ILT014 Navigating Finance and Leadership: A Conversation with Eagle Eye CFO Lucy Sharman-Munday (S2 EP06)

Lucy Sharman-Munday: My first job was with a company called Isoft which was a plc. So I'm sure that a lot about them maybe for the wrong reason but I joined them with the role to do M and A. So to build the business up. My first week I was there and I was reporting into the financial controller and one morning literally people came in and started removing computers and people getting, getting moved of the business for the background. For people who didn't know, there was then a big investigation into sort of financial irregularities.

Narrator: Hello and welcome to season two of Investing for the Long Term hosted by Downing fund managers Judith McKenzie and Downing investment consultant Rosemary Banyard. During season two, Judith and Rosemary continue to take you on a journey through their extensive network. Fund managers, co company founders, CEOs and um, CFOs from across the investment sphere. And today's guest is Lucy Sharman Munday. Lucy is the chief financial officer at AIM listed EagleEye Solutions and um, the non executive director at microleyes. Lucy shares EagleEye Solutions product offering, her career journey and insights into the evolving role of finance directors including the impact of leadership on company culture. Now just before we get started, please remember that all opinions and information are uh, for educational purposes only and do not constitute investment advice. Investing carries a high level of risk and is not right for everyone. Always do your own research and seek financial advice from a regulated financial advisor in your country before making any financial decisions. With that being said, let's get started.

Judith McKenzie: So here we are today with Alisa Sharman Mundy who is the founder finance director of Eagle Eye, which is a company uh, that Danny has been an investor in for quite a few years now. I'm sure Lucille described the company better than I do, but in very simple terms Eagle Eye is a very smart technology software as a service digital marketing platform. And for you and I, we would probably understand it as the coupons and loyalty that create value for both the retailer but also us as consumers and has a uh, fantastic list of clients including John Lewis, Asda, Tesco, Marks and Spencers, Pizza Express and M, many others. But Lucy, I've struggled a little bit in terms of trying to describe what the company does, what Eagle Eye does, but why don't you give it a good go?

Lucy Sharman-Munday: Thank you. I think you did a very good job as you do. Um, but yeah, we're a SaaS business, a marketing platform and how I describe it to people in the first instance is there's three really important things that you need in terms of omnichannel marketing. You need data and analytics and AI, which is increasingly clearly being, first of all, more affordable and accessible to people. And, um, because of that moment, now that we're dealing with, you need a transaction layer, a powerful transaction layer to make sure you execute against those instructions from the analytics layer. And then you need a customer experience on the top, which can be anything from what the consumer sees to a loyalty program, design, et cetera. The core platform of Eagle Eye is firmly in that middle layer. So we're a digital transaction layer that executes against analytics and AI. Recently, in the last couple of years, we've bought an analytics business, which we're now an AI business that is doing analytics on promotions. So that's becoming also a core part of our offering.

Rosemary Banyard: So, Lucy, I think I've only seen you once or twice on online calls. Could you start by telling us a bit about your early career journey? How did you get into being a finance director?

Lucy Sharman-Munday: Yeah, I started my career at kpmg, which were eight brilliant years. I really loved them. Um, I trained with them. Um, I met some great friends and I was able to work on incredible clients, travel around the world, and I did lots of all the bits and pieces around the edge. So I did a lot of work with the recruitment side of kpmg, going into universities, encouraging new graduates to come on board. I joined the VOS volleyball team. Hadn't played volleyball before, but we did two national tours. So for me, KPMG was more than just the start of my career. It, uh, really set the foundation in terms of how I went forward. And I'm very grateful for those years. And then I did actually a stint in internal audit as well as just pure audit. The main reason at the time was quite selfish because I got to travel a lot more, so I did quite a lot of international travel with them. And I got to that point that I just felt, I think a lot of people do that. They just wanted to be in business a bit more. You touched the surface and then, you know, you moved on to the next client. So I think that's quite a common answer of why people move out into industry. My first job was with a company called Isoft, which was a poc. So I'm sure that will know a lot about them, maybe for the wrong reason, but I joined them with the role to do M and A, so to build the business up. My first week, week I was there and I was reporting into the financial controller and one morning where literally people came in and started removing computers and people getting, getting moved out of the business. For the background for people who didn't know, there was then a big investigation into sort of financial irregularities in the business. And this was my first week. So I was thinking, what happens now? What, what does my future look like? And then the share price plummeted as a result once it hit the press, et cetera. But it created an amazing opportunity for suddenly was then reported into the cfo, a, uh, gentleman called Gavin James, who was an incredible mentor for me and basically I became his sort of bag carrier. And I traveled a lot around the world looking at the businesses that we had and we basically got the business ready for sale over a two year period. It was an experience where I thought I was going in to do one thing, but I ended up doing another. And we had various different advisors coming in to help. It's about managing the cash. It was making sure you strip the business back of the assets that were not profitable. So it was a really different look into business and a difficult look into business but very good education for me in terms of the next stage of my career. It was also in tech and software and lucky or clever, who knows. But that was then the start of my career in tech. So I did various businesses thereafter and I've stayed in technology and software since, building up my career and doing actually more of a traditional route after that job in terms of building up to be CFO and um, enjoying it ever since.

