#013 Joe Souza - Saying Yes to a Church Planting Journey

Speaker A: You are listening to GC Talk with Bo Ellis. This show is produced by Great Commission Partnerships in Tampa, Florida to bring you inspiration and conversation with pastors, church planters and missions leaders who are making disciples of our Lord Jesus Christ, locally, nationally and around the world.

Speaker B: Hello friends, and welcome to Gctalk, where today we're talking the Great Commission with Apique, who grew up in Rio and Louisville. So how is it that Pastor Joe Souza ended up planting bilingual churches in Boston? Good question and a better one. How did he go on to have a legacy impact on church planting across a region that once hosted the first Great Awakening and by 2010 had become one of the least evangelical places in the U.S. let's find out how Souza set out to change all that as a pastor and church planter, as a catalyst with the North American Mission Board, and currently as associate Executive director with the Baptist Churches of New England and a founder of the Celebration Church Planting Network in Brazil. We're blessed to call him pastor, mentor and friend. So let's welcome in Pastor Joe all the way from Northborough, Mass. Where the heck is Northborough, Joe?

Speaker A: Hey, Bo. It's the Joe Bo show and I'm here in Northborough.

Speaker B: Yes, it is.

Speaker A: We're serving the state of Massachusetts in the middle of the state of Massachusetts. I'm here directly from, uh, the home of Luther Rice, which is the site of the Baptist Churches of New England where I serve as an associate executive director. Exciting times, man, to be here.

Speaker B: It is, it's still Greater Boston, but it's um, I guess it'd be the southwest kind of suburbs. Um, as you head out, as you head out toward Foxborough in the Patriots games, you'd head out that way, but

Speaker A: southwest out west on the Mass pike at night.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Place to be.

Speaker B: Yep. The home of the BCNE where we now have the, the upstairs, you know, library built out. Talk to us a little bit about how the BCNE has been tracking these these past few years.

Speaker A: Well, this is a great facility, like I said, beside of, um, Luther Reis, uh, where he was born. And we, we have a lodging there where uh, he used to live. And we can receive missionaries here in this facility. We sort of revamp the second floor to become a multiplication center. We are about, you know, multiplying Christ follower through, you know, equipping and encouraging and departing into churches. So our second floor has been revamped. We have a recording studio, we have a cafe. We have some rooms there with pretty cool, you know, high end technology. And you can do webinars and live trainings and it's, it's really cool. And the cool part about it is, um, our second generation here. There's a group called Mission Force that I've been, I have the pleasure to start in investing there. It's uh, it's an investment in new young second generation leaders. This is the term that we use. And um, they were the ones who did all of the revamping and the decorating. So it's very, it's very, you know, second gen friendly. You know, the younger kids, the younger generation really love it. And we've been using that to do trainings and seminars and webinars and podcasts. So it's a really cool place now.

Speaker B: Well, no surprise, a lot of those second gen leaders are Brazilians. And that's how I kind of back into to how a Brazilian from Rio de Janeiro like you ends up serving in New England. And it was, um, I guess your dad, um, Roberto got called up to New England and I wanted to walk through, um, you know, kind of your journey as a pastor's kid in Rio de Janeiro, where you were growing up. Um, this show is all about calling and wrestling with calling and missions and folks saying yes to either going or sending. We're all in it, uh, together. So talk to us about your journey as a son of a pastor and how was that calling evident for you? And question, do you feel like it's easier or harder for MKS and PKs to wrestle with that calling?

