The Key Word in "Agile Coach" Isn't Agile - It's Coach

Speaker A: This is the future of work. Welcome along to another podcast from Ian and the crew on the future of work. Let's join them now for the new episode.

Speaker B: Well, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, Good grief. It's another podcast on the future of work. Um, great to be with you again today. Today I am joined by uh, one of the uh, guys who sometimes does join me and we've had some great times together. Steve. Steve Forbes. Hello Steve.

Speaker C: Hello Ian. Hello everyone.

Speaker B: Uh, so Steve and I were talking earlier this week just generally chatting, wrap uh, up of something else we'd been working on. And ah, we talked about a problem that really um, came up over the weekend in some other podcast work, which is how come some people who are coaches get renews and others vanish the moment the money gets tight and don't get renews and you know, what are the attributes of the people who survive and thrive in these kind of things. Now we were talking about agile coaches and agile coaches are having quite a hard time at the moment generally. But actually it applies to all consultants and things like that as well. Now Steve, the reason Steve was worth the chat is that Steve, uh, and I know this because I was part of the team, built a hugely successful um, pipeline of people going into various companies to do coaching and therefore I don't have the number. Steve, maybe you would know, I mean how many people did you place in that period of your.

Speaker C: I don't know how many uh, place. But um, uh, at ah, the peak it was 120 consultants who were billing in one place.

Speaker B: So that's more, More multiple places. What I meant is a One moment, one moment. Yeah, yeah. So, um, so we talked and I, as we talked I had my usual sort of light bulb moment above my bald head saying this could do with being a podcast and suggested we record it thus. So here we are. So um, what I want to start by talking about is my view of the kind of almost anti patterns we see in the industry and then we evolve together in the production prep. Three points that we want to talk through with everyone on what makes someone highly valuable and worth renewing and the kind of person who survives the cut when money gets tight, uh, those kind of people. So to start that though, I want to talk about the anti patterns. I, I've seen a lot of coaches who, how can I put it? They, they sort of have the air of someone who is almost like royalty and you know, when they arrive in the work in the morning, their sort of first moment in the day is, you know, let me Start by saying how grateful you are for me to. For me being here. And their view of the world is very much that. They are like the superstar on site. You know, Ronaldo just passed me the ball. I'd score. Um, and, uh, it's almost like we've made it. We know what we're doing. We're at the peak of our career, and you should just be sort of listening to us. That's one kind of thing I've seen. Another one is basically a coach or a consultant that is quite ineffective because basically they just don't work hard. They just sort of. They try. Take an easy path. They try and do the least work possible. Um, I remember talking to someone who said, you know, we set up a whole workshop in a country, flew an agile coach in, and he arrived, and just before he started, he said, well, I haven't thought about this, but I think maybe we should do a future retrospective. And the guy rolled his eyes and sort of let him start it. And after 10 minutes he went, no, this isn't working. So done. No prep at all. Just pulled something out that was there previously. And then the third one, um, is basically, uh, they don't work hard. They sort of don't feel that they're the bee's knees. But what they only can do is what they've been taught to do. And it's from the book. It's just from the book. It's just, you know, this is how you do a retrospective. And this is. And they feel that what the gold is that they're producing or usefulness is this almost like Moses from On High Ten Commandments. As long as I tell you this stuff, you will be amazed and think I'm valuable. And I've seen this so often now in other things. And to do with AI, particularly where there are a lot of people who are on LinkedIn recycling the same points about AI, as though they're just original, you know, like someone saying, you know, I saw one, a grabby headline, you know, three things to do to get your prompts working. Number one, make sure you talk about context as if that's original today. You know, and they're sort of recycling sort of basics now because they don't have the real understanding of why they're doing particular things like retrospectives or boards or, uh, lean portfolios, whatever it is, because they don't have the understanding. They can't adjust it to what it needs to be in that. So they're my three, um, sort of almost anti. Patterns, uh, before I Go into the main points we want to make. Steve, any thoughts on those? Yes, anything on your mind?

