172 - Fostering Teamwork Between People and Machines in Modern Service Businesses - Shoko Taka and Jaime Garcia

Shoko Takahashi: I can do this job so long is of course, first of all I, I trust my vision and then so therefore that I still keep the same vision as that I had in 10 years ago. And then that's one thing that I have. But, uh, the another thing is, well, maybe I'm becoming older, but I started trust others.

Nancy Nash: Our featured speakers today are the co founders of Incuban Social Robotics Laboratories, Shoko and Jaime. It's a great pleasure to have you returning as our featured guest today. Thank you so much for taking this time to share this leg of your journey with us.

Shoko Takahashi: Thank you very much, Nancy and Spencer, and thank you for this opportunity. Um, my name is Shoko Takahashi, founder of Incubion.

Jaime Garcia: Thank you everyone. Like, it's a pleasure to be here again. And uh, yeah, Jaime Garcia, here we are in Japan right now and yeah, let's get started.

Nancy Nash: Well, the pleasure is all ours. I know since we last spoke, um, I understand that Jaime's moved into a role with a different company, but still supports Incubon pro bono. Can you tell us about that decision and how the transition was for each of you and what it meant for the company?

Jaime Garcia: Hmm. M. That's very interesting. So we have been working together with Shoko since we actually met after the bootcamp. And uh, like we have has always like different worlds. Like she's coming from a robot, uh, world like, like really passionate about robotics and how robots impact society and, um, coming from the design world. So I'm happy to dive in into topics and start collaborating to see what can make projects or can make things move forward. And in that idea, what I tried to do was kind of like together with another partners, we start thinking in this idea of having a design studio to support startups and companies like Incubion, like Sho Code's project, in order to just, uh, give that extra energy and give that extra push to make things, uh, happen. So in parallel, when we were working together with Shoe on, Incubion is like. But, well, I think, uh, the amount of design and the amount of ideas that we can provide to Incubian, it becomes like a seed to start helping other startups as well, other founders. And that's why meanwhile partners start happening. So it's kind of like actually talking with my partner on Meanwhile, it kind of happened in parallel. Like at the same time we were having the experience within Qubian, we started realizing these are pain points that not only happens to a startup like Incubium, but it's also happened with other startups. So it's very important to probably start collaborating and start talking and start making that happen.

Shoko Takahashi: Yeah, for our side from Incubion, uh what we are doing is supporting our uh companies to introduce new uh service robot robots are used in service applications and then that market is still, I would say still emerging even in Japan that we have uh, many. I mean since the coronavirus that the people are aware of the value of using robots. I mean sometimes robots are more uh. Better. I mean in terms of not transmitting the vials for example. And so therefore we have uh a numbers of the chain ah restaurants introducing uh the serving robots and then the cleaning robots for the shopping mall and so on are kind of uh getting to be replaced to do the robots. However still that ah as a whole market the numbers of introduction of the uh robots to uh new facility, new site is um, not unstable and has a huge market. And then moreover that what we are supporting is that the process that how the users identify the necessity of robots and then the requirements for robots and then we are uh helping users to understand and then communicate to the robot providers and those who are aware of the necessity of our service is still I mean not so many. So therefore that uh. We are kind of struggling to approaching to the market. And so therefore that even for us, for me that uh. The approach that the Hami and I working together is kind of. I mean the balance because I sometimes have to focus on the uh, marketing and the cells and then so therefore that sometimes design work is well something that I have to do parallelly. And so I uh think that how that collaboration works better is in the way that we are. I mean working separately.

Host: Yeah, that's really great how you've sort of had that experience where you, you work together early on and then as, as it's growing you sort of separated but you're still working together and supporting each other. I think that's really really fabulous. Now I understand you're both still ob. Passionate about supporting the introduction of robots to the service applications. Can you tell us a little bit about how you came to be a part of supporting several robot trials at the last Osaka Kansai? I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. World Expo.

Shoko Takahashi: Oh, so sorry that I, I heard you a bit chubby but you uh, asking us about the, the project in Expo?

Host: Uh yeah, the Osaka Kansai World Expo.

Jaime Garcia: Yeah, I guess about the World Expo.

