Jessica Knapp: Where Is the Flexible Workspace Industry Headed Next?

Speaker A: What I think the missed opportunity is, and I talk about this all the time, is the network effect of co working. So you think about a GWA or a juicy conference, people in the room, owners and operators, that is an enormous amount of buying power and there's an enormous amount of shared buying power there as well. That's why I always talk about, you know, if people aren't looking at the coworking or flex based vertical as part of their strategy for sales, they probably need to reevaluate that because it's incredibly productive. There are so many human beings who work within the spaces in this industry.

Speaker B: Jessica, welcome to the Future of Work podcast. I'm really excited to have you here today. It's, uh, not often we get to focus just on the flexible workspace and I know your expertise is perfect for this conversation. Today as we talk about the future of work, I really want us to focus on the topic of agility, how important agility is. And the foundation of agility really is in the flexible workspace and the coworking industry as it relates to officing. You see a lot of data, a lot of data because of your company's work across the entire spectrum of the industry. What trends are you seeing that, uh, driving the agility issue or that's driving the industry or driving people to consider flexible workspace as a solution as opposed to conventional workspace?

Speaker A: Oh, that's such a fun question.

Speaker B: Three questions.

Speaker A: No, it's great. It's great. So, um, I think that there are two interesting contributing factors. I think there is one that's coming internally from inside the industry and something that is coming from outside the industry where the market is driving that demand.

Speaker B: So for example, let's focus on what's coming from outside because that's what expands the industry.

Speaker A: That's. That's exactly right. Um, so we're seeing, you know, obviously there has been return to work and return to office and things like that. We, you know, I think what's really interesting and exciting for the flexible workspace industry is that we're seeing a lot of people picking up, you know, co working memberships for their staff and things like that. We're seeing large corporates, um, implement co working spaces for their teams as well. Um, you know, I think Hewlett Packard just, um, you know, made a big statement where they're going to be, um, you know, moving people remote or into co working as well. So it's interesting to see some of these macro factors, um, that drive, you know, growth inside of the industry. I Think that that behavior has been really interesting to observe.

Speaker B: Well, you know it, it's interesting that you say that. Um, you know we, we have alliance virtual offices too. Not uh, with all work and um, 70 also just say 75%. 75%. We're servicing over 315,000 accounts. So we're the largest virtual office provider globally. And 70% of our customers or 75% of our customers are institutional grade customers. They're not onesie twosie, they're large uh, institutional grade customers. So that really supports if you look at it, If I'm a 75% structure there across the whole industry. That has to be a major trend that is starting to raise itself um, overall at the industry level. Why do companies like Alliance Virtual or IWG or DWE work? Why are we seeing that trend of major institutional structures where a lot of the smaller operators, even though they have great locations and honestly from time to time much better services um, than some of the largest operators. Why are they not seeing that institutional trend the same way that we are?

Speaker A: I think obviously one contributing factor is mass and scale and availability. Uh, so you know, an institutional large corporate customer might be looking for something in major metropolitan areas, typically the weworks and um, industrious and you know, alliance things like that will see, you know, you're in major cities where they can put their people. So that's one thing. Um, I think that's definitely a pretty major contributing factor. Um, I, I also think that, and this remains to be seen but I think that we are seeing a ah, maturity in the industry as well. I think co working is no longer just that fun neighborhood place where you can go get a coffee and um, you know, meet some people. And yes, it is very much still that it's just the public maybe has taken a little bit longer to catch up to that. We've known this all along, right. And I, I think now that um, there is a lot more optionality available. So you know I run a company, I've got 100 employees. They're all remote across America. I have options where I can choose to put five of my employees who are in St. Louis into a really great local co working space and they're really happy there. But I also have 50% of my team who in New York I can put them into a wework and then they've got locations all over the world. So I think, I think that sort of high, low optionality is really great for the end user and for the customer and people who are looking to really look after Their teams find them a good, find them a good work home.

Speaker B: You know, I, I, I, I, I agree with you. We sort of have a 10, um, offices in 10 countries and 10 cities in 10 minutes concept, you know, that you should, our industry should be able to serve that way, uh, over, over overall.

