FP&A Career Advice and the Current State of FP&A with Glenn and Paul

Glenn: One of the biggest topics that I get asked about are job openings. I know a lot of people who, in the last year, year and a half, companies, you know, they've laid off, they've downsized. It's a tough job market out there. Now, one of the things that I think, you know, as we're talking about, some of these education people say, what can I go out and do that will make me better, that will make me more attractive? And, you know, I'm not sure if some of these certification programs necessarily do that. That's what you mentioned as well. But, you know, when we think about, how do you go make yourself a little more attractive to companies and, you know, help kind of find that next job? You know, my answer to people right now in this job market is all about networking.

Speaker B: Welcome to another episode of FP&A unlocked. We'll call this a State of the Union.

Paul Barnhurst: So that's why Glenn's here with me. We're going to give our, uh, State of FP and A. And so we're really excited to have you join us. And we're going to bypass all the formalities and the normal script I read and jump right into things today. So we'll start with Glenn.

Speaker B: How you doing?

Glenn: Doing good. How are you doing, Paul?

Paul Barnhurst: Doing well, keeping busy.

Speaker B: Excited to do this episode. How's Riveron, uh, treating you?

Glenn: Oh, Riveron's great. I'm on a real exciting project right now. Lots of stuff to do. But I'm very excited about this because I get asked by so many people about all these different aspects of FP and A and what's going on, and I love the idea that we're going to cover just a bunch of different topics here and just kind of say, here's. Here's where we're at. How FP&A is a ballsy.

Paul Barnhurst: You know, one topic we're going to skip, just so everybody's aware, is AI. Glenn and I figured there's enough talk about AI. We want to talk about the other important topics. Right, Glenn?

Glenn: Absolutely. And if you want to learn about AI, the last episode that I was on, great episode, Talking about the impact

Paul Barnhurst: of AI And I have some episodes coming in the future, so look for more.

Glenn: All right, so why don't we dive in? So the first one, the first topic, it's around FP and A education. Now, there's a couple ways to look at this. I think there is certification programs that are out there, but I could tell you, because I also do some work with UCLA, and so with students about understanding FP&A. And there isn't really, you know, as part of an undergraduate education, there isn't really FP and A classes out there. It's kind of interesting and you know, everyone talks about accounting and you know, you could go and take lots of accounting classes, but you don't really see an FP and A. Despite the fact that just about every company has an FP and a group.

Paul Barnhurst: I've seen some conversations on LinkedIn, I've seen Carl Seidman weigh in on this. And I think one of the reasons you don't see a lot of education in university is one FP and A

Speaker B: is a fairly new field in developing.

Paul Barnhurst: If you not budgeting, forecasting originally was kind of a controller. You look in Europe, you know, you have your kind of your FP and A controller. A lot of times it came out of that. And first it was more of a lot of times just planning and reporting function.

Speaker B: I used to refer to as FP&R

Paul Barnhurst: in the last 15, 20 years. I think it's something almost every company has developed. But then think over your career. At least I know for mine how different was FP&A from company to company.

Glenn: That's true. However, I would say 70% of what you do in FP&A has certain principles and approaches that apply across every company. I mean, I've worked. Forget about my consulting career. Prior to consulting, I worked in seven different industries and there wasn't much of a difference if I went from financial services to consumer goods to data centers to vacation rentals. It's the same approach on how you build out partnerships with people, how you analyze data. And that is something I think that really could be taught.

Paul Barnhurst: I would agree with you. I definitely think there's some skills to teach, but I think that's a little bit of why it's taken longer. Also, I don't know that there's as many academic people with FP and A backgrounds. Right? You look at many of the other courses, there's plenty of academics, investment banking, accounting, many of the other finance courses. So I'm just trying to play a little bit of devil of advocate and think why we don't have them. I'm not saying they're good reasons, but maybe, you know, what are some of the reasons.

Glenn: I agree with you, but I think that's a gap that needs to be filled because I think about my own career. I came out of college, I went to UCLA as an undergrad. I was active in a, uh, in the largest Business club on campus. In fact, I was vice president my senior year. I had a good sense of a lot of the different fields that were out there. I went into banking, commercial lending in particular, right out of college. It wasn't until three years later I had my first FP and A job. And when I applied for the role, I'd never even heard of FP&A before. I was three years out of college and it was like, what is this? And it was just. And all of a sudden I was like, oh, my God, this is fantastic. Because it's all the analysis that I love. It was the building, the partnerships, but it wasn't having to deal with external companies and lack of data and selling and all that kind of stuff. And I was like, wow, I wish I would have known about this though, as an undergrad. And because I think there's a really great career path in FP and A that, you know, people coming out of college today, they just don't know about it.

Paul Barnhurst: I would agree with you. I, uh. I didn't know about FP and A even coming out of my mba. You know, my undergrad, I wasn't in finance.

Speaker B: And I really just got an FP and A because there was the opportunity to get promoted and I wanted a

Paul Barnhurst: finance role and I had a little bit of forecasting experience. I thought it would be a good opportunity and they were going to pay me more. That's how I ended up in FP&A. I'll be completely honest.

Glenn: Yeah, I, um, Mean, FDA does pay better typically than accounting and other finance roles. But I just think that that's one of those things that I would love to see a greater or faster evolution on the academia side because there is a skill set that you can teach.

Speaker B: Well, agree.

Paul Barnhurst: I mean, and we've seen it in

Speaker B: the secondary market, so to speak, versus the university market.

Glenn: Right.

Speaker B: Just professional education market.

Paul Barnhurst: You got AFP has the F pack. You know, you have, um, the Chartered Financial Manager or Certified Financial Manager, kind of like cpa, you know, CFM or whatever they call it there. And that definitely has some FP and A elements to it. And then you have some of these other programs that are much more certificates than kind of the credentials Wharton or whoever. So we're seeing more and more. And almost all those programs are relatively new. They're all in the last. I think the oldest is AFP program. It's what, a decade old. Or cma. Certified Management Accountant. That's what I was trying to think of. Said the wrong name earlier. You Know, they may be the oldest, but they're also, I would say, the least direct FP and A. They're a more broad certificate.