Shoko Takahashi: Okay, good, good. So uh, in the process. Well we've been supporting multiple projects so far but what we found is I mean uh, in general that the people who wants to start seeking a robot as their opportunity in their business uh has a information gap between the what robot can. Between the robot providers who knows well about what robot can actually support. And then in order to minimize the gap the knowledge gap we uh, propose in most of the cases that the trial trial in the actual site and in the trial the bringing the robot into the actual site and then to see how it works is uh very instantly provoked the understandings of robot in both sides. So from the user side can see what the limitation was robot and then what the things that human has to help robot to work properly. And then from the developer side I mean they understand what is the restriction surrounded by the specific application that their customers are finding them. So therefore that we uh, in the course of our business that we do uh many uh trial support of robot introduction and in the uh context that we are selected as a uh commission supervisor of the Osaka Kansai Expo that happened in the uh last April until October in Osaka Japan. And the project itself is called the uh Robot Experience. And then that is uh aiming to provide the expo site the whole. The common space in Expo as a testbed for the robots who wants to do trials. So that we organized uh from uh about 60 robots from the 24 companies or the universities and then arranging that the users environment and robots so that it can perform in a certain scenario that can actually help and support uh while interacting with human being and then support the exploration in general. Anything to add Jaime?

Jaime Garcia: Yeah, I think just probably to start connecting the dots. I think last time we met we were having that big question of like are robots going to take our jobs? Are Robo going to be properly integrated in our society? So how are they going to work with us? How are they going to collaborate? And then Covid was happening. So it's like I cannot help this person directly. So I'm um, kind of like forced uh to have an uh, extra robot help in order to fulfill my task. And then it was the question like the answer like it's not that I want or I don't want. It's actually it's a need uh right now. So the way, the, the way to ask the question is not like should I or should I not? But it's like how would I do it? And then at that time Shokon I but in Cubion got the, the. The opportunity to collaborate into this idea of robot trials. So it's actually bringing the robot to a group of people, to a community of people who wants to know more about the robot who Wants to know how can it be beneficial what they can do, what they cannot do and how can the places in different environments, in different situations and then through like throughout that experience, like for example robo trials because a company has developed a robot that wants to show it in an exhibition, uh, show for example or robot trial because there is a region in Japan that is interested in promoting robot implementation into their different industries. So that's a different level. And through that experience it came, it happens. Osaka Expo in Cubion already had a lot of background experience on this field. So it was kind of like uh, the familiar ah, evolution of the idea of robot literacy, robot trials and how to interact well human robot interaction.

Nancy Nash: Thanks for elaborating on that. It's such an exciting time. I feel like for robotics like you're saying it's more of a need. It's you know some of that fear I think has been reduced. Um, I will still say like there are some videos that I feel like are on the ridiculous side you know, springing up showing humanoid robots doing everything from dancing to loading a dishwasher. And I think you know much of this is just for entertainment. But what do you both see as like the best case uses for modern day robots and humanoid robots? I guess too because I see so many humanoid robot videos.

Shoko Takahashi: These are the most popular questions that we get in recently and especially that, I mean that every week that you can find that new robots are doing something that uh, totally new and then it's, I mean it's all well done. So thanks to the evolution of the AI And AI is also helping the robot development as well. So it really reduces the amount of times that requires to let robot learn how to move in certain movement. So that evolution is really the speedy. And then how that would help in and then how that would help our lives is I see two different perspectives and then one is aside of humanoid robots. But uh, sorry that uh, humanoid robots that is the driven by the AI evolution has a limitation about I mean it. AI is good at evolving their new movements instantly and from the input that it gets however that it's not really good at repeating the same tasks in the same exactly same precision and speed unlike the uh, industrial robots. So it's the human imagine um, that humanoid robot is like a newbie for your company. That kind of thing as a capability can do anything like you however that you have to teach them properly and then you cannot expect they are uh, doing the same things in the same quality. I mean when I say in quality means that the very, very precise precision. And so therefore that um, for robots like humanoid robots are good at flexibility but not really good at the quality uh, standards. And on the other side the traditional types of robot that is well supported by some kind of AI, however that is basically based on rule based movements is actually more reliable. I mean that you don't you want reliable robots for the infrastructure, uh, inspection or the uh, running the same uh, facility in the same quality like the energy power plants for example. I mean, so therefore, I mean there are two different ways that the uh, robots are going to be in the future and in the age of AI.