Judith McKenzie: But let's go right back, let's go right back to the Lucy that was, I don't know, 15, 16, 17, because it's quite a decision to go into accountancy, especially one of the big four, one of the big five. What was the inspiration to do that?

Lucy Sharman-Munday: Well, I didn't want to be an accountant at the start. That wasn't my life plan. My life plan was to be a doctor.

Judith McKenzie: Yeah.

Lucy Sharman-Munday: And if you want to be a doctor, you had to be so committed to it. Uh, and I wanted to do that since sort of an earlier, a really early age. And I did almost work experience in hospitals, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I was always good at math. You know, I really enjoyed maths. It was logical I got an answer at the end of it. That's what I really loved about maths. And then at my A levels I didn't get the grades I needed to be a doctor. And I had this moment of like complete failure and hadn't experience that moment before having to do that reset and think right, had this moment of this isn't one I was planning to do. How am I going to move forward at the age of 18 is quite. I'm still quite young, lots of emotions going through and I felt that maths was always my backup plan. But within 24 hours I'd got a place at Manchester University to do accountancy and life was back on track again. I think about that moment a lot. It was a huge sliding doors moment. I didn't quite have control of it but life's been very good for me coming down the accountancy career and to be honest, I don't actually like sickness so I don't know how.

Judith McKenzie: I think with the benefit of hindsight, I think you made the right career choice.

Rosemary Banyard: Yeah.

Lucy Sharman-Munday: So yeah, I've really loved my career today and uh, hopefully I've got a lot more in me but it was one of those sort of life changing moments.

Judith McKenzie: Yeah, but it shows you, doesn't it? Because I think it's being able to pick yourself up after that and say, okay, that opportunity is gone but what's the next one? And actually it can be just as exciting if not more so if you can brush yourself down and get back up again. Which isn't. Yeah, it's not easy to do when you're 18 is it? That's the issue. Or any age actually.

Lucy Sharman-Munday: Yeah. As I find it, it is. And therefore I think because being a doctor is so vocational, I sort of needed another career that had that same sort of feel to it as KPMG in terms of structure. I applied to Big 5 as it was at the time but yeah, that, that was how I. Yeah, but it

Judith McKenzie: sounded like it was a bit of kpmg, uh, the traineeship, et cetera or apprenticeship, whatever you call it. It sounded a bit like a lifestyle as well, not just a job which is a great way to start a career, isn't it? Where you're with like minded people at the same age.

Lucy Sharman-Munday: Yeah, exiting. That is a uh, really interesting point Judith because I think school, you home m into people that are like you, same interests as you, you go to university, it's a much bigger pool and. But then you find you're saying tribe things, that people have got the same interests of you, you have interests outside of your degree, et cetera and then actually you go narrow again. Actually going into accountancy, going into kpmg there was the same sort of filter process. It was brilliant. I absolutely loved it and I can't speak highly enough of uh, businesses that have traineeships like that because I think it is an all rounded experience for graduates coming in sets Them up so well for the future.

Judith McKenzie: Yeah. Is it 15 years we've been at, uh, Eagle Eye? I might have that 10.