Speaker A: But that's what I like about flex though is we can do both. There is something for everybody, you know, and we're seeing this emergence with wellness focused spaces. You know, you can go and get red light therapy or a therapy session or go see a doctor and also get work done and have a meeting with a client, um, and stand at a standing desk or a walking desk or get a, you know, a ketogenic lunch delivered to your desk. You know, we're seeing all of these options available and I love that our industry has driven that behavior for the end user, uh, for our community.

Speaker B: Well, you know, I think when we talk about agility, uh, we're usually referencing short term leases, things of that nature that large companies or all companies need. We all need to be agile today. Uh, flexibility and agility. No company, large or small can do well without it. But when you think about agility, really from what you just said, delivered keto lunches, that's a form of agility. Stand up desks, that's a form of agility. All the things you want tailored to your particular need rather than just being in a cube farm somewhere, um, all of those things are forms of agility that uh, are critical to the way a five generation company, uh, with five generations of team members needs to be thinking. Because we don't just need agility for economics or for liabilities or for balance sheet. We need it because we have five different generations of people in the office today all working together and they have different, totally different requirements.

Speaker A: And the beautiful thing about that agility is that there's, there's a home for everybody. So there's the agility but then there's also the hospitality components that come along with it as well. And I think marrying those two things together, um, is where we really see the growth. And as you know, uh, you know, millennials, Gen X, uh, Gen Z start to grow up and take you know, higher positions and companies that becoming the decision makers. These, um, having the freedom of choice and to choose what space is going to work best for you and for their team, they sort of get to do it in a different way. And again that choice in flexible workspaces, being agile and being able to pivot and offer these things to best service Their customer. Like that's a really interesting moment in time for our industry.

Speaker B: Well, you know we've been trying to win all commercial office in one way or another, which flexible workspace is part of really. Um, has been trying to wed concepts of hospitality and services decades and decades now. Um, and I see as I look out across the flexible workspace industry, different uh, brands doing different things. But I don't yet see the return to the old service models that used to be around before, I'll say before even the mid-90s was when the highlight of services were around. And again that's a five generation thing. I've seen that. A lot of people haven't even seen that um, uh, where it was really a service based industry that maybe was real estate dependent. And now I think we're part of a real estate industry that's trying to get back to services. What's your view on that and how do you see the, you see the revenue that's generated by centers? How do you see the ratios in revenues between workspace in all categories versus service provision in all categories as a ratio? Because that's really the telling number.

Speaker A: Uh, yes. So it's been interesting with Workspace Geek because a lot of our uh, clients uh, are mostly serviced offices. And um, they sort of operate um, in a way where it's very much you have an office and that's sort of the way it works. And um, they are full and busy and productive and they've really honed in on their cost of goods. Uh, they know what their margins are, they are agile and that they pivot and change spaces based on what the market is demanding. Um, the uh, the ratio is interesting. I sort of, I sort of categorize this industry in sort of two, two ways. You sort of, we do this one thing, you come in here, it's a little bit old school maybe and then we have more co working where it's you have yoga, you have coffee, you know, you have whatever. Neither is better than the other. Both there is clearly market um, and demand for both of those, both of those pathways if you will. Um, the ratio is interesting for me when you are a more sort of hospitality, um, very service driven if you want to call it flexible, flexible workspace. And I have found it really interesting a lot of places they want to add all of these amenities, um, and I sort of call it amenities gone wild if you will. They don't, um, you think, oh I'll do this and I'll do this and I'll do this and Sometimes there is an uptake, you know, whatever. I find the places that do it the best is they listen a lot to their client base or their community. They hear a lot about what they want, what people are asking for. They let it, they let this sort of be a repetition of these sorts of requests before they really do implement something. Because you still have to run a business and you still have to pay the bills. Right. Um, so I think marrying together the hospitality and the um, you know, being really business savvy is where I see people doing it the best way. That sort of inflection point is um, and I think also, you know, you can bleed a little bit into your margins when you start offering more and more amenities. But there are also like sort of things you can do that are, that have high impact but that don't cost you a lot in terms of the margin either. So I find that tension to be really interesting to observe as well.

Speaker B: Well, you know, as I go back in time, business, um, centers becoming serviced offices, co working, grow out of that, etc.