Jaime Garcia: Yeah. So um, it is very interesting and this is kind of like our weekly discussion with Shoko, like this case should be solved by a robot. Should a robot make sense in this scenario or definitely the industries or the clients are completely crazy and they just want to bring a robot for the sake of having a robot. So this is kind of like a day to day discussion with Shoko. But let's just put it into an example like coming from the design field and right now even more I am pretty much supporting human behavior and pretty much supporting human to human interaction. However, a robot is a non ah, human entity that is part of the society right now. So we need to start bringing it in and how we can collaborate with it. And just to put you an example, like for example I'm at home and I have a table full of 50 apples. Well full of apples, I don't know how many. And my mom is waiting, my mom and my grandma is waiting for me to make an ah, apple pie. So which task would I like to take? Counting the apples or making the apple pie with my grandma? So counting the apple is something that anyone, anything could do. But having the experience of baking a pie with my grandma is something that I would probably not like to miss. So that task of counting the apples could be for a robot, could be for uh, a uh, camera with an AI that is detecting how many apples are on the table right now and then feedback to my phone. For example, baking the apple pie with my family with my grandma is like one in a lifetime probably or something that you don't want to miss. That's the experience that should be human to human.

Shoko Takahashi: Yeah, I mean it's a great example that, I mean you mentioned about the camera on the light, uh, for robots counting the apple properly. So I just need to mention that either it's a humanoid robot or the other shape of robots, what we are always focusing on is robot itself cannot change Your world unless that you change. So that what we are focusing on, we call it uh, robot experience design. And then robot experience design means. I mean the bringing robot into your world requires you to change your behavior and then also that you have to rethink about your environment because your environment are designed only for humans. However that what we have to cope with is the environment that human and robots are working together comfortably and then to some extent so that human can trust what robot wants work properly. And so therefore the adjustment infrastructure or the for example that you need ah, a kind of rail so that the camera can sustain the angle for example or the proper light lighting so that the camera can detect the color properly. I mean all of these things needs to be discussed however that it's easily be forgotten for the people who just fascinated by the robot technology and then fascinated by what Robo can do for us. But uh, actually actual implementation requires us to think about how we can change our behavior and environment and also that our societal rules so that we can accommodate robot. So that's the way the Incubians are actually focusing on and then trying to uh, promote the recognition for that.

Host: Thank you so much guys. Really appreciated you guys talking through that. I think it's a fascinating time for robotics in a lot of ways. But I do think you're absolutely right that people don't understand the environment and behavioral changes necessary to really utilize robotics in a lot of contexts now. But I do think this is something that uh, based on my understanding Japan has sort of done a lot more than or has more understanding of than most other nations. And obviously you.

Shoko Takahashi: Have very risk averse culture. And so therefore that I mean if you've ever been come to Japan and uh, we are kind of the country of hospitality and then how much you can guess to what the others are expecting is somehow a kind of the value. And then that prevented us to do trial I mean so long in history. Uh, because the people are expecting perfection for any robots or the any. Well, especially for the services for the humans. So uh, it was a hard obstacle for the service robots to get into the actual market. Uh, on the other side the good thing is that because that uh, people are kind of expecting so therefore that it's also what to say. Uh, we have uh. I mean a lot of the companies are kind of trying to understand the culture behavior and then how to input that into robots for example. And also thanks to those Covid, I mean the COVID changed our behaviors very much so therefore that people are kind of accustomed to the Robot has certain limitation. And so therefore there's certain things that we have to change on our side. So I mean in that way that yes we have a culture and also more culturally that we have uh, so many cartoons there are uh, uh, topics of the robots. And then so that also helps and especially for the, when I talk to, I mean this, talk about this topic to Japanese and then the people who's coming from outside side of Japan that the particular difference is that there's so much talk about human labor is replaced by the uh, robots fear. I mean when I talk with the people outside of Japan, however in Japan that what we are facing is right now that the labor population is going to be half of now in 2050. 2050 and then still the peoples are living longer. So therefore the number of people as a recipient of the service isn't changed. So that means that the human uh, labor has to do double work. So if you're working in eight hours a day, you have to work 16 hours a day unless you decline the quality of work, quality of service. So therefore that for us it's a kind of really pressing moment that unless that we uh, somehow delegate some tasks to the robot, I mean that we have to expect the tomorrow is always worse than today. So their urgency is here is more oppressing compared to the, I mean almost any other role. So that also changed uh, how the people are, I mean trying to accept the robots limitation and then try to integrate robots into our society. I mean that's maybe uh, one factor for that.