Speaker C: So I think what those three have got in common is they're all comfort zones. So whether you are, um, uh, you achieved a position of power in organization and you throttle back, or whether you are not delivering change or not putting the effort in, or whether you are being very, very specific about what you do and only doing that by the book. They're all forms of being in a comfort zone. And I think what we need to look at is being in a discomfort zone. And what we're going to be talking about, um, with the three traits of these successful coaches, is that they are all happy to embrace discomfort. And we'll unpack that later. So, comfort zone. Um, you see people get into them, often they don't last a year, they have an easy year. But when the money gets tight and people are wondering who should go, then often they're the people that go. Not always, but, um, it's sort of, it's uh, um, a distinguishing trait. So we've got basically they're not delivering, um, but they're having an easy life.

Speaker B: Yes, yes. I mean, I think, I imagine there is a set of people that we used to work with whose entire point was, if I can get a 12 month contract, I'll coast the 12 months. If I can do that five times, that's all I'll need to do for my life. I just find different ones every 12 months. When the going is good, when the market was strong, they could do all of that. Really. So, okay, so great, uh, point there, Steve. Comfort zones and being. So the first thing we said was, what makes these people renewable, valuable. And as we were doing through the prep, you had a few people in mind. Thanks for saying I was one of them. That's a nice compliment. Thank you very much for saying, saying that. What is it that they do? Well, so the first one we said was, I'm going to say it and then you're going to tell me some stories and things like that. The most important thing is to deliver value, not insight, not here's a manual, here's something to do. Let me show you how a retrospective works. Let me show you how to create some PowerPoint slides. But proper value. Get stuff done and then shout about it. And the shout about it isn't a needy shout. It isn't, look at me, look at me, look at me. But it's, um, you know, it's sort of just calmly pointing out that things are getting done because you're getting on, doing them and helping others getting done. So, uh, and that value is about what work it is, not the hours logged. Uh, silent competence gets no credit. You have to make the value visible. And don't we all believe that visibility is everything anyway? What do you think of that one, Steve? I know we, we co created that earlier in the prep, or maybe even just you did, I don't know. But what are your thoughts?

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, you need to create value because when the time comes that budgets are reviewed and they're wondering who to let go, um, then people who haven't you may have created value. And I think a lot of coaches have created fantastic value. But if you don't shout about it, no one knows. And it's never a room that the coach is going to be in where this is going to be discussed. So what you need to do is to create a report or a PowerPoint slide that describes the value that's being delivered. So that will advocate for you when you're not in the room. Um, and if you create PowerPoint slides that describe the value that's been delivered every month, um, uh, in the client company's format, then those sites will just end up magically in packs when they are presenting them themselves because it's just easier just to take the slides that you produced and that will advocate for you when you're not there. And people will talk about the value that's been delivered. And value. It could be cost saving, it could be time to market, it could be customer stickiness, it could be the value of learning something that didn't work and that you tried, uh, experiment that you tried, hypothesis that you tested and it didn't work. And that's all valuable. So it's capturing this value. I. The best form of value is financial, but knowledge is also great. Harder to put a financial number on it. But it's knowledge value that the organization is benefiting from is also great. Creating this value is one thing and a lot of coaches do it, but you need to document it and shout about it so that the customers know what they've got rather than your immediate team. It's your stakeholders beyond the team. They understand the value and how things are improving in that particular environment in which you're working.

Speaker B: Yeah, um, you make me think, Steve, one of the problems coaches have is usually the people who have budgets. The people who are really holding the purse strings don't understand what coaches do for a living. They don't understand why they're useful. Now we know that Uh, I think we should be advocating what coaching is useful for as well as the value we're doing this week. You know. So, for example, on a slide pack I put out a few weeks ago for something, I had a quote from one of the people I'm working with in the company who went, every time you and I meet Ian, you double my output. That was on a slide to say, you know, imagine I'm doing 30 people like that and imagine that they're paid 150,000 a year, uh, as a cost, and I'm doubling their outputs, you know. Now the other part of this problem is, like, I've always said this, like, you know, if you project, if you're planning a big project and you're going, this is how much it'll cost. And the people who are plotting it go, it's going to be 10 million. And someone says, and how much do we need to pay for the management and delivery overhead? And they go, oh, well, the books say 10%, so we'll allocate 10% for that. And then someone says, um, how about coaching? And they go, oh, it's a bit tight budgets, this. Do we really need coaches as well as project managers? And before you know where you are, what coaches do is lost. And the people who usually make decisions on budget are project managers. So they do not understand what coaches really do. You know, now there is no point sitting there when you haven't got a renewal and you haven't made the cut and going, they just didn't understand me. Make them understand you. Tell the values that you're getting out, put the reports out every week, um, make it abundantly clear that you're giving value across the company. Uh, that's why I think the first point we made, which is, you know, deliver value and shout about it, is critical. You can't just live on that. Is there anything else to say on this before I move on?