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker B: Were very heavily, uh, heavily provided clerical, secretarial and administrative services as well as meeting room services, which everybody still does today, etc. Um, it represented 15, 20, 25% of their total revenue that's evaporated within the industry or hugely diminished and been replaced by what you're saying amenities, things that attract people are uh, a variety of what I'll call self serve items that don't really generate revenue. And yet the fastest growing independent um, employment structure in the United States at least and probably globally according to Upwork and a few others, are virtual assistants.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: So why aren't centers with all of their critical mass within the center itself, 100, 200, 300 customers, including virtuals, establishing their own virtual assistant structure effectively and servicing their clients to help their clients grow their businesses more so than just providing entities.

Speaker A: I mean, did you just invent a new business, Frank? Is that going to be the next thing that you do?

Speaker B: No, it's the own business. It's the old.

Speaker A: Well, I mean this is, this is what's fascinating. There is very much a return if you will. So um, I, I think that, I think it's happening in really hyperlocal ways and I, and in terms of, in terms of supporting businesses that um, you know, help help in terms of flex offices that help grow their businesses or provide business services in that, in that way we, there are a few examples of it, but it's not necess necessarily baked into some of the larger um, the larger organizations either. What I think the missed opportunity is, and I talk about this all the time, is the network effect of co working. So you think about a GWA or a juicy conference, you have 3, 400 people in the room, owners and operators. They probably represent somewhere between half a million to 800,000 human beings depending on who's in the room. That is an enormous amount of buying power and there's an enormous amount of shared buying power there as well. So um, that's why I always talk about, you know, if people aren't looking at the co working or flex space vertical as part of their strategy for sales, they probably need to reevaluate that because it's incredibly productive. There are so many human beings who work within these spaces in this industry.

Speaker B: I agree with you. It's also hugely fragmented though.

Speaker A: It is hugely fragmented.

Speaker B: Yes, we all talk about the big guys, IWG and WeWork, uh, industrious, a few others. Um, they have maybe 15, maximum 20% of the industry. They're big, they're noisy, they're powerful because everybody else is a, ah, two center operator. Uh, 2.6 centers is the average across the industry. And so uh, the uh, difference between 10,000, 20,000, 30,000 of those 2.6 center operators versus 1,5000 center operator in terms of voice is massive. Um, uh, so I think somehow as an industry we need to reverse who is heard and how it's done. And consider that when we talked about how big the industry is and how much it really, when we talk about community, you hit on community and the co working centers and an emphasis there and the different types of centers. I would say that um, we're in the flexible workspace industry. It's built up of different brand structures. Uh, serviced offices are one and their brand promise is professional image and services. Co, uh, working would be, um, business growth through a collaborative community, uh, incubators, accelerators, et cetera. There are a whole variety of different structures and co working and serviced offices are the two largest by far. Coworking is I think becoming the most recognized, um, uh, in terms of uh, the industry itself. Um, and therein lies some confusion because everybody says they're coworking when actually they're really not.

Speaker A: And, and that's, and that's okay by the way.

Speaker B: I, I agree, I agree there is

Speaker A: a lid for every pot as my grandmother would say. And I think it, I sort of the analogy that I use is a little bit like ice cream flavors. Uh, you might love mint chocolate chip in this particular location, you're looking at is not mint chocolate chip or you might love Rocky Road, you know. Well, there you go.

Speaker B: That used to be my favorite. No, I think you're really right. And that's why I say uh, going to one or the other, uh, doesn't matter. Uh, uh, overall what matters is the individual brand promise of the individual company and their fulfillment of that brand promise. So services versus community, uh, you can combine the two or you could be focused on one or the other. Um, location. You uh, mentioned central Business District, some of the larger operators. Actually we see the biggest growth in the uh, within the industry and within the customer demand in the secondary markets right now.

Speaker A: Oh, this, the secondary market is. I. Someone needs to write something. I mean there probably has been, but I think the data around that is so fascinating. Um, but, but it does make sense because if we look at, you know, some of these larger organizations who are providing uh, you know, workspaces for their teams who are remote, maybe, I mean what's the point in me? I live, you know, if I have to commute for two hours to get to my co working space, I may as well just work from home. But if there's something that's a mile from my house, that makes far more sense and it's far more lifestyle driven.

