Building Fintech Ecosystems | Inside MENA with Nameer Khan

Speaker A: On this episode of Fumo, we have with us in the studio today Mr. Namir Khan. As the chairman of the MENA Fintech association, he's going to share with us personal insights onto how he built the association, his challenges, what motivated him along the way. We'll also talk about some very important topics when it comes to the fundamental building blocks of fintech and founders in the region. What qualities do people seek? What have we seen as trends that are coming up in the industry over the years, uh, to come? As usual, we dive in deep with my partner in podcast crime, Mr. Roche, and my friend Namir Khan. A big shout out to our sponsors, Aqua now and xvc, and a mention to our community partners, the MENA Fintech association and of course, cft.

Speaker B: Namir, welcome.

Speaker C: Thank you for having me.

Speaker B: Namir Khan, Chairman of the MENA Fintech association, founder of Phil's Sustainability Podcast and what else is in your distinguished cv?

Speaker C: Namir on the board of a university.

Speaker B: Oh, Professor Khan.

Speaker A: It is Professor Khan.

Speaker B: Professor Khan.

Speaker A: It is. Yeah.

Speaker D: Wow. Joke.

Speaker B: But I don't joke about these things.

Speaker A: Social, Social sciences.

Speaker C: Is that correct?

Speaker A: Is that right?

Speaker B: So you Te teaching the kids the future of FinTech or honorary professor? Honorary, yes.

Speaker C: The honorable Ben.

Speaker A: Which university? You have to tell us.

Speaker C: Edinburgh in school.

Speaker B: Awesome. The honorary Professor Khan. So, MENA Fintech Association. Why does the region need a fintech association? What is fintech in this region?

Speaker C: So why does the region need the association? Takes me back to the initial starting days.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: There was a gap.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: Clear gap. Innovation was happening. Regulators were trying to innovate and wanting to innovate.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: But there was no platform for them to be together and to have a conversation on the same table. That was massively missing. That was the first gap. Second was that if you're trying to build an industry which today is one of the fastest growing industries and fintech in this region is surpassing growth rates of uh, fintech in other markets. It is primarily because of the opportunity over here. Number two is that if the regulators would want to establish an ecosystem or industry needs to mature, it has many other components to it running. Components such as not just regulation academia. Do you have enough talent that is going to be there to feed the growth of the industry? Third is going to be, um, in terms of, uh, you know, uh, is there a platform where these innovators can come together and share their thoughts and insights? Like today, all of us are doing it today. Fast forward. If you look at it, that's what we're doing. And yeah, I Mean you had to get this neutral platform that gives equal opportunity to every single player in this industry. And that was the intention. That's what we did.

Speaker B: And fintech in the region, Tell uh, us more about that. What is, what are the key drivers? How is it different? You said it's growing, it's growing faster than in other parts of the world. Tell us more about that.

Speaker C: So my perspective is we have seen the growth of this industry from ah, you know, from the past eight years to where it is today. You have seen this region leapfrogging. Yeah, leapfrogging in terms of um, number one pace leapfrogging in terms of regulations which came later on in the, in the stage. Right. Fintech in the region. Why has it been, why has, why has it been successful? The adoption.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: And adoption is again on multiple facets. It's like a layer. First layer is regulators understanding the opportunity.

Speaker A: M. That's one.

Speaker C: Second is consumers demanding that because you cannot change that. The common thread between all the consumers all over the world remains the same. Gen Zs Gen or the Alphas or the Millennials or the Boomers. Everyone has a certain way of operating. There may be cultural nuances that may be there, but the base foundational requirements remain the same. So that was changing. So requirement for ease, access, convenience, transparency, affordability and being able to have delightful experiences across different verticals. Thanks to the likes of the Careems of the world or the Ubers of the world or the booking.com, the Airbnbs. We had that, you know, revolution of these technology companies that changed our perception of convenience. And that leads us again to, to the same conversation that we all have had multiple times. That experience is fluid. Experience of one industry leads to the other industry. And financial services is one of the most, uh, I would say um, uh, the most frequently used sectors in our daily lives.

Speaker A: It's a cornerstone.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker A: Daily life.

Speaker C: So adoption was there. And when there's adoption and when there's regulatory intent, who's in the middle? The enablers. Right. If the enablers who are in the ecosystem don't, then they will be newer players who will come and enable.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: And that's what happened. But fast forward, when we started in the region, the quality of fintechs, if you look back, I mean eight years ago, quality of fintechs, quality of ideas was. Quality was quite nascent and quality of founders as well was not that experienced versus what we have had later on.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: So the founder quality significantly increased.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: And significantly increased in the past I, uh, would say five years. And thanks to many of our amazing founders today that have made names, uh, across the globe.

Speaker B: Let's double click on that. Yeah, Founders getting better. Founders getting, coming up with better ideas. And then this region becoming not just a me too or a catch up play. And Gaurav, you were there from the start, so let's double click on that, Gaurav. Founders getting better ideas getting better. The region not just being a catch up play or a, ah, MeToo play or some kind of old fading Xerox copy of the original. You were there at the start when NIMIR is building mfta and even before then.

Speaker A: Yep, that's right.

Speaker B: Uh, or third generation founder or what

Speaker C: do you call it?

Speaker A: Second generation.

Speaker B: Second generation.

Speaker A: Second generation. Right. So it's very accurate. You know, it's very interesting to see what was pre MFTA and what was post mfta, if I can call it that.

Speaker B: The mean, what was fintech founder life like eight years ago, nine years ago when I first moved?