Speaker A: And I don't even know if I've ever figured that one out, Bo. And we've had a lot of conversations about this throughout the years. But my story is my story. I was born in Rio. My dad was, was a pastor there. And uh, you know, I, I grew up as a pastor's kid. And some, I hear some, uh, pastor's kids say that they had a tough time as children. I, that wasn't my experience. My parents really, um, treated me as a normal child. And um, you know, I really didn't have many issues with being a pastor's skater or revolting or frustrations or any expectations, uh, near my sister. Uh, uh, it was just a normal family upbringing. And they used to call me, you know, little pastor, Pastor Zinho, as they would say in Portuguese. Hey, little pastor. You know, pastor. At church. Sometimes I would feel annoyed. I never thought I would be a pastor. I didn't want to be a pastor. You know, growing up I saw my dad, you know, being the pastor and what it takes to be a shepherd, uh, and in the local church. And I just thought this is not for me. So much so that I, I uh, grew up, graduated, went to law school and then, um, went to communication, studied journalism and just had a different career path. I wanted to be a diplomat. Um, but then, you know, after some time, after having worked for about 50, 15 years in the corporate world, God captured my heart. And I, I always say that, you know, we can run from the call, we can run from the vocation, but the call runs faster than us and it always catches up with us, you know what I mean? So my, my vocational call, you know, to, to full time ministry call, if, if I can use that term, you know, because I think everybody has a full time ministry. But anyway, a full vocational to be a pastor. Paul, um, came later in life. I was married, by the way. My wife Patricia was told when we were dating and when we got married that I would never be a pastor because she said, yeah, I don't know about being a pastor's wife and whatnot. So I promised her, I said, um, no, it's, it's okay, honey. I'm never going to be a pastor. I was a, you know, highly paid executive in the airline industry. I was doing well when we got married. And so I said, no, I'm not going to exchange this life for, you know, a vocational role for a pastor. I'm just gonna be like a quote unquote normal person. Well now, you know, uh, 12 to 15 years later, here we are, uh, moving from Brazil to San Orlando, Florida, which I do miss, um, to help, um, a Brazilian church there in Orlando. And that's where my, you know, full time vocational ministry, uh, began, you know. And so just to answer your question, I, I had a normal upbringing. It, I don't, in my case, it really wasn't tough or tougher being a pastor's kid, you know, and uh, sensing the calling, understanding the calling or even, you know, being being raised as a pastor's kid and understanding that I, I had to have my own personal, uh, relationship with Jesus. So I guess that's, you know, that's, that's the bottom line. A PK mk we all need our, or not, we all need our personal relationship to Jesus. We need to find our way, you know, to God or back to God. So yeah.

Speaker B: And your journey was what, as your dad was studying in Louisville, um, here you are, this Brazilian kid and you're growing up kind of part way, part time in Louisville and then back to Rio and then um, somehow that, that did the career path Take you to Orlando or was it the, the call to vocational ministry that landed you there?