Speaker B: It's funny, you know, we've been in this industry a long time and in 1979 I commissioned, we were starting to build buildings and uh, I commissioned a marketing study. I had no budget by the way. It was biggest expense I'd had so far.

Speaker A: I love it.

Speaker B: Big marketing study. Uh, and so we had this, this firm do uh, a, uh, an interesting review and it was a major firm, so it was a major expansion. They put out a book. Um, there was only two things, three things actually, uh, that um, were important in that study. One was people prefer, this is so obvious. People prefer to work 5 minutes from their residence and 30 minutes from their customers as opposed to 30 minutes from their residence and 5 minutes from their customers. Captain Obvious, right? Uh, that's so, so, so, so obvious for most people. The other thing uh, was uh, that everybody hates commuting.

Speaker A: No one, it's a waste of time.

Speaker B: No one likes to commute. So we go, okay, that's obvious too. No one likes to commute. I uh, was living in LA at the time and LA traffic, no one likes that, uh, overall. And then the other thing that was interesting when it came to location because we're doing a lot of traffic studies and such because we were building buildings, they said made this comment. I've always thought about it. When we look at a location, decision makers live on curvy streets, non decision makers live on straight streets.

Speaker A: Right?

Speaker B: They could have said wealthy people live on curvy streets, non wealthy people live on streets, but they said decision makers. And that really influenced a lot of our development of centers and location choice throughout the years and even today in our aggregation side of our business, uh, when we look at centers that we want to, uh, work with, we pay attention to those three things from 1979 and don't think a lot of people do.

Speaker A: I don't think. I don't think a lot of people do either. It's interesting. I mean, obviously I'm from New Zealand, I'm not from America. Um, and I moved to pop quiz. Everyone at the end of this podcast has to mimic my accent and then submit it to me. Everyone gets a sheep, um, if they win. So I was, I moved to Los Angeles when I was 24 and I used to commute from the east side Pasadena over to Santa Monica for my job. And I was about two hours in traffic each way every day. And you know, New Zealand is a hyper regional place. We have a couple of larger cities which are, which generally are the size of a suburb and most major cities in America. And um, you know, my office was a 10 minute walk from my house always, or a 5 minute drive, or you can pop home and do some laundry on your lunch break or you can, you know, everything is very close by. So the socialization that comes with that is so much healthier and everything is very neighborhood and very community and very hyperlocal. And I think that, um, people, and especially people of my, you know, I'm an older millennial, um, they want more of that, you know, um, and I find it so interesting that we're seeing that also as a trend in the flex and co working industry as well. Um, I think commuting is such a horrific waste of time in, in every, in every avenue. It's bad for your mental health, it's bad for the environment. I mean, there are so many things about it. Um, walking is good for you. Bumping into people on the street and colliding with other human beings is very good to you. Good for you. I think that's why co working is so good for you as well. I mean, I, I work from co working spaces. I work remote in the work that I do. And sometimes I'll have a conversation with someone who's starting a CPG sock company and they figured out this really cool outreach marketing nugget of information I get from them and I can go and put that into action in my own work. And I think it's endlessly fascinating the people that you get to bump into.

Speaker B: No, I agree. You make the point about commuting and the environment. Um, uh, in the United States, uh, we had what's uh, called the Clean Air act, uh, that was very popular in the 90s, early through the mid-90s. Um, overall factor. We actually wrote the definition of what a telecommuting center was for the Clean Air act. And we built a variety of telecommuting centers for the state of California's Air Quality Management District and ran them for the state. And it was a very. No one really knew what they were doing. Um, the government didn't know what they were doing, uh, overall, uh, and they uh, forced people into these telecommuting centers. All companies that had more than 50 employees at a single location actually had to file a Clean Air act document that said how they were complying with certain things. X amount of, X amount of van pooling, Y amount of uh, people in telecommuting centers, blah blah blah, all this sort of thing. And after about two years people started liking it. And then after about four years the government administration changed in Washington. They no longer had the will to enforce it. The new administration changed and so it all just went. But there was a perfect example of um, benefit from reduction in commute, uh, and the way, the way we do things that was measurable economically, um, environmentally, et cetera. And uh, the U.S. government lost the will to manage that effectively.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: And what employers found back at that time was their own employees liked it and their own employees were voluntarily doing a whole variety of things that contributed to the process. And it all went away. It all went away.