Speaker C: Yeah. It also requires bravery or courage, because if you talk about value, you've delivered retrospectively. The, the organization has slowly been changing and people won't remember how it used to be. There's no description of the situation or numbers attached to it. And it's very difficult for people to see the journey and the changes that have happened over the time that a, uh, coach has been there. And the reason I say courage or bravery is it's getting some form of metrics identifying KPRs, OKRs, whatever the metrics are at the start that are going to change because it needs bravery, because you're kind of you're putting a stake in the sand saying, okay, these are the things we're going to improve. In reality, people will forget probably the metrics that you've, that you, that you've used and maybe you just report on the ones that actually do deliver the value. But three months down the line talk about how numbers have changed, how um, uh, maybe the um, um, the bugs in life, people will forget how many bugs there used to be and be looking at how many bugs there are now and assume it's always been like that or the time from idea, um, um, to production where it's in a customer's hands that whole cycle that meets, maybe people forget about that. But if you can log these things early on as part of the early discovery at the start of the engagement, then these are metrics and that you can use and that you can use to demonstrate value. And then with the client help to assign a financial benefit to those. And looking at the financial side of things will help them to realize the value you're delivering. And if they look at the financial benefit that a coach has delivered and the cost of the coach, they go, well, this is an absolute no brainer that they are delivering so much more benefit to the organization than they're costing and just renewing.

Speaker B: I mean there is a point where you go, is there anyone else on a return on investment ratio producing more than me? Literally, I've said that to a CFO in terms of these are uh, real figures. Is there anyone else doing more of a return on investment? And they go no. So yes, it's a point. And so in a sense you're an advocate for yourself. I still want to say, forget agile coaches, just coaching and what you do with coaching and mentoring, there's still a need to advocate why that creates value in a company. Do not just take a job, take the money quietly, do some coaching and advocacy and then get surprised when you don't make the cut. If you haven't put the work in to advocate what you're doing but also show the real value and chat about it, you've got to be careful you don't become needy. Oh, Ian's always talking about everything he does. You've got to be careful you don't go past confidence into arrogance. All of those things are true, but that isn't the problem in the market. The problem in the market is people are not saying what they're doing. Yeah, should we move on?

Speaker C: It's empowering the customer to appreciate the value that's being delivered and to move the dial to the point where they don't want to get rid of you because they can't afford to give up on those improvements.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, number two then was be a continuous learner. So again, I was asked this by an agile coach, but actually it could be again, consultancy and everything. And my reply to this guy was the key word in the word agile. Coach is coach, not agile. Agile is a subject matter, expertise, area that you need to know, but the skill set is actually coaching. So why not learn to coach other things? Why not learn to coach coding? Why not learn to coach AI? Why not learn to coach product? So although it's a tweet statement across the industry and you know, everyone in LinkedIn is saying it, it is the actual truth that what you need to do if you're a coach is learn to coach other things, become good at other things. Quick point on this. Uh, I had a call at the current company I'm at one day when, uh, the guy who was working there came to me with an idea for something to do, to do onboarding. And I said, why me? Why have you come to me? And he went, well, you're the AI guru, aren't you? You're the guy who knows how to do it in AI. I did this manually. I'd like us to do it with AI. And I don't know who to talk to now. We'll deal with what he was asking about. But the fact he sort of picked my name at random out of the entire company to talk to is about some of the journeying I've done as a person to understand what the future is and what I want to be coaching in the future and I want to be coaching people and I want to be coaching AI and I want to be coaching product and I want to be coaching these things. So being a continuous learner is very important. I mean, you know, you told me a story which is, um, you know, ah, someone who, you know, invests a lot of their income into training and I do, I do that. You know, I do. Steve, you and I have been on training courses on training from the back of the room together and other things. I will pick courses. Um, I've become a lean, uh, sorry, leadership circle practitioner. I just last year become a Belbin team practitioner. Uh, to learn extra skills. I went on the Oxford University's exec leadership course. And I'm not perfect, but I have gone off and found things that were worth learning about to improve me Continuous learner. Steve, what do you think of that?