Speaker A: Yeah, so I was um. One interesting thing about the calling and the career path is that God doesn't waste anything in our lives. I think my um, my time in the corporate world was probably, you know, the best seminary training that I had because I learned stuff there, uh, how to be with people and how to relate with God and how to be a, how to be a, you know, a Christian voice, um, in, in the corporate world outside of the, you know, quote unquote church bubble or seminary bubble. And so what, what took me to Orlando was, you know, I, I let go of my career. I had to say no. Which is probably another really important lesson slash paradigm in saying yes to a calling. You have to say no to probably a lot of stuff that you want, that you like, that you desire and you have to say no to, to embrace the calling. So I said no to my career and I said yes to uh, the calling. When we moved to Orlando and um, it was a total, not even leap, it was a probably a triple somersault of faith because um, we were letting go of a huge comfort zone. You know, we lived, we had a really comfortable financial situation, Brazil. And we, we let go of that to embrace the unknown. You know. And saying uh, no to the career meant saying you know, yes to God and yes to ministry and yes to faith, which is the big unknown. And that was scary. Um, it's still scary until this day. Uh, I just turned 60 last month and you know, I was uh, 30 something. So you know, this is almost 30 years of um, ministry career that I still. It's scary saying yes to Jesus each and every day. It's not just when you let go of your career to start vocational ministry is when you let go of a lot of daily, you know, day to day pleasures and activities to say yes to the next steps. Oh yeah, the calling thing is tricky and like I said, I don't even know if I've ever figured it out quite out. Um, but it's just the capacity to lean on the yes that God is, you know, requesting of you and letting go of the uh, you know, the no, uh, to um, letting go of the things that you appreciate, what you desire, that you want to accomplish. So when we moved to Orlando that was the case. You know, just embracing the unknown, saying yes and the unknown, but saying yes to the God who you know, we had to trust, would, would, would provide. And those, those are some very challenging times. But they were also Very, um, profitable times in terms of learning and understanding. You know what though? We talk about faith and our faith a lot, but when it comes, when it comes time to live it out, man, that's where the rubber hits the road. So I used to talk about, you know, my faith and it was all, all good and comfy, you know, making a comfortable salary, living in a, and a really nice house, you know, and I had a music, um, studio on the third floor, you know, a nice swimming pool. Gated community. That's easy, uh, it's easy to say God in those conditions. But when he says, well, I want you to let go of that and embrace the unknown. We, we have experiences with God that are totally different than when we are in our comfort, um, zone. So that was sort of the, the story, uh, when we moved to Orlando to work with, you know, the first Brazilian Baptist, uh, church there in Orlando. There are about 20, 25 members, much different than the church that we were a part of. And we were practically founding members of uh, the church in Rio, which today is, I think the fifth largest Baptist church in Brazil. We helped in the planting phase of that church and when we left it was a much bigger church and we landed in Orlando, like, you know, there were 20, 25 people. So a new challenge and a new call. And as, as the church grew, so did I. Um, because that's what, what God does when we, you know, he calls us, he provides for us, he gives us a pathway for growth. And when we partner with him and we, we just give in to his, his calling and his prompting, uh, it's good. And as I look back, I mean, I kind of miss those days because, you know, they were pioneer days and days of experimenting new things. I'm an innovator, as you know well. And um, you know, the innovation of the newness of a fresh walk with God, it was a total reset. But diving in head first to the calling was the best decision that I've made in my life. And if you ask my wife, by the way, she'll say it's the best decision we've ever made. And if you ask my children, they will probably tell you the same thing. It is the best decision. Our family has been totally, uh, impacted by, um, you know, this, this ministry call. And we have been, we understand that we have been called even as a family because my, my, my children all engaged, involved not only in church planting, but in leading the, the min. Church that we planted up here in Boston.