Speaker A: I mean who would have thought that happy human beings make happy employees, which then has so many trickle down effects. I mean it's very simple.

Speaker B: But what was strange was the government stopped enforcing the program and the companies themselves let it all die away. They didn't continue to participate or on their own where they could have. That was an opportunity lost, uh, definitely, uh, overall and hopefully we won't do that again in the future. When we talk about this and commuting and uh, services and community, uh, application of technology. What is AI doing inside of the services industry, inside a flexible workspace today to improve it? Uh, rather than isolate individuals that are using AI within centers or on their own where they don't think they need to participate because they've got a, I don't need to bump into somebody on the street because I've got my AI friend. Uh, there's a whole transition going on in the psyche of work. Uh, what do you think? The flexible workspace sectors, opportunity, responsibility, reaction. See all that playing out.

Speaker A: I mean the very notion of someone saying they don't need to go out into the world because they have their AI friend is bone chilling to me.

Speaker B: It's there though. It's there.

Speaker A: I, I know, I know it is, I know it is.

Speaker B: And it's growing, especially in Gen Z and, and, and, and Gen Alpha.

Speaker A: Certainly, certainly. Um, I, I will say it's been interesting to observe this trend and change happening. And so I'm 41 and so I remember talking to my dad, uh, about you know, he was an orchardist and we had an orchard in New Zealand and he would talk and I would talk to him about the way that I was working and he thought it was so cool and modern but it wasn't something that he was able to necessarily identify with. And now I find myself having these conversations with Gen Z and Gen Alpha, who I employ and work with in hire and um, I find myself learning so much from the way that they think, the way that they talk about being in the world, the way that they think about working because their baseline is so inherently different to what my baseline was when I graduated from university. Um, so there is an expectation around flexibility, being able to work from home. I want to catch a yoga class and sometimes it's at 10 o' clock in the morning. I can work around that and design my own schedule and, and I actually think that's really, really fantastic. Um, however, so, so I, and I also, there are some trends that show us that, you know, Gen Z and Gene Alpha actually socialize in a way that's a little more offline and agnostic. You know we're seeing um, I don't know if you've seen some of those YouTube clips and viral clips of um, university, uh, addresses where they're talking about AI and they're getting booed off stage and that kind of thing. I think there is also a lot of fear and concern, concern from that generation because they've all grown up to a certain point, they're all working within the world and then this new technologies come along there's going to wipe out a lot of opportunity. I'd be pretty, pretty annoyed to put it lightly as well. Um, so I think that there, I,

Speaker B: I have to interrupt you for a second. The question do you really think that AI, uh, is going to wipe out all the opportunity for Gen Z? Or do you think Gen Z not mature enough yet to recognize the opportunities that it will create instead?

Speaker A: I can, I can understand why there would be concern and fear and it's sort of like a structure that you're sort of growing up and working towards a certain structure and a way of doing life and working. And that structure seems to be unstable at the moment and there is a reforming happening. I can imagine it would be a rather tenuous place to be where there's an unstable structure that you're sort of used to. I think that there is probably also some overcorrection and some fear because they're young and they don't necessarily know. Um, and I think that things will even themselves out. Um, but I think a lot of it remains to be seen. I think there's a lot of responsibility on these companies as well. But the one thing I will say is I think that there are sort of two patterns emerging for me. I think that there are ah, people who are ah, they have the AI friends. Their life is very much inside. I also think that there is a growing trend of a more offline way of living and socializing in younger generations as well.

Speaker B: Yeah, I hope, I hope so. One thing, when you say that um, these students are in an unstable environment, I would agree. Because the world is unstable, correct? Uh, the world has always been unstable.

Speaker A: I mean I graduated right when they.

Speaker B: Yeah, the world will always be unstable. That is correct. If reaction is a first world, us pampered reaction versus a second or third world. Uh, I'm going to use this to get a head reaction.