Speaker C: Yeah. Again it's this discomfort thing. Um, it is uncomfortable to keep on having to learn new stuff and to um, uh, not just have that comfort zone of going oh I know everything, I don't need training, I'm absolutely fine and no you don't need to go on a formal training course. But I do know of one person who's particularly successful who told me that they go on a course a month.

Speaker A: Wow.

Speaker B: Um, a month. Is this free courses or paid courses, do you know?

Speaker C: It doesn't matter. I imagine it's a big mixture. But they were getting proper accredited qualifications out of this. But they were also that they were pushing themselves. I just remember Steve Jobs who um, when he was at university, you know one of the reasons that Apple has become the design uh, got um, is recognized for being a lovely design is he ah, he used to pop into the um, uh design classes and look at how people made fonts and the distance between the characters and the moods of different fonts um, give you. And it's just, he kind of, he was an IT guy and he was doing this graphic design and he was pushing it and he was learning about new stuff and that those uh, attendances had a massive effect. And I know people who are really pushing it that you know, they may be an Agile coach but they're going now we need to learn how to be a general coach, a business coach, a personal coach, um, or need to learn AI or need to learn how to develop applications on you know, a particular platform, um, you know AWS or Google or learn to code Java. I know a good great coach who learned to code Java just so he understood what the team were doing because he didn't code in Java and he took that through to getting a qualification in Java programming. Didn't use it per se, but it's just this idea of discomfort and the discomfort is in personal development and challenging yourself to be learning all the time. And uh, maybe it'll be useful, maybe it won't. Uh, I know one person who got um, uh an HR qualification. Um, there was nothing to do with what they were doing at the time and then later on in a few years later that they were able to have peer to peer conversations with the HR department in an organization and really affect massive organizational change because they were ah, a peer of the guys in HR because they got this ah, HR accreditation. And so it doesn't necessarily need to be aligned directly to what you're doing. Um, you should just always be in a state of pushing it forwards and don't accept the comfort zone that I've got all the skills I need to do the job, but just go, well, what else could I do?

Speaker B: What.

Speaker C: And I suppose the challenge is, what am I going to learn this month?

Speaker B: Yeah, that's a great question. Uh, what I'm going to learn this month. I mean, just reflecting on what you said and, um, thinking of the HR thing. I know that story, obviously. Um, one of the things that creates is how you can distinguish yourself from other people, how you can be. Yes, I'm a. I'm this. But I've also got this skill. I've got a little bit of that in me. Um, I remember once when I did the Oxford University courses, you said to me, why are you doing them? And I said, to learn some new things to distinguish myself, to give myself a bit of a thing that no one else has got. Um, last week I met someone new in my current role. They found out I was a leadership circle profile practitioner. And they were like, I've really wanted to do that. I haven't had a chance yet. Tell me about it. And it really opened the door for me with that person to connect to them for what we're doing moving forward. So finding these things and getting on with them. I mean, this Christmas, I wasn't working. Over December and January, I spent the entire time doing vibe code coding, literally from Dear Google AI Studio, Tell me how to Vibe code. I started getting ideas, I started trying them out, I started doing them. I remember my wife saying to me, I thought you weren't working. And I went, well, I'm not working, but I'm still on a computer. That's okay, isn't it? Um, gosh, it sounds like I'm perfect. I'm not. You know that, Steve. You know that very well. Anyway, so that's point two, which is be a continuous learner. I was doing a training course in Africa, um, a few weeks ago last year. Uh, it was a business course. And we were loads of things we did all week for, uh, you know, there was sort of, you know, 100 people who are entrepreneurs. And of all the things I did, because you're talking all the time and you're doing Q and A's. The one thing. Well, there were two things. I might as well say the two things, the one, the thing they reacted to strongly was find other ways to get income. Find income streams that you can use later, invest in them now, so they come on. But the one that really, I noticed was I, when I answered the question by saying, Two times a week I put L3 in my diary for an hour. And I said, do you know what L3 is? And they went, no. And I went, it stands for lifelong learner. So I put two one hour slots in my diary every week to think, okay, I'm going to learn something. I may have that planned, I may have a course that I'm on or a, um, sort of self development thing, but possibly I'm just going to go, okay, I've got an hour. What am I going to learn? What do I do? Some research? What's McKinsey up to? What is someone saying on this subject? Who's a good, who do I Listen to on LinkedIn? What are they saying at the moment? And all I'm really saying is the audience reacted strongly to that point. They all wrote it down, they all saw it as a real way forward. Out of all the things I said over a week of a business conference and I was speaking every day for two hours, that was the one that they all reacted to and all started writing it and nodding on it. So be a continuous learner, lifelong learner. Okay, should we move on? Shall I go to point three? So, uh, the third thing you said, Steve, at the time, which really hit me was build your network,

