice tour of the co working spaces in Paris. You will enjoy it dramatically. I guess. You will have the most palace looking kind of co working space and also very innovative ones. So everybody, we are very happy because now we will see that the French ecosystem is getting engaged and excited about the fact that we are work in Europe is taking place in Paris and it's on November 5 and 6. And it's 6 is a Friday so you can stay over on the weekend if you want to enjoy the Paris delights. And um, early November can still be sunny.

Liz Elam: And if you are not using this opportunity to write off a trip to Paris, what are you even doing with your life? I mean really, you need to go examine everything if you're not going to Paris and you're in co working.

Jean-Yves Huwart: Exactly, exactly. You remember the. The Olympics two years ago in Paris?

Liz Elam: Mhm, mhm.

Jean-Yves Huwart: It will be better.

Liz Elam: Yeah. Excellent. I love that. Better than the Olympics. That should be your tagline.

Jean-Yves Huwart: Exactly.

Liz Elam: I would. I remember about the co working tours I went on. What year was that that you were there? Like 2012. Yeah, 2012. You were in Paris. And I just remember I have all these photos because there were all these amazing staircases. But definitely wear your trainers on the tour because you're going to do a lot of steps. So it's a workout and coworking tours. So you have that going for you as well.

Jean-Yves Huwart: Um, so they wear no you burden. They wear no you bro. Then no, no, they are there.

Liz Elam: Well, thank you so much. It's such a pleasure having you on and I love counting you as a friend who makes me laugh all the time.

Jean-Yves Huwart: Thank you Lisa.

Liz Elam: Thank you for everything you've built for this industry. I don't. I think most people know I've talked about it a bunch of times. Before I started Juicy, the first thing I did was go to Co Working Europe and talk to Jean Yves and we've been friends ever since. So the European coworking store would not be where it is without Gen Yves. And I can't wait to join you on stage in Paris again. And thanks to everyone for listening to the Juicy podcast. If you enjoyed this conversation, please take a moment to like and follow and subscribe. Subscribe. So you never miss an episode about the future of co working and community. If you want to keep the conversation going in person, our next Juicy is in September in Cape Town in Africa. You can get tickets at Africa Juicy Co, or you can head to the fabulous London scene in October and get tickets at UK GC co. And if you want to be connected 247365 we do have Juicy membership where where you can be connected with your peers and get resources and stay connected to me. I'm in it every single day. So thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on the Juicy Podcast.