Splutter: Held Hostage in Beirut. Later Dave Risked His Pension to Buy the Business He Worked For.

Speaker A: The door would open and they would try and pull my colleague out by his hair and wrench him out the car to kill him. We held on, um, in the back of that car for our lives for 45 minutes. It's the longest time of my life.

Speaker B: You're listening to Founded and Grounded with olly Collard and Dr. Becky Sage. The podcast brings you the honest realities of startup life. If you're a founder or aspiring entrepreneur, this is for you. Hi, I'm Dr. Becky Sage, co host of Founded and Grounded, and I'm here today with Ollie to record the analysis of episode six of season six. Hi, Ollie, how are you today?

Speaker C: Great. Sun is shining, spring is here. Really good.

Speaker B: Yay. We love a bit of springtime. I a springtime baby. So, um, I don't know, I think I just need the sunshine, need those longer days, need more light. Um, gives us plenty of energy for, uh, building our businesses. So who have we got on the podcast today?

Speaker C: So we've got the wonderful Dave Mason, uh, who is founder and managing director of a couple of businesses. The first one is called Splutter, which is a social media simulation and training platform and also a media training business. Uh, so, yeah, really interesting origin story and can't wait to, uh, dive into his journey because I was blown away by his story and I know you listening are going to be really intrigued by it as well.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Dave's had a fascinating career journey, so let's dive into his early career, uh, the lessons he's learned along the way and how that led him to run the businesses he is running now.

Speaker D: Dave, good morning. Thank you so much for, uh, coming on the show.

Speaker C: How are you?

Speaker A: Morning, Ollie. Thank you so much. Delighted to be here and, uh, looking forward to, uh, getting into this.

Speaker D: Indeed. Well, we'll get started. We're going to dive firstly into your career and background, Dave. So you've got a 30 year impressive background in terms of media ranging from TV to radio. I'd love to know more about how you got started in the first.

Speaker A: I was, um, a child who was no brothers or sisters, obsessed with pop music on the radio, obsessed with radio and loved TV because didn't have computers or anything else to distract us at the time. Um, and I think as a small child, I'd originally been interested in the idea of maybe being a TV cameraman, as they were called then, because it was men. Um, that was the phrase they gave. And, um, one of my teachers actually turned around when I was at primary school and said, you'll never make it As a TV cameraman, if you don't get, if you don't get better at maths. I remember being quite deflated by this and M. I think if a teacher said it now that would be called out a little bit. But funnily, isn't it funny how something that can be said when you're so young may be impact on you? And I think part of the other thing was I talked a lot in class, um, too much that was always on my school report. If I'm not going to be any good at physics and maths, um, but I'm good at talking, maybe I should be on the other side of the microphone or the camera or whatever. Um, and maybe I can be a TV presenter. So I like the idea of, you know, ah, presenting Blue Peter as a little kid or something like that. Um, and you know, there was lots of people you listened to on the radio who also, you know, did TV shows, whether it was Top of the Pops or whether it was, you know, Noel Evans on Swap Shop or whatever. Um, and I just thought, yeah, okay, media is something I definitely want to do. And by the time I'd hit nine or ten, that was it. The downside was my father was a careers officer and him and my mum spent the rest of my teenage years virtually up to the age of me, starting in radio, bringing home brochures for everything else under the sun. You could imagine. I think my dad had me down as Police Cadet, R.A. royal Marine Commando, all these other local government officer, which he was. And uh, I did for a few years after I left school, but used it to get into radio. And I think it was all the things that, you know, your parents are going, the media's too unpredictable, you know, you won't be able to get a mortgage. Ah, it's a very precarious profession. And of course they were right as I was to learn in some cases to my cost in my 20s. Um, but that shouldn't stop you when you're young going for something that is a dream and then working to realise it. And I think that journey then became very interesting.

Speaker D: And how did it feel sort of going against your parents advice in terms of what you should be going into?

Speaker A: Um, it was the only example of teenage rebellion I really enacted and I wasn't a bad kid. Um, I probably spent quite a bit of time on my own in my bedroom as teenagers do. Um, and I just spent the whole time taping the charts and, you know, trying to put my own little radio shows together and that sort of Thing, um, and becoming quite geeky about it. And I was you know, obsessed by music. So I can probably still remember the chart positions of key songs at certain Times in the 1980s. I mean my wife is convinced that I'm on the spectrum because of that as I think any, a lot of people like me who collect things or are single ah minded about those things. I believe we are all on a spectrum personally and that we, that's why it's a spectrum, we all occupy it somewhere and that's what makes people and society and business interesting. But um, yeah, I think I was probably along it somewhere being obsessed with music. Um, and the other thing I used to do when I was um, 14, 13, 14 was write. I was a prolific letter writer to TV and radio companies and I would write away to ask to go on studio visits, I would write away for autographs, I would write away for information packs on how to get in and write for careers, things to do with that, um, to BBC, ITV, 15 different ITV regional companies that existed then, um, that would have a couple of thousand people working for them. So the local one here, where we are in this city of Bristol was htv and I was obsessed about being a TV reporter and um, being on htv and there were two organizations as a teenager, um, I wanted to work at and it made me slightly um, I suppose there was a split in my personality in I wasn't sure what I wanted to be. Did I want to be a TV journalist and reporter covering news which back in the 80s that's all you had on the TV at 6 o' clock in the evening so everybody watched it. Um, and did I want to do that or did I want to be a DJ on Radio 1? And the truth was I wanted to do both. But I just, you know, those are very different disciplines and completely different directions. Um, but in a strange kind of way I did do both.