Host: Yeah, absolutely. I mean I don't have a great understanding of sort of the like population dynamics in Japan. But I've heard that this is something that a number of countries are needing to, to really address imminently. And so it's something that I think is probably a huge factor that I hadn't realized. So thank you very much for raising that. I was going to ask a little bit about what you guys see as sort of in your ideal, you know, what are your concerns in regards to the next five to 10 years of the industry? What are the things that you want to see come up that you think would be valuable for sort of society and then what are the things that you think maybe are the biggest barriers to those development?

Shoko Takahashi: I uh, me.

Jaime Garcia: Okay, I let you, I give you some time to think about it. I think from my side and I think also we have been bringing this into the discussion within Cuban is that right now because many people around the world are interested in robots, many industries or many clients or many Companies are looking for the robot that they can fix this situation to make money out of it. So the investment on a robot is really high to make robots that solve every small problem that the society needs. So when company builds uh, a robot the robot has to solve the problems for like a big range of problems. So it might not be very accurate, it might not solve it in the best specificity possible. So the big challenge is to actually promote situations where a uh, robot would be not necessarily big win economically but a big win for society. Like I don't know, this is probably something that I, that I start thinking and ah, Shoko might follow or might be against. But for example in the medical industry if there is a small population with a certain physical disability that a robot might be really helpful. But for the industry it doesn't represent a uh, big roi. So that's a big question like should companies do it or not? And that's probably a big issue right now. Like service robots are. Everyone is looking for a service robot. Doesn't matter what they do. I want my company to say I have a uh, service robot. But service robots are not the only ones that the society is needing.

Shoko Takahashi: Yeah, I mean thank you Jaime that I was just going to talk about that similar topic. So I mean like he said that uh, these are the paradox in service robots. So the robot providers are driven by the context of the manufacturing manufacturer. So if they produce the same model at ah, most of the numbers and then those models are kind of easy to be customized to each cases. I mean that's the best case for the robot providers because I mean they don't have to customize everything. However, if you think of the service industries, service industry uh, owners are competing each other to differentiate these services. So you cannot copy the same service as your competitor because I mean then the customer won't come to you. So that's the core of service industry. Service has to be differentiated in order to compete each other. So how these two different industries can merge into it is in question. So uh, if the robot providers are still, I mean they keep doing the same business model as uh, and also the same the business interest. I mean that is the popular trend now. Like they maximize the same models at most and then that what Jaime just talked would happen. So the robots are always using the same industry like I said the chain restaurants and even in the service. However the more needs for service robots might be in their specific medical support or in agriculture. That is also the hard uh industry for service robots. And then the other industries as well and then those are the industries that might be most be helped by the robot. However that no one is going to provide those the solutions because it's really hard area to monetize it in the long run. So that is a kind of challenge. And then one uh, thing that can tackle is well uh. From the service side I mean they can. What they can change is like I said that their operation behavior and also their environment. For example in Japan in agriculture the numbers of the uh laborers are I mean the declining belly speedy. So therefore that we soon going to have the uh hood places. So therefore that I mean they are really keen to introduce robot in order to support that. And then what they're doing is I mean they are trying to change the shape of farm so that they can accept more robot easily. So unlike the very complex shape of uh, for example the orchard. And then they try to plant that in the robot boundary way so that it can have certain uh, intervals uh where the robot uh probably can go through easily. So in that way that the service providers can change their environment and uh behavior so that they let robots work better. I mean that's the one way that will mitigate the gap.