Speaker B: Amen. And that's um, God doesn't waste anything. And I, I just think it's awesome, you know, I too kind of came into full time vocational ministry later in life with a family. And um, I just. It's been 16 years since I met you and Patricia and Jackie and Julie and Nikki. 16 years. You can't even believe that time has flown, you know, that fast. And you look at how God doesn't waste anything. And I love that we kind of began with where you are now in your role with the bcne and we didn't even mention you're still pastoring Celebration Church with Pastor Josh in Middleton. Um, but you spent many, many years up in Boston. Uh, basically mentoring, coaching, helping other guys come to New England and plant their lives, plant their wives, their kids, plant their families and plant churches. So how did you get from Orlando up to Boston? I know it was the First Brazilian Baptist Church of Charlestown that you came as a music pastor. Even if I remember right, what year was that and how did that transition into your role with NAM as the church planting catalyst over that region? Talking about God. God doesn't waste anything. That was an amazing role.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, uh, I was a musician back in Rio and when I moved to Orlando, I was like the music, the worship pastor at the church in Orlando. And after five or six years there, we discerned a distinct call. It was like impressive. God just shut down a bunch of doors in Orlando. Um, September 11th in 2001 was, was a huge door that I had a business that we, I was a bivocational, um, pastor there. And so my business basically shut down. God shut down that door. I, I scrambled to, you know, make a living for my family and just God said, well, your time here is done. It was a very distinct and clear call. And I, um, understood that it was time for me to move up to Massachusetts. You know, leave the, the warm weather of Orlando and move up to the, the cold winters of Massachusetts to plant a church. I had never planted, uh, before as a league pastor, I had been um, involved in church planting, just, you know, in real helping other people and you know, even from a distance and because I had a full time career and job. So when I understood that God was calling us to plant Celebration Church up here in Boston, it was really scary, really intimidating. But I had the certainty that that's what we had to do. So when I moved to Boston, I, uh, moved. Uh, I was actually hired by the First Brazilian Baptist Church here as an associate pastor. Um, Pastor Nassif was the pastor there. The First Brazilian Baptist Church in Charlestown. And, uh, for at least a decade, it was the largest, uh, church in the association here in Greater Boston. When I moved there, there were about 850 members. And if you know anything about ministry up here in Boston, 850 members is a. Is like a megachurch, uh, especially if it's an immigrant church. You know, 850 immigrants in one church. That's, like, not a mega church. It's the Miracle Church. And so when I moved there, they were looking for an associate pastor. Um, there was another pastor. They are already in the final stages of, like, being voted in. But for some weird reason, which is, of course, the will of God, um, it didn't work out for him. And I was just around at the right place at the right time. I had been there for a few months, and the pastor, Pastor Nassif, pitched a vision to the church, saying, hey, we need to plant churches. And here we have a Brazilian pastor who speaks English. He understands the culture. So let's hire him not only as an associate pastor, but as a church planter trainee, uh, you know, apprentice, and then he'll, you know, multiply from here. And there was a plan to start 10 churches within 20 years. So that's how I got involved in the Brazilian church, which was God's way of providing for me, because I was, you know, for lack of a better word, you know, I was a knucklehead. And I just wanted to do things and do stuff. And Pastor Nasif said, hey, you need to take at least, you know, a year and a half, two years to learn the ropes, get acclimated to the culture. And so that's what I did. Um, I spent time with people, spent time training, spent time learning the culture, spent time learning the context, the do's and don'ts, the rhythms of New England, which are totally different than Florida, totally different than Brazil. And so the contextualization piece of learning, um, how to, uh, access people in, learning to think how people think was an intricate part of this church planning process, which is sometimes what we try to, you know, speed up. But it takes time, you know, for you to get to know the people and interact. And so in this process, I started, uh, celebrating church in the confines of our mother church there in, um, Charlestown. So the morning service was in English, which is how we kicked off the church. And after about a year and a half, uh, about a year after we had kicked off as a. As a church plant, I, uh, received an invitation from a newly, uh, appointed missions director here in New England. And he came to me and said, hey, I'm looking for somebody to, um, help attract other church planters, help mentor and coach other church planters. And I'm thinking, this guy's crazy. You know, I'm just a year and a few months into the process. And then, um, came to, found out later, you know, his name was Steve Nerger. When, when he hired me as a church planning catalyst for bcme, he said, well, just, just let me tell you this. Um, there were 16 people that went through basic training here at the BCME and the room next door of the 16, 13 of us. And I was involved in those 16, 13 of us launched either a, ah, small group or a public gathering or a church. Of those 13, uh, two years later, two and a half years later, I was the only one still around. Wow. So it was like he said, you know, in other words, he was saying, hey, you're the option of the lack of options.