Speaker D: So how did you get started initially and how did you get that first foot in the door? Was it your kind of cold outreach of writing these letters?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's like cold marketing. I mean we've been talking about, you know, marketing. I just marketed myself as um, this teenage, uh, exuberant, um, media obsessed teenager. And in the end um, my grandparents recognized that there was this thing that I had a burning desire. And when I used to go on holiday on my own to Devon, I would ask them to take me to things. So they would take me to the Radio one roadshow when it appeared in Exmouth, nice seaside resort in Devon. And I'D go to that every year and see all the DJs up, you know, up close and hang around um, afterwards. And then, um, there was a local radio station there called Devon Air. My mother, my grandmother discovered that there was a youth access program. And When I was 15 I got in touch with this youth access program. Um, but I couldn't drive so my grandfather had to take me in. Um, and I tried to get on this program. But of course living 50 miles away in Somerset. I grew up in mid Somerset, you see, near Glastonbury, in a place called Somerton. And Devon Air Radio. There wasn't a radio station in Somerset at the time, but there was one in Exeter. And I managed to um, convince the producer of this youth access program that I had some ideas that they might be interested in using and they let me make a feature for them. But it was on the very day that I left school aged 16 in the summer of 1985. And a major BBC drama production, controversial one, was filmed in my hometown of Somerton called the Monocled Mutineer, a four part series with Paul McGann, famous actor, lives in Bristol, who at the time was starting out. And um, I just went down with my tape recorder and blagged my way into doing interviews with cast members, um, for this Devonair radio program about the making of a TV film in a hometown. And I interviewed various people backstage. I got an interview with Paul McGann. I was only 16. Um, he was charming at the time as well. And uh, I saw that the First World War trenches that they created on the Somerset levels, it was a story about the only mutiny in the British army in the First World War. So very controversial at the time. Um, and the day I left school I signed up as an extra with the BBC and played a First World War soldier um, overnight and got paid for doing that. So that was my first day of being a school lever. Finished my O level exam in the morning. Now GCSEs finished my O level exam in the morning and then in the rest of the day um, was dressed as a, um, New Zealand fusilier from the First World War. And um produced this um feature for Devonair Radio. And they liked my voice and I kind of stayed in touch with them a bit. And then, um, other stuff happened. A couple of, you know, I worked in Somerset County Council and I was going to college and all of this. Um, but I'd written to the governing authority for radio and TV at the time saying why doesn't Somerset have a local Radio station. And when, um, long story short, I ended up being sort of spotted headhunted if you like, by the boss of Devon Air Radio. I told him I'd written this letter and he said, do you still have it? And I showed him this dog eared letter from when I was 15. He said I love that when we apply for the license for Somerset, you're going to be part of this bid. And that letter is going to come with us to London to show them that local people have wanted this. And I did. I went to London with what would become the board of directors of this incredibly successful radio station and the first of its kind in Somerset called Orchard fm. And I took this letter in London and produced it in front of all these, the great and the good, the lords and the ladies who ran the Independent Broadcasting Authority that gave out licenses to ITV and independent local radio stations. And they said, we have a 50, 18 year old Dave Mason wrote to you when he was 15. He's brought the letter along. He's going to be part of the bid. He's going to do a radio show on this new station if we win it. Um, and it was, that was a huge deal. I mean to be 18, 19 years of age and uh, a shareholder. We all put in a pound. I was a shareholder at 1819 of a, of a franchise hopeful organization that went on to be a radio station that sold for £25.5 million. Ten years later I didn't have anywhere near enough shares in it. I kick myself that my parents didn't put in a few grand because actually on that basis, because these were private shares, uh, I could have bought a flat off the back of the sale of that, but I didn't. I got a few grand out that helped me through some lean times. Being freelance, which anyone who freelance knows it's really difficult to put money aside and save for a mortgage and all of that. Um, so yeah, I was involved in the um, consortium that led to the founding of Orchard FM and then very kindly the managing director recognizing my part in its foundation, let me say the opening words of the radio station in November 1989, which is 35 years ago. So, and as a, by that age I was 20, by the time we went on air I was 20, 21 and I did an evening show for a couple of years there. But that station managed to get under the skin of and the social fabric of the people of Somerset in a way that I've never known any other station really penetrate. Maybe Radio City in Liverpool where I Went afterwards as well. Had that kind of incredible connection with people. Um, but Orchard was extraordinary. I think it's regarded by some of my former colleagues there from audience figures and the way it was part of, uh, the fabric of the community across Somerset. One of the most successful, um, local radio stations in Britain, I think, ever an institution. Yeah, it was for a good 10 years. Then it was bought out by GWR, as I say, for this sale price. And then it has become part of Global and it's now Heart. So if you punch 102.6 into your radio as you drive down the M M5, it's part of the Heart thing. But, you know, to my mind, actually, that's what it lost.