Jaime Garcia: I think, I think one more thing too Adam. Probably just start giving some advertisement to Incubion and it's like one thing that is happening and it will be uh, like a future development is like we are starting cubium with the promise of building robot literacy. Now some people get to know a little bit more about robots. It's kind of like a trendy to have a robot, to have a robot in my industry. Now the next step is like we need to put the conversation to another level to the level of everyone now knows what a robot is, everyone knows what a robot does. Now you are able to pick the robot that is accurate, that is the best for your needs. So I think in the future and what we are working with in kubernetes uh is to increase that uh, like enhance that conversation. Give you enough tools for you to discern which robot could be the best one for the task that you are needing or for the industry that you are working on. And uh. Which robot is completely out of the question.

Shoko Takahashi: Exactly. Thank you Jaime for mentioning that. Because that we see that there are numbers of robots out there right now thanks to the robot providers. However there's still the huge information gap. So uh, the people who actually need robot solution cannot access to the information. What kind of robots, what kind of technologies are available for them. So therefore in order to help them and Empower them to understand the variety of robots and understand what robots can do. I mean what we uh, developed Ah, in 23 is the robot at the uh, catalog taxonomy, uh, of the robot use cases in variety of industries so that we have uh, the website that uh, include uh, about 800 of the robots and robot use cases on there and so that the people can easily see and check intuitively with the video or the photo. And then what robot is now currently working in what kind of situation, by whom, and then who's actually making that, that specific robot and then who's actually helping to integrate the robot into that site? I mean those information should be available for the people who's looking for the robot solution. So that's what we were working on and then now we are moving on to the next step. Like Jaime just said, I mean the next step is the robot information is available for those who needs it and then how we can tell them to think about that. What is the need in our cases, in my case, in my situation, ah, to let robots do some of our work and then we are hoping to develop some of the uh, learning system or the learning framework so that everyone can easily go into the discussion of what is the requirements for us to think of roboticization.

Nancy Nash: Yeah, thank you both for collaborating in the explanation too. And I really appreciate, you know, some of the environmental adaptations that are already happening, like you said in farming. That's fascinating. And then also talking about like that product market fit, it honestly made me think about how some people fall in love with like the look of a vehicle, but they actually need it for practical purposes. And you know, just to say like, I need a truck, like you need a truck to do what, what are you going to be moving, like how much weight, how fast? Like I'm sure that there's a lot more to think about with a robot, but it makes a whole lot of sense that you would need someone to consult about that. I know you mentioned it earlier, um, you know, the role of AI in robotics, but how do you envision that role evolving in maybe the next five years or so?

Shoko Takahashi: That's a tough question. Well, I have one, well, optimistic view and a uh, dystopian view of what would happen with AI. And so compared to the AI and the digital technology, robot is physical. And so therefore there are so many restrictions, so many limitations. So therefore the robot can do always less than what humans is expecting. So I think that how much, well for example humanoid robot will evolve, I think that basically that is a situation and, but if you change the view, of course, I mean the robot can work 24 hours, 65. So I mean in that way it's more exceeding the human being here in the way as well. But anyway, so the optimistic the view is if we have the enough retail city, how to collaborate with robot and then how to select what we delegate robots to do. And then I mean that our. Of course our world, our society, our living is much easier however on the other side that I wonder that if robot become more disposable. So let's say that there is so many human little robots. I mean, and then uh, uh, from China and then now it's becoming more cheaper and cheaper. And then uh, even though it can do um, certain unlimited uh, tasks so if it becomes more affordable and then everyone uh, uh, start using it even though that can do things only the uh, limited tasks like the sweeping or the removing things, I mean from one place to another. And then so in those situations that we can expect those robots are working, for example that where humans do not want to work, like the garbage station or the high hazardous area and then so on. And then for those places, I mean that is a workplace, ah, for robots, the humanoid robots for example, in that way that, I mean that we can reuse human robot robots because I mean they don't complain. I mean we don't have to uh, care about the hazard because I mean they are not life. So therefore, I mean that they can be. I mean that if that brokes, I mean you just let them go to the trustbox for example and then I mean that could happen. Because why we do use robot is that we think those rocks are not for humans, but robots. But that also at the same time, uh, devalue those the value of the task and then we kind of become a very cruel human being that well, can easily dispose these robots or entities. And then it's very thin line between that we dispose of robots and then we dispose those who working in that kind of job. Because we are so cruel. It transformed you.