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: The only one who made it 21 still standing, man. So if we have a, if we have a, a minimum chance of, you know, getting a, a practitioner, even if it's 1, 2 years old, uh, in interest, planting, that's what God has. And then, you know, I thought about it and prayed about it and you know, took on the challenge. And that was another one of my, you know, growth periods. And once again I state, God does not waste, you know, past experiences because my past experiences in the corporate world in ministry, you know, in Orlando, um, in college, in seminary, everything just uh, kicked in. And the learning curve was, was, I guess, shorter M. Because of that and because of the advice that I received and it had not always followed from past and I see, get acclimated to the culture before you start, you know, doing, performing, you know, um, understanding the context. It all kicked in and I was able to share even the, you know, the one and a half year or one year and two months experiences that I had, I started sharing with other guys and you know, they were a year, two years behind, you know, where I was, my, uh, my stays been, uh, in the church planning process. So it was, you know, it was, it was beautiful. But God led the charge, of course. And in that process, I think I was the one who had the most growth and the most opportunities, um, to grow in ministry, to grow in my uh, walk with God and my faith and my family. Once again, Bo. Many, many challenges. And you lived up here with your family in Massachusetts for a while, so you know about the challenges and when, when we submit to the call, that's how God grows us. It's through the hard times, the challenges. So I, I just, I just want to throw that out to somebody that's listening, man. If you're going through challenges, that's God's building block. It's his way of building you up. So hang in there and, and, and trust in God and learn the lessons that he wants you to learn during these difficult times. And that was my story. Um, in trying to help and coach and mentor other church planters, I was the one growing. I was the one facing the challenges. I was the one being pushed and forced to grow in my faith so that my words won't just talk. If I wasn't walking the walk, if I wasn't living by faith, I can't really tell another person what it's like if I'm not doing it. So that in a nutshell is how I, I got involved in the church planning process. I, you know, and just one final thing that I always, I always share because it's, it's true, you know, and it relates to calling God. God knows us, you know, God, God understands us. God knows our limitations. God, um, you know, he created us. And sometimes we feel, um, that we can't, we're, we're not able to perform that. We're not able to step up to the task. And, and that's probably true. But even so, when, when, when, when God calls us, let's do this. In, in my limited, um, vision, you know, I, I basically when I took on the role, 90% of churches were starting and closing within a two year cycle. And Bo, you know, I'm not making these numbers up. I think you've seen these are the numbers from the, the Greater Boston Baptist Association. These numbers were not fabricated. A church plant was lasting two, two and a half years here in Boston. Nine out of ten churches were closing within two years of opening up. So, you know, I'm, I'm, I, I can show you the numbers. These are the numbers that the, the association had. So when I took this full list, I prayed God, uh, you know, give me five churches. Look, just notice the selfishness of the Father. Give me five churches so that I don't look bad. You know what I mean? Sometimes we try to monopolize, uh, or even manipulate the calling of God to our own limitations, to our own credit, to our own glory. And it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. I just prayed, Father, can you give me five, you know, it's nine out of ten of clothes and give me Five. So on my reports, it looks good. So I can, you know, still receive that financial support. Um, but God sees it in different ways. And after, you know, uh, 14 years as a church planting Thanos, we reported 77 church plants for the glory of Jesus in the Greater Boston area. 77 church plants, plants, uh, most of which are still not only alive and well, but are multiplying and have multiplied and are now, you know, grandmother churches. So when we are called to do what God calls us to do, uh, let's not underestimate the power of God. Let's not underestimate that. You know, let's not filter the call through our limitations, through our capacity to our doubts, because God is able and he does much more. He's, you know, just much greater and enabled to do much more. So maybe this is for somebody that's listening both, that is, you know, thinking that they probably can't do what God is calling them to do. And I'll just tell you, you can't. You can't. But God can. He can through you. And, you know, and even in spite of you, you know, he can do what he calls you to do. So that's what I remember from those, um, those days back when God is God's all is, is. Has much greater impact and results than we could ever imagine. And then, since then, sort of, to answer your question, I've transitioned out of my position as a. As an appointed missionary from the North American Mission Board. I was the. I was the. The Boston, uh, Catalyst, which was the name. And I since then have sat down and have been for, I think it's going on 10 years now here at the Baptist Churches of New England, um, where I've served as an ethnic coordinator, as a pastoral development, uh, coordinator. And I'm. I'm one of the, uh, associate executive directors serving our art convention here. And once again, because God doesn't waste our past. My, uh, you know, my experience here in New England has really helped me merge into this role. And you know, from. From the PK who said he'd never be a pastor who would never work for the domination. Well, I guess God had other plans.