Speaker D: Amazing story there, Dave. And I think what comes out from that for me is obviously your clear passion for getting into media, but also your tenacity and your tenacious business in terms of trying to get your foot in the door there. And obviously it paid dividends in terms of being part of this amazing local radio station in Somerset. So fast forward a bit. How did your career kind of play out? What were some of the highlights from your later career?

Speaker A: Well, I mean, the foundations were laid at Orchard FM in Somerset, and my boss there used to say to me, you have got this issue. He said, you don't know whether you want to be like a BBC Local Radio journalist style per Operator. He said, I think you'd be very suited to BBC Local Radio or whether you want to be a, you know, just playing the music and a jock, as we would call it in a radio jock. He said, I think you do have this issue. And he was right. I wrote a music column in the local newspaper in Somerset. Um, so it set me up well from when I went to Liverpool and the early 90s, 1994, um, indie music scene really kicked off with, with your Blur, Oasis, Cast, Suede, um, all that was coming out of Manchester, everything that's coming out of Liverpool. And I must have had 500 bands, uh, come through my indie show in Liverpool over three years. And some didn't make. Most M didn't make it, but lots were brilliant and a few absolutely made it, you know, quite big. Um, not because they come on my show, but they do, um, they do credit me even now with being one of the first, ah, people to play them on the radio, even before Chris Evans did it at Radio 1. And one of those bands is Space. They had a huge hit with the Female of the Species and Neighborhood. Couple of incredible albums. They're still touring now and 30 years later they see me. They've even put me on their guest list in the last couple of years just to say thank you. And they met my daughter and went, oh, your dad was the first person to play us on the radio. You know. It's lovely that in Liverpool they really like Somerset. If they take you to their heart, they really do. And, um, they don't let that go, you know.

Speaker D: I love scousers. I spent three years studying up there.

Speaker A: Did you?

Speaker D: Yeah. 2006 and, yeah, special place in my heart. And Radio City is one of the most iconic places in the city, isn't it?

Speaker A: It absolutely is. And, you know, it's changed its name. It's now become a greatest hit, which is a terrible loss. I see that as what they've done to that radio station and what they did to another one similarly in the south as, um, cultural vandalism to me. Not just in the name and the brand, because Radio City, for example, is 50 years old this year. But what it stood for for Liverpool people and everything that came, came through there, what it represented, the documentaries it made, the way it stood up through, you know, um, Hillsborough and all of the things that have happened, good and bad, in the city and celebrated its successes, you know, to strip something out like that, it's a bit like what the council in Liverpool did to the cavern in 1973 by filling in with concrete and going, oh, nobody's going to care where the Beatles played. And now they have, you know, millions of people coming through every year just wanting to see that. And I know radio stations are, um, amorphous and they're not a thing you can touch. And media is something that is quite a transient thing that comes and goes and all the rest of it. But when it's been part of your upbringing, you know, um, and people have a real connection with BBC radio stations and the people that worked at them through their lives, it becomes part of the cultural fabric of Britain. And I think we made a big mistake in this country of getting rid of, um, that federal system of local ITV and local commercial radio stations, because it was a, uh, really good route through which people's careers could start and burgeon. And you can make your mistakes locally and. And you're not making it nationally. And it's a place where people can start and move on. And now you can't really do that, you know, you can't go. You have to work for a local TV production company or that makes stuff that does go nationally or internationally, you know, and there is Something to be said. Older people find this when you buy a property and you, you buy a house or you have a family, you care about education and local issues and local matters. So just because we get older doesn't mean that people aren't interested in things that are going on around where they live. I believe they still are. So that loss of local is important and it seems to me that some of the big corporates really don't care about regional and local audience. And I think that's tragic because there is potential damage to local democracy in that as well. That's a wider issue. It's a wider debate that actually holding local councillors and local organizations to account through regional and local journalism is really important, hugely important, including your local mp. But if you don't have a regional media set up to do that, however that is, and, um, taking that away, then you're damaging part of, and chipping away at our, um, democracy. So there are other ways. There's always backdoor ways in, of doing things. I mean, I never took a direct route into, uh, any part of my career. It was always done because I sent demos off of my voice, um, of me presenting a show and that got me to the next stage, or I sent a TV show reel, as it was then, of you presenting clips on tv. And I sent hundreds of those out. I mean, I have the best file at home of rejection letters. I kept them, physical letters posted to me and there are more than 75 rejection letters that I had between 1997 and the year 2000. Um, and nearly every time this happened I was made redundant or my contract would come to an end. And so it was very precarious lifestyle, it was hard to save. I tried to have a little pension going in my 20s because best advice your dad gives you, as he was careers officer, local government, like security. He did say to me, well, if you're going to do that career, for goodness sake, save for a pension. And I did a bit. But it was very hard to save for tax and put money aside and, you know, um, mortgage saving up for a flat or a house just seemed really difficult.

Speaker D: It's solid advice, I mean, to look after yourself in the longer term, but also for, uh, obviously people listening in terms of your, your pension costs, it comes off your, obviously your profit, um, in terms of reducing your corporation tax and obviously has taxable benefits there. So it is good, solid business advice.