Speaker A: Longer than that.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker A: I mean, if you look at it, the ecosystem had massive data gaps. There was no one connecting the dots for what was happening in regulation. There was no one connecting the dots for company setups. It was all operating in silos. Right. And so if someone wanted to attempt understanding from an investment perspective, where should I set up? Should I set up in the uae? Should I set up in Bahrain? Should I set up in Dubai, Abu Dhabi? The nuances of understanding what was beneficial, why they should do it, population, consensus, household income, licenses. You had to go out and sort of get access to that information. And sometimes that information wasn't readily available unless you had localized sources to guide you. So it wasn't obvious. Today, uh, it's almost democratized. That information is available to everyone because of the mfta. Not only because of the working groups it does, but also because of the people and sessions mfta.

Speaker B: Sharing ideas, sharing data, sharing information, navigation.

Speaker A: How do you navigate the, the ecosystem? Being in the ecosystem because it's become, has so much depth now. And how do you understand how to make an entry into the ecosystem? If you're looking from the outside in. And I think that's the biggest thing also that the MFT has done to complement the B2C story that Namir was talking about. Is the B2B angle too, the founders getting better?

Speaker B: Let's talk about that. Namir and Gaurav, um, without, you know, we're not going to anyone, but, uh,

Speaker A: I don't think we ever do.

Speaker B: No but we're all parts in Nice. But what do we mean by the founders are getting better?

Speaker A: Like, I have my perspectives, but Namir has his too.

Speaker D: Go for it.

Speaker A: So, I mean, the quality of founders, you know, and again, Nir touched on this is. I think experience has everything to do with that.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker A: Pre2012, 14, 15, when Dubai launched something called the Dubai Futures Accelerator or the Future foundation, which was done out of the Prime Minister's office in Emirates Towers, remember?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Before that, there was. There was very little visibility and education about alternative investing, uh, strategies in the region outside of pe. And also VC was. All the money was going outside the ecosystem. It wasn't going inside, it was going

Speaker B: to the US so.

Speaker A: So they were trying to spark, uh, disruption 2014. Right? They were trying to. They were trying to create a platform to allow people to spark disruption on which you actually got Uber actually was part of the accelerator program, by the way, in the Emirates, uh, Towers program, you know, you had people coming in to try and do things. And it was that experience and knowledge and, uh, encouragement that was done through these programs that allowed people to actually look at business differently. Because otherwise everyone looked at business as, I have to make a profit within six months or eight months or, uh, if I can't do that, there's no business plan. And that's typically not a venture capital disruptive business approach.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker A: And I know that personally from my experience because of how I took my family business from a family business organization to a structured organization that has done an exit and hopefully will do another exit, because, sure, the difference is so big between what happens.

Speaker B: And of course, you've also gave. Seen a lot of these businesses as you've invested in them. Right. Namir, what do we call Gaurav Plus?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: 600 plus investors. Right. So we've seen a lot of these investors.

Speaker C: I would just like to add this, um, like, when it comes to the founder, uh, yeah. So on the founder, quality piece. Right? Evolution, um, as Gaurav mentioned, experience is something that was built in the region, and we learned this region is known to learn fast. And we. I think it's a. It's integrated into our DNA. Right. Or if you are coming into the region, you get this integrated into your DNA once you. The moment you enter, because things are so fast. And of course, you get so much exposure over here. So I believe that, um, the exposure that the founders have received and a lot to do with the, you know, the regulations, of course, that have, you know, matured over here, uh, simultaneously smaller and Bigger initiatives, which includes these accelerators that we have had. We had boom of accelerators as well in our region, right? Um, not anymore.

Speaker A: No. And a waxing and a waning.

Speaker C: Both.

Speaker A: Yeah, both.

Speaker C: We saw many failures as well. Um, sure.

Speaker B: Inevitable.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, we saw many, many failures in the region. And if you pick up the ideas that were there before versus what we have today before, as Gaurav mentioned, you would have me too. Propositions today and meter propositions. Second. We had this mindset back in the days. Only a few had this approach of tweaking.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: Or slightly, you know, making the model in tune or in sync with the region. Very few. And those who did are successful. Those who replicated the models, what we had in the west or in the Far east and do the same thing over here. It never really worked out. Today we have, uh, platforms, like different platforms that are being built, different, um, uh, fintechs that are being, that are emerging, that are fully homegrown in the Middle east or in the uae and they are setting new standards in terms of new products that may not be built somewhere in the west or in the Far east or even in Europe. So innovation was previously, I would say to a certain extent, um, imported, but now innovation is homegrown and also exported out.

Speaker B: Right? Yep. I mean from the UAE to Saudi to other parts of the region, we have companies now that um, friends, members, fellow mfta, uh, leaders have built here in the uae, out of Abu Dhabi and Dubai, that operate in the kingdom, in Saudi Arabia, in Turkey, um, around the world. Should we. Without giving people free pr, should we mention one or two names here, people that um, or companies we look at and go, that's a really good case study built out of the uae.

Speaker A: I mean, do we talk about obvious ones or non obvious ones?

Speaker B: How about, how about one of each? Could you come up with one each? Like one obvious one and one non obvious one.

Speaker A: The most obvious is Tabby, right?

Speaker C: Yeah, Tabby.

Speaker A: Tabby is the most obvious and you know them. Was one of the first investors in them, luckily.

Speaker C: Haven't you heard that story before? I'm surprised. How many podcasts have you done with Gaurav here and you don't know this information?

Speaker A: Hossam was very sweet to let me.

Speaker B: One has to keep repeating, right? Someone said that. I have to keep repeating.

Speaker C: Hang on.

Speaker B: You were an angel investor in Tabby?

Speaker A: Yes, I've exited already.

Speaker B: You've exited?

Speaker A: I've exited already. But, uh, I was one of the first early ones. Yes, yes.

Speaker B: So tell us about the Obvious one. And what was great about this company,

Speaker A: he was obvious because he's one of the only investors at that time that actually had an exit prior to starting his second company. And he was a successful exit the first time. Namshik. Correct.

Speaker B: And he had a partner with a track record as well. Right, the co founder.

Speaker A: Oh, you mean about Tabby? Uh, yeah, yes, of course. His infrastructure team and everything else that's not built here is built back home.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, but effectively you have a founder that's built a company, successfully exited, has understood a data point where he's created those data sets by setting up a new ecosystem himself in the e commerce space, which didn't exist. So he's there at the beginning, scaled it, identified the next set of problems to solve when it was going to scale even further, and monopolized it. And he took inspiration of other things that were already there as data sets. So he knew how to build a business, he knew how to build a team, he knew how to talk to investors, and he knew how to scale it to an exit. So he knew what to avoid to make it even bigger and better than last time. And he doubled down on a sector that he was confident was going to grow. So he had access to data. It was hard not to throw money at him. Um, and because honestly, is nobody else there? It's like, just take my money. Absolutely. Because you have to look at it. How many other people had successful exits

Speaker C: we've got to give credit to Another founder is Mark Chavan.

Speaker B: M.

Speaker C: I've seen Mark during the DIFC Innovation Hive days.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, one corner table I still remember by the window. Him and his team would be there, Jeff Bezos style.

Speaker D: Huh.

Speaker C: And uh, so happy to see how he relentlessly continued with his vision. That's a, uh, marathon runner there when it comes to entrepreneurs.

Speaker A: And you need that, you need that.

Speaker B: What kind of data are we talking about?

Speaker C: You said you see 2018. I remember in the FC seeing Mark in, um, when he was building the initial days of Sera.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: That's a marathon.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Brilliant, brilliant success story. And I think out of all the fintech that I've seen today that I've come have received early success. Mark is a great example of resilience, Perfect example of resilience and how things

Speaker B: are done in the region and Sara worked. Why? What was special about it? Again, to the people who are not

Speaker C: in the region, I think they pivoted. They pivoted, they pivoted their models, they stayed low key for a while. They continued on customer Acquisition.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: I've seen fintechs in the wealth space raising heaps of money.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker C: Same time spending it in the same way. M running out of cash soon.

Speaker D: Mhm. The

Speaker C: I resonate with Mark. Staying low key and building the business.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: Getting shit done.

Speaker C: Yes. And that has been uh, that has been a bit rare in this, in this part of the world. And I don't know Gaurav, if you agree with me on this but I,

Speaker A: I sadly missed out on investing in Sarwa.

Speaker D: Ah.

Speaker A: But no, my busy with work. I thought it was a great business.

Speaker C: Agreeing with the fact that.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And the team was very good.

Speaker C: Agreeing with the fact about staying low key and building the business first.

Speaker A: Oh you got to namir.

Speaker D: You can't.

Speaker A: You can't walk in the walk. But if you really have to execute.

Speaker C: But if you see at the same time absolute M. When the time was right. Today you see them all over the. On different billboards. When the time was right. Perfect example.

Speaker A: Oh I remember speaking of no name companies, I remember there was a company that actually went out and said that me and a friend had invested on them. And uh, when people called me up for reference checks they said how much did you invest? And I said in uh, can you just tell me which company you're talking about? And they go XYZ And I go, I've passed on them. And they go oh really? Because your friend XYZ has put money in it. And I said no they haven't as well because I know it because we just spoke about it last night and it was quite funny and funny you talk about people who are trying to rally this and I saw them do billboards and advertising before they had even a product or service to do and things like that. And I can't see them anywhere anymore.

Speaker B: So those are two obvious ones in air quotes now because we all know about Sarwa and we know about Tabby for good reason. Um, in sort of wealth advisory or um, BNPL kind of. They've been category killers.

Speaker C: I want to add one more thing. Another reason why I call this marathon.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: Is if you look at it, the entire fintech ecosystem.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Different verticals. So we had wealth running at a slow pace, growing at a slow pace.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: You had payments rapidly sprinting. Right. Then you had blockchain that came in late but again sprinted. Wealth's time is now in the past, probably the past couple of years. And now moving forward I see wealth and lending as one of the biggest plays credit is going to.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: The important thing is Resilience and sticking to your business and to your vision as a founder. You got to see that.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: The credit sector is going to be the one that's going to.

Speaker B: So let's maybe about credit or other areas. Let's talk about non obvious.

Speaker C: Non obvious because non obvious Fintechs that made it big.

Speaker A: I mean I've definitely got one too,

Speaker B: or may not have. You know, either they've made it big and people don't talk about them or, or there's one they're under the surface but you think they're going to make it big.

Speaker A: Oh, there's one that's super obvious.

Speaker B: So um. And one that you don't run. Okay.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: I mean one that's super.

Speaker B: One you're not CEO of G. One that's super obvious.

Speaker A: And again I missed out on investing on at. At a pivotal stage was. Is what is now called MTN Hala. MTN Hala, yeah, I mean I remember and the guy, oh my God, I remember, uh, I got a call from a friend in Washington and said oh, uh, and it was just called Hala. Right, obviously.

Speaker D: Sure.

Speaker A: And he goes, you got out of Egypt.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: This person's doing uh, three wheelers, lending everything else, all the rest of it. And I said what, what are you talking about? And he goes no, no, no, they're doing very well. They've scaled a product, the scale service, they've done data, they're not done this. And when I spoke to him it was at the end of a critical restructuring round of financing and I had very little time as an individual, uh, not as a person who had 20 analysts and people behind him, a VC, a team or a PE and he's like, unfortunately I've got this X ticket left, duet or close. And the next time I saw him, didn't hear about him in the press, didn't hear about anything else, forgot about him completely. Uh, he raised at something like a 400 or 500 million dollar valuation and in no time.

Speaker B: And their operations are.

Speaker A: And now he's even bigger than that.

Speaker B: Where are they based? Where are they operating? Egypt. Egypt's core. And do they operate elsewhere or m

Speaker A: believe parts of Africa, but out of Egypt? Egypt has got a bad rap because of, you know, a lot of things. Yeah, people have had bad experiences in Egypt but he's, it's not obvious but uh. And he's gone quiet again. You don't, you don't hear about MD and Hala. But I promise you, I promise you it's not obvious. He's on a mission.

Speaker B: So what makes mtn, Hala or the founders stand out? Like, what's. What's the secret sauce? What's special about them?

Speaker A: Because one part is what he talked about.

Speaker B: You and I have invested in a few Egyptian startups that didn't do so well.

Speaker A: I mean, I acquired a company in Egypt that's still doing very well.

Speaker B: Touchwood.

Speaker D: But.

Speaker A: But it's, uh, what Namir talked about.

Speaker D: Marathon.

Speaker A: Uh, he's in it for the long run. He's sitting out there, he's based out there. He's focused, singular, uh, about the business. He's not doing anything else. And same like, you know what, you look at Hossam, uh, he's stubborn, but in a validated manner.

Speaker D: He's not.

Speaker A: He's not.

Speaker C: That's going to be a good snippet. He's not good.

Speaker B: Can I just. Should we just repeat that? Did Gaurav say air quotes? HSAM is stubborn.

Speaker C: I just heard that.

Speaker B: I just heard that, too.

Speaker A: But validated, Absolutely.

Speaker C: You can say that.

Speaker A: And you know what? He'll probably turn around and go, yeah, so what exactly? What are you guys going to do about it? I got a 3.5 billion plus company. He's like, you know, so absolutely, you got to believe in your.

Speaker B: To make it work. Right?

Speaker A: Because otherwise you have to believe in it. So much conviction is to go from

Speaker B: zero to three billion. It's not going to happen.

Speaker A: And what, six years? Yeah, uh, six years. I think he did. He's done it faster than Korean.

Speaker B: And it's kind of almost like bnpl.

Speaker A: I have to think about the ipo, by the way. And ipo. Sorry, just coming. Just to be clear, to do an ipo, the amount of work you have to do to do an IPO is barbaric. It's not like you just call up Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley or JP Morgan or whatever and just say, hey, I'm doing an ipo. Roll in your team, take a fee and do it. There is so much work, uh, to do, and for him to do it the way he's done it. Yeah, you have to have convictionpl.

Speaker B: BNPL is one of those areas. Um, so tab is obviously a BNPL play. Um, BNP is one of those areas where it started, um, in Australia or in Sweden.

Speaker C: Australia, from what I remember. Zipper was one of the first ones.

Speaker B: Right. There are a few. There were several of these Australian ones. Yeah. Quite a lot back in Australia. I kind of fizzled out, in fact spectacularly in some of the listed companies. Um, you Know they've lost nearly all their value. Um, and then the ones in Europe and the U.S. um, which are bigger now but still controversial here in the region. It seems to have like hit a nerve, like in a positive way. As in there's a demand for credit in Saudi. Saudi didn't have much. UAE has. Dubai has a lot of consumer credit. Saudi didn't have credit cards.

Speaker C: Still.

Speaker A: Still.

Speaker B: There's still a big gap.

Speaker C: Massive gap. Massive in UAE as well.

Speaker B: I thought there was too much credit for consumers in the uae. Everyone's in Dubai.

Speaker C: Consumer. So consumer. So you're looking at contextual. We're looking at from the retail perspective here.

Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker C: The biggest contributor to any economy, especially the regional economy. That's in me.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: SME lending.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: SME banks are the next unicorns.

Speaker B: So who's doing interesting things there?

Speaker C: I mean, I know of course an obvious1. Um, Abhi has been doing credible X is another X is there.

Speaker A: E funder is another one.

Speaker C: And we've been discussing something as well.

Speaker B: More free PR to Abby. We've had Omer, uh, on a few times. No, no.

Speaker A: Ah, he acquired a bank. He's okay. We don't need to give him pr.

Speaker B: I need to give him more pr.

Speaker A: I love you bro. But enough. Yeah. And then, and then in Saudi Arabia,

Speaker B: another quotable, uh, quote from Garo there. Omar, I love you bro. This is gonna, this is, this episode's gonna be cooking.

Speaker A: And then Saudi Arabia, Right. Uh, the lend for SMEs that just raised 650 or 607. $675 million just now recently really lend. So lend AIO.

Speaker C: If you hear my, my, some of my interviews. Huh. As well.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: I've got categorically mentioned that lending.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: And SME, uh, is going to be the next area where you will see unicorn.

Speaker A: It's exactly the same. Yeah.

Speaker B: And we're going to uh, we're going

Speaker C: to do massive opportunity. Why tell me you m. Pick up

Speaker B: any lending you're talking about.

Speaker C: You pick up any market. So you got to pick up the trends. That's what we do.

Speaker B: Right?

Speaker C: Trend rating and trend analysis in different parts of the world. Uh, what has happened in Europe, what has happened in Far east, what has happened in North America. Pick up any market. Pick up any market.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: And from those markets you would see it starts from retail. These are all the reports that we have seen as well. You know, the consultant friends and the reports. Um, it would start with retail banking would get disrupted, unboxed. And then after that after retail, we look at corporate banking. We had the lights. We have the, the rising banks like Veo, Almaria, Ruya and many other ones that are coming again. The focus on trans. They started with transactions and we. And then what happened?

Speaker B: Success. Right.

Speaker C: And then what happened after that? Lending.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's always lending.

Speaker C: Uh, and lending is a. Is the area where you make significant amount of real revenue. You don't just burn cash, you make revenue.

Speaker A: There's a monopoly on. There was a monopoly on data prior. That monopoly doesn't exist anymore on it. And I think just going back to bnpl, BNPL worked here so well. And by the way, there was BNPL products that were offered by banks prior M. It was called, uh, you know, EPP Electronic payment. Electronic payment program.

Speaker D: Okay.

Speaker A: So you could go into a shop.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You could buy something from Emacs or Shiraf DG or one of the retailers. And you could at the time of saying, can I defer my payment for three months without interest, please? And you know, you could actually do it off your phone as well. You could actually retroactively with Emirates and BD and their first product, their first digital bank called Live. Uh, you could retroactively go into your cards and say, you know what, I actually, I don't want to pay for this now. Yeah, I want to pay for it in four months at 0% interest. So these products were out. The reason it worked with Hossam is because he did a double sided market service. He looked after the consumer and married it to the merchant. So what he did was, is he created that ecosystem for them to meet.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: To understand who wanted what what. They were willing to pay for it outside of a normal purchase. But the banks were offering the product, but they were not offering the service. And that is where a lot of Tabby's revenues. Uh, I actually can't tell you about that. Sorry. But uh, because I might be, I might be stepping. But there's other revenue streams in Tabby. Just from what you're seeing as a one dimensional obvious buy now I pick your point.

Speaker C: Revenue. Revenue. Revenue is something that is quite overlooked when we are building Burn is something we give more attention to. And uh, we have heard this conversation many times with the VCs. Oh, what are you burning? The conversation of revenue came up maybe last year.

Speaker A: Covid.

Speaker C: Yeah, that. Okay, let's focus more on revenue. That was the conversation.

Speaker A: And then profitability.

Speaker C: And then profitability came.

Speaker A: Profitability suddenly came back into the room.

Speaker C: But are fintechs still achieving it? And one, two, if they are not yet achieving it. Still, the question remains, do they understand the road to profitability?

Speaker A: Well, I can tell you that it's, uh, there's, there's a hangover from the previous sets of investments and then obviously there's a, uh, non starter program that's being done by VCS with new funds on exactly this. So any new funds that have come up are uh, basically saying, are you built for profitability and revenue as opposed to just.

Speaker C: And I've seen a change of interest when it's just not on B2C. Now it's more focused on B2B because where the, that's where the real money is as well, right? Not, uh, just B2C. B2C is the acquisition. Expensive is expensive. Uh, you're too exposed as a platform. Whereas B2B is where we have realized, at least from my experience, what I've seen with different fintechs, they realize that B2B is the way to go. B2B2C is a way to go.

Speaker A: Yeah, it is. Uh, B2B2C is definitely the way to go.

Speaker B: Any final names you want to throw out in terms of fintechs that not obvious, flying under the radar. Uh, you want to call out?

Speaker C: Are we talking about fintechs born in the region?

Speaker B: Born in the region, or have moved to the region when young? Are you not something coming out of Singapore or India? Actually, the founder is living here.

Speaker A: You're trending a fine line here now because if I start mentioning names and I don't mention other names, I'm going to get into some serious.

Speaker C: You've already mentioned two, four names.

Speaker B: You've already already called one of the region's best founders. Stubborn.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: And one of our friends we've called out as not needing more pr, so that's true. Uh, we're on a roll here, Gyro, I think.

Speaker A: So, like, this is the troublemakers.

Speaker B: Well, this is the end of season podcast, isn't it? It literally is the end of season. Before we go back, before we fly

Speaker C: out from Dubai, all three of us are flying.

Speaker B: We're all flying out the next couple of days.

Speaker C: Where are you going?

Speaker B: Um, by the time this episode, this podcast is out, we'll be out.

Speaker C: I'll be in.

Speaker B: I'll either be probably in somewhere in the Austrian Alps or, um, I'll be there maybe in the Baltics. Somewhere fresh.

Speaker D: Fresh air.

Speaker B: Somewhere in fresh air.

Speaker C: All right, let's get back.

Speaker B: So let's get back on track. So let's. Down from the mountains, bound from the Mountains. Uh, uh, you know, sound of. Sound of fintech.

Speaker A: Who else? Fintech perspective.

Speaker B: Who else should we give up? Uh, give, you know, give a shout out to as uh, these guys are doing really interesting work.

Speaker A: So many good people doing good, uh, things. I mean, it's tough to just pick.

Speaker B: Pick one of your kids. Namir. Choose one of your children.

Speaker C: I think when it comes to

Speaker D: a

Speaker C: second time founder friend M. Who's done really well.

Speaker A: Pluto. He is resilient.

Speaker C: He is. I love him. Resilient guy. Okay. I love you, bro. Aziz, you're doing a fantastic job.

Speaker B: What's so good about Pluto?

Speaker C: I think first anymore, is it.

Speaker B: No, no, it's been kicked.

Speaker A: Forget about Pluto for Pluto.

Speaker C: Forget about Pluto for a moment.

Speaker A: Just him.

Speaker C: Aziz, a founder quality.

Speaker B: Yeah. Tell us about Aziz.

Speaker C: He's gone through a lot.

Speaker B: Who he.

Speaker C: Aziz.

Speaker D: Aziz.

Speaker C: Aziz Muhammad Aziz. He has gone through a lot.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker C: You all have known what he has gone through. And uh, if I have a reason, I mean, if many people say that I, you know, vouch for Aziz a lot.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: He's gone through a lot. That's why.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: I mean, he has the guts, uh, to go out and do things that many would have not done today. Open finance has many things we have done today. It's a big claimer.

Speaker A: It's a big claim.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: But open finance, he had at that time spoken on behalf of the industry on levels which had costed him. Yep.

Speaker A: And by the way, ah, the only people from abroad.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: Recognized him as the only open finance, open air authority.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: In the Middle east region. So people from Plaid and other people connected with him on a personal basis.

Speaker C: So by the way.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: The thing is, what's really fascinating about this young man is, uh, the energy and how fast he thinks he pivots. Quite fast.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: That's what I like about him. I remember when he was building Pluto Move fast. He built. He moved really fast.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Right. And I love his energy. He. I genuinely learned from this boy as well because, uh, he's always willing to teach you. So I think the. When I say founder quality has improved, it is successes.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: And exposure.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: And resilience. So if you're a founder. I'm a founder myself as well. Right. And I have my way of operating. Right. And every founder has its own way of operating.

Speaker B: You're a multi founder. Right. I mean, effectively founded an fta. Founded Philz. Why am I being nice to him?

Speaker A: I have absolutely no idea.

Speaker B: Should we go back to being mean?

Speaker D: Yes, please.

Speaker B: Yeah, let's Please do that.

Speaker C: The, the founder quality that is really important.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: Maybe in the west as well, maybe in the Far east, but here in the region, what we were discussing.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, founder quality is that you need to have that steel of spine. You know, you got to be able

Speaker B: to do that steel of spine. And a, uh, spine of steel.

Speaker A: A spine of steel is also.

Speaker C: Yeah, correct.

Speaker A: There you go. That would work.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: Steel or spine, I'm not sure, but spine of steel.

Speaker C: You got it right.

Speaker B: Yeah, spine of steel.

Speaker A: There you go.

Speaker C: And then second is, uh, you know, you got to have that strong, um, grit.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: And that's what this gentleman, uh, has. And I think all these founders who are operating here in the market, they need to have that. It's critical, even I need to have it, otherwise I would not be able to sustain myself.

Speaker B: So.

Speaker A: So I think there's only one, one other founder that comes to mind that's actually worth mentioning in this sort of category is a company I don't think many people have heard about.

Speaker D: Okay.

Speaker B: Gone.

Speaker A: But a woman founder based in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has actually gone and built a global business quietly.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker A: And her customers range from people like Coca Cola to ah, some of the biggest telcos in the world. And it's a company called Merit.

Speaker D: Okay.

Speaker A: And I discovered Merit through my network and a few good friends.

Speaker B: What does Merit do?

Speaker A: Merit is an enterprise level loyalty platform. M. And normally is this. Yes, normally loyalty platforms are boring and they're not very successful because loyalty as an ecosystem gets commoditized and the disruption is met with nothing. After a point in time, uh, you can easily replicate. The differentiators are, uh, hollow unfortunately, because.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker A: The industry value set is very different. Um, but what she has managed to do, sitting out of the kingdom and growing a global business quietly was shocking. When I actually had a conversation with her, went through the deck and uncovered what she had actually built and how she built it, I was dumbfounded. And it's amazing. She did this in stealth and almost quietly.

Speaker C: I remember, I remember meeting her in M. 2020, I believe.

Speaker A: Impressive. Impressive founder.

Speaker C: It's been eight years.

Speaker A: No, no, no, no, no. Much, much, much, much, much, much more recent. No, it's only been three, four years. Marriage is only three. Three years old.

Speaker D: Yes, yes.

Speaker B: Yeah, you met 2020. It's 2025 right now.

Speaker A: Yeah. 2022.

Speaker B: Maybe you met her only three years after Covid. Uh, yeah. Saudi would have reopened after Covid.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker B: So let's, let's pull on that thread of, um, companies from the region that have expanded outside the region. Are there many? And also use that as a theme with mfta. You correct. Gone from Abu Dhabi adgm, DIFC to now just opening or announcing the opening of the Saudi chapters. Love to hear more about that. Obviously got, um, money. 2020 Saudi coming up.

Speaker C: So looking forward to being there.

Speaker B: Saudi chapters opened and then Turkey. Yeah, we were um, Some of us were in um, Fintech week in Istanbul the other day. And you've just opened the MFTA Turkey chapter. Bahrain, Qatar. What else?

Speaker A: Ones in Africa as well.

Speaker C: Morocco.

Speaker B: Morocco, Egypt. What do we miss?

Speaker A: So many.

Speaker C: Yeah. So you see, the M. MENA region is. It's not just uh, the mena region. It's 22 markets. And the vision has always been how you create an interconnected and an innovative ecosystem.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: Since. And this is, this is a vision. M. Since the inception of the uh, MENA Fintech association. When the association was being launched. On the day when the association was Launched, we had 22 central banks in the room. M. Gaurav was there as well, and many of her friends. And it did not stop there. And the regulators, the policymakers, everyone is focusing on one thing. And it's not easy to bring all these 22 markets together. And we have to play our role. We have to play our part. So the first thing was that association needs to be that neutral platform. Think global, build local. That's our DNA.

Speaker D: Yep.

Speaker C: If we are enabling. The first is uae. We kicked off. Then we had our presence in different parts of the world. Africa. Mena fintech Africa is covering Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria and Egypt.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: Run by locals.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: So the reason why we focus on these different chapters being run by the locals is because it's their ecosystem. They know it better than us. We provide them with the platform to amplify the market, the market opportunity. But it's their ecosystem. That's the approach that we follow.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: Then we, uh, saw great interest from Bahrain. We had leaders, local leaders. Suzy Azira, um, Tariq Matar.

Speaker D: Mhm. Mhm.

Speaker C: Both running the Bahrain fintech Bay ecosystem. Coming up. Listen, we need to be a part of the MENA Fintech association and build up the MFT Bahrain. They did fantastic. Again, locals who understand the local dynamics better than any one of us.

Speaker B: Sure.

Speaker C: It's not about just us and you all know that. It's about everyone else in the ecosystem.

Speaker A: That's the way it should be.

Speaker C: The way you have the leadership. What is leadership? Organizational leadership. Individual leadership. It's not about individual spotlight. It's not about me. It's not about you. It's not about you. It's about how we all, with what we have done today, you know, create light and, you know, show the light for others on the path where they can actually grow as well.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: That's real leadership.

Speaker A: I'll give you one example of this. You remember your opening AI forums that we first started as the workshops where we had, uh, our good friend from MasterCard who was, uh, sitting out of Switzerland, I think the journey.

Speaker C: Hakan.

Speaker A: And I remember Hakan, who's now with bis.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker A: He used to sit there.

Speaker B: Finance, you mean?

Speaker A: Yes, Open Finance. Sorry, Open Finance for OpenAI.

Speaker B: What? OpenAI events.

Speaker D: Are you there?

Speaker B: He didn't invite me to Gaara.

Speaker A: I'm trying to find his name. Sorry. Hakan was amazing in bringing.

Speaker B: He got open API and OpenAI.

Speaker C: Yes, that's right.

Speaker A: It was a good meeting of mine from API.

Speaker C: The way I had seat of spine.

Speaker B: It's a good thing.

Speaker A: Remember we brought international regulation.

Speaker D: Uh.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: On what was happening in the UK. Yeah. MasterCard, uh, doing things in Australia.

Speaker D: Correct.

Speaker A: And using it as guidance for how dappy, lean.

Speaker C: Correct.

Speaker A: All these other people who are looking to really move into this space.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: How to navigate it, what the legalities are, what should be done as a phase one, who is sharing information, the context of how it should be built. But what benefits both parties can have rather than trying to understand disruption for the sake of disruption.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: And that was because of the workshops and working groups that we had started.

Speaker C: No, we were quite lucky to have good leaders. So, um, as you know, mentioned by you, Gaurav, thanks for highlighting it. Um, the idea has always been that get the best talent from all over the world, the best minds, the best experts in the space to drive those conversations. And, um, again, you know, coming back to the point where we had these different countries, like in Qatar we have Gauravar of Sachdeva, in, um, Iraq we have Baha, you know, chairman for, For Keycard, uh, you know, very well connected individual. Having locals who understand the ecosystem, drive the ecosystem and mfta, helping amplify the market opportunity, um, globally is our approach that we're doing. And while we did this, so you're looking at country expansions over here within the regions, within the countries and local people driving it. Second, once this is done, we have the global expansion where we have leaders from all over the world who are a part of the MENA Fintech Association. So it's becoming a, uh, bigger and bigger and snowballing into A much bigger network, all organically.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: The reason why is two all eyes on the region. Second, when it's all eyes in the region, there are two things that are happening. First is incoming. We have more founders, more tech companies looking to take advantage of the economic opportunity in this region. Today I call this region a gold mine. Since the past eight years, all my interviews. Gold mine, Gold mine. Gold mine. And we just again, I would say scratching the surface.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: And it's only been, you know, it's been proven. Right. Only second, now we have reached that point where the majority of the tech companies within or the innovation within has become so good. Now we're looking at exporting it. I know one of our friends from nearby, Muhammad Aliban, expanding into us. Right. I have personally, I'm on the board of a few fintechs. They've expanded into Europe lately. Payment companies headquartered here in uae expanding into Europe. So now we see this trend happening with this. The association enjoys great diplomatic relationships.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: We have been working very closely with the Ministry of uh. Or different ministries in uae.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: And um, all. All respect to His Excellence, His Excellency Dr. Thani Al Zayudi, Minister of Foreign, uh, Direct Investment and Trade, who's been exceptionally supportive of how the association has been operating. M. And this basically helps us play a very significant role when it comes to enabling bilateral relationships outside the region. That's why we have these different global leaders which we will be announcing very soon all over the world becoming a

Speaker A: part of that network.

Speaker C: But all organically.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: That's very important to remember. All organically.

Speaker B: Almost come to the end of the podcast. Time has flown. You won't believe what the time is.

Speaker A: We could sit and keep talking fintech all night long.

Speaker B: I thought we just started. But the time has flown. So what's next? What's next for fintech in the region? Either in the UAE or mena. You had to give us one forecast, one prediction and mena fintech Association. I mean what role will it play? We're everywhere, right? What can, uh, where can we go now? I mean like, is there Pluto, Mars, Space Force?

Speaker C: I was uh, having the same conversation with one of the initial foundation setters for the association back in the days. He was the CEO of adgm, Richard Tang, who is now the CEO of Binance.

Speaker B: Richard Tango.

Speaker C: Yeah. Who's been uh. So actually the, the idea, the ideation of the association started with uh, Richard, um, me and Vailom, who's still in edgy. That's how it Started. And um, I still remember meeting both of them. We met in the Edgmi. I remember I took a bus. Ah. For. And you know, I took a normal bus for like, you know, the RTA bus. Took me like three hours to, to reach there. Um, we sat down and um, I was just amazed to see their intent at that time. That we need to build this ecosystem. How do we do it? We pulled out a piece of paper just like this, literally scribbled on what the ecosystem should look like. And uh, that's how it all literally started. If both of these two gentlemen would listen to it, they would smile at it. And they would be like, this guy does not forget it. I've spoken about this on different TV channels everywhere.

Speaker B: Right here on an RTA bus. He's taking that still. No, no, he doesn't.

Speaker C: Uh, I would love to, by the

Speaker B: way, but no comment.

Speaker C: No, I would love to. I'm so proud of that.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: Um, so happy. This makes me, my character and who I am today. Whenever I'm going to Abu Dhabi, I still remember it. Whenever I see an RTA bus, I'm like, okay, brilliant. Good old days, training days. Resilience.

Speaker B: Got to start from the.

Speaker C: I mean, I'm going to share my story. In that case. Yeah, yeah, it's important. In that case, it's important.

Speaker B: Final word. Uh, final word. Uh, to Namir Khan and his origin story, I think.

Speaker C: Uh, I mean, when I started here in the region.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: When I came to Dubai, I literally started from scratch. And when I say scratch, it is literal. Scratch.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: Um, I wasn't living in a room.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: Today those, uh, rooms are banned today with 14 people. Yes, 14 people in one room. Um, sharing your silence and, um, having a budget of 20 dirhams a day.

Speaker D: Right.

Speaker C: That was, um, difficult.

Speaker B: I can imagine.

Speaker C: But um, the important thing is if you know the vision of what you're building and you're focused towards it, and this is what I still have today, you continue to go towards it. One thing that I faced when I was building the association was doubt, skepticism. Whoever I spoke to, ah, uh, this guy who knows. No one in their country, no one in the region is going to build this association. Right. Uh, and I was told no by almost everyone. I had meetings. I used to fly into Dubai. I flew into Dubai for a meeting on the day to find out the meeting has been canceled. M Right. It takes a lot of blood and sweat and commitment to build something of this magnitude. And it requires commitment. Did that. But skepticism and doubt today Fuels me. It is my fuel. I'm like, you want to doubt me, Please do that. It's, you know, it's just going to fuel my growth more and more. Fast forward.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: We all are here today.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: Right. So the association follows the same DNA and the amount of love and care you have to put in something you really care about. For me, MFT is not an organization.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: Not an organization. I was thinking about it last night.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: It's not an organization for me anymore.

Speaker D: It's a family.

Speaker C: And when it's, when something is like your family, you invest your time, your effort, you care about it.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: Uh, that's what I've done and that's what we all do together.

Speaker B: So now we know what Namir Khan does at 2:00am um, so lies awake thinking about you

Speaker C: See so that was the, the, that has been the DNA of the association for all of us who are contributing towards it today. Yeah, but it's not about us today.

Speaker D: Sure.

Speaker C: None of us. Right, Correct. The association today, when you asked what's next.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: Yes. We will talk about the buzzy St. We talk about the programmable money and the focus towards that. What's next is association further enabling more leaders.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: Paving the path with light for other upcoming stars, individuals, youngsters who need that guiding light. That is a role that we will play. Why now? We have discussed artificial intelligence numerous times in depth with you, the expert in that, right?

Speaker B: Oh, it's more Abdul Ali.

Speaker C: And uh, we have spoken about talent so much. We have spoken about and we all are cautious what's going to happen about the talent in the next couple of years. We all are cautious about it. Important for all of us in the association is to spend more time educating, building uh, you know, a path for these youngsters to be able to learn, adapt, pivot quick so that they have a sustainable future ahead of them.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: We have to enable leaders. It's our responsibility. And leaders could be any age. A ah, leader doesn't have to be, you know, 30 year old or 40 year old guy or a woman. Right. It doesn't have to be. It can be any youngster starting from the ages of 17, 16. Right. We got to give them early access, engage them. So the association will be focusing a lot more on the academic side.

Speaker D: Mhm.

Speaker C: Academic is a very strong focus. Then we have certain streams we're looking at AI, we're looking at blockchain, we're looking at sustainability. These are those core pillars, um, that will enable further, I mean These are the three things. AI, blockchain, um, and sustainability. These are three things that will impact every single sector and, of course, financial services. So for us, this is going to be a strong area of focus. And luckily, we have you in, uh, most of them.

Speaker B: Abs. Yeah. On that note, Gaurav, we should probably bring this to a close.

Speaker A: I think we should.

Speaker B: Finally.

Speaker C: I like the ABS word, by the way.

Speaker B: Final episode on the finale season. Finale. So you dove. Drove into. Dived into fintech in the region.

Speaker A: Past, present, Building blocks of fintech in the region. Past, present, and future.

Speaker B: Thank you so much for joining us.

Speaker C: Thank you for having me. It was a great conversation and, uh, such a candid one. So I enjoy it.

Speaker B: Until. Until the next season.

Speaker C: Thank you.

Speaker D: Yes.