Jaime Garcia: Thank you.

Host: Uh, I hope you don't go too far down that road.

Jaime Garcia: Jaime, what are your thoughts? So I've been building up on this idea that I used to work before in printing, in printers, designing printers. And we have this line saying this is a human task and this is an automated task. So every time we go through the consumer journey, we evaluate can this be automated? This must be human. So we kind of like classify tasks into those two. Now there was a third level that was the task doesn't exist. So for example putting paper into a printer right now or in the past was a very human task. Then the evolution of that was to put the paper in the printer and the printer decide when to put it for the job that you are going to print. So it's automated task. Now the best solution for that task will be you don't need to think about paper in the printer. So it's like I completely eliminated that step and that's what AI is giving us, is eliminating the step. However this is where we are right now. There are probably less and less steps for us to do with the SKUs. As I mentioned the apple pie example with the SKUs that you will use time smartly to have more human to human interaction which probably is not happening. So now we need to reevaluate what is the next step after that. And I think I'm also a bit pessimistic in Choco as well. However um, from the design point of view and what I'm pushing along is to there are still equations uh, in our world right now that cannot be solved by a robot, cannot be solved by an AI. So the only way to work on that is to give them visibility. Like for example uh, there is a lot of discrimination, there is a lot of uh, intense equity. There is a lot of uh, non empty for example those from the design point of view like from our point of view like the small thing that we can do is just give them visibility and start thinking how we can solve it. So the next step for AI I guess is how to use those tools to give visibility to the ones uh, that don't have visibility and make it a little bit more critical. Like set up a position of, of uh criticality about like this is what you were spending your time and effort doing and this is actually what should be the magnifying glass on. Because this is something that is actually happening while you are wasting or using your time thinking in other uh things.

Shoko Takahashi: If I would add. I mean there would be a uh huge. I mean that because you said that in next five years it's going to be. I mean the gap is widening probably. I mean like the industries that can be easy, the robots are installed and uh. Once that is actually there's a huge needs. However the robots are. I mean for robots it's hard to be used in. So in the end it will end up to the, I mean that uh, in, in any industry is the robot. I mean you can see robots but at first, I mean there's going to be a Huge gap in between those industries. Uh, I think absolutely.

Host: I think it's going to be something that we see happening more and more of these industries that are getting really automated and the ones that sort of not getting automated to nearly the same degree. I wanted to take the talk a little bit of a twist away from the technical and to the social team. You guys have worked together for eight years I think earlier, which is awesome. What do you recommend or what do you see as like sort of the key to being able to work with someone for these sort of long periods of time? And then what do you think would be your recommendations for young entrepreneurs for like how they pick out people that they would want to work with with a long term view?

Shoko Takahashi: Yeah, it's uh, of course it's. I mean that I really had, I mean good fortune to know. I mean so. But if I would that it generalized, I think. I don't know. I mean it's really cliche, but it's fast. And then what I always appreciate about the hymen support and his advice is I uh, mean well, incubion has not been always in good days. I mean that we have really the financial crisis, the timings and so on. And then so therefore that I. So in those days I felt bad to uh, my employees and of course Hymi as a collaborator because that I do not. I tend to thought I do not perform well. Uh, even though that I'm receiving these support. Um, but Jaime always says, I mean don't hesitate to ask me to advise and so on. And that's really, I mean supporting helping me to. Because I mean those days that was. I'm not really in good mood. I mean I tend not to ask something to someone and or that mean push myself to do more. So but I mean that is really helping me a lot. And so that really I appreciate it. Thank you.