Speaker A: You sound like an independent financer. That was fantastic, that little nugget there. And in fact, I, I swear by that now. And I absolutely say it to anybody. Now if you're a business owner and that question, do I go sole trader, partnership, uh, or limited company? I think, uh, limited company is not as scary as you think it is. Do it and then sort your pension out. Make sure you're putting that tax money aside. And even if you are a freelance operator, exactly the same rules apply. And do get a good accountant. You need to have all those things in play just for keeping, you know, the wolf from the door 100% and saving up for sickness. That was the one thing, you know, the one thing, one of the first things I learned going into radio when I was 21. No show, no dough. That's what they tell you, love that, no show, no dough, you're sick, you don't get paid. And uh, actually putting money aside for holidays when you are a freelance or you're working in the media on a contract, unless you've got one that treats you like a start member, um, every time you went on holiday, one could really only go away for a week. But your every holiday you took cost twice the money because you weren't earning that week. So when you come back you were a week down on your money.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker A: Which meant it was even more of a struggle to pay your rent at the end of the month. So holidays become a, it's a thing, it's a real thing, it's a, you've really got to save almost. You're getting hit twice when you're freelancing in contract. And I never, I never forget that about being in radio. You know, in a way looking back, my parents were absolutely right. You're not going to get paid holiday, you're not going to get sick pay, you're going to get from contract to contract. Oh, and by the way, it's not that well paid at the start. So the only thing, what's left is the fact that it's not really like a job and it's great fun and you're having an incredible time in your 20s doing something you absolutely love. But if you're looking for something with all these benefits because you're super career minded or you have to earn a certain level with all of these benefits attached to, um, it was never a career for that. That wasn't the reason you did it.

Speaker D: That's the reality of it, isn't it? In terms of the industry and starting out and being a freelance and managing your own time, your own budgets, saving up, providing that continuity, that contingency plan. Um, what if the worst were to Happen. And that's what people need to be made aware of.

Speaker A: One of the biggest challenges in media, I found working in it, and I know colleagues have found the same being in it is when you're in the job and you're full and you're loving it, but you might be doing 12 hours a day or whatever. Imagine what I'm going to say three months before the end of your contract. What is the challenge with that? So you're thinking, this is great. I'm working really hard, I'm flat out, oh, I've been in it nine months now and I've only got three months to go on my contract. Are they going to keep me? Is this program carrying on into next year? What's the deal here? You're going to have a chat with your boss, what's the deal? And they go, oh, we're not, we're not sure if, uh, m. We can keep you next year because of this, that and the other, or things changing with budgets and suddenly you get to, you know, nine, 10 months and you're thinking, I need to now start looking for my next gig, but you're really busy with the one you're in. So then suddenly you've got to, you know, turn your, your mind and have one eye on getting all the applications out there, searching for another job. But it was really hard and challenging to look for another job whilst you're in that contract. But unbelievably, it is so much easier to find and land a job when you're in one than when you're not.

Speaker D: That's great advice there, Dave. And obviously you've got this experience here of, you know, working for yourself and being a freelancer. Uh, but that all changed when you decided to do a management buyout. So can you talk to me a bit about how your first business came about and what led you to that point?

Speaker A: Yeah, I'll pop the history. Uh, first of all, because obviously I'm talking about being freelance and going contract to contract. And that accounted for most of my, um, twenties between the years of about 1990, 1990 to the year 2000. I did a year at Radio 1 and 5 live from 2000 to 2001. Then I spent nine years at GMTV and that was the stable one. That's when I had a company, ITV pension, did nine years in Breakfast tv, gave me a staff contract. Money was okay. I was living in London, um, saved up for a flat, all of that, and kind of set down some proper, sensible routes. And it, it was, uh, nine Years in one job. I'd never done that, so that was being part of the family. So I did that till 2010. Then was fortunate enough that I'd met my now wife and we'd moved to Bath and we were having a baby. So it was, hang on, do I want to carry on doing night shifts or am I going to, uh, uh, stay as staff? And an opportunity came up when ITV bought GMTV and changed it to something else which didn't work out, called Daybreak. I took redundancy, reasonably decent package. Relocated to Bath. I went freelance. So I started doing media training with the armed forces and NATO, um, going, uh, in and out helicopters on Royal Navy ships with different NATO countries, um, all around the world. Incredible stuff. Doing media training with squaddies in, in the middle of the bush in Kenya, uh, in a tent, 85 degrees. They bring in like 100 squaddies at a time. And I would sit there and have to try and say, right, this is what you do if a media crew comes up to you and they're all sitting there with their arms folded, going like, when's lunch? You know. So, um, was doing that, was doing corporate media training. But I was also working at ITN in London and freelancing in Bristol at, um, ITV News there back reporting and producing again. Um, but that was now. I'd gone from nine years of safe job to precarious freelancing again, but this time with a mortgage and a baby. And that was, had lots of challenges within it because you're putting money aside. Quick tip on that. Definitely go flat rate VAT if you can. You get an 8% uplift in your, um, income overnight. That was the best financial advice I was given during that period. And then in 2014, exactly 10 years ago, I knew that a job was coming up, um, in Bristol, um, for a head of media training for an agency called Mentor, which had developed into something that was doing digital, um, media on the side and websites and all of that. And its founder, a guy called Magnus Carter, who was a bit of a guru and a mentor to me, actually. Um, he'd been a journalist and a great broadcaster. He, um, was retiring. So I applied for the job and there were more than 40 applicants and I got down to the last two and they ummed and out a bit and then gave it to me. And then I was staff again from September 2014. So exactly 10 years ago. I then became a staff employee at Mentor. But within a couple of years of being there, I could quickly see that the ambition there was to Grow it as a digital agency. It was much more about, um, the other side of the business and the bit I was working on. So in a way I could see two cultures that slightly clashed there. The traditional media training, face to face communications coaching side of the business, which was mine, and their side of the business, which was really a technical agency. And, um, it took me, it's the longest place, Ollie, where I've ever been, where I decided I wanted to leave but took three years to do it. Now, most people I know, and I'm not going to say I wasn't, you know, fed up. Fed up. I just knew that I couldn't do another five years in the same way because I just saw that it was culturally a different thing and I either needed to have a change, go out on my own or do something different. But it took me three years to work out the best way of buying it. I spoke to a potential angel investor who was, uh, an entrepreneurial friend of mine, uh, in Somerset. And I thought about, do I borrow money from him? But. And it was a lot and I didn't really want to have to pay him back. Then go to the bank, you've got to put your house on the line. Uh, and that was scary. And it wasn't until a wonderful guy in public relations, um, who works with management consultants in Bath, a guy called Dave Pippit, came to me and said, dave, did you know you could mortgage your own pension? And I went, whoa. If my dad was listening to this, he'd be like, no, son, that's the only bit of savings and security you've got. You would be insane to do that. So I was like, mortgage my own pension, Dave, that's fantastic. Where do I sign? So he showed me the right people to do it again. It was a Bristol firm, um, called Clifton Wealth Management, who have a properly regulated product. I mean, this is FSA regulated. You can't do this unless they put you through rounds and rounds of interviews about your business model. They want to see three years of plan. So if you were going to start a dog walking cafe on a remote pathway, hoping that you would have footfall, they would, they might turn around and go, unless you can show us the numbers for three years. Time for dog walkers buying coffee. It's, you know, we don't recommend releasing these funds to you. We've got to protect your pension on your behalf.