Lucy Sharman-Munday: Yeah. We floated in 2014 and I came in just after the float and at that time when we floated, I think in hindsight we were too small to float. We were only turning over a couple of million and we bought a business. The reason we floated was because at the same time as doing the ipo, we bought a business. There was a big business that was shrinking and the owners wanted public paper as part of the deal structure. That was the primary reason for us going on to onto aim. But at that time we were I think about sort of 25 people in a little old office in Guildford in a Regis building. And we bought this business in Manchester that was similar sort of size. We doubled overnight. But the good thing about buying the business to ergo because they'd been big and they'd also been listed as they came with all the good governance and the structure that you just don't have have automatically when you've grown from a founder. A founder sort of structure.

Rosemary Banyard: So just to clarify, so you weren't the FD through the IPO process or were you? Right, so you escaped that particular gem

Lucy Sharman-Munday: m of a job? Yes, I did, yeah. I. They floated in April and I joined them in July because I think they clearly when you go through the process, they say who's the finance director? And they're like looking around thinking, I don't know who the finance director is. Yeah, so that was part of my job and actually I'm good at building things up and um, taking a business from what it was then to what it is now and putting in that structure, the governance, all that good stuff. It suits me and my personality and skill set.

Rosemary Banyard: But quite a big decision to go to uh, what sounds like a really small company. You've been at KPMG soft from my recollection, it wasn't small, it was quite extensive in what it did. And now you're in a business with 25 people and. But it gets a bit bigger. What were your recollections of that experience of being somewhere terribly small between ISOFT

Lucy Sharman-Munday: and then I'd had several jobs sort of every three years I was moving for the next position, the bigger role. They were medium sized businesses, but some VC backed, some slightly different structure, but they weren't listed businesses. But they had a similar theme in terms of they were growing, they weren't the size of ISOFT and they weren't the size of kpmg. I just felt that you could make a significant difference in that kind of organization. I was really attracted to Eagle Eye because of the opportunity that I thought it presented. The business I worked for before was a company called FiveOne and they did. They were very much in the similar kind of space. So they had big retailers as clients and they were predominantly doing that bottom layer of the pyramid that I described in terms of the analytics piece. So I'd been in this sort of space so I understood it and I understood it well and I understood the need for it. But what Eagle Eye was offering or really focusing on was personalization. When I was working in 5.1, it was very much around segmentation. The world's moved on now to true personalization. We all in our day to day lives in most things we touch things are personalized to us. Whether it's our Spotify, whether it's on Mac, whether it's on Netflix. Everything we open with a digital connection usually has personalized to us. So if the three of us opened up on Netflix we wouldn't have anything the same that looked or displays would be very different in terms of retail. That's just taken a little bit of time to catch up all of our shopping experiences. I'm sure we would agree there's still way to go on personalization and Eagle Eyes right at the heart of that enabling it, which is what I was really attracted to. I saw the vision, the founder was still in the business at that point and I just thought it would be a good combination of everything that I'd learned but my opportunity to make something really special.

Judith McKenzie: I guess that's what we or what we see in the business as well. And I think in businesses like yours where you're part of a kind of evolving evolutionary product set and solution, then you've got to, you've got to be able to adapt and grow. And I think that's one thing that it. I've been quite impressed with Eagle Eye. You talked there when you came in there was a founder in the business. And I've invested many founder led businesses, especially in the tech space before and Rosemary has too. And that can be quite a painful journey sometimes. And I think being able to be there through that process with the founder going, Tim coming in as well. And you do have some quite strong personalities on your board, I suspect so. Just listeners, sir, Terry Leahy who was uh, exactly. Tesco boss is a big, a reasonable shareholder. 8%, 9% shareholder.

Lucy Sharman-Munday: That's right. Yeah.

Judith McKenzie: And to Mason Tube exec was he Cheap exec or was he number two?

Lucy Sharman-Munday: Yeah, number two.

Judith McKenzie: So you've got two pretty strong characters that have been the lifeblood of UK retail in this relatively small technology company. In terms of what you can see. How does that play out?