Glenn: Right. And the funny thing is, is that someone who is, you know, led and built out FPA teams. Although I think the programs are really good to help people learn about FP and A potentially transition into a role. Uh, you know, when you're hiring though, it still comes down to your experience. What have you seen, what have you done carries so much more weight. It's not like being a CPA in accounting, right? Where it's like you can't really go into a, you know, controller role if you're not a cpa. You can go into an FP and a role if you don't have any of those certifications.

Paul Barnhurst: Uh, and that, that's what I tell people. I get people 10, 15 years experience. Hey, should I get this? You know, probably at your point, you don't need it. If you want the learning or you want the credential, fine. But don't expect it to open a lot of doors where if you're three to five years in, often that certificate

Speaker B: can help with the next promotion or

Paul Barnhurst: it can make a difference. And so I do. There's definitely value in them and they're good career changes and things, but, yeah, they're not the same as the opportunities the CFA opens or a CPA or obviously for a lawyer, having your, you know, passing the bar, Right?

Glenn: That's right. But at the same time, there is a narrow field, right? I mean, if you're, uh, a cfa, you basically got to be in money management somewhere. Like, you know, you don't, you know, CFA is not a broad credential to have for corporate finance. You know, cpa, same thing. It's accounting. And that's kind of where you have to be. I've always told people if, uh, you want a different kind of degree or something, kind of the best thing is an mba. It gives you that broader sense of how people try and manage business. And ultimately, when you are in FP and A, it's trying to make those connections for what the business manager is trying to do and figure out what is the best way to have that business manager achieve their goals while keeping the constraints, if you will, that that finance puts on there around things like, uh, you know, managing with their budget, that type of thing.

Paul Barnhurst: Thing.

Glenn: So it's just one of those things where I think this is, uh, a space that's still evolving. But for those people who are early in their careers, I think that some of these classes and programs could be outstanding, and if nothing else, it's a great networking opportunity.

Paul Barnhurst: No, And I think some of these certifications, obviously, I've developed courses for some of them. I think they have some great programs. So I'm not saying, hey, nobody should do them, but I do think it'd be great to see a few more at the university level, and I think they're most beneficial early in a career.

Glenn: So I want. I'm going to pivot this a little bit, because one of the biggest topics that I get asked about are job openings. I know a lot of people who, in the last year, year and a half, companies, you know, they've laid off, they've downsized. It's a tough job market out there. Now, one of the things that I think, you know, as we're talking about some of these educations, people say, what can I go out and do that will make me better, that will make me more attractive? And I, you know, I'm not sure if some of these certification programs necessarily do that. That's what you mentioned as well. But, you know, when, uh, we think about, how do you go and make yourself a little more attractive to companies and to, uh, you know, help kind of find that next job? You know, my. My answer to people right now in this job market is all about networking. It is you. It's about who you know and who could go over and do the right introduction for you and. And could be your advocate. That's really what you want to be looking for. Because just applying to jobs on LinkedIn, oof. I mean, I've been there. That is tough. It is like a, uh, 1%, you know, hit rate that you end up getting. And I'm not saying don't do it, but I have found organizations like, you know, FEI is a really good example. Finance Executives International. They're all over the country. And, you know, to go and get to meet other, like, people, get to know them, have them get to know you, it's probably the best way because they will. If they. If you build up that good relationship and they hear something, they will pass it along to you, and they will be that advocate that you're looking for. But to me, that's one of the big topics out there right now is. Is if you're out of a job in FP&A. What's the strategy?

Paul Barnhurst: Uh, I usually give a couple pronged approach to people, and a lot of people are wanting to get into FP&A. Some are out of work so it's different answer depending on where they're at. But first I'd say, are there educational gaps? You need to show your learning, that you're curious. That's not going to get you the job, but it can keep you from getting the job if you have clear gaps. So do you need to learn better modeling? Do you need to do this? And I. And those answers vary depending on what type of company and where they're at, but something educationally 100% behind you. Networking, I always tell them that's huge. But I also tell people something that can help you be visible that's not directly networking is find a way to share, kind of building a brand. And I tell people, look, you don't need to become an influencer. You don't need to post on LinkedIn every day. What I tell people is everybody has a story, something they can share that others can connect to. That can be video, it can be audio, it can be written, it can be blogs, it can be whatever. But it puts you out there and it helps build a brand and it shows credibility if you're thoughtful in the way you approach it. So I tell people, you will get benefit from it. And I always remind them, the reality is you're probably going to stink at it at first. Everybody does. If you're kind of sharing a lot and having people comment, but sticking with it or putting a portfolio together, that can help open up doors, just like networking. And, you know, some people will take me up on it, Others it's like, yeah, no, I don't want to do that. And it's not necessarily for everybody, but it opens doors is what I found. So I usually mention that. So people at least think, oh, I hadn't thought about, maybe I should do something to make myself more visible.

Glenn: And along those lines, I like to tell people about this as well, that when you are in between roles, you got a little more time on your hands. You know, one of the best things that you could do is create that story. When you go into the interview and someone says, so what have you been doing since you left your last role? And one of the things that I love is volunteering. And there's a local food bank here. And I was between, between roles for about four months, you know, back in, I think, 2011. And one of the things I did is I went to that food bank and I went online and I said, you know, I signed up to volunteer and I went over and there was a little comment section. I said, I attached my resume and I Said, look, I'm happy to go over and sort through groceries or pass out food if you like, but here's my resume. If there's something else I could do, let me know. The next day I get a call from the cfo and the CFO said, are you kidding me? Yeah, we could use you. And I helped rewrite their accounting and finance manual. I helped build out some access databases on food banks and when they were open and food delivered, stuff like that, and connects and dots. I really made an impact on this organization that was doing great, you know, great things in the community, but it was also a little finance related. So when I was interviewing. Oh, what have you been doing? Oh, I've been volunteering with the CFO of this food bank and helping them on these different things. And everyone's like, oh my God, that's really great. Wow. And it's like it opens people's eyes up to say, look, you know what you're giving back to the community. Most companies, especially large companies, love to see that. And it keeps your skills a little fresh and keeps you busy and it tells a great story. So think about some, um, charities that you really like here in your neighborhood.