Speaker D: And rightly so.

Speaker A: And rightly so. And actually they are, uh, legally regulated to do so. So they were really tough on me. But it was great. There's a guy called Lewis who, uh, um, I dealt with who, you know, three piece visited me going, right, you do realise you can lose everything from your life saving pensions, pot if this goes wrong. And I went, yeah, but I'm backing myself and I've got to do this because this business has been at that point, that business had been there 15 years and it was a proven success and it was a great model. And we were just in that transition between clients trusting me because Magnus had now left and been out of the business for five years. And so I enacted a management buyout, but it was a bit like when the United nations have talks between two warring countries. I had to sit down with the two brothers that owned the business and we had to have talks about the talks. So we went for a pizza one day. I remember this in August, um, 2018, 2019, um, and that was a pivotal year. I brought a book out in the previous year called Handling the Media in Good Times and Bad, got my first published book, I got married, um, and I was now buying a business as well. And we said, look, we've got to do this in a gentlemanly way. Under no circumstances, this is going to get tough and we're not going to agree on the numbers all the way, but we can't fall out on this because one, I had a job and they employed me and part of that was if I had to carry on working, then we still got to work with each other. If the buyout doesn't work out, um, and from my perspective, it couldn't be right, well, I'm going to be peed off with you. So we had talks about the talks and anyone who's thinking about doing this similar thing, I think understanding, drawing some lines in the sand and having a cultural conversation about the direction the talks might take is a really important first step to not just sitting down and saying, this is what I'm prepared to offer you, it's that or I'm gone. You know what I mean?

Speaker C: Yeah.

Speaker A: And I think it was a very grown up, sensible thing because it could have gone wrong and we could have easily fallen out, you know. And of course, you know, they wanted way more than I was prepared to pay and I had to go back with the argument in the management buyout. But you do realize 50% of this business is me and my IP and what I bring to it and my 30 years of media and journalistic experience that was there before I joined you. That's why you hired me, because you bought me and my 30 years of experience, whatever it was then, 25 years. So I've brought that into this business. So half of this business is me. So imagine trying to buy a consultancy when you can't say, look, it looks like this and there's the widgets over there and that's how many I get produced. It's an amorphous thing where. And Ollie, this is the strangest part about it. I wasn't really buying anything and I had some friends who owned a digital agency in another part of the country who said, you must be mad, you are the business. Why would you pay them anything? Just leave and, um, go and do Dave Mason Media training. And I went because one, it doesn't feel right and there's an ethical thing around this as well. I can't just leave them in the doo doo. And the other thing is, um, I'm buying a brand and that brand does stand for something. And actually that mental brand, if I hadn't done it, saw me through the pandemic, people, I bought some goodwill. Right, here's the thing though, because people are listening to this might go, m still not sure Dave and I would understand that you're leaving, you're backing yourself, that's good. You're mortgaging your own pension. Maybe good, maybe not. And at the time it's very hard to dispassionately step back and go, are you absolutely making the right decision? But on, um, balance, the people I asked said, no, go for it. You are that organization. I would still work with it. I think it's a good thing to buy. And I bought the brand and the name and I bought the website and I bought a bit of goodwill and that was it.