Lucy Sharman-Munday: How lucky am I? And seriously, to be able to. To work with two incredible businessmen has been an absolute privilege for me, especially when I came in sort of 10 years ago. The board was very different then. It was quite traditional. It was male dominated. I was the only woman on the board and a relatively young woman at that time. So it was quite a different dynamic to the board that we have today, which is a lot more diverse. I've grown more confident. But having Terry on the board is an incredible privilege. Tim describes it as, when you think Terry's gonna zig, he probably will zag. And therefore, as a recipient of the questioning and the challenging, it just makes you make sure your brain's open and it m encourages you to think differently. Yeah. And I think that has got to be the success of how businesses move forward. It's not about always doing the same thing or thinking the same way. You've got to constantly evolve, as you said, Jud, that the best businesses don't stand still and the world is changing very dramatically right now and you have to be one step ahead. So I think that is the biggest gift that Terry brings to the board is makes you think differently and challenges you in a way because of his experience. Tim and Terry worked together for 30 years, so they again bring something very different. That's why they were success. Sort of a yin and a yang in terms of approaches and personalities. Tim is huge on people and believe that actually putting people right in the heart of a business, let's face it, we spent 80% of our costs on people. You've got to get the most out of them. And he really transformed the culture of the organization. Empowers people in terms of what they do. And the business pre and post him is unrecognizable. He's clearly got many different skills. That is the probably the most recognizable thing I've seen across all the businesses I've worked in. Has been so different from a CEO. Uh, coming from a big business, as you say, is interesting and different. I think because of his people skills and the love of people and the passion around that. He can work in both, I think, and be successful in both.

Rosemary Banyard: I think I've got a, uh, non exec directorship. Microlise, can you tell us a bit about how being an NED on another Board helps you in your day job.

Lucy Sharman-Munday: Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it, when you get to a position where you love a company and you've been there for quite a while, how do you keep learning and evolving? And actually I think being an NAD is part of that education, uh, and growth. And it works both ways because microlies came to the market again and didn't have any experience of being on it on AIM or listed experience. So they were looking for people to support the management team and guide and help and challenge them around that being a sort of a current CFO on AIM is helpful for them. But roles reverse. I think seeing different businesses and how they operate and the exposures that they have is very valuable. For instance, which is clearly published, that Microlise have just been subject to a significant cyber attack. It's not the experience that you want to do, but the reality is probably most directors on boards at some point in the next five years are going to be on a business that's unfortunately subject to that. So knowing how to deal with that, uh, how to cope, who you call, what process you follow, how do you recover quickly? It's very valuable in terms of just your education and what you can transfer in terms of taking the best bits into different businesses. Yeah, I find it useful. It's interesting. I was, I was at a female sort of Women in the city dinner about 18 months ago and from the room, these were successful women in C level positions and only a very small proportion of them had med jobs as well. And um, the sort of chat around my table, it was quite interesting was a whole lack of confidence around, oh, would I be able to do it or not? Or I'm not sure that I would have got skills. And I was saying, of course you've got, of course you've got the skills. You know, you're on a board of a listed business. We started to touch on boards there before and what makes a good board, but I think diversity is a really important part of what makes it, uh, a good board. The balance coming at it from different angles. And I'm sure the majority of people in that room would have been skills that would be transferable and it's got to be the right company to support subject to your skills.

Judith McKenzie: I think there's two points there, isn't there? One is just our usual kind of a reluctance to push ourselves forward as females. But I think there's also one thing that I'm really trying to champion as well, is that it's okay to have a full time job and be a non exec. And I think some of the best non execs I've seen are those that are still practicing the terrible way that we've got in the uk. That you only go on to do non execs and become plural once you're retired is just absolute, um, nonsense. You need to catch people at the best time in their careers, not when they're thinking about like going golfing or something. So the more that we can encourage people like yourself to take roles and I think again, that's probably to do with Sir Terry and Tim as well. If many times when a board of a company gets approached by somebody that's on the exec team to ask if they could do a non exec, they'd say no. And we've got to get over that and actually understand that allowing people to do other roles out with their day job means that they're bringing so much more back to the party as well.

Lucy Sharman-Munday: 100%. Tim was very supportive of me doing that. Clearly it's a limit to how much I do and you've got to focus on the number one. But also you see in terms of shareholders voting against you because you've got another job as well. And so.

Judith McKenzie: Oh, do you?