Paul Barnhurst: I think that's a great example. And I've often told people a great way to network and get involved and is volunteer to be a treasurer or

Speaker B: the finance person for, uh, an organization that needs it.

Paul Barnhurst: It shows initiative. It's like, hey, especially people trying to make that transition. Like, hey, I'm trying to do things to help me get better and show some of those skills.

Speaker B: I help build the budget for this organization or whatever.

Paul Barnhurst: I mean, even if you don't get

Speaker B: a job, people are going to admire that. It's never going to hurt you.

Paul Barnhurst: It can only help you.

Glenn: And the thing is that we talk in FP and a, a lot about being storytellers and you got to think about how are you going to tell your story and what is it about you that sets everyone else apart? If I'm a hiring manager and I'm interviewing 15 people, I'm looking at 15 resumes and everybody shows me their work experience. And they were a financial analyst and they got promoted financial manager. Okay, great. What is it that sets them apart? Oh, I see something down there on other interests, volunteer at whatever charity organization or here are some hobbies. And you know, everybody puts things like travel and stuff on there. What's funny is for me, although I can't say this anymore, for 25 years, I was a partial season ticket holder with the Oakland A's, and there are very few of us, by the way. I like to point that out, but I got asked probably, like, maybe once out of every three interviews I was on. Somebody would tell me about a story where they were in the Bay Area or they're doing something and they went to an A's game and they, you know, how much they liked it or whatever. And if I could tell you if I'm in an interview and we're talking about baseball, um, it's going to be a good interview for me. Right. So, you know, do something like that to make yourself stand out. Don't just keep it all about business, because you're just going to blend in with everything else. Show your personality a little bit, show your interest, because that's how you make that personal connection.

Paul Barnhurst: So two things I'll add there, and I think we can kind of move to other topics. But one, I put on a resume that I was an Eagle Scout, and I remember I got an interview. One of the jobs I got, he said, one of the main reasons I interview you is I saw it on your resume.

Glenn: Yep.

Paul Barnhurst: And so don't be afraid to put personal things. Obviously, you know, keep the boundaries where they need to be. There are some things that are totally appropriate to share. If you have a question, maybe ask somebody you trust, because, you know, there are times where we see some things on resumes. You're like, I probably didn't need to know that.

Glenn: Yeah, you got to avoid the cringeworthy

Paul Barnhurst: stuff and sometimes politics or, you know, religion type things.

Speaker B: Tread lightly with those is all I'll say.

Glenn: By the way, I'm an Eagle Scout as well, and it is one of the things that I'm very proud of, and it is on my resume, and it does when you meet people. And by the way, I have found that if you are talking to someone who's had a military background, even though I've never been in the military, I've. They've always gone over, say, wow, you're an Eagles guy. And they. They kind of, you know, they're impressed with that. It is just a way. Sometimes you make that connection. Uh, it's pretty cool. So things like that, you never know. I mean, you know, we did that in high school. Right. So we've got our ego.

Paul Barnhurst: I agree with you. The second I was going to add, before we move to the next topic, is another thing, and I had often asked this in interviews, is, tell me something you're learning could be personal or professional, because they want to see that you're always learning. And so that's important that time doesn't just have to be volunteer, but if you can clearly show you're always developing, especially when you're out of work. Versus, oh, I beat Madden 2026. Yeah. Probably not what to share. Right, that's cool. But they're going to be like, all right, so he plays video games all day. Or she probably not the person we want. So make sure you can think of those development things, even if they're in your personal life, because that could be a great connection. Oh, I decided to take a pickleball and I'm learning and now I'm starting to coach others, or I'm training for a marathon, whatever it might be. Just showing that initiative and that opportunity to connect. It doesn't always have to be personal, but make sure you're developing.

Glenn: All right, so the next thing that, uh, I think we hear a lot about is how FP&A is shifting. And it's shifting more to be that strategic partner. Very large companies, they're going to have corporate strategy groups, but a lot of companies out there don't. And FP and A kind of defaults into that role as that strategic partner as well. And one of the things is that, as I think over the last 10, 15 years, 15 years ago, you say, how do you get to be the CFO of a company? Everyone's going to say, you got to be a corporate controller, you got to be a cpa, you got to know the financials and accounting. Today, it's more about being that strategic partner, understanding the business, understanding the drivers of the business, and connecting with people so that you could be that leader who could have the conversation with the sales team, with the marketing team, with the operations team, and get them motivated and help manage the company overall. Almost like a junior CEO.

Paul Barnhurst: 100% agree. I mean, I've seen some codes where a lot of people use when they're,

Speaker B: uh, you know, in a director role, supporting a specific business for FP&A. Sometimes you see the term divisional CFO,

Paul Barnhurst: even though they may not be doing everything because they're trying to show, look,

Speaker B: I was basically the mini CFO for this business.

Glenn: I think a lot about, you know, some of the things I mean, and we've covered this in other podcasts, but it's just so critical that if you are focus, if you're an FPA and you're just thinking about the financials, you're missing the boat. Because financials are a result of what's happening in the Business. The business has underlying metrics and drivers and that's what the business leaders are focused on. Tell a more complete story, bring that data into your financial reports, connect the dots, tell a bigger picture story. Because it's not just going to now resonate with people in finance, but it's going to resonate throughout your entire organization. And that's really what people are looking for. If you're a CFO and let's just say you're a CFO of a private equity owned company and you're going to go and you know, on a quarterly basis, you're in front of the board talking about what's going on. If you're nose down and just reading financial data off of a spreadsheet, they're going to be like, what's happening in the business? What you know, why is this going on? The, the why is more important sometimes than the what. And that's one of those skills that's really shifted a lot over the last couple of, you know, decades that it used to be. You got to get your numbers, you're doing your budget variances. And a lot of times people used to do what I called elevator analysis. This went up, that went down, okay, fine, but the next natural question is why? What happened? And you got to tell that story now, otherwise you're going to fail in your role.

Paul Barnhurst: FP and a guy here Agentic uh, AI is one of the biggest shifts in finance ever and most FPA leaders are still struggling to figure it out. On May 21st, I'm hosting the FP&A in AI software showcase with two of the leading AI agents in the marketplace. Concourse and Sapien. Plus leading planning tools drivetrain and Una. Uh, AI one sitting real demos register at the fpnaguy.com FPA software showcase. That's fpnaguy.com fpa-software showcase.