Speaker A: uh, build

Speaker B: your network, diligence and purpose, get on with it. Even before we started talking, you were telling me about your sort of strategy on LinkedIn. Tell me all about that. And not just the LinkedIn bit. All of it. All of it. All the idea of building. I'll say one thing on this. I don't think unless you have a process that does this properly, like I do five connects a day, you're going to talk about that, or I do, uh, three people in my company that I'm going to go and have a coffee with. Virtual maybe, or. But a process that is a framework. Not just, oh, I should do it, but an actual framework that gets you going over to you.

Speaker C: Yeah. So again, this is the comfortable thing, is to stick with what you've got regarding your connections. The discomfort is to reach out and to build, um, beyond the area that you're, that you're currently working in. So an example could be that you've got a team that you're working with. You show up, you do great things with that team and they're grateful. But the people that survive in organizations are people who have visibility beyond the team. In fact, if people know your name, they can link the name to the face, to what you've done, and they See you on these spreadsheets that go around where they've got the, uh, consultants and the cost, and they're kind of looking at putting them in an order and then drawing a line across and then ones below they go. And these spreadsheets exist. It's a thing, it, uh, has to be done. But, um, if you are known, then that will advocate for you when you're not there. And if people in the organization know who you are, um, uh, rather than just being a gray, quiet person who's diligently doing their job, but they're kind of a little bit, uh, uh, forthright about ensuring that people know who they are, um, then you are more likely to survive those cuts. If people who are in that room who are poring over the spreadsheet, um, don't know your name, then there's no loyalty to you. Um, ah, you're just a number on a sheet. And especially if you've not delivered value that they can talk about, um, I suppose this goes hand in hand with value because if you're delivering value, then people will know who is that person. Oh, uh, okay, it's them. Okay. Um, then that's more likely to advocate for you and protect you when you're not there. So the LinkedIn thing that you mentioned is that you, I mean, this is just a personal thing, uh, that I didn't have enough people in my network in retail at a senior level. It was a bit of an empty area and for reasons, uh, that being outside this chat, I do want to increase, um, the number of people I'm connected to in retail. And so what I've discovered is that you can, without LinkedIn Premium or sales Navigator or anything like that, just find, uh, five people each day who are senior that you want to connect to and just reach out to them and send them an invitation. Don't explain anything because you just give them words to not accept.

Speaker A: And

Speaker C: about one a day will accept. Um, and sometimes that's very delayed. It could be three months delayed. But what happens is the LinkedIn algorithm then starts to go, oh, senior people in retail. Oh, I'll start offering these senior people in retail. And then, uh, after a while you find that you don't even need to go searching for these people because LinkedIn, when you connect, he says, oh, you might be interested in these people too. It will list a whole load of people. You just look down the list and go, yeah, click Connect, Connect, connect, connect, connect. Right, that's my, um, 15 seconds of M networking done today. And when they Reach back. When they connect, then you just sort of, then you start a conversation. Hi, um, well, let's have a 15 minute chat and see what we've got in common. Or you know, um, oh, I connected to you for these reasons. Um, and that is something that will then just start to snowball because LinkedIn will start popping, isn't it? But you can do the same thing in an organization. You can do the same thing in a company. Um, if you're working a large organization or if you work in a company that's got suppliers and customers and so on, you can just reach out. They don't need to say yes, they don't need to say yes. But if they do, then that's a two way connection and that's the first step towards getting a relationship and known to them and trust. But it is people who are known who survive these uh, these cuts. And I think it's again, it's not a comfortable thing to do for, you know, for many people, um, if you're more on the introverted side of things, it feels very, very difficult to reach out. And what if I, you know, if I reach out to someone and connect and then they sort of say hi, what do I do? Um, well you do have AI that can give you some suggestions as to how you can deal with that situation. So and just cut and paste and, and see where you get. But the important thing is, is to embrace discomfort and to, to get out there within an organization and to connect beyond your immediate circle.