Lucy Sharman-Munday: Yeah, yeah. You do see that in terms of@ah, AGMs M, people that generally get to directors that get a voted office when they've got this rule that they can't have more than a day job and an NAD ship. But I completely agree with you, Jude. You're the most relevant when you're experiencing it yourself. And as we know, the world is changing so fast around regulation, around technology. How can you be. Now you can offer something different but that relevancy, uh, stands for a lot, I think.

Judith McKenzie: Yeah, more of it. That's what we need.

Rosemary Banyard: Can we ask a bit more about your finance role? Something that I've been made aware of is that the role of a finance director has been changing from being what we might have called a bean counter, adding up the numbers to being much more strategic, partly enabled by just all the better data and the AI information that you've got. Can you just say a bit about that? And how is that your experience?

Lucy Sharman-Munday: Yeah, 100%. Now I actually have an SD that reports to me he's very technical, he's brilliant in terms of. He loves the technical stuff. He likes to beat the auditors, he's that kind of guy. So he's like the perfect number two that you would want it in that position. Position. But what that does is that uh, it frees me up to be the business partner to Tim to work on the strategy of and the growth of the organization. So if there's an M and A activity, I work on that. For example, it's running the business alongside Tim. And Tim does a lot of travel too. So I deputize on the sort of the day to day operational side if he's out of the country, for example. So there's a lot more. I, uh, think the CFO is the, you know, it's the ying to the yang of the CFO and the CEO have got to work well together, but they can't be carbon copies of one another. The benefit of the CFO is I think they do have that grounding around the numbers and the importance of watching the cash flow and the profitability, et cetera, et cetera. So you're filtering the decisions, the wide decisions to something that is right and reflective of the direction. So yeah, Rosemary, you're absolutely right. For me that has been how I have grown over the last sort of 10 years. And not everybody's at a size or the ability that they can have a, uh, number two that is super technical. But I do a broader role in the organization. And when we started our Canadian office, we didn't have an executive over there. So I was spending most months setting up the office and getting us ready for the launch of our big customer over there. So I was doing a bit of customer facing stuff as well. Well as people management and I like that. And I. Going back to the question of bigger organizations, I don't think I wouldn't have had that same experience. And if I'd been in a different kind of organization that was more rigid and less flexible.

Judith McKenzie: Yeah. But certainly from a shareholder perspective, I think that really comes across when you and Tim present, I should say, terrible. Tim doesn't need to be in the room. You know, all parts of the business, but you also know the numbers. And I think that gives me as a shareholder, that gives me a lot of confidence that actually there is a proper tag team and a discipline around the numbers as well. And sometimes you get an FD that only speaks when they're asked what the ebitda, uh, or the debt ratio is. And that's disappointing because you find that they're probably not having the reach and the challenge to the chief exec that they should be having. So it's quite encouraging to see the depth of knowledge that you got right away across the business, which is good.

Narrator: You. Thanks.

Judith McKenzie: I suppose we should ask some of the more traditional questions because I think we could probably chat about Eagle Eye and your backstory for most of this, but we should just. To dig out some other nuggets, we should probably look at some other little random questions. What's the best advice that you'd give somebody about becoming a financial director?

Lucy Sharman-Munday: I don't know whether it's financial director or it's just general sort of career advice generally for people. But I think going back to that story we talked about before, around, uh, your early years, you mix and work with your same type and people that have the same interests and thrive and motivation. When you come out into industry, that's different. I remember in Isoft that I suddenly was on a bank of desks with sort of the whole sort of finance group finance team. There's one wonderful lady called Sheila I remember, who's probably in her 50s at the time, and I was in my 20s. She was the accounts payable clerk. She was such a character and she was brilliant at her job. And she's one of these people that used to make, uh, cakes before we started work. So she'd bring all the mixture in. We didn't have an oven, so she would make cakes with a hole in the middle, and she'd make them in the microwave and if it was somebody's birthday. So she was an absolute superstar, an absolute gem. But I just hadn't had that interaction with working with somebody older than me with very different likes and interests, et cetera. And so quite quickly had to be able to adapt to work with different people with different motivations. And I think that's been a common theme throughout that part of my career to now. I think sometimes when you're so driven, you just think everybody should be carbon copy of yourself. You know, everybody should be working incredibly hard. We should all be focusing on the same way. We should have the same diligence in how we present something and what a PowerPoint should look like. And to realize that is not the way of the world. And to get the best out of everybody, you don't treat somebody like they are a carbon copy of yourself. I think is the most valuable bit of advice. I think that I would tell my younger self and to learn to accept and adapt different ways of work is how you will get the best out of people. Because getting the best out of business is about everybody being at their best, not just you.