Speaker D: It's very hard because there's so much complexity there and obviously a lot of history. It reminds me of the, the story where somebody bumped into Picasso and they asked them to do them a drawing and he's done a drawing in a couple of minutes and said it's going to be £10,000. And they've gone, well, it only took you two minutes. But it's about your experience and all of your learning that you're bringing to the table.

Speaker A: There's, in this situation, I was being bought because of everything I brought to it. And I modernized that, um, media training outfit, I digitized it, um, I introduced new courses and then of course I brought in the splutter thing. And because it was a technical agency, I asked them to build me a social media simulator. And that's where we get this idea of two businesses because it was one business. And I suppose part of the reason I really left, if I'm totally honest, is because I think I had more belief in what that system could achieve and what it stood for in the communication space than I think the people that I bought it from did.

Speaker D: So it's quite a time there, isn't it?

Speaker C: You've taken a decision to do the buyout.

Speaker D: Go ahead, go through all those conversations. You've then decided that you want to split it into two businesses. Then Covid hits. Now you're well versed in crisis and managing crisis and how to respond to that. But what did you do? What was going through your head at that point of time?

Speaker A: Um, do you mean when Covid started or when I bought the business and thought, what now?

Speaker D: So both time points, really, because In

Speaker A: January of 2020, I bought the business and we had three good months and we had three normal months and in the March it was doing all right. And I just had a. I suppose there was, um, between 30 and 40,000 pounds in the bank account, which was more than I'd ever seen in my life in any account. But this was a business account. And I thought, that's a good quarter, that's a good. And bearing in mind, I bought the business and it. And I was really a new business from January 1, 2020. So first three months going quite well, and then you're hearing this stuff about COVID But we'd had that with, um, other types of flu and bird flu 10 years before. So as a journalist, I'm obsessed with news. So I'm watching it all, thinking, well, this is okay. Um, but then I remember sitting on the couch, um, I think it was Monday, March 16th, roughly. Um, and I watched all the emails come in from every client I was working with going, hi, can I cancel the training? See you on the other side. Hi. Just because of what's going on with COVID probably can't do the training face to face now. So, um, we'll see you on the other side, um, when this is all over. And I just saw it like a domino effect. Go. Every single client disappeared in one afternoon. And Ollie, I never experienced this and I hope it doesn't happen again. I had a physical, uh, visceral, um, um, panic attack reaction where I froze. And I remember feeling. Going white and shaking. And I didn't fall off the sofa, but I nearly did. My wife was away working, I think the university she'd just started at. Um, and my daughter was at, uh, school, uh, and I was on My own thinking this, it's all over. And then thinking about what the guy had said about if you mortgage your pension, assets can go down as well as up, your home may be at risk and your mortgage and your entire pension, life savings for everything you'd ever worked for, have just gone down the Suwannee on a Monday afternoon because of all these emails. And I bricked myself. And then a week later, Boris Johnson comes out and says, you must all stay at home and it's lockdown. And what did I notice, apart from when I eventually picked myself up off the floor? It took me roughly 48 hours to fashion a new online course and watch the media and go, hang on a minute, there is a way back, but I'm going to have to market this hard and go back to people and go, if Ant and Dec are doing Saturday night takeaway and, um, Friday night's, um, have I Got News for you is being done from their homes remotely. This is the new world now. This is media. And in fact, if you want to appear in this format, which senior leaders and executives and medics will be doing, you have to appear this way. Oh, my God. And look, I can see they're washing behind them on the back of their door, hung there. And look at how they've got their laptop. We can see the. I know I'm putting my hand up now in front of the camera doing that, but, uh, all you could see was up their nose and they're dressed really badly and seeing their cobweb ceiling. And I thought, with every crisis, and I thought, hang on, Dave, calm yourself here, love. Um, what have you learned from crisis? And from Magnus Carter, your predecessor in five years at Mentor, you've learned that from every crisis there is opportunity. And the word crisis in apparently Chinese years, danger or opportunity. And therefore, which is based on an old Mariners, um, tale, seafaring nations going around the headland and will their, um, ships be dashed on the rocks or will they see an opportunity for trading? And within 48 hours I thought, well, this has to be the way to do it. And I'm going to get in touch with all my clients and say, you have to do this online now. And we've got a module. And I did it in the dining room area in front of our tv. Um, my daughter and wife, bless them, would have to be banished to the. The little front room where they would watch TV and do their work and I would do my training with clients from our dining room TV on the wall. And that saved me. And that Saved the business and uh, it's thanks to a couple of organizations I have to say. I helped one of my regional hospitals through Covid and media trained all their senior staff so they had resilience instead of just having the CEO trained. And this is what I spend my time telling so many clients is you can't, you don't have a really resilient organization unless you have more than one person media and crisis media trained in the executive. Because if you only have one executive that's a CEO, uh, media trained and they get sick or they're unavailable at uh, a conference, your organization is screwed because you don't have anyone who can confidently speak publicly. So we have the head of midwifery, the head of nursing, the medical director, everybody crisis media trained to represent that hospital. And part of the interesting thing about that, it wasn't about mainstream media and sky and the BBC. What we learned was that communities through um, getting messages to mums to be on Facebook that it was safe to give birth in the non Covid wards of the hospital, that it was safe to come and have your baby in the hospital. And they were such important messages. And I learned so much about that crisis and escalation strategy of a crisis going to the top and having the leader come out and say those things early on but deescalating back to a resilient team of well trained, other experts that could pick up the slack from the CEO and carry um, a crisis for the longer term. Because one person can't hold that stuff over a year or two and not in Covid you couldn't. So we learned a lot and I thank that hospital and the lady there, um, who hired me through that time because they saved me. And there were a couple of other clients that like housing associations that came to me and we did lots of online training to get through 2020 and thankfully I have a business to show for it. And now of course that module has stayed and I do office for National Statistics training online in an office at the end of my garden now that I've had built one of those modular ones and we do it around the world and I coach executives around the world this way. And it's made me green, it's made me a business that's far more far greener and it's made the clients that I work with way greener.