Speaker A: I mean, listen, I'm the daughter of a farmer. Nothing has ever been stable for me my entire life. I know nothing of stability and I work in the startup space. Again, I don't know much about stability. So I live in that place. But the world is also not designed for my comfort, you know. So, um, but yes, I think, I think that things will settle down eventually. But it's also very new as well.

Speaker B: Well, you know, it's funny about farming. Uh, my dad always used to say, well, better to be lucky than smart, because smart don't make it rain.

Speaker A: 100%. 100%.

Speaker B: You get into that kind of environment sometimes. Well, let's uh, kind of uh, move back over to flexible work. We're going all over the place here. But I think it's good because it talks to that main subject of agility, uh, and the need for more agility in the world because it is unstable. Uh, and speed, uh, they say uh, it's not the large that eats the small, it's the fast that eats the slow. So speed and agility become two components together. Uh, your reaction time is as important as your reaction itself. Uh, uh, overall, uh, I think that one of the benefits of flexible work in our industry overall is that it does allow speed in reaction time to new environments and new, new new uh business models, et cetera. Much more so than uh, historically uh traditional real estate and office has done. So so I think we've got an advantage uh there that's, that's pretty strong. How do you see um, over the next three to five years, where do you see the flexible workspace industry going? Based on all the data that you see, based on the commercial real estate uh, data that you all see, where do you think the industry's headed?

Speaker A: Um, I, I think it will continue to grow. I mean we know it will continue to grow and I think that there will be more, I think we'll see more and more niche spaces as well. I think that trend will continue to emerge. I was talking about sort of this wellness workspace trend. I think that will continue to emerge which is really interesting to observe. Um, I think multi, multi use buildings, uh, where there's co working and maybe corporate offices and these gyms and you know that kind of thing as well. I think a more holistic integration into the way that we live. Um, I think you know co working really set the trend for that and I think you know co working inflex. I think we'll continue to see that happen as well. I think the localization second tier market will continue to grow. Um, I think the demand will drive that as well. I think from a technological perspective, you know we're seeing more and more space. We're seeing spaces where they're sort ah, of unstaffed or very lightly staffed maybe with AI and the emergence of technology we may begin to see more and more of that as we know flexible offices and co working and serviced um offices all operate on relatively narrow margins. Um people cost is often the thing that drives the growth but is the most expensive thing.

Speaker B: So maybe that without people you can't provide service.

Speaker A: So that is absolutely correct.

Speaker B: And service key to a serviced office and hospitality, Hospitality.

Speaker A: Um and I, I think um, what I, I, so I, I think that there probably will be some people who give it a go and you know really go for the unstaffed model and do that kind of thing. I also think Again there is, there is a rising trend in the analog of life like the events industry is exploding in person. Tactile experiences are really what people want. And I think that hiring for people who can create those experiences, run communities, build communities, design great programming or experiential marketing, whatever it might be, I think that those spaces will do really, really well. And we look at the growth of places like Kiln or the Melon maybe. You know they're absolutely beautiful environments to sit in every single day and they have excellent um, you know, excellent services as well. And you know they're growing and I think we'll see more and more of that as well. So I again like, I think, I think we'll sort of see those two things emerge in tandem.

Speaker B: Well, I would agree. I think services will uh, come back in one way or another. There are two ways to provide them. First, you can hire the people and figure it out, do it yourself to your own community. Secondly, you can do what uh, you were suggesting we do or someone else do and that you can outsource an awful lot of the requirements through partnerships um, that are created either with technology structures today. Um, and uh, when you comes to experience a business or a co working center is excellent organizational platform for experiences that you don't have to do yourself but you can organize to be done for others. And I think there's, there's not enough of that in the industry. Uh, I think people like do more but they just don't quite get it done or know how to do it. And maybe there is opportunity for um, a company to emerge within the industry to focus on providing that kind of service to the operators so in turn it can be passed along to their customers.