Speaker B: Yeah, really rewind. It was, um, 2010, when you were Nam had. Had come up for. For Better, For Worse. What we had at the time was, uh, Nam had come in with a checkbook to help the bcne kind of restart what was going on up in New England. And here you are, the church planting catalyst, which effectively makes your phone ring first. And you're getting phone calls. Guys from all over the country, um, are calling you, saying, hey, God is like speaking loudly to me about New England, about Boston, you know, what is this? And I remember at the time you said that the key is that folks come and visit. And I like to say they come and smell it, you know, for themselves. And so you became, um, in many ways the tour guide for Boston and helping match up, uh, pastors who sense that call with the right context. And you talk about God doesn't waste anything because you were the perfect leader for that at that time, this wave of young guys mostly, uh, coming to New England. So I remember from 2010 to 2013, there must have been 20, 30 guys come from all over the place, unbeknownst to each other, landing on Boston as, As a. This movement, I guess you could call it a movement of God. And most of those guys are still there with you, which is amazing. So what, what, what were some of the practical, uh, steps that you helped guys take, um, as they were getting from North Carolina up to Boston? How did you walk with those guys through, you know, evaluating that, that, that, yes, that they've got on the table?

Speaker A: Well, one of the, One of the tools that really helped out, and you knew you were very, uh, uh, you led in helping us, you know, put up a website. And, you know, we went to the. We went to the Bunker Hill mining man and thought like, the really impactful big, you know, they, you know, they said, come close and only shoot when you see the white of their eyes. You know, it was a, uh, interesting video. And that ran across the country and the world, by the way, because I was getting notifications not only from, um, church planches around North America, but, but the world, you know, a lot of internationals who would send messages. Hey, I saw the website and, you know, I'm excited about coming. So that was sort of the initial pitch. You know, we were, we were throwing. Casting the Net through. Through a website that you help us put together. And, and it would impact people. And there was also the push from the North American Mission board. And. But I think, you know, God was, Was raising up the right people, the leaders that he wanted to be here. And so I understood that my role was not convincing them of anything, was not pushing them, uh, towards anything. Actually, quite to the contrary. I would bring them here and we had some funding to help, you know, pay for either a plane ticket or, you know, gas or lodging. Uh, we would host some here at the Rice Lodge, and I would spend, you know, three, four days with them. And in the process of showing the city. I was also assessing them, and I would tell them to bring, you know, the wife, the whole family, if they could. And in the process, I was trying to matchmake, you know, and just asking God to give me the. The discernment of where he wanted these people to be. And so I always, um. One of the examples that I use the most is, you know, Tanner Turley. He came from, um, Wake Forest, uh, Southeastern Seminary. And, you know, they were based on, uh, planting in Jamaica Plain. And with five minutes, within five minutes of talking to them, I just knew, you know, just. I just knew from my experience here, the contextualization piece, that I said, learn the ropes and learn the community of Pastor N. I just knew in five minutes they were not fit for Jamaica Plain. And so they came up with a team, uh, and their pastor, Pastor Dwayne Miloni. Um, and, uh, we were driving around. I said, guys, I can take her to Jamaica Plain, but I have two or three questions for you, because Jamaica Plain is this. You fit into this paradigm. And by the way, because I think God doesn't waste past experiences. I think that, uh, one of the ways to connect the guys here on the ground is based on their. Their passions, their giftings, but also their past experiences, you know, so here's Tanner. He's in love with basketball. He said, no, our family wants, um, you know, a house with a little bit of a backyard. And, you know, we're not too urban. We're more in a suburban feel. So I said, jamaica Plain is not. This is not what you guys are looking for. And then Pastor Dwayne said, well, what is one area that you would suggest? And I said, well, let me tell you this. I've been praying for five or six areas, regions here. One of them is Medford. And I think you guys can be God's answer to Medford. And so he said, well, let's go take a look. And so we went to Medford. We took a look. They saw the size, they. They smelled the smells. You know, they. They. They. They felt what they needed to feel. They looked around. And then, um, we stopped for a meal or coffee or something like that. And. And, you know, Tanner and his wife Marsha said, hey, you know what? I. I can see that. I can see ourselves thriving here as a family. I can see ourselves doing a basketball program at the high school. I can see myself interacting with the other moms here and the families and strolling around the park with our babies, whatever. And lo and behold, they're one of our most successful church plants until this day. And where do they meet? At the high school in medford. What does Tanner do? He's the basketball coach. What does marsh to do? He interacts with the women. So, um, you know, that's what I try to do. Would matchmake the people to the ears that have been prayer walked here or prayer drive? You know, I would prayer drive because, man, it's. It's cold here, and fat people drive better than we walk. So anyway, it's prayer walking, prayer driving. But God would show. God would show where he wanted to start something here. So we prepared the ground before God sent the people here. And as God sent the people, it was easy to understand, hey, this is the person that God has for this area. So in a nutshell, that's what I was doing and also assessing the guys, you know, I become sort of famous or infamous, I don't know, for my little tests, um, that I would do. Um, we would, you know, the most famous one. I just. I want to know. These people are. Are really, um, evangelism focused. I want to know if they're connectors. I want to know if they're going to feel good in this context. So I would go to the region that they wanted or they thought that they wanted to go to, and we would stop at a coffee shop, and then I would think a phone call. Like, oh, hey, I got this phone call. I need to be. I just need to stop, step out for, you know, 20, a few minutes or whatever. Uh, and then I'd step out for, you know, 15, 20, maximum 30 minutes, and then come back in and, you know, assess what they did during those 20, 30 minutes. You know, are they just stuck to their iPhone? Are they just checking messages? Are they interacting with the surroundings? And I'll tell you, nine out of ten times that worked. When I would come back and the people, you know, who were being assessed without knowing that they were being assessed, um, when they had conversations with people, when they walked around where, you know, there was one, one church planter who's still around, I left him there for 15, 20 minutes. When I came back, he had already arranged a meeting, uh, with the barista and said he wanted to come back. The barista had offered his. His parents house or some place for the guy to stay. The guy was like, interacting with everybody. So I'm saying, this is the guy, this is the person. And then others would just sit around and no, I just wanted to have time for myself. So, or. Or just wanted to check emails. Or whatever. And if they're not, you know, that was my way of understanding if they had a. An awareness of the opportunity that they were having to interact with their surroundings versus, you know, quote unquote, setting down.