Judith McKenzie: That's good advice. So, uh, just looking back then, uh, uh, what would you say was the most challenging period of your career? So far. And how did you cope with it?

Lucy Sharman-Munday: I did have, and I won't mention much company, but I did have a period of challenge where I felt I couldn't fit in. When I've been at my best, which has been sort of the majority of my career, I've had a mentor in mind which has been always, as you heard from the, the isoft days actually fortunately has always been at the C suite. There was one period where actually my boss and I didn't gel as well as I thought we were going to. And um, as a result of that, you know, I didn't get the opportunities, I didn't get the recognition of the work that I was doing. And um, I think what that taught me is it is so important. Another bit of career advice. But it is so important as you're going through your career and you do interview processes and people are interviewing you and you think you're being interviewed. It's not. It's a two way street as the person coming in, your boss and you have got to have a really great relationship. You don't have to be the same. In fact, look for things that are different. But think, see, can you compliment each other, can you work together? And I actually think being too similar is not a good thing in terms of what you both bring to the party. Yeah. So that was probably the most challenging part of my career. And interestingly so I uh, to get through that I sought out a coach to help me, which was a wonderful lady called Jill Avery. And unfortunately she passed away a few years ago. But she really helped me get my confidence up and convinced me that I could do it. And I'd never had that moment of self doubt before. So what do I take from that? It's very easy to go off track if you don't have the right things around you.

Judith McKenzie: Yeah. Uh, and what did you do? Did you take yourself out of that situation or what? How did you. How did it manifest itself in the.

Lucy Sharman-Munday: There was actually a change of leadership. Sort of helpful. It was helpful because it actually in the new world I thrived. So I was. Then I was able to say it wasn't. It wasn't necessarily me. Yeah, yeah. I think that is. So I took the steps by getting the coaching to see where there was things that. And I did start doing things slightly differently which I thought was quite fascinating.

Judith McKenzie: That's good advice. Good face.

Rosemary Banyard: You've had an amazing career as described so far. Lots of um, I'm sure to come, but so far is there anything you pick out as being your proudest achievement.

Lucy Sharman-Munday: I mean there's lots of little wins along the way, I'd say. And I think the best moments have been things that I've done with other people. Whether it was selling ice or it was buying anti um. Knots. Ethical eye. Things that I think things that have got a start and a finish to them. The things that make me. Me proud and um, demonstrates success. Success to me. One of the things I would pull out is, which does really make me proud is that when in sort of 2020, sort of COVID time, sort of International Women Day, then I'd never done anything for the organization for International Women's Day. I was on m. That mentality of the best person gets the job. It doesn't matter what you look like, whether you're a man or a woman. I was a bit male with my approach to approach. And I thought, no, actually I should stop and think. I should stop and think about this because I've got. I've got a duty being sort of a senior exec. And so what I asked all the women in the organization to send me a photo and tell me what International Women Day, Women's Day meant to them in a word or a, uh, sort of a small sentence. Basically. I sort of pulled that all together and put that on display and did a small half an hour speech on the importance of women in the organization. But one of the things that came through was really the diversity and the color that brought into my day on that moment when people were talking about what was important to them and what they loved and what their passions were, et cetera, et cetera. And off the back of that speech I got sort of this overwhelming response of thank you, well done. This is so amazing. Thanks for recognizing us, uh, both from men and women in the organization. And I thought. And actually this is Tim at his best, as when I was home and we had have a daily exec standup. So we stay on it. And I was explaining the response that I'd got to the day before. And Tim said, make sure you seize this moment. And that's what he's really good at. Don't let these moments pass. So off the back of that I wrote to all the women and thanked them, but said that I think thought we need to do something with it. And so what I created was Purple Women in the cause. Purple's our sort of brand color. So. So I started this group called Purple Women. And it is the biggest sort of group that we have in the organization. It's been the Most successful, it was giving women a platform for a voice, but also to help them in their career development, et cetera. But what I'm most proud of is that two years ago one of the new starters came to me and said, Lucy, like purple women, is one of the things that really attracted me to the organization. I've read about it on the website, but I think we could do more with it. It basically a lady called Lydia and she got a representative from each of the different regions that we operate in because we operate in the US and in apac, she did version, the second version of it and made it better. And that's another ethos we have at Eagle Eye as well. In terms of it's not necessarily the first person that does something, it's the second and the third that make it really something very special. And they have done an incredible job with it. Different speakers both made women internally come out and speak about topics that we just didn't know were important to them, things that are personal to them as well, and have educated both women and men in the organization. We did a big piece on the menopause and just really what it is like to be a woman going through the menopause at work and just have transformed him. So I. That's what I think. One of the most proud things I've done in my career, but also at Eagle Eye in terms of not me, but encouraging the next generation to make.