Speaker A: M. Well I think what we see as well, and you probably see in your line of work Frank, I think that as the technology systems that support these flexible coworking executive offices um, becomes more mature and integration systems are obviously a very key part of this. I think as they become more sophisticated, AI gets implemented even more. It allows a little more breathing room for people to actually curate and have, have a bit of, have more fun actually um, building these communities and really focusing on the in person stuff. Because if your billing is automated and taken care of, or your tour booking from your website is automated and taken care of, or your follow up cadence for a new lead is automated and taken care of, you know, that frees up a lot of time. And I remember my, you know, at next space, you know, back in God, was it 2009? Uh, oh no, 2012, I started there and we built our own proprietary system. It took us an hour and 15 minutes to onboard a new person. And there was one day where I, you know, we were so busy, we were onboarding new people every day. Um, if I could have taken that load away from me and focused on my community a little bit more, like obviously you do the best you can at the time with what's available to you and that was considered efficient. We just had so many, um, truncated systems. Um, I think it would be a wonderful thing to be able to run a space now with really great automation, um, that runs seamlessly in the background and then you can really focus on the actual in person stuff.

Speaker B: I agree. That would be, would allow for higher quality services which would allow for longer customer life cycle and customer value models, would allow for m, uh higher, um, staff, larger uh, staff structures, uh, better training, all of those sorts of things together. What's the one thing that you think people can do that would be a change across the industry or across the world for that matter, that would impact the industry? Um, what's the one thing that everybody should say, well, wait a second, it's Friday, I gotta go do this Monday morning early. What's the one thing?

Speaker A: Um, at the risk of sounding like a huge nerd, um, look at your data and your analytics. I think if you can wrap a narrative around your numbers and understand the behavior based on the data and the metrics in your space, you'll be far, far better off. And the world, the world needs more co working, it needs more community. We need these spaces to be thriving and to be operationally efficient and agile. Turn a meeting room into an office, vice versa. Flip it around, Paint the war Navy. I don't know. Um, I think all of these things help co working spaces thrive and be better and then there's more community for people.

Speaker B: I couldn't agree more. We have a mantra in our own company that says get the data. Data becomes information which turns into knowledge and knowledge allows action. So get the data. Uh, and we practice that every, every single day. And we started doing that uh, in the 80s when marketing material, we were looking at our marketing and we recognized that. We looked at our finances at the end of the month and we looked at our marketing at the beginning of the month for what we were going to do next month. Then the Internet came along in the 90s and we reversed everything we said. If we don't look at our marketing first as a forecasting structure for what we expect, next month's finances to be like, then we're making a big mistake. So we started looking at all that data together. Uh, you really have to overall. And the sources of data we have today are so much better than we had. 80s, 90s, even early mid 2000s. Uh, companies like yours are huge contributors to that. And it's uh, very, very important.

Speaker A: There is one other thing I was going to say. Um, the one thing. Um, you know, I'm a sales girl. That's my background. Um, I didn't know I was a salesperson when I got my first co working job. I thought I was just helping people. It um, took me two years to realize I was a salesperson.

Speaker B: Sales through service.

Speaker A: Correct, correct. Um, and uh, the thing that I find interesting, and I've worked across many startups in many industries now, people tend to try and they spend a lot of time trying to fix what's broken and what's not working. I think people don't, they, they don't look at what is working and what they can turn up or pour gasoline on and you know, really, really amplify because I think it's our human nature, especially those who are entrepreneurial or they run their own, you, uh, know, offices and co working spaces and things like that. We tend to want to try and do it the hard way. But I think that, you know, it's, it's far easier to see what's working and amplify that rather than fix something that's really broken. You can put that aside for a while, maybe come back to it later on if you really want to, but it goes back to that agility.

Speaker B: Yep, that's probably a good place for us to start and stop today. Uh, a little bit long in time, but that, um, accelerate concept, um, by looking at what you're doing right, uh, rather than focusing on correcting small things that are wrong. Probably a little bit of a mind shift that we all should have. Uh, and it also puts us in the positive instead of the negative. That's uh, a strength. Uh, so I thank you for that thought very, very much and uh, look forward to the next time we chat it.

Speaker A: Me too. Thank you, Frank.

Speaker B: All righty, Take care.

Speaker A: You too. Look after yourself.

Speaker B: If it's impacting the future of work, it's in the future of work podcast by Allwork Space.