Speaker B: See you on the 21st.

Paul Barnhurst: First a hundred percent business acumen, the ability to connect operational metrics, the whole idea of understanding the business, that's really what FP&A is about. We're just coming at it as a steward of the financials and through the cfo. I've seen some companies that have even taken FP and A and put them under the CEO. I knew of a company that did that. I've seen some where they've integrated FP and A throughout the business to have more of that platform planning in smaller companies, particularly like you said, your strategic finance. You're also often kind of a consultant in many ways and you probably See that in your day job now doing FP&A consulting, you can see the similarity. And so I think you have tremendous opportunity in companies that are forward thinking, understand what FP and A can be. And if you have that versus some that still think of FP and A as back office and hey, you just deal my budget and you're the no police and stay out of what I'm doing. I've been in those companies too and that I don't want to be in that environment. It's not fun.

Glenn: 100% agree. In fact, here's something else that I'd recommend to our, our listeners out there. Don't be afraid to take a job in the business. When I think about my career, you know, my first real fp, uh and A role was at Franklin Templeton. And I was in corporate FP and A for two years. And then I moved into the business and then when I went to Visa, I went back into FP&A and then I moved into the business and then when I went to Charles Schwaba's in corporate FP&A, and then I moved into the business and what it allowed me to do was to see from both, you know, looking at the business from kind of both sides of the fence and understanding having that financial discipline and you got to tie out the data, it's got to have integrity, those types of things, you got to deliver things on time. But now you're doing it in a more strategic business way to solve other problems that have impacts on customers, on revenues, on product development, on whatever it happens to be. And when you, huh, take those roles, you could always go back into FP&A. But it's the combination of the two that I think makes it really valuable. I always like to tell people if you're doing FP and A, right, you have one foot in finance and kind of one foot in strategy. And it's that strategy side that you really learn. I think being out in the business,

Paul Barnhurst: I would agree with that. I mean if you're doing FP and A, right, you're helping the business make faster decisions. And in order to do that, you have to understand the business. It's not about the financial numbers, it's about what drove them. And that's operational in nature. Bottom line, if you want to be a better FP and a professional, get to know your business better. Not the only thing, but it is one thing you have to do.

Glenn: Absolutely. And I would just to uh, kind of maybe close this topic out, I would say you Know, use empathy as you're. If you're that finance business partner. I always like to tell people if you have a 30 minute meeting with a business leader and you got to get a lot of information, 15 minutes of uh, that meeting can absolutely be, hey, here's what I need from you business leaders. I need you to fill out this template or I need you to answer these questions but leave 15 minutes for them and say what else can I be doing for you? What's really critical that I might be able to help you with and learn from them and offer yourself to, you know, to be that support person to show them it's not a one way street, but it's a true partnership and being a two way street, as much as they should be providing information to you, you should be providing information to them.

Paul Barnhurst: So interesting enough, I've had probably four people, three to five, but we'll say four that have said on the show, when I ask what is the number one soft skill they've said empathy. Do you know what every person who says said that has in common?

Glenn: What's that?

Paul Barnhurst: As I can think of Jack McCullough and a CFO I think was Bonnie Tomi, if I remember right. CFO Aaron Goss has been a divisional GM, kind of a CEO of a company. And uh, all of them have been in the C suite dimension Empathy. I think that's really interesting. It's almost always people that have been up there higher because they appreciate that really being able to put themselves in somebody else's shoe because they got to think strategically. So it's very important the person that's doing the tackling and blocking that they have an appreciation for. And so I've always been a huge fan of that because I think empathy is one of the most important things you can have in FP and A. I think it's a very, very underrated and so I find it interesting. I'd have to look at the list, but I think almost everyone, at least 70, 80% who have said it have been, you know, in that CFO or CEO type chair.

Glenn: And, and by the way, it would have been my answer too. I think you probably asked me that several years ago.

Paul Barnhurst: I think it might have been. And you've, I know you've been up there high as well vp. So it's, it's senior leaders that say it. I was trying to remember, I'm like, I know one or two other people say it. I was wondering if you were one of.

Glenn: Oh, I know, absolutely. In fact I will tell you to the personal story. I started off my career, it was all about finding the right answer. And empathy was something I had no interest in. It was just like, look, I'm here to solve the problem. I was, I. It was just, uh, the technical side of things. Just really, I, I loved it. And what ultimately happened was I was working for, at the time, CFO of Franklin Templeton. And I presented something to him and he said, if you can't figure out how to get. Get other people to move with you, your career is not going to go anywhere. And it was one of those things that was like one of those epiphany moments because I was horrible at empathy. But I went over and I shifted and I, you know, over the next couple of years, I became someone that people look to and you know, ask, what, hey, how do I become a better business partner? I see how you're doing it over here. And now I'm at a point where I even, you know, some of the stuff that I teach at UCLA and other, you know, uh, when I'm speaking at some conferences, I'm talking about empathy all the time. You know, it's one of those things. So even if you're early in your career, you think, oh, God, I got killed by. Everyone talks about empathy. It's just. It's not me, it's not who I am. You can learn it, you could practice it, and you could get better at it. It's not something that you're born with. You can learn.

Paul Barnhurst: And I think it's really important for people to separate. Empathy is not sympathy a hundred percent. It's empathy is striving to understand where someone's coming from. You don't have to agree. In fact, there are many cases where it's. You have to agree not to agree. You have to say, look, I have empathy, but we still have to do these restructuring. I appreciate the difficult situation in. Let's try to minimize the pain. I empathize with what you're going for. But here's what we still have to accomplish.

Glenn: Yeah, that's right. I always look at it as, you know, empathy is trying to see through someone else's eyes, Put yourself truly in their spot, get rid of all your noise and your approach and say, if I was really that person, how would I be approaching it? Sympathy is like when someone's dog dies and you say, oh, I feel really bad for you, and you, you push your feelings on someone else. It's empathy that is the real partnership. That's how you understand somebody. Because you look at it from their perspective, not Euro.