Speaker B: Right. So that was.

Speaker A: And that's that, you know, when we took them to assessment. You know, I don't. This is not something I brag about because it's not mine to brag about, but 100% of the candidates that were taken to assessment that I referred or endorsed have passed with flying colors because they were, you know, they were assessed and trained beforehand. So anyway, for whatever that's worth.

Speaker B: Well, you're. That famous line from Pastor Joe Souza for me is it's the calling that sustains you. And that is so true of New England. I, uh, remember, uh, Jimmy Steele and I were in Toronto, and Andrew Lammy was the. The Nam guy up there at the time. And he said, yeah, most of these guys from the U.S. they come up here, they plant, they stay a while, and then they end up going back home. And I remember that word home kind of rang for me, because what happens with the guys that are called to New England is home becomes New England. And you had a kind of a sixth sense for understanding which guys really got that. And you did it, uh, uh, with wisdom, mainly through asking questions. And I remember one great question you had for me when I was up there was. Was. It was really not a question. It was a statement. He said, bo, you just have never really told me what you want. And I thought that was an interesting question at the time. Um, it reminds me a lot of Brandon and Miriam Allison, who. They moved from Texas, West Texas, to plant in Boston with a team. They had a single, and they had a couple, and Brandon and Miriam. And no sooner than they got to Boston, that their whole core team just moved back to Texas. And it was just. Just Brandon and Miriam, the two of them. And nobody would have, um. Nobody would have blamed him, you know, if they just packed up and moved on home. But I remember Brandon saying, bo, we were called here, and I mean, that was 15 years ago. And it's amazing that it's the calling that sustains us. So, Joe, we've got so many stories like that that we could share on this channel, um, about calling that it's a shame to even cut this episode short, but if you could, how would you land on that story with Brandon and Miriam and maybe set up how you could come on again for another episode?

