The Biblical Arithmetic In Our Lives - Doug Witherup

Speaker A: 40% of the time Jesus was teaching, he was the one asking questions, which is a little mind blowing. You have the all knowing, the omnipotent, omniscient, uh, person of the union, and he's the one asking questions. So what's he doing? He's leading in discovery. So he's telling a story, leading in discovery. And 80% of the time there's either a miracle moment or a call to action. What I call these encounter, encounter moments. And I think sometimes that's the part that we miss is that we're giving good information, we're giving hopefully some inspiration. But really at the end of the day, Paul uses the word impartation. And so what is that moment of impartation? What is that? What's the Spirit doing? And how can we respond? And then how can we lead people as communicators into that moment, um, of what the Spirit is actually doing in their lives?

Speaker B: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Framework Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Ken Ingle, president of Southeastern University. And joining me today is our co host, Michael Steiner, SE Senior vice president for Advancement, Innovation. And today we're joined by Doug Withrop. Doug is the global senior pastor of Multiply Family Churches, which is an apostolic network spanning what, three continents. And he is also a tremendous partner with us in raising up the next generation of leaders. Through our SCU Carolina campus, Doug brings a powerful blend, um, of deep theology and I would say revival. And he's here today to talk about his brand new book, Multipliers. Yeah, and it's all about unlocking the five mindsets of multiplication. So I'm anxious to get into it, but we're honored to have you on the show.

Speaker A: Thank you. Honor to be here.

Speaker B: Yeah. Uh, I want to talk about the multiplier mindset. You, uh, write that God's original design for humanity in the very first book of the Bible in Genesis was not about survival. It wasn't about maintenance, uh, or even addition, but it was all about multiplication. What inspired you to write multipliers? And why do you believe we have lost sight of that original mandate and calling?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting. So really God's first words to humanity were this blessing to multiply. This be fruitful and multiply. And as soon as those words are out of the Lord's mouth, the enemy counters, because that's what he do. He can't create, so he can only manipulate. And he counters with take a bite. So the first two options for all of humanity are these ideas of multiplication versus consumerism and so you see this template early on and really for then thousands of years of humanity, our choice of whether we're going to step into our true multiplication destiny or this endless cycle of consumerism and what's powerful.

Speaker C: So my wife and I, we were talking about, um, uh, this year in our schooling, our girls were memorizing that passage. They were memorizing the first 27 verses of Genesis chapter one. And one of the topics we had to them, and we were kind of talking about it, is how, you know, uh, by the laws of nature, thermodynamics, nothing can multiply. Every transaction goes down that you don't get. You don't get more when you make a transaction. So the fact that God created in such a way to where he gave us a pathway to multiply, like, uh, there's a divine spark in that because only he can take something and multiply

Speaker A: it into more than what you had previously, that's fascinating. But it really is. It's the supernatural. It's the super to the natural. We bring the natural. Only God brings the super. And it is that divine. The first covenant. You know, we hear a lot about the Abrahamic covenant, Davidic covenant, and of course the most important covenant with the covenant of the cross. But it all stems from that original Edenic covenant that humanity is the only creature that has that divine call to step into multiplication, to multiply.

Speaker C: And so what does it mean to become the kind of leader that has the mindset of multiplication? How does it, how do you do that and what does that mean?

Speaker A: Yeah, so I would say that it's starts by breaking the addition. As leaders, I think it's so easy to choose addition in our lives. And here's what I mean by that. So I would say that consumerism or addition thinking actually starts from a place of subtraction. So if you think of those four symbols, right, Division. Nobody likes division, especially long division. Let's just get rid of that. So you have subtraction, addition, multiplication. Well, if you start with subtraction, the mindset there is, I'm missing something from my life, so I need to add something to be fulfilled. And so we do. And we are, for a moment. But then it's this cycle back to subtraction. So, um, and it's different. Tell me if you found this to be true. It's different across generations.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So boomers, Xers, millennials, we were the boomers, and Xers were material goods m our malls. We could roll up our jeans and go into a mall and buy. We're gonna buy our way to happiness. Millennials came on the scene and said, boomers, you chased the corporate ladder, Gen X, you bought all this stuff and you're not happy. We want experiences, so we're gonna travel to this place, we're gonna rock climb, we're gonna repel a waterfall. And I'm not mad at any of those things. They're not bad in and of itself. But it right, if I'm going to add this to my life, and we think we're going to be happy, but we end up back in the same place. It's only God that says that doesn't satisfy because you were actually destined to step into multiplication. So as leaders, if we keep trying to add in for leaders, it can be even worse because it can be accomplishments. Um, and I describe it like this. So there's two things that are frustrating. One is having a goal and you don't get there. So you're frustrated. I want to win an NBA championship and I don't have a ring. And so I'm frustrated because I don't have it. That's frustrating. What I think is even worse for a leader is when you have a goal, you achieve the goal, and you still feel empty. Oh, wow. Uh, that's scary. I got my ring, I got the six figures, I got the promotion, I got the whatever. Fill in the blank, and you still end up feeling less than. That can be scary.

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker B: And you see that all the time. In the book, you actually break down the Edenic covenant, uh, which is Genesis 1:28.

Speaker A: Correct.

Speaker B: Um, into actually five. Those five distinct mindsets. One of those is, uh, uh, Amar, which is walking in a God. It's actually walking in a God spoken identity. How does anchoring our identity in what God has spoken protected leaders from the performance and the comparison traps of modern culture?

Speaker A: I think it's an every. It's an everyday thing that we have to walk through. And I think so. So the Amar, um, there I think is key. God delivers this identity through the vehicle of the spoken word. So, and God said to them, uh, so I think there's something even when you think of Jesus when his baptism, he comes up out of the water, and his Father, Jesus didn't need it, right, because he was fully God. But even there is the Father speaking that identity. This is my son, in whom I am well pleased. So there's that spoken blessing. So then the enemy tries to steal the identity. And the way that Jesus, uh, counters that, and this was fascinating to me. Jesus doesn't pray it away. He doesn't listen to worship music, he doesn't read scripture. All of those are great. The way that Jesus counters that is he speaks scripture out loud. And so I wonder because reading the Bible is really fairly new in all of humanity. Right. The last thousand years, for most of our history, we didn't have the Bible to read. So what did people do? They memorized scripture and they spoke it. So I wonder if we've lost something by reading the word instead of speaking the word you were talking about just

Speaker C: public reading of scripture.

Speaker A: Public reading of scripture. I think there's something to that.

Speaker C: Super powerful. And if you don't know, if you don't know, we're talking about at Southeastern, we participate in a large network of, um, organizations that do public reading of scripture. And so every single week we have our students come in and we read scripture out loud to them. We're part of a big network. And so definitely something you should check out for your organization across the board from there.

Speaker A: But yes, I begin, I begin almost every day, um, with declaring scripture over my life and my family and because I don't always, always wake up, you know, pastors little secrets. But you don't always wake up thinking, boy, today is a day of victory, faith and power. Sometimes those thoughts of the enemy come in of, boy, I got a meeting and I don't know if I'm going to do well in this meeting. I've got a sermon, I don't know if I'm ready for it. And I have to counter those lies against my identity by speaking, declaring the word of go. And of course not to get off on a tangent, But Caroline Leaf, Dr. Caroline Leaf, goes into the neuroscience of how our brains actually rewire themselves when we begin to declare these things over our lives. But I think that Amar is key. Speaking the word of God.

Speaker B: Yeah. You know, you're not just writing uh, about these concepts, but I mean you are actively living them out. The multiply family of churches has grown, uh, from a single congregation to now what is a 10, uh, churches across uh, three continents. When you're leading at that global scale, how do you maintain the integrity and the DNA of your vision across such. Because they have to be diverse cultures. So how do you do that?

Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I would say the same of Southeastern. I was thinking about this just today. So 15 years ago, very great university. 2,300 students, one location. Fast forward 15 years later, over 14,000 students, 200 plus, uh, Africa, Argentina. Like it's absolutely amazing. And so it's Neat to be able to have this conversation in the context of a multiplying organization. But I would say maintaining that culture DNA across. Um, and tell me if you degree full time job.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker A: Not like you never get there.

Speaker C: Um, oh yeah.

Speaker A: Shared language, shared mission. Having a mission that's bigger than any one location, that we're all part of this together. So the multiply family. Um, we say that we want to do two things. We want to multiply churches and multiply disciples. So we want to plant churches that plant other churches. We want to make disciples who make other disciples. Um, and so, yeah, just that shared language and shared vision I think is key.

Speaker B: Yeah, that's so important.

Speaker C: Yeah, love it. And multiple. A massive part of your multiplication strategy also involves discipleship, which is what we get to partner with you on with uh, Su Carolina, tell us a little bit about how integrating higher ed into what you guys are doing has been able to help with that mission.

Speaker A: Oh, it's, it's absolutely amazing. It really has been a game changer for our church and for our organization. Um, it's interesting. Jesus never said go and make consumers of spiritual content. Right. He said go and make disciples. And those are, those are different things. You know, we're so connected to the screens and if we're not careful, we'll, we'll turn discipleship into. Well, I watched 47 YouTube shorts today. I watched 13 TikToks. Um, and that's great. I'm not against content creation. We're doing it now. Exactly. However, that discipleship of life, on life and just this, the partnership, I think with the academy and the church is key of bringing deep, robust theology, good doctrine, a deep dive into scripture. This isn't what an influencer told me. I know it because I know, I know hermeneutics, I know uh, homiletics, I know theology and then the practicality of the church. And that's again, I think what I've got to have a front row with Southeastern University over the last 15 years is seeing who would have thought that the academy would have gotten separated from the church.

Speaker C: Well, what's great. So I was talking to a friend of mine who's a leader at another large, um, institution, Faith based taking seriously theological education. And he said it was so powerful yesterday. He said an institution can be obsessed with degrees and make everything about trying to get more degrees and not end up at discipleship like they can. Just because you have degrees doesn't mean you get discipleship. But if you really take seriously discipleship, if Your goal is discipleship. You will find that education, informal education, it has to be part of the process. Like, you don't get to really accomplish the goal. And so as churches really take seriously that discipleship, it becomes really apparent that we gotta work together on this.

Speaker A: That is so true that you're seeing, um, deep, deep study in the classrooms and then that and Passion in chapels. Right. And if you can get those two things together, which Southeastern has. And that's been, again, one of the amazing things of partnering with Southeastern, uh, for us is it's allowed us, it's allowed us a framework discipleship, especially with the next generation that have a call on their lives.

Speaker B: And when you look and study the origins of education, you see how formation flowed out. Discipleship flowed out of the church.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: And so, uh, I think we're kind of getting back to that in many ways, and that's significant. I want to. A couple more questions. Um, I want to focus on communicating like Jesus. Uh, communication. I, uh, love communication and studying communication. And you, you wrote an incredible book in Taro, uh, bang preaching. Um, you studied exactly how Jesus communicated, found that he totally relied on stories, he relied on questions, uh, encounters, experiences. How do you train this next generation of pastors to communicate the gospel in a way that sparks genuine, true transformation rather than just delivering information?

Speaker A: Uh, absolutely. So that was a fascinating study. And that's how I started out. I just went through Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. And I had a yellow pad and I just. Every preaching encounter of Jesus, there's about 144 of them in the New Testament, give or take, if you could combine a couple, but around 144. And it was fascinating. So 60% of the time that Jesus was teaching, he was telling stories. Um, and then I used the acronym because it's a little more than a story. And so I used the acronym A SIM card. S I M. So they were stories, they were images. But there was also what I call the secret sauce of the metaphor. Um, C.S. lewis talks about teaching with a master metaphor. And so there was the SIM card. 40% of the time Jesus was teaching, he was the one asking questions, which is a little mind blowing. You have the all knowing, the omniscient, uh, person of the unit, and he's the one asking questions. So what's he doing? He's leading in discovery. So he's telling a story, leading in discovery. And 80% of the time, there's either a miracle moment or a call to action. What I call these encounter, encounter moments. And I think Sometimes that's the part that we miss is that we're giving good information, we're giving hopefully some inspiration. But really at the end of the day, uh, Paul uses the word impartation. And so what is that moment of impartation? What is that? What's the spirit doing? And how can we respond? And then how can we lead people as communicators into that moment, um, of what the Spirit is actually doing in their lives?

Speaker C: So what does it look like for a preacher, a minister, for them to shift their sermon prep to be about those moments and those encounters? Like what are some of the things that they have to do in order to really cultivate that experience with their preaching?

Speaker A: I think. Is it Simon Sinek that asks the question, begin with the end in mind? Yep. Uh, yeah, and that's a great leadership question. But I think it's a great preacher question, begin with the end in mind. So, um, I like to surf, so that's kind of my like hobby. And here's one thing that surfers can't do. A surfer can never create a wave. So a surfer, if you watch them, they'll paddle out and then they'll sit up on their boards and they're scanning the horizon, where's the wave? And then I'm gonna paddle into the curl of the wave. I think that's the first job of the preacher spiritually is just to say, holy Spirit, what are you doing? I can't create a wave. I've been in those services where we've tried.

Speaker B: Those are rough surfaces.

Speaker A: So we're not trying to work something up. We're not trying to manufacture anything. But Holy Spirit, what are you doing? And how can I lead people right into the curl of that encounter moment? Yeah.

Speaker B: That's so good. Love that.

Speaker C: I love it. I love it. Um, love, uh, thank, uh, you so much for the time and uh, joining us and m. Thank you for your partnership and your leadership. I think we, uh, love this conversation, uh, we have today. Right, Dr. Engel?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And to pick up a copy of Doug's new book Multipliers, or to learn more about the Multipliers masterclass, you can visit douglaswithrop.com you can also find out more about his global ministry at Multipliers. Is it Multiply Church?

Speaker A: Correct.

Speaker B: Uh, and yeah, uh, we're just grateful for you. And also, by the way, Doug serves as the chairman of the board of Southeastern University. Grateful to have a leader, a multiplier, who understands the importance of what we do and faith based higher education and especially how it flows out of the local church. Um, yeah. So grateful for you and all you're doing.

Speaker A: Thank you so much. So grateful for our relationship and partnership together.

Speaker B: Love it.

Speaker C: Thank you so much for listening to the Framework Leadership Podcast. We'll see you next time.

Speaker B: Take care everybody.

Speaker C: Thanks for joining us on Framework Leadership. If you're watching on YouTube hit like and subscribe so leadership insights keep coming your way. You can also catch every episode on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And for bonus resources, subscribe to the Framework leadership newsletter@kentingle.com make sure to follow us on Instagram at the end Entangle and Rmichaelsteiner and on X enttingle and on Facebook ent.ingle to stay up to date with the podcast and everything happening at Southeastern University.

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