Paul Barnhurst: So if I was to say it's really sad the Oakland A's moved, I

Speaker B: feel for you, that would be sympathy.

Paul Barnhurst: There was no empathy there.

Glenn: No empathy whatsoever. And especially if you. I mean, you could tack on the end of it, but you know what? They seem to have a pretty good hitting team this year. Like that.

Paul Barnhurst: And they're only going to be a few hours away. You can still go to games, Glenn.

Glenn: Ah. Uh, it's. You know what? It's the way of feel so betrayed. Okay, back to FP&A. So along these lines, the next thing that we talked about was the development in the role. How do you go about becoming, you know, going from that analyst to the manager, manager to senior manager, senior manager, director, director to vp. Uh, you know, we talked about some of the things, right, where it's. You gotta be that more strategic partner. You sometimes taking a role in the business could go over, really help. It's bringing in other business data. But there's more to it than that. And sometimes it's. People get very frustrated because they're like, uh, I want this opportunity, but there's no place for me. You know, my company doesn't have a role for that and I can't get promoted. And then you gotta be thinking, am I gonna leave my company? And, you know, how's that gonna go? So, Paul, I'm, uh, gonna. Before I chime in, I wanna hear your thoughts. How do you think about, you know, strategies for people to build and grow their FPA career?

Paul Barnhurst: Career, yeah. So I think first is have a good idea where you want to go and, and then be flexible. We interviewed Shannon Nash, who, her idea was to be the partner route. She had a CPA and a law degree. And then she married a nuclear, uh, engineer in the Navy. I think it was a nuclear engineer submarine. And, uh, everything changed and she ended up being a CFO of a bunch of different companies. Like, embrace those opportunities, Em. So the first thing I remember is today's career. It's not a career ladder. The career ladder, where you just climb it. You're at one company, 30 years. That's dead. That's the reality. Doesn't mean it can't happen to you, but it's just not the path people go now. So that, that's the first thing I say is you're mapping out that strategy. Second, be willing to try new things, know what you're interested in. But then as far as the career goes, remember the first role when you're an analyst, it's about delivering results as an individual. They want to see that you're good, you're a hard worker, that you have that analytical rigor, that you can, you know, communicate with people. And so all they're looking for at that point is that you can deliver on the things they're asking potential. Right when you have that first hire. So if you're able to do that, you start to set yourself apart. But then as you get promoted, then you really need to start thinking about, how do I be more big picture?

Speaker B: How do I be more strategic? What does it mean to be a leader?

Paul Barnhurst: You could think about those in the first role, but you can get to

Speaker B: a second role without having thought about them. I would argue you probably should be

Paul Barnhurst: thinking about them some, but as you move more and more up, it becomes more and more, how can I help others? And management almost becomes as much psychology as it is, how good are you technically?

Glenn: I think you're. You're 100% right. It starts with the technical skills and evolves to leadership.

Paul Barnhurst: Yeah.

Glenn: What I would say to people is, and I think about my favorite quote, and it was the CEO of Charles Schwab, Walt Bettinger said this, and, uh, it just completely resonated with me. He said, leadership isn't about being able to tell other people what to do and how many people you manage. It's about getting people to follow you when they don't have to. That means you could be an analyst and you could pull together other members of your team, people in hr, people in accounting, people in it, people in the business, and you have an idea and you could get them to follow you to go over and do something that would be in the, you know, really help the company move forward. You could be that leader without having people reporting into you. So even if you don't manage anybody today, it doesn't mean you can't be a leader. And the more you start showing that leadership skill, the more. The faster you're going to start moving up that ladder.

Paul Barnhurst: Influencing without authority. I still remember early in my career when I worked for the Navy, I worked on a project where I wasn't

Speaker B: the lead, but I kind of took control of it because the person who was the lead really wasn't. I still remember my boss commenting. She's like, you really helped lead here without having leadership. You showed influence, and that really helped. With my career, I could tell if I'd stayed there, I had some really good opportunities that just didn't make sense to me. And I'm Glad I made the switch more to finance. But it was a huge opener that I showed that initiative and the leadership. And I did that with a couple different projects. One where we had to close a contract, we had to close this big, huge contract. And the contracting officer had a family emergency. And there are two people with 20 years of experience. But the head of the office was coming to me. Cause I had been so involved and was looking to me and we were able to get everything closed. And so I was here, I was the new guy that was basically in a three year internship program being trusted by the head of the department to help get this contract closed and make sure everybody got to work on time. And it was because I showed initiative and influence and understanding beyond just the role. And so doing that can make a huge difference and open up opportunities you wouldn't expect. It's not about direct authority. That's management, that's not leadership.

Glenn: 100%. And a lot of times people, especially early in their career, they, they don't understand the difference. And so, you know, I think it's, you know, try and be that leader. I also kind of look at it as, when you start off and you're an analyst, 100% of your job is really about execution. Then you become that, you know, senior analyst or manager. And now it's about 75% execution, 25% leadership. You get up to that director level and it's like 50, 50. And when you get to the VP level, it's about 80% leadership, 20% execution. And it's, that's the evolution of it. And so you kind of have to recognize how leadership comes into play in order for your career to develop. Another thing that I've always enjoyed having when, whenever I've had employees, uh, you know, I always went through the same exercise with them. And I thought, you know, imagine a graph, right? Just take a straight graph. You got X axis and a Y axis. Now the X axis is going to be time and the Y axis, I like to call stuff very specific. Up in the upper right hand corner, you make a dot and you say, that's where I want to be in 20 years. In the lower left hand corner where the X axis and Y axis intersect, that's where you are today. And so then think about what does 20 years look like? What is it going to be? What level do you want to be at? Uh, where do you want to live? What kind of life do you want to have? You know, do you want to be coaching your, you know, your daughter's you know, soccer team or do you want to be know out mountain biking, you know, every weekend, whatever it happens to be, think about what you want your life to be and then go over and say, and by the way, professional stuff too, about what it would take for you to get there. And then you say, well, if that's where I want to be in 20 years, where do I need to be in 15 in order to achieve 20? Where do I need to be in 10 to get to 15, 5 to get to 10, 2 to get to 5 and what do I need to be doing today to get to 2? And when you start figuring that out, because you have that diagonal line that will go from the lower left to the upper right, you start realizing as you get opportunities, you could ask yourself, is it moving me closer to that ultimate goal of where I want to be? And if the answer is yes, meaning that it either moves diagonal to up to the right, maybe it moves vertically up or to the right and horizontally, fine, you're getting closer. But you want to make sure you're never going to the left or going down. Because if it's taking you away from what you ultimately want to get to, even though it could be an interesting role, it might not be where the right career path for you. And so I always like to go through that. And uh, everyone thinks it seems pretty simple, but trying to figure out what you really ultimately want in 20 years, that's a tough exercise. But I think once you go through really gives you that direction to say, look, I got kind of a funnel of how my career is going to go and I'm comfortable being anywhere in that funnel. But I want to make sure my next role is not going to take me out of it.

Speaker B: I think that's a really good uh, way to look at it. And it is hard. Anytime you have to look and really think about where you want to be, it's a difficult exercise. I often hear finance leaders say, I

Paul Barnhurst: know I need FP&A software, but I

Speaker B: don't even know where to start.

Paul Barnhurst: That's why I created the FPA Software Showcase so you could see top tools in action. This year we're featuring Drivetrain and Una

Speaker B: AI on the planning side.

Paul Barnhurst: And for the first time ever, we're adding two leading AI analyst agents on the market, Concourse and Sapient. These tools are already being deployed at ah, public companies. You will get to see actual demos

Speaker B: without the pressure of a formal sales pitch.

Paul Barnhurst: Ask your questions and compare tools all from the comfort of your chair. Join me on May 21st for the showcase, register for free at, ah, the fpandaguy.com FPA software showcase. That's the fpnaguy.com backslash fpa-software-showcase. See you there.

Glenn: Yep. Okay, so look at that, Paul. We've gone through those pretty quickly. What else are you thinking about? Of, you know, just what's out there in FP&A today that we haven't covered.

Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, I think one area that's really important for people to understand is operational drivers. And you know, I think in planning not everything's going to be operational driver based. I think many m things it makes sense and it ties back to the operations that we talked about. If your model is based on just history or, you know, very simple, ask yourself, how does it help influence the business? So I think an area that's crazy critical as a whole, operational drivers and the other thing that goes with that is people need to realize, and I think we're seeing more and more of that is go beyond point estimates, being able to give ranges and think through scenarios. And the key thing I like to say with the scenario planning, the historic that we've always seen and I built them best case, worst case and base case. That's not a scenario, that's a range of outcomes. A scenario has reasons for why it's different. Okay, we want, you know, this opportunity versus that opportunity or this economic environment versus that and how we're going to behave and how you're going to manage it and being able to have a plan to say, oh, it looks like that recession that, uh, government regulations come. So now we need to look at this scenario and do X. Scenario planning is really helping you look out and figure it out versus sensitivity and outcome. Range of numbers, which are important, but I think we often confuse them. And so I think that's an area that's becoming more and more important. And I think it's an area we really need to elevate in FP and A to truly get to that scenario management versus sensitivity in the best case, base case and worst case that we

Speaker B: all see in school or in every exercise.

Glenn: I 100% agree with you. In fact, I think one of the keys to building good scenario models is really understanding the assumptions and the drivers that are behind it 100%. And so if you go over, one of the things I always like to do when I'm building my models is I like to put all my assumptions in one place. One tab is just my assumptions. And you could put your different cases, your Best case, worst case, most likely case results in there. But identify, you know, what are those key drivers, what are those key assumptions that you're making so that when you go over and you're presenting your data, you could just toggle, you could go and say, well look, if we go over and if we're able to, you know, just as an example, like we're able to collect our receivables five days faster, look at how much additional cash we bring in, right? Those types of things that say, here's how, if you do these couple of things, here's the impact, it's understanding what drives the results, what drives, drives the business and bringing. Not only, and uh, not only is it an internal thing, but what I like to do is include economic factors, right? It's one of those things that when you're going over and you're forecasting your company's growth or you know, your revenue, what's it going to be over the next. Especially if you're doing long term forecasting, right? So you're doing three, five years. Your company operates in a economy for not only the country, but the world, depending on, you know, the size of the company. Include various factors that might have an impact. That's inflation, um, it's inflation going to have an impact? Well, it could. If your company has a lot of debt and it's variable debt now all of a sudden cash flow can't be put back into the business because you're paying your lenders, right? If you go over, if you're looking at, you know, FX movements, should you go over and move a factory overseas so that you are now, you know, operating there rather than just selling those types of things. Those are very strategic things to be thinking about, but they have a huge impact. And so sometimes people think, oh my God, how am I going to forecast the economy? Whatever. Here's the funny thing, you could Google it. You could go out there and google all the major economic indicators that are all over the place and you will get experts just going over and saying here's what the investment, you know, Goldman Sachs thinks this or whatever and you could use those as your starting point for your estimate.

Paul Barnhurst: When you think of external factors, I would argue use the expert's opinion. Unless you are confident it should be different and there's a reason for your business. Kind of like when you're building a, if you're a startup, use all the general assumptions, the benchmarks only change it where it's key to your business, where it's your differentiator that you believe will drive results and then be able to support it. And I think it's similar with the economic. If you're going to go different, you need to be able to explain why you've chose that and defend it. Now you. Because the reality, you're going to be wrong no matter which number you use. So it's the logic, it's defense, it's the planning. Right? As we like to say. George Box always said, all models are wrong, some are useful. The planning is where it becomes useful, not just the numbers or the assumptions.

Glenn: That's right. And in fact I remember I was working at particular company and they're, they're a pretty large company and I was asked to analyze the impact of a marketing campaign and was it going to bring in greater sales and volume for the company? And I came back and I said, no, the most cheap marketing officer, then why are we doing it? And I said, well, first of all, you need to understand what drives the company and what drives spend. Consumer spend is the economy. If the economy is going to be doing well and there's low unemployment, there's GDP growth, people are going to spend more money. If the economy is not doing well, they're going to spend less. And that's going to have a direct implication on how we sell to the public. And so you got to understand sometimes those key economic drivers, but it's also understanding how you put it into context. And to say, you know, I had to, I explained to him, look, if you're not doing this marketing, then your competitor and your competitors are. You might not get the direct impact from that marketing campaign, but down the road you're going to lose that mind share. And that's when you're going to start seeing shifts that are going to really start hurting the company. So sometimes there are larger things at play than just what is in your own company and bring that into your models. Have a perspective. And I think as you present that data to larger higher ups in your company, they will appreciate it because that's oftentimes things that they're thinking about.