Speaker A: Yeah, their story is very interesting because, um, it came To a point which is where God, where God leads us. You know, if you look back to the Bible, God's calling come with. It comes with the challenges. And every challenge has the impossible, you know, the impossibility until it's possible through God. So Brandon and Miriam's impossibility was they, they, they landed on. Nobody else is left. We don't have a place to meet, so what do we do? And so they called. I met up with them at a coffee shop. And I remember until this day, I looked them in the eye and I told them, well, you guys have reached a point where now you have to go home. There's no other way. And that was a very provocative, um, affirmation sentence to them. It wasn't even a question. It was, I was provoking them. You have to go home. And I remember until this day when Miriam, in tears, she said, joe, what do you mean home? Go back home. This is our home. And so that's when I stepped back and said, okay, Holy Spirit, your work is working. They get it. And then they toughed out that situation. They revamped. They never one for one moment, but negotiated that this is where God had brought them. And if you visit their church now, Truevine Church, a thriving church in Saugus, Massachusetts, they're two blocks away from where I live. They found their way into the community. They found their way into the hearts of the people there because they didn't negotiate the calling. Um, it's the calling that sustains you. And I always say we have to grasp onto that. Just like Abraham, just like Moses, you know, just like David. Everybody who had a calling to let go of what they had, what they were and where they lived, to go, you know, somewhere else, fulfill God's, uh, plan. You know, I, I, I always used to use the, the imagery of stones of remembrance. You know, what sustaining, sustained you is the calling. So pick up the stones of remembrance as you fulfill your calling. Because when you doubt your calling, go back and look to that stone. Um, until not too long ago, I had a rock, you know, like a stone in m. The entrance of my house to remember, remind me that that was the stone of remembrance. And now, recently, in studying more about Abraham's life, you know, I've switched from the stones of remembrance to, like, count the stars. God brings Abraham out of his comfort zone, his, you know, dwelling, and says, hey, come out to the, to the dark to the night, you know, come out of your comfort zone, look up and count the stars. You know, and here's Abraham Almost a hundred years old, not understanding God's calling and promise. God says, count the stars. It's gonna happen. So that's my word for, you know, this is opposing time. The stones of remembrance and count the stars. Because God's calling for you will be fulfilled if you have faith and if you persevere.

Speaker B: Uh, there's just certain things that we can't not do, and that's that passion, that vision that God puts in front of you. And for me, it's just, it comes down to, uh, are you willing to take big risks for God? Are you willing to really step out in faith? That's why they call it faith and church planting. And you know, better than most, church planting is, um, it's signing up for something that's really hard. So it's obviously something that churches would endeavor to do together. That's why Southern Baptists, we're so set on partnerships and partnering together across regions. Churches to churches, associations to associations. And in your case, the BCNE is doing an amazing job, uh, to be an Equipper connector, uh, supporter. Um, it's just cool. So when you come back on for another episode, we didn't even unlock the. The work that you're doing in Brazil and other places around the world. So I look forward to having folks get to know a little more about you. And I want to thank you for coming on. If you don't mind, just close us in prayer for those folks who are wrangling and wrestling with that call, and we'll be done for now.

Speaker A: Okay. And, um, as we do close in prayer, I just. Just want to sort of piggyback on what you just said. Um, partnership. Hey, God's calling means you can't do it alone. You can't do it alone. That's the biggest mistake I've seen in m. These leaders. People wanting to do it alone. First of all, you need human partners. But above all, you need God. If you're thinking of doing on your own, you've already failed. Let's pray. Father, we come to you and just with gratitude, thanking you for all of the people that are called to do what you call us to do. All of the people who have let go of passions, have let go of comfort zones, have let go of, um, comfortable financial salaries, have let go to say yes to your calling, to your vision, to the future that you have for them. Father, I ask that you encourage each and every one of them, or us, each and everyone who. Who is. Is in the process of fulfilling the calling that you have for our lives. There are times when we doubt. There are times that we want to give up. There are times that we don't understand. But I do ask for a, a portion of, of, of your anointing of your presence, Father, that we may um, just carry on and in moving ahead, may we just like Paul says, you know, not that I have embraced that yet, but I, I just, I, I move on towards the, the goal that is Jesus Christ. So as we, we strive towards that goal, may you give us the strength, the anointing, follow the vision, the provision, the partners and uh, and all this. May your name be Lord. And I do pray for encouragement for those that are struggling with the call. May they hear your voice and experience the move of your spirit in their lives in such a way that they have no other option than to say yes to you. I do pray in Jesus name. Amen.

Speaker B: Amen, brother. Thanks for coming on. Look forward to next time. God bless. Ciao.

Speaker A: Thank you for listening to this episode of Great Commission Partnerships. GC Talk with Bo Ellis. Find us wherever you get your podcasts and on the web@gcpartnerships.org where our mission is connecting Christians to missions and supporting church planters and missionaries locally, nationally and around the world.