Speaker D: So Dave, you obviously had to really pivot there.

Speaker C: The mentor media training which you've explained in detail.

Speaker D: Talk to me then about the decision to separate the business and form a new business. Called Splutter, which simulates real time social media training. So can you tell us more firstly about the problem you're solving with that particular business and what your solution is?

Speaker A: Absolutely. I wanted to modernize media training as a form. It was basically always, you know, a former TV or radio journalist showing people what to do with their hands, where to look, how to appear in radio and TV and uh, all the rest of it in very traditional linear form. And I thought we, that's fine, but everything's social media and that's the way it's all going anyway. Um, but we also need to train organizations in how to be resilient on social media and for their customer services teams and when they're doing video and putting video on social media, but also crucially when they have these kind of annual or biannual big crisis exercises where you test whether the business can cope. And this happens sometimes multi agency, the police will do it with a local hospital and you'll have police, ambulance, fire and the hospital doing a big exercise. And they'll test it with the media. So they might hire a couple of journalists to ring them up and give them hard time. But one of the ways that back in the day, or at least uh, any up until a few years ago and even some now would, um, simulate social media is by putting up a PowerPoint saying you've had a really bad tweet and there's the PowerPoint slide showing the really nasty tweet. And I'm going, nasty tweet? You've been deluged by 5,000 of these by now, while people saying, what the hell are you doing? So I said, we need a social simulator that in real time I can have two of my journalists playing, I'm not joking. Two people can play dozens and dozens of avatars effectively. And those avatars being, um, client stakeholders, the people that would be shouting at you, your local mp, mainstream, um, media, um, you know, Angry from Manchester, uh, all the rest of it. And we can play all these different roles which we set up in the system and hammer your organization. It's great fun. It's so much fun. I mean, imagine getting paid to chuck crap at, uh, corporate organizations, um, for a living in the morning and then afterwards say, here's where you can do better. Um, and not just corporate, public and private, but I mean really saying nasty stuff online. We have to be vicious to them to give them a real sense of, of how that is. And then they got pressure from us playing journalists going, we want an answer now. We need A statement now. And they're seeing what's happening when they're going through their exercise is they're seeing the story getting away from them and they're seeing how we are playing the Daily Mail and others and that they haven't got a grip of their narrative because this small crisis is escalating so quickly. In the 15, 20 minutes that we're doing this simulated real time social media, I've had someone walk out of a room and say, I've got to go out and have a cigarette outside. This is too stressful.

Speaker D: I can believe it. Because you're throwing people in at the deep end and it seems real, whereas

Speaker C: you're doing the PowerPoint presentation.

Speaker D: It's not real, it's not coming in when you're getting these messages. And the Internet can be a very harsh place. You get those keyboard warriors, people who are not going to hold back. If you're amplifying message after message after message, you're going to go into that mode of panicking.

Speaker A: We also do mock media in there so we can sort of upload to, uh, splutter, um, a link to some video which might show a factory on fire or a protest or something and say this is going on. So we can multimedia that. And I also do mock radio bulletins with their company name in there. And you see that their faces go white around the table when they hear their organization being mentioned in the context of this crisis. And then they say, this was so real because we heard the radio bulletin at 9 o' clock in the morning. We're playing exercise time as well. So we'll say it's 5:30 on a Sunday in the morning and you've been got out of bed. Um, and then they say the social bit, oh my goodness, how do we deal with that? And then afterwards we say, well, look, here's how you manage it. Here's how you can handle that crisis with some very simple toolkit that we have that can save you a world of pain if you just get out there quickly and you have a strategy for being able to say something quickly, to empathize with people and to show that you've got this. And I promise you, organizations come off the back end of that, um, loving it. And as a result of that, um, our splutter system was used in one of the world's biggest ever crisis exercises last Christmas.

Speaker D: And I was going to ask you about that. So it was used in Hong Kong in the financial sector.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker D: What impact has that had on the business?

Speaker A: Um, I think now people are starting to see, oh, this is serious stuff. And our system is future proofed against any incoming, um, social media platforms that are being developed. We've done something with it where it can be future proofed so it could simulate or emulate, um, any type of social media platform where people are writing horrible things about you. Um, and that's been a really useful thing. So clients can now say, oh well we wouldn't have this kind of social media over in Hong Kong. They use this so we can say, well that's okay, you can just change it and call it that. So when it was used in Hong Kong, there were more than 1,000 participants. It was used, um, by a major crisis management company, uh, that I'd heard of before because of their work with NATO and other organizations. And it was part of the thing that would have led the narrative that day that would have frightened the heck out of whoever was logging on and seeing what was being thrown at them. And um, it was great. Yeah. And I think they're up for awards as well for their part in I think, I believe the world's biggest financial sector, um, simulated crisis exercise called WISE23. But what was beautiful about it was that I didn't know much about it, which is the whole point of this second business. My first business I'm so immersed in. I know everything that's going on with every client and like yourself I'm coming up with questions and all of that. And it's very people based and it's a consultancy splatter, you know, is like a global startup. And um, the further I am away from knowing what the client is doing with that exercise the better because that's the very point. And the reason we were hired was because this company, 4C Strategy, said you've got exactly the right product for us, Dave. I don't need you, Dave, and your team to be our trainers. We've got that expertise in house. We just want to license your system. So that's the whole point. I don't know anything about what's going on. I don't get involved and neither do my team. It's a licensable software as a service product and it can be used for crisis, um, customer service training in house. Agent PR agencies is perfect for as well as, you know, large companies that want to do in house training, um, and build the confidence of their teams in being able to get the right tone of voice on social. It's really good for that. A word about our sponsors.

Speaker D: So Becky, I started my first business back in 2018. And then in 2019, my son came along, and then in 2020 20, my daughter as well. So I've never known life as a

Speaker C: founder, uh, not being a parent.

Speaker B: This is why you've always been so deliberate about doing the four day working week, right?

Speaker D: Yeah. So I started it, obviously before they were at school.

Speaker C: So every Thursday, I used to look after both of them, and then now

Speaker D: they're both of school age. It means that I get a bit of time back. So it got me thinking about why I do what I do.

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Speaker B: Listening to this interview made me feel all warm and fuzzy and nostalgic because when I was a child, I went to the HTV television workshop. Um, and so as Dave was talking about. Yeah, he was talking about, like, all the local media and we used to go in as kids. Funnily enough, I live literally across the road from some of the studios he was talking about. And, um, yeah, we would go in there and you could go in the canteen during your break and there would be, like, the local news readers in the canteen and things like that. Yeah, as I was listening to this, he was bringing all of that back to me.

Speaker C: Did you ask for any autographs, Becky?

Speaker B: I think I may have done at the time. Yeah. I can't really remember. We did actually work, somewhat controversially now with Rolf Harris, um, within this context, in that building. Um, and I got an autograph from him. Um, um. So going back to, uh, Dave's story, I mean, just such a winding story, and yet there was still these amazing threads that just continue throughout his whole career, throughout the building of the businesses. But I think he's such an example of how the pathway to success is rarely linear. And it's really about being present and focused in each thing that you're doing, but also being ready to pivot. So from his perspective, in his journey, he kind of had this tenacity and, um, really knew what he wanted and went for it when he was very, very young. And, uh, that took him to local radio, into journalism, ultimately to launching a digital business. But I feel that was not necessarily the plan in those early days, and there was a big gap between some of those things. But I think this idea of being adaptable and pivoting strategically is much more valuable and especially in today's world than having this rigid career plan and expecting to sort of step into one linear pathway and expecting that to kind of give back. Um, so one of the things that he. That I think was a turning point for him, as he described it, was this idea of which one do you want to be? Um, and they were talking about kind of do you want to be the DJ or do you want to be the host? And so I think Focus has ended up playing a pivotal role even in this, whilst holding this idea of being adaptable at the same time. So, um, how do you think those two things play together like that? Focus and then the adaptability?

Speaker C: In my view, it's more important now than ever to have that flexible mindset in terms of what you want to do when you're older. Because things are changing at such a quick rate with technology like the Fourth Industrial Revolution. Um, it's pretty crazy. So I think everybody has got to have that flexible mindset, but you still got to be clear on your pillars of what you're really passionate about. And Dave is very clear on those in terms of media, radio, hosting, DJing, you know, potentially being a camera person, all of those things. But I think it is a bit of a cliche, but you can only really connect those dots when you look back on your career. And I think it may seem very squiggly and messy at the time, but one thing definitely leads to another and there is logic behind the madness. So I think you just have to embrace it. I think you really do have to lean into it. I think you just have to have a, A trust in the process that it's gonna end up in the right place for you, but still having a kind of a North Star on where you want to be. Um, so, yeah, that would be my takeaway.

Speaker B: Yeah, I know personally, it's not actually the adaptability and the kind of innovation, the change, that's a part where I'm actually more comfortable. It's the focus part that I find more difficult, um, in terms of there's so many opportunities and which ones to say yes to. And so that. And I think One of the reasons is that I have it in my head that everything's going to change, so why focus in on, like, that one thing? Because everything's going to change again. But the reality is that by focusing in on the particular things, you do a great job of that. You move yourself forward in that particular area. And, um, then new opportunities reveal themselves. And you've got to be ready for those new opportunities and to make the most of them. But that doesn't mean, like, don't jump in in the first place to anything.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: You've got to put yourself in that pole position in terms of that racing track. And if you're just driving loud, aimlessly, not really focused, then you're not going to put yourself in that top pole position.

Speaker B: Absolutely. Uh, what I thought was interesting is, um, the tenacity came out in this interview. Um, I felt like letