Curiosity vs Expertise Why Leaders Are Generalists with Xenia Wickett Founder of Wickett Advisory

Speaker A: The two characteristics of mine that I think have got me to where I am aren't South Asia expertise, aren't ability to communicate or to analyze. It is curiosity and determination. It's as simple as that. I think if you're curious, you explore, you consider, you reach out to new sources of information and knowledge and understanding, right? And if you're determined, you just keep going until you succeed. I think those two are really, really key in terms of kind of innate characteristics or advice I would give to people. It is to the extent you can cultivate a curious mindset and don't give up.

Speaker B: Welcome to from the Top with Chad Hesters, the podcast for CEOs, founders and decision makers looking for a straightforward perspective on issues facing global leaders. No fluff, no jargon, just real conversations with people who've made tough calls and are here to share what they've learned. Here's our host, Chad Hesters. Hello, everyone. Welcome to from the Top. I'm your host, Chad Hesters. I'm really excited about today's guest. I've been working for a while here to get her on our schedule. We're joined today by Zinnia Wickett, who has an incredible background, an incredible journey, and spends a lot of her time around leadership all around the planet in both government, business and otherwise. So I think we're going to have a really great conversation today. Yeah, I'm sorry, Zinnia, I've got really high expectations for this, but welcome to the podcast.

Speaker A: It is great to be here. I'm, um, really looking forward to this conversation.

Speaker B: Well, thanks. So your parents were born in South Africa and Hungary, but you're British and American by nationality, and you did your undergrad at Oxford and, and then you did your master's at, uh, the Harvard Kennedy School in Public Policy. So you come out of Harvard out of the Kennedy School, and you go into several roles with the US Government, first with the State Department as a Foreign affairs officer, but before that you serve as a special Advisor to the Coordinator of Homeland Security in the White house right after 9 11, helping set up the Office, uh, of Homeland Security, which for our listeners who may not know, like, it didn't exist in September, October 2001. That all had to get stood up pretty quickly. So then you do that for a while and you're in the Bureau of South Asian affairs and Non Proliferation, probably had a lot to do with India, Pakistan, Kashmir, I suspect a very interesting part of the world. And I suspect that led to your stop at the National Security Council there at the White House working on policy in South Asia, which man, there's a lot going on there. And so that feels like a chunkier career right out of graduate school. And then you went back to Harvard, is an executive director at the Belfer center there, running the project on India and the subcontinent, spending some time there. And then our executive director of the Peace Nexus foundation which you founded as I recall, providing support to clients, governments, NGOs, international bodies, really looking at complex conflict related problems. And from there you did some additional advisory work at Gatehouse Advisory Partners. Now was that your own firm or was Gatehouse.

Speaker A: Nope, it was a uh, firm started up by a couple of British diplomats. One of whom was I think the ambassador to the US at one point and another who was the British ambassador to the un.

Speaker B: All right, well, so they knew what they were talking about.

Speaker A: They did.

Speaker B: So six years there and then to the famous Chatham House as head of US and America's program. And also you were the dean of their Academy for Leadership in International affairs and that's a very well known program. Until our conversation here a few weeks ago, I didn't know that you had done that role. That's pretty interesting for sure there for seven years. And then over to Equinor. For people who may not know, Equinor is one of the largest integrated energy companies in the planet and is quite well known for being progressive in its thinking about energy. And for the past four years you've been running your own shop at Wicked Advisory, which I mentioned earlier, primarily three solutions if I remember correctly. You've got executive coaching, geopolitical speaking and advisory, and then a, uh, chair and moderation services many times around the geopolitical space. Well, great. Well I think the reason I wanted to run through that is because uh, one, I just personally think it's fascinating, but boy, that's a heck of a career and you're nowhere near being done. I feel like you and I are about the same vintage and I feel like I'm halfway there. So here's a question then, for somebody who's accomplished as much as you have and has done so much interesting work, was that part of a plan? Like have you been executing the plan since you got out of undergrad or. Help me describe this path.

Speaker A: So I was talking to somebody earlier today and I reminded them that Napoleon said, I don't want good generals, I want lucky generals. And I am a lucky general of my own life. So it's been a very unintentional career. I never knew what I wanted to do when I grew up, I still don't. I'm early 50s and I still don't know what I want to do when I grow up. I have been fortunate enough to work pretty hard and meet some really interesting people along the way. And every now and then somebody says, hey Zania, do you wanna come m help us do this? And I've said yes. And I've got another really interesting opportunity. So it's been very unintentional. It continues to be very unintentional, including starting my own business. Never intended to do that. I suddenly found myself doing it and actually realized that this was the next gig. And I love what I do.

Speaker B: That's clear. I think there's probably some themes in your career. There's some things along the way. Well, let me first ask, before I ask that question, do you hold the view that everybody's got sort of an innate set of skills or competencies that we have that are innate and kind of is ever present? And if so, what is it you've learned along the way about yourself that's allowed you to be successful in your career? I mean, what are the things? Like what's the, what are the threads running through your career today?

Speaker A: So I do think that everybody has innate skills or proclivities, if you will. Preferences, maybe is a better way of putting it. I also believe we can learn an awful lot. So one of the things I think quite a lot about and my clients think quite a lot about is, for example, the distinction between being a generalist or a specialist. The reality is in this world we need both generalists and specialists. I've chosen to be a generalist and. Or generalists have chosen to be my life. I've learned all sorts of things along the way. It makes me valuable to my clients. The fact that I can move from a macro conversation on context and environment and geopolitics to a micro conversation about how as a leader you need to manage through that context. And what does my experience bring to that conversation makes me valuable to my clients? It's precisely because I'm a generalist rather than a specialist. But I work with lots of people who, particularly in the middle of their careers, kind of have the view that if they don't specialize, they won't get ahead. And I would say actually in the context in which we're now operating in this hugely complex environment, yes, we need specialists. But it's the generalists, it's the broad based people, it's the people who can translate from one sector to another. The People who can see have enough of a perspective that they can comprehend the fact that something happening in Brazil has the potential to impact something happening in Turkey. One sector has the ability to impact something happening in a completely different sector in a completely different part of the world. It's that broad perspective that actually makes us valuable, that makes us in today's context, even more important, just because of the resonance of so many of these issues that are compounding one another. Does that make sense? I mean, I think one of the threads, if you will, you ask for threads, is the fact that because I've worked in so many different places, so many different sectors, so many different geographies, that's what makes me useful.

Speaker B: So I think that's a really interesting concept I like to dig down a little bit on. We live in a world where I think people, especially early career people coming out of university or their master's program or in their 20s, I think the world tells them that they need to be specialists in something in order to, uh, secure employment or to move up in a company, whether it's functional or it's an industry specialty or something. And I don't know if I necessarily disagree with that. When your early career you got to establish, I mean you came out of Kennedy School and developed a bit of an expertise in working around risk and thinking about the political and geopolitical world. And then you developed a bit of, especially in South Asia. And I think a lot of people have that path, but you were able to mature that into a generalist approach. So what's your advice and counsel to those mid career people who have been, they've been doing what they're supposed to do, right? They develop an expertise and they've been valuable in a company and creating value for the teams they're on. And they're starting to get into leadership roles now and they hear your advice on being a generalist. So I'm trying to get our listeners some free coaching here. Okay, or we could send me the bill later. But how does somebody mid career develop more of a generalist mindset? I mean, how do they learn to learn? How do they learn to have a broader perspective? What would you say to that person?

Speaker A: So let me give you two answers to that. The first is the two characteristics of mine that I think have got me to where I am aren't South Asia expertise aren't ability to communicate or to analyze. It is curiosity and determination. It's as simple as that. I think if you're curious, you explore, you consider, you reach out to new sources of information and knowledge and understanding. Right. And if you're determined, you just keep going until you succeed. I think those two are really, really key. So in terms of kind of innate characteristics or advice I would give to people, it is to the extent you cultivate a curious mindset and don't give up. The other kind of way of thinking about your question is there was a study, I think it was done by McKinsey, that came out earlier this year that said something to the effect of our expectations for our CEOs is that they can now handle twice what they could a decade ago. And that's geopolitics, that's AI, that's technology, that's compliance, that's all of these issue areas that perhaps we didn't expect of them to the degree that we do now. So that is for CEOs today, they're expected to handle twice the number of issues that they did a decade ago. Well, if our expectations are that of our CEOs, being narrow isn't going to cut it. Now, that's not to say that you aren't going to bring a narrow area of expertise to some of your jobs. But if you want to get to the top echelons of your organization, be it an ngo, the corporate sector, or government, you are going to need to be able to at least understand, communicate on a whole range of issues that maybe weren't your training. So I'm not suggesting you don't go deep. I'm just saying, actually, to lead in today's world, you also have to go broad. And I think that's absolutely key to the leaders of not just today's generation, but certainly tomorrow's generation.

Speaker B: I couldn't concur more. And, uh, I saw that study you were talking about. And in our firm and our line of work, I have the fortunate opportunity to spend a lot of time with CEOs and leaders and board members who are clients and all around the world. And this concept that there's more on the CEO, on a board and senior leaders, C suite leaders, plates, now I hear it everywhere. And even if it's not, people won't admit it, but it's a real and present phenomenon now. So it sort of begs the question then, if a CEO is sitting there with a lot on their plate and they got to get smart on geopolitical or macroeconomic issues, that maybe wasn't part of their academic career or wasn't part of their business career, maybe it was a coo, uh, for example, who's been now been promoted to a CEO role where they've been worried about tactical and operational matters, and now they have to think about strategy and external stakeholders and these sorts of things. What does somebody need to do to. Or what are some tips that people can do if you're in that role, to understand the world around us and the interconnectedness? Is it a combination of getting some formal education? Is it using advisory services such as yours? Is it reading a lot? I mean, how do you get smart if you're just kind of showing up to that leadership role and need some context?

Speaker A: So the easy answer is you surround yourself with smart people. Actually, I was talking to a, uh, startup CEO just before this conversation, and, um, we were talking exactly about this. I had the opportunity to work for President Bush Jr. And was he the smartest person in the room? Probably not. But he was smart enough to know that he needed to surround himself with really, really smart people. So whether you agree with his policy or not, he did surround himself with very, very smart people and he didn't let his ego get in the way of that. Now, uh, the best leaders are the ones who will do that, who will say, I cannot know everything, who will have. The CEO of the Wellcome Trust, which is a big British kind of science foundation, once said to me, and, um, they try and bring physicists together with chemists together with biologists. They try and work in the nexus of the sciences. And I asked him, what makes somebody who's really good in that nexus? And he said, confidence and humility. Confidence in the stuff, you know, humility in the stuff that you don't. And so it's this. What is it that leaders of today, they need to surround themselves with really, really smart people who have expertise in areas that they don't. They need to build their network so that they can actually broaden the access to people who have knowledge. It is without the expectation that they're going to hold it all themselves. They have to have humility. They have to be vulnerable to accept the fact that they aren't going to know everything, but they know who to pick up the phone to, that they're willing to take in diverse opinions. So the expectation can't be that you are an expert at everything because it's just not credible. But it is about building the network, building the self, understanding the self, knowledge to know your gaps and building the network to surround yourself with the smart people who can fill those gaps.

Speaker B: I think that's a good word, Zenith. I think that's great advice. In almost Any circumstance or company or situation you might be in is have some humility to know you're not. You don't know everything. I think for a lot of leaders that's a maturation process. I think a lot of people find themselves in progressive management roles and the difference between management and leadership is huge. But it's not always talked about that in the classic corporate progression. And the emotional humility to be able to check yourself at the door and say, okay, there might be questions I don't even know to ask. That's powerful. So here's a question in there for you. You're a whisperer to leaders and you hear a lot from people and you spend a lot of time in rooms with people that have to make hard decisions. You named a couple of criteria there. Is there anything else you'd add to the list that would be a competency, a skill set or an ability that successful leaders today, regardless of the environment they're in, what's the list they have to have to be successful?

Speaker A: It depends who you talk to. So I'm not a believer of there's more books written on leadership, on what you need to be a good leader than certainly I can count. Um, there are certain skills that without question are going to be valuable. Are you an effective communicator? Can you develop strategy? Can you bring people together behind you? And there's certainly skills that everybody should have. But when I launched the Academy for Leadership at ah, Chatham House, I spent the first three or four months just talking to a whole load of people in the military, in the NGO sector, in academia, in the corporate sector, saying, well, what is leadership? What do people. If you know, if we are training global leaders from around the world, what is it that we need to do with them? What is it that we need to help them develop? And the curriculum that I came up with was a very simple one, which was there are elements of skills, knowledge, network and self awareness. So start with the last one, self awareness. Know your strengths. Know your weaknesses. There's a lot of people who say you should double down on your strengths or you should fill in the gaps of your weaknesses. There isn't an answer. Everybody will have their own approach, but know them. Know your biases, know your gaps. Network. I've talked about that already. You can't be the expert for everything, so pull people in who are. So if you're the CEO of a company, I will say to people all the time, you don't need to build a geopolitical think tank in your organization because there's enormous expertise out in the public. You know, lots and lots of, whether it's geopolitical risk advisory companies or it's companies led by your colleague who you've already done a podcast with. Dee, you've got lots of people who've got this expertise. You need to figure out how to bring that into the institution at all levels, iterate it, make it relevant. So that's the network. Make sure that you know who to call when there's a problem. Skills. Are you born with skills or do you develop them? The answer is a bit of both. But yes, everybody needs to be an effective communicator. They need to know how to lead, to do strategy, to communicate, to get buy in all of these things. And then knowledge. Does it help to have an area of deep knowledge? Yes, again, most CEOs will. I, uh, work with a lot of entrepreneurs. They'll start up with a deep area of knowledge. That is what they're effectively monetizing. But then very quickly, they need to go broad. I mean, I used to say to these fellows, I want you to be able to go to dinner, be able to dig deep in your area of expertise, but also have enough breadth that whatever the dinner conversation is, you have something smart to say. So it's. I think things fall into those four categories for me. What combination? That is up to the individual. That is up to the leader. It's up to what they bring to the table naturally. It's up to the circumstance in which they find themselves. But I think you'd probably agree with me, Chad, that if you are a leader that can only succeed in one particular environment, you're not going to get terribly far in today's world, because the world is moving so fast that it's just not credible that whatever you bought today is also going to be relevant two or three years from now.

Speaker B: The lifelong learner. The curiosity has to be innate in people in order to get past a certain point. I've interviewed hundreds, if not thousands of people over the course of my executive search career. And one of the things that it seems to be prevalent is people will sort of move through their career to a point where their skills take them to their innate skills, right? And then they sort of stop. And then in order to get past that point, you have to learn something new. You have to be curious, you have to take on board, you have to take that stretch assignment or put yourself out there and start your own business or add something to the repertoire. But it seems to me that if you're not willing to sort of force the curiosity and be comfortable being uncomfortable throughout your career. Most people just seem to kind of top out at some stage, and they just sit there. The rest of their career sort of plateaus, if you will. Do you agree with that observation, or do you think, is there something else that might be getting in the way when people plateau in their career?

Speaker A: I think all sorts of things get in the way of when people plateau. And I think curiosity or willingness to get uncomfortable is absolutely one of them. I mean, don't get me wrong, I am constantly uncomfortable, and do I enjoy it? No. But if I didn't let myself get uncomfortable, then I wouldn't be able to do all of the fun, exciting, stimulating things that I do. Do I fail? Yeah. Do I fail? In my eyes, certainly, I'm my own hardest taskmaster. But I agree with you 100%, which is, if you're not trying, then you're failing. You know, I used to ski a lot. I grew up skiing a lot. And I used to say, if I don't fall every day, then I'm not pushing myself hard enough. And I kind of believe that that's not a bad motto for life. If I'm not learning every day, yeah. Then maybe I'm doing something wrong. And I think, again, I think that is even more true for the leaders of tomorrow. You know, there's a great Justin Trudeau quote, and he said back in. I think it was 2018, he said, the world is moving faster today than it ever has and is moving slower today than it ever will. Now, if you agree with that, if you agree with that sentiment, and I very much do that the world is only going to get faster than it is today, then whatever got us here isn't going to get us to the next stage. So you better damn well be learning right now.

Speaker B: Correct me if I'm wrong, but did I read in your bio that at Oxford you were on rowing team, ski team, and fencing team, Is that correct?

Speaker A: Yes. Wow. Where did you find that? I didn't even realize that existed in the ether.

Speaker B: Oh, we have our ways anyhow. Uh, we have our ways. But I think what's interesting about that is, at a very young age, you've been stabbed, you have probably fallen out of a boat, and you've fallen down a mountain over and over again. The comment you just made about being willing to fall down every day, I think that's a tremendous gift to just be comfortable with the concept of failure and trying. I know a lot of people that I run into they're really uncomfortable. The idea like this may not turn out well and it prevents them from wanting to stick their neck out there and stuff. But you know, there's a question coming here if you're willing to answer it, but can you think of a time or two in your life where you fell down, you got some scar tissue, and it was a meaningful, impactful learning moment that allowed you to get up and go on to the next great thing.

Speaker A: I'll give you a story that's going to sound really petty, but I will say about once every three or four years I wake up sweating thinking about this. Uh, this was really early on in my career. It was my first job. I was a strategy consultant. This is just outside of Oxford. After I graduated from Oxford and So I'm a 22 year old, got no experience. Anyway, I get put on a project here in the UK working for an energy company. And this is the first meeting. And so we have, it's about 30 people in the room. They're all of the top people in this energy company. And then there's five or six from the consulting company. And we go around the room. It's the first ever meeting. We go around the room and we all introduce ourselves. And I'm last in line and so, you know, little pip squeak Zania kind of pipes up trying to defend what I'm bringing to the table. As a 22 year old with no experience, I do pretty dismally. We take a break immediately after. It's going to sound petty. Anyway, we go up to the coffee machine. The CEO of this massive multimillion pounds company is standing behind me ready to get coffee. And I stick my cup under the spout and I press the button on the top and the coffee comes out of the other side. So coffee goes all over the table. And I am now so humiliated. Not only am I clearly the least experienced person in that room, I don't know what I'm doing there, but I can't even work the coffee machine. And the CEOs standing behind me just watching this all. And I know what's going on in his head. He's like, wow, we are paying these guys. Like we're paying for this girl to be here. Absolutely humiliating. As I say, I wake up regularly, but it also kind of, I guess, taught me, yeah, we're always gonna embarrass ourselves, we'll say the wrong thing. I have a habit, despite having spent a number of years as a diplomat of putting my foot in my mouth and saying the Wrong thing and life goes on. The company continued to work for that client. Everything moved on. I didn't get fired for not knowing which side of the coffee machine did the coffee come out. That context that I think is so important and you learn from it, right? I learned that I can humiliate myself in front of the CEO of a massive company and it's okay. And I think that's the stuff that's useful, that is valuable in life. I decided quite early on I wasn't going to have regrets in life. Regrets come from the stuff you don't do, not from the stuff you do. Because the stuff you do, you learn from. And don't get me wrong, I've taken jobs which I knew were going to be hard and I've just found them, um, for whatever reason, whether it's personality or the issue we were dealing with, incredibly hard. And I have occasionally said, why on earth did I do this? And the answer is, well, because I'm learning from it. And it's what makes, I mean your listeners will detect that I have a British accent, but I'm half American. I worked for the US government. What makes America so incredibly strong is it has a culture of failure, actually makes you a success. In Silicon Valley. You fail, you're more likely to get funding rather than less likely. So in America, the culture is you fail, you brush yourself off, you stand up, you do it again and try not to fail using the same mistake. And in, uh, much of the world, even in Europe, we still kind of see failure as a problem. If you sit in Asia, failure is the potentially the end of your career. So that is one of the many things that America gets absolutely right is this idea of failure as a learning opportunity.

Speaker B: So that's a really interesting point you make about the cultural context of failure. If curiosity is something that leaders have to have in today's environment, how can somebody in a risk adverse culture at the same time be curious and try new things, practice maybe the American cultural or orientation you were talking about an environment where that's hard because you always got to be evolving or I think death is the next available option if you're not in business or in government or anything. So how can you be curious and try to think innovatively and ask new questions in a risk averse environment?

Speaker A: So I'll give you two answers. One is a really interesting, and it's true whether it's a risk averse environment or it isn't. And it's about how do you frame things. So let me give you an example, are you experimenting or are you prototyping? If you're prototyping, the idea is, is that you are trying something out that you think will succeed. And once you've done it, you'll find that there's some little errors here and there and you can improve upon it. If you're experimenting, the idea is, is that you're trying a host of different things from scratch to see what works with the expectation that some of them are going to fail. And so it's uh, a framing. Experimenting allows you to try a host of different things to find out which one succeeds best. Whereas prototyping sets the expectation that this is going to succeed. So I would say always experiment, don't prototype.

Speaker B: Prototype when you've got a lot of confidence in your experiment, prototype when you've

Speaker A: got a lot of confidence. So experiment, run 10 experiments all at the same time. And then once you've figured out what works, then prototype. But don't go straight into prototyping because if you go straight into prototyping, the expectation is that this is going to be a success. And when it's a failure, that's a problem. If you say to people at the start, we are experimenting, we are trying 10 experiments to see what's best, the expectation is failure for nine of them or for eight of them. And so framing is really, really important. The other thing I would say is listening, because again, it's kind of down to this curiosity, which is if you can listen to what people are saying, to what people are doing, to see behind the words. So it's not just about listening at a verbal level, but it's also listening at the kind of non verbal level. It gives you an awful lot of information that you otherwise wouldn't gather. And again, that allows you to kind of feed into curiosity, but also kind of get further along the road before you actually have to stick your head up. So again, I think a characteristic of leaders are, uh, that they can listen. If you can't listen, you unlikely to be able to gather the best information to make the best decisions.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's great advice. I've got one more question for you that I think our listeners would be really interested in. I mean, you're a curious person. I like to think I'm a curious person. My wife says I'm easily distracted. I think I'm a Renaissance man.

Speaker A: Of course, I'm sure you are.

Speaker B: It just depends on whose perspective you want to take. What are you curious about right now? Are there one or two things going on in this complex world that you referred to earlier that you sort of see in the corner and you're like, I m want to learn more about that.

Speaker A: I think, you know, it's a great question. And I've always wanted to do a PhD, but I've never been able to figure out the one topic I'm willing to spend three years of my life doing. So I've never done one. The bit that I'm curious about at the moment is kind of where I find myself sitting. So I find myself sitting in a space that is both macro and micro. I spend half of my time trying to understand the kind of big macro trends taking place in the world, us, China, the economic challenges we're facing, technology, AI Wither, uh, Europe. So I spend a lot of my time in that macro space. And I think that we're living through a moment. And again, Dee was talking about this in one of your earlier podcasts. We're living in a moment that can be defined by dynamism. Whether you believe it's a VUCA world, this kind of US military expression, volatile, uncertain, complex, ambiguous, or is it a pluto world, or is it a bani world, lots of acronyms. But what we do know is it's volatile, it's dynamic, it's changing, it's complex. And then I spend about half my time sitting in what I call a micro world, sitting one on one with senior leaders, CEOs, uh, C suite board members as a coach, trying to understand their day to day decisions or help them figure out how do they make their day to day decisions and how they move forward, whether it's around the business, around their own career, whatever it is. And so it's the nexus, it's what we've been talking about, that nexus. How do we bring that macro understanding to that micro world? What is the kind of leadership, not even generic leadership, how do you, Chad, turn up as a leader with everything you're bringing to the table, your own unique set of characteristics to deliver to your organization. In a moment when the world is incredibly uncertain and volatile, what do you need to turn up with? And so that's the area of curiosity, which is both understanding as much as I can about the macro and the micro, but also living where you started in this case of uncertainty. And if you're not uncomfortable, then you're probably in the wrong place.

Speaker B: That's a great way to end. Um, thank you for answering that question. Well, look, first off, thanks for joining us. It's been great. I'm glad we finally did get you in the program. A lot of good insights here. If our audience wanted to learn more about you or I know you've done a lot of contributions into media and podcast. You're out and about a lot. But if people want to learn more about your thinking or follow you in any way, what's the best way to do that?

Speaker A: Thank you for the question. Great question. So as you said, you Google Zanier Wicket. There really is only one Zanier Wicket out there. So you can find all sorts of things that I've written or media spots that I've done. But the best way to kind of latch on on a more regular basis is if you go to my website www.wicket with two Ts W I C K E t-tadvisory.com and you can sign up to my blog there. And I try not to use it too much, but you probably will get an email once, maybe twice a month including. I do send out an email of my monthly what I've learned this month. That looks at the macro, looks at what I'm learning about people and what I'm learning about myself. Because it's one hell of a journey.

Speaker B: Well, uh, that's one hell of a journey indeed. Well, I would encourage everyone to sign up for Zinnia's blog. It is very interesting, it's always thought provoking, and as you can tell, she's got a lot to think about and a lot to say. Well, thanks for joining us again and I look forward to our next episode. And Zeni, I wish you all the best in your adventures here and I'll be following you and your path of curiosity. Have a great day.

Speaker A: Thanks, Chad. It's being a bull.

Speaker B: If you're ready to make better leadership decisions and avoid the costly ones, subscribe to from the Top with Chad Hesters on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time, thanks for listening.