Speaker B: Let me put that into some specifics for people because a lot of our audience will be people who sort of go, I get the principle but I'm not very good at this. Here's how I do it. Specifically on LinkedIn. My message on LinkedIn is LinkedIn suggests we connect because we've got things in common. Question mark, are you interested? Question mark. That's it. That's all I put in. What I'm not doing is trying to tell anybody why it's a benefit to know Ian Banner. I'm not here to try and sell anything. I don't go, hi, I'm an agile coach. This is what I do for a living. None of that, I'm just on LinkedIn. I'm just saying LinkedIn suggests, uh, it's neutral. I'm not trying to sell anything. And as you say, do five a day. Some of them will connect back with you because they'll look at you, by the way, on LinkedIn as well as your profile and what you say, Write something on LinkedIn and pin it. Whatever it is that you is you, is what you're about. Put it on LinkedIn and pin it. I was advising a guy who was, uh, losing his job at a company, and he said, what should I do? And I went, one thing you should do is write an article. That is your reason to be on LinkedIn. And he wrote an article, used AI to do it, and helped him. And we looked at it together, and it was simply, why I'm not yet ready to give up my final moments of design to AI. And this was him. This is what he believed in life. And he made it in an article, pinned it, and when I spoke to him a month ago, he got three offers for jobs because it got to what he is. So that's LinkedIn. Uh, within an office, it's really a completely different process. And here's what you need to do. One of the things you need to. Steve, you said it really well. There will be meetings where a bunch of people together are looking at spreadsheets. Your name's on the spreadsheet. You want as many of those people to know who you are as you can. So try and find out, you know, who's having those meetings and when you know they are. These days, it's mainly teams, but you go onto teams and you say, hi. Your name popped up in a meeting. Do you fancy a coffee? That's again, that's all it needs to be. Um, you know, um, I think, um, I think a CEO of a company.

Speaker A: Uh,

Speaker B: I was in the company and I messaged him on team, saying, I'm interested in how you think I can add more value while I'm here at this company. I'll, uh, put a meeting in and we can talk. That was it. That's all I said. Now, did he appear at the first meeting? No, he didn't. He just ignored it completely. Did he appear at the second meeting? No, he ignored it completely. Then he put a meeting in my diary to ask me to do something for him. And then when he came on the call, the first thing he said was, you know, you're the only person I've ever had a coach who wrote to me saying, how can I deliver more value, huh? Anyway, can you do this for me, please? You know, and I went on to do it, so you get the idea. Okay, so there's probably enough on those now. Uh, I've got my final statement is, you know what? My. For one other way of putting it. Now, what my signature is on emails and things. Um, and I want to mention that. And then Steve, it's back to you for the final wrap, if that's okay. So just so you know, this is what my signature says now. Work and business, it goes. I use AI, Agile, Lean and Product thinking to get stuff done and help others do the same. Sometimes this involves helping people see the world slightly differently so they can get stuff done. That's what it is. Now, um, I want to mention why you'll notice there's only one thing in there that's repeated and it's get stuff done, uh, that isn't like, oh, I don't know what I'm typing. That's deliberate. I want to get stuff done in at the start and at the end because it's about delivery and uh, you know, so that, anyway, so that. I hope that helps. Steve, over to you for the finals then. Um, what's your final thoughts for today?

Speaker C: The overriding thought is that the people who are successful in not just getting, um, retained, um, at renewal time, but also in going up the hierarchy, increasing their responsibility and their rate are uh, people who embrace discomfort through delivering valuable visibly to continual personal development and networking beyond your team.

Speaker B: Perfectly said, mate. And powerful stuff. Thank you. Okay, uh, if you enjoyed this uh, podcast, there's a guy coming or tell you how to get more from us. The Future of work, uh, Mastery is the uh, website you can go to. Uh, if you subscribe there, you'll also get other things, goodies from us. Um, wherever you got this podcast, subscribe to it. Please comment like get in touch to me you want to talk to Steve, Just start with the podcast links and I'll filter them and pass them on to Steve. Steve, thanks very much for your time today. Really appreciate it. Take care.

Speaker C: Bye bye.

Speaker A: That's it for this week. Join us next time for more insight on the future of work. There is also a linktree site which is at linktree. Ian Banner. If you like this pop podcast and please like subscribe, follow and tell your friends, send them a link, it's for free.