Judith McKenzie: It's always nice to be demoted, isn't it? Once you start something, somebody comes along and says you're doing that all right, but actually I can do it even better. That's always a great moment. M. I didn't realize that. I probably suspected actually that this conversation wouldn't just be about accountancy and numbers, but actually you've taken us through probably some fantastic examples of a good management style and an ethos in a business that allows growth. So thank you for that. And I think it also resonates with people earlier in their career where they might be coming to Crossroads. So thank you very much for it.

Narrator: You're welcome.

Judith McKenzie: Thank you. One last question, though, Rosemary. You can do it.

Rosemary Banyard: Can you recommend us a book or a podcast or both?

Lucy Sharman-Munday: Yeah, actually, this is the latest thing I've listened to. It's called the Science of Scaling by Ben Hardy. I don't know whether you read that, but it's very relevant to us right now at Eagle Eye because we've set this medium term goal of being 100 million. So effectively doubling the size of the business and increasing the ebitda to over 30%. It's about how businesses do a transformation like that. There's some really interesting points that come out, but it's very digestible. So it's very easy for people to get their heads around. But it basically focuses on big goals. And there's lots of management books that talk about big goals. And we implemented okrs three years ago which are about setting sort of impossible goals because setting things that you know you can do once you've achieved them, you like. Yeah, done. Okay, I'm done on that. How's it push you to do things differently? So I'm a big supporter of that. It's very much around focus, so it encourages to think about ditching the things that are a distraction or non profitable or just not allow. You've only got so much time and capacity that only do the things that are about focusing you on doing the right things. And um, for us at Eagle Eye, we've just talked about trying to, to make us more of a SaaS business because that's, that's the right thing to do. So we're moving away from professional services, doing the stuff that we're really good at. So that sort of ticked that box. But the most interesting thing, especially when you read the examples, it talks about time using time with those dimensions to do things, to make things impossible. And by putting time against those dimensions that I've just talked about, your initial thought is, is rather than say for example, saying 100 million in a medium term, if you said do 100 million in 12 months, for example, what would you have to do? You'd have to completely rip up the rule book and think differently. And um, that has been the most interesting thing I think about listening to this podcast and reading the book is it does make you think differently. So that's what we're trying to discuss at Eagle Eye now in terms of we had some of the dimensions, but actually does time or forcing time to make you do something different. It's quite an interesting debate.

Judith McKenzie: Okay. Okay, that's another one for the list. Thank you for that, Lucy. Thank you so much. It's been a fantastic canter through your career today and I can't wait to see the next chapters as you go through the journey with Eagle Eye. And we've certainly enjoyed it so far. It's an evolution.

Lucy Sharman-Munday: Oh, thank you very much and thank you both for being great ambassadors for women in the city. Thank you both there and I always look forward to, to seeing you on the roadshow. Judith.

Judith McKenzie: I can't promise that's true, but good thing.

Narrator: Well, that's it for today. Thanks for listening and in our next episode, Judith and Rosemary will introduce you to another key person from their extensive network from across the investment sphere. If you like what you heard, please subscribe and leave a comment. And to learn more about Judith and Rosemary and Downing, please visit www. Downingfundmanagers.co.uk. all the links to are just below in the show notes. Thanks for listening and we look forward to speaking to you in the next episode.