Jaime Garcia: Jaime, now that you mentioned not in a good mood, that that's not true. But again actually that's the very important thing. And um, I think we talk with shock a lot about that. If we have a two hours meeting, a ah, two hours call and one hour and 40 minutes we have been discussing to each other that we really hate each other for being completely opposite. Like oh my God, why on earth do you think that's the way to go? I don't follow you. The 20 minutes later, the 10 minutes after like very cool conversation. Thank you so much. It has been so helpful. Let's continue tomorrow. And um, that's very important. That's very important. Because it's not really easy to find a person that you can have a really high discussion without, like, without getting too personal, but to the point that actually you feel that it's getting personal, but it's just like, like it's part of that environment that like I feel so free to share my opinion and to share my feedback that I, I know that my partner is there to listen to, even put only fight back because that's also what I'm expecting to say. Like this is not right and these are the reasons. So I think that is very important. And for that you probably need, you just need to do a lot of experience to find that fit. Like probably, I don't know, like there was like failing fast, but you also need to failing fast with your partners and your teams. Because the more projects you do, the more you will notice that the people that you are working with will follow and the people you are working with are able to support or are able to advise if you are actually going in the wrong direction. That's one thing. And then the second thing is also from the very beginning you try to build the picture that is common to everyone in your team. Because if you build something that is a little bit blur, everyone has a different opinion of that direction. And then when you reach a certain milestone for you as a success, but for the rest of your team, like, oh, I thought that was not what we are aiming at. So if everything is not painted clearly from the beginning, it's really hard to convince and it's really hard to guide.

Nancy Nash: I really appreciate your clarity on both of those points, Jaime, because unfortunately we do know people that have started working on a project together and split off or people that have gone through several different co founders and finding someone that you can be honest with. And like you said, it's personal, but it's not personal. It's personal because you both really care. But it's not personal because you're saying the honest truth because you care. And yeah, I hear you both loud and clear on that one. Um, I wanted to just read a question aloud that Carlos shared. He said, I wonder how much a robot could cost. I guess it may change on the task, but are they affordable? Just curious on that and just slightly adding on to that. I might ask, you know, what world markets do you think will be ready for affordable robots next?

Shoko Takahashi: So there's a statistics about the world service robotics market and then the, I mean that statistics including drones as well. So therefore actually the drone is the uh, largest, uh, portion of the market. Size because it's easy and then it has easily adapted to the different application. Not only just shooting but inspection and uh rescue and so on. So the drones are the. Are going to be the most affordable uh things and because it's also the cheap like you can buy drone uh from the thousand dollars or much cheaper sometimes and then that works properly depending on the application. And in terms of the other robots uh the cleaning robots industries, I mean the professional cleaning robot industries are also I mean has a uh huge portion of it of course. I mean that if you have ever used Rimbar, I mean the so uh. Domestic cleaning uh uh robots are also I mean it has a huge industry as well. But I mean those are kind of cheaper. So therefore ah the market size of course that the business B2B market is I mean needs to be going up and then those uh cleaning robots are now I mean becoming cheaper like the. I think that you can get from the $2,000 or the more. And then now that I mean these days the robots are not. Not provided as the purchasing deal but uh robot as a service like I mean the sars, I mean that we call it raas but robot as a service is becoming more popular. So therefore I mean that if you pay the uh thousand dollars subscription ah monthly and then you can get the whole services. So not only just having the robot use during the time but I mean that when some maintenance is needed, I mean you can have a replaced ones and then you can have always a support team on your side not on your side but a remote uh monitoring team for the robot status I mean and so on. So it's becoming cheaper in those the uh professional cleaning robots industries. And then that the same business model is coming into the security robot industries. Uh the security robots are actually. It has to be more durable and big and so strong. So therefore it's a bit more expensive than the cleaning robot. But of course even prevening robot has a bit different size and depending on how many the acres that it should go. And then of course the size is different so uh. The cost is. I mean the smallest ones ah are like 2000 but I mean it's more like the uh. Sometimes it's million. Yeah. And yeah so in terms of the market that the most growing markets are going to be the security robots and the uh cleaning robots and the next uh coming the field that I see I'm expecting is an inspection robot. So inspection is a kind of uh, a patrolling robot. And then now there I mean that in Japan that we have A trial of the data center uh inspection robots because the data centers are I mean the environmentally it's flooded and really uh robot friendly uh environment it has only the shelves and the servers and the air conditioning is really uh. Always on and then I mean during those aisles and the robots are moving and then shooting the status lamp in each section and then uh. Dispatching um uh transform transmitting those uh information to the remote uh monitoring centers. So that's going to be the another I mean big market I expect if I answer your question properly. Nathi, thank you very much.