Paul Barnhurst: Uh, totally agree. So what other topics do we have? Anything else you want to cover, Glenn, or what are you thinking?

Glenn: You know, the only other thing that I'm thinking about is dinner. Ha ha. Well, you're an hour ahead of me, so it's only 4 o' clock right now for where we're recording, so I'm not quite a little early for you. But um, I am thinking about just overall people management. I've been hearing Stories about just horrible managers and great manager. I mean, I've had some phenomenal managers in my career, and I've had some awful managers in my career. And I think one of the things as you are learning, especially if you're starting out your career, one of the things I would advise is just be observant to how people react to different things. When your manager is leading a meeting, are people paying attention? Are they zoning? Are they looking at their phone? Are they multitasking? And, uh, why, why are they not connecting? And think about when you go to a meeting and everybody's just like, totally on, is hanging on every single word. Why is that? What is that leader? What is that speaker doing to make sure everybody is engaged and just watch other people around? Because at the end of the day, you know, the old adage is you don't leave your job, you leave your manager. And if you want to go over and be a good manager and have people who will be not just loyal to you, but will give you their best effort, you got to find the right ways to motivate them. And it's not about you and your ego. It's about connecting with them and helping them achieve what they want to achieve. And I think that's something else that's just kind of, you know, lacking today. No one's really coaches people on management. Oftentimes you get promoted, but poof, now you're managing people, okay, good luck. And you kind of learn as you go and you make a lot of mistakes. I mean, God knows I made a ton of mistakes when I started off.

Paul Barnhurst: Uh, I didn't make any, but I

Speaker B: don't like to brag about it. I. I'm 100% with you. I was fortunate.

Paul Barnhurst: American Express did a really good job

Speaker B: the first time he came. A people leader of training you about management. There's some good programs. Obviously, I still made plenty of mistakes, but I was really grateful that they had a program couple day long that every new people leader went through in the company.

Glenn: And I think that's great. But a lot of companies don't do that 100% agree.

Speaker B: Most don't.

Glenn: Right. And if you are, uh, you know, more senior, if you're a director or a VP and you're going to promote somebody into a management role for the first time, don't just leave them there. Coach them, make sure you're connecting with them. Just touch base maybe a little more often on or every, you know, make sure in your weekly one on ones that you're going with saying how's it going? What are you struggling with? Uh, where can I help you? Because learning how to manage people is one of the most difficult things, because everybody is different, every environment is different. So it's not like you could go over and, you know, you know, 2 plus 7 equals 11. It doesn't work that way. It's not, you know, because you get. People will react. Sometimes you could say something, somebody, and they love it, and you say the exact same thing in the exact same way to someone else, and they're offended by it. Right. You gotta understand how to read the room and read that body language to make sure you're gonna go over and motivate people in the best way.

Paul Barnhurst: So, you know, I have to share

Speaker B: one thing, and only if you're watching on video will you see this. One of the best. I took a course, you know, situational leadership. And then I've always loved this.

Paul Barnhurst: I'm not good at it.

Speaker B: I often, for the longest time, I wanted to manage everybody the way I wanted to be managed. It was a really hard adjustment for.

Paul Barnhurst: For me.

Speaker B: But this little card here, this was from a Boy Scout training. Funny enough. I've kept it on my desk ever since, all the way back in 20 2009, 2010, right after grad school. And so it says stages of team development and leadership styles.

Paul Barnhurst: And you can't really see it there.

Speaker B: But the idea is across the top, you have, you know, your typical teams forming, storming, norming, performing. We've all heard those terms, right? You're laughing, but what I really like is it says, look, if you have a team that's forming, this also applies to tasks. The leadership style should be, explain, hold hands, help the people. Then as they're going through that storming phase, that shows kind of the leader in a circle, like a first one shows the leader in front of everybody and teaching almost. Second is you're in the middle and everybody's kind of looking at you. You're demonstrating. Then as the team starts to kind of norm and come together, I think this also applies to projects. It's a guiding style. You're guiding the person. And that's where if somebody has strong skills in the area, you can use a little more guiding. But there may be. They don't have experience or whatever, or, you know, in the beginning, they have a willingness, but they don't have the skills. You're going to be explaining a lot more. And then finally, the goal where you want to get, whether it's an individual or team, I think it applies there is. You want to get to the point where you enable people, the best leaders, enable you to be successful, enable the company to be successful, and those go together.

Glenn: I actually took a very similar class when I was at Charles Schwab. It was called situational leadership.

Paul Barnhurst: Yeah, I took that as well at Amex. In addition to this.

Glenn: Yeah. And although I think it's a great way to manage projects and tasks and oftentimes people, uh, sometimes there's a little. They're. They're between stages too, which, which are

Paul Barnhurst: rarely does the framework neatly fit into every situation. I'd argue pretty much never.

Glenn: Right. And sometimes you got to recognize you could be talking to somebody who you should be empowering them on one thing and you should be very hands on and be instructive on something else if it's a new thing that they're learning. And so you don't. You have to recognize that you sometimes have to adjust your own management style. It might be to the same person based on the situation. And that's the other thing I would say is if you're becoming a manager for the first time, be dynamic. Don't just go over and say, this is the way I'm going to do it. Because yes, that might work in some situations, but there'll be others. It won't. And you just got to be flexible. And I think when you think about people you've worked for who have been great leaders, they change who they are and their approach based on the situation and the people they're talking to. Although I will also say, and this is kind of a funny thing because my wife said this to me probably about like 2007. And then my boss, like Charles Schwab said this to me in like 2013. It was the same thing. And they said, I'm the same person whether I'm talking to a CEO or a janitor. And I take the same approach. And I, uh, my response to them was, well, part of it is it takes a lot of energy to be me and I don't have enough energy to be somebody else. But I think it is important to just be consistent with who you are. Don't try and manage up and manage down in different ways. They're all people. Whether you're talking to your CEO, uh, or you're talking to the lowest level person in your company. Everybody puts on their pants one leg at a time. Everybody has things that they're thinking about. Family issues, friends, you, whatever. Everybody's a person. Recognize that. Connect with people on that personal level. Rather than go over and look at their title and treat them differently.

Paul Barnhurst: Well, what I was going to say is there are core principles. Those should stay with you. And the part of that is who you are, your integrity, your ethics, your values. Those should apply regardless of who you're working with. Do you have to manage things differently,

Speaker B: have that situational awareness? Yes. Critically important. I'd say that's an area I've struggled a little bit in my career was the situational awareness. And it's critical if you want to move up in management. But don't mistake situational awareness for being a chameleon and changing who you are for the situation. There's a difference and people will notice it quickly.

Glenn: Think about what those core attributes are. You know, the integrity, creativity, you know, those types of being the strong communicator, those types of things. And just be true to yourself. At the end of the day, if you are good at what you do, whatever you do, you will be successful a hundred percent.

Paul Barnhurst: And you, uh, know I favor when you talk about core attributes like ethics.

Speaker B: As an example, I still remember in school I was in a class and we were asked to write down what's the ethical line we will not cross? And I looked over and I happened to see one of the students and he wrote down will not steal from poor people. And I was like, okay, how do you define poor people?

Paul Barnhurst: Like that's a really slippery slope.

Speaker B: Define who you are and do your best to stick with it. Like I'm not gonna, you know, put through journal entries that don't have all the supports or whatever it might be. I'm not gonna cross certain lines, don't change them for situations. Decide where your, your values are and hold to the them. And that will guide you in your career.

Glenn: Yep. And it will also tell you if you're in the wrong situation.

Speaker B: Mhm. You'll know. I, you know, there's the newspaper test. There's lots of different ways and different things within that and they're not all legal issues. There are lots of ethical gray areas where you have to decide what you're comfortable with.

Glenn: Yeah, absolutely. And there's a lot of what we do in FP and a right, we're trying to predict the future. There's not always a right and wrong.

Speaker B: Correct.

Glenn: You're going to be in a range somewhere. So you want to have that flexibility, but you want to have the integrity in your data, in your models, in your analysis that says, look, there are certain things that hold true. We sell this to a customer, this is the revenue we're going to get. I'm not all of a sudden going to triple the price and think we're not going to have any impact on volume for what we're selling. You got to have that integrity that says this is still grounded in reality.

Speaker B: You have to be able to say, look, that plan was, as I heard it once said, was sprinkled with rainbows and unicorns. It's not achievable, and here's why. We've all had to submit some numbers that sometimes we don't believe are achievable. But your job is to express the concern and then submit the numbers. That's not an ethical situation where, hey, you're putting in a journal entry that you shouldn't be or whatever.

Paul Barnhurst: Those are different.

Speaker B: These are judgment calls. Your job is to share your judgment. And then sometimes you're going to put

Paul Barnhurst: in a number that you don't believe will happen.

Speaker B: But your job is to help the business strive to achieve it and continue to raise those flags when it becomes unachievable. But not from a, uh. Hey, look at you. Idiot.

Paul Barnhurst: I was right.

Speaker B: From a.

Paul Barnhurst: We're short.

Speaker B: Here are some approaches we think can help us. This didn't turn out as we planned. Still, be a team player. Smug. Privately, if you want. Fine.

Paul Barnhurst: We've all done it a little bit. Glenn's laughing because we've all done a little bit.

Speaker B: Like told you in the first place,

Paul Barnhurst: this was a bad idea.

Speaker B: I wish you would have listened to me. That's not what they want to hear.

Glenn: Of course not, because you got to, uh, again, that empathy. You got to put yourself in there at spy. I would also say you're going to err on the side of being transparent.

Paul Barnhurst: 100%. Couldn't agree more.

Glenn: Share the detail. Hey, by the way, here's why I think this thing is risky. Because if we miss this thing, this whole thing blows up. Share, uh, that information. I could tell you from not only someone who has had data presented to me, but when I presented it to boards, to executives or whatever, they appreciate that because now you're looking out for them to make sure that they have the best understanding of what you're providing them.

Paul Barnhurst: Yeah. Transparency is huge.

Glenn: All right. Well, you know, Paul, this has been fun. I mean, our State of the Union covered, um, pretty much everything out there. I mean, FP and A covers so much anyway, but. And we didn't even touch on the technology side, which is kind of amazing.

Paul Barnhurst: No, we didn't touch on technology, sales commissions, or a few other things, but we had a good conversation.

Glenn: Absolutely. Uh, I mean, if nothing else, I hope that for those people who are listening to this, you know, reflect on your career, where you're at, what's going on, whether you're looking for a new job, you're looking to get promoted, you just want to gain skills. Skills. I think there are a lot of really great tips in here that we've gone over. Certainly Paul and I, uh, we're old enough that we've had a long enough career that we've kind of seen and done a lot of things, learn from our experiences, and I think that's kind of why we wanted to do this.

Paul Barnhurst: Yep. So, you know, we'll close with this. We'd love to hear from you, send any questions, comments you have. We appreciate you joining and just take ownership of your career. FP&A is a great place to be. We can all make a difference. So I'd say take ownership of your career. Go make a difference and have empathy for others. And so we'll end with that. And thank you again, Glenn. Always a pleasure to have you on.

Glenn: I appreciate it. It's been great. Thanks, Paul.

Speaker B: Alrighty.

Paul Barnhurst: And that's a wrap. That's it for Today's episode of FP&A Unlocked. If you enjoy FPA Unlocked, please take a moment to leave a five star rating and review. It's the best way to Support the the FPA Guy and help more FPA professionals discover the show. Remember, you can earn CPE credit for this episode by visiting earmarkcpe.com, downloading the app and completing the quiz. If you need continuing education credits for the FPAC certification, complete the quiz and reach out to me directly. Thanks for listening. I'm Paul Barn Hurst, the FPA guy, and I'll see you next time.