Host: I think it's a fascinating question about like where robotics is going to go next. If you read the news and some of it's particularly exaggeratory maybe robots coming for everyone's jobs. But I think it's. There are certain, there's certain spaces that makes a lot more sense for everybody sort of to get into which I think will be really interesting. We like to wrap up with a particular question. I want you to interpret it however makes the most sense to you. But the question is what words of wisdom or piece of advice do you want to leave us with today?

Jaime Garcia: Keep fighting. It's getting tough out there.

Shoko Takahashi: I don't know. I. One reason why I always find me I mean so long and I can do this job so long is of course that first of all I. I trust my vision and then so therefore that I I still keep the same vision as that I had in 10 years ago. And then that's one thing that I have but uh. The another thing is well maybe I'm becoming older but I started trust others more. It's really I mean that interesting to say but I believed that I did my best when I younger and now that I have more um different responsibility in families and so therefore that I cannot put 100% of my effort to only to this and then I see that is the same for everyone and then that is a life and then that is the society uh that is a life that we live and then so therefore that how can optimize myself to. This is the way how I should approach to Even you are in startups um uh. Approach to uh your job. So and then that makes me feel much easier and then easier to get along with. You can easily rely on someone and asking help, asking support and I think that's one thing that I would recommend maybe I mean there's someone can do that better than me. But I wasn't good at that at the time that I started this.

Jaime Garcia: So last week I was having a Conversation with other group. And it's like, I'm, um, building up this idea. I don't know how many of you swim and. Or how many of you surface, but I'm building on this idea that you need to learn in life, in design, in research, in robotics. You need to learn push, pull, and glide. You need to learn where you have to push when you need to pull and when you just need to glide. Like, push when you have a very strong idea and you actually need to convince your client or your market or your industry that your idea makes sense. Pull when you don't know where this is going and you actually need to start getting information from your client or from your industry to understand where your next step is. And glide when the market is so saturated that you just need to probably go with the flow, learn and find some insights that will inspire you to move next. So I'm, um, building on this. I don't know, at some point I might write something about that. Because it's, it's. It makes sense, right?

Nancy Nash: It completely makes sense. Uh, yeah. I do too. Yeah. Thank you both. Great answers from you both. We really appreciate it. Well, thank you for taking so much time with us today. We really appreciate everything you shared with us and taught us.

Shoko Takahashi: Thank you for these opportunities.

Nancy Nash: Definitely the pleasure is ours. If, uh, people would like to learn more about your work and get in touch with you, how would you prepare? Prefer that they do that.

Jaime Garcia: In the last introduction that I put on here, on, on this call, I put the website opencubian. I think it's accessible from there especially I will include Robot ata. Uh, go and check it out. Go and explore Robot ata, uh, get inspired by a lot of robots. And of course I put meanwhile partners to also know what we are doing with other founders and startups like us. Go check it out. Let's keep this conversation going and, um, just ping us. Call us anytime.

Nancy Nash: Wonderful. Well, thank you both so much again. We wish you a great day ahead and a great rest of your weekend and we will definitely be in touch.

Jaime Garcia: Thank you. Thank you, Nancy.

Shoko Takahashi: Thank you.

Host: Thank you so much, guys.

Jaime Garcia: I really appreciate you later.

Shoko Takahashi: Take care of.

Jaime Garcia: Bye. Bye.

Shoko Takahashi: Bye. Bye.

Speaker E: You've just finished another episode of Founders Voyage, the podcast for entrepreneurs by entrepreneurs. The team at Founders Voyage wants to thank you from the bottom of our hearts. We hope you enjoyed your time with us us. And if so, please share this with someone else who might enjoy this podcast. You can also support us by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and by donating to our Patreon outro music today is Something for Nothing by Reverend Peyton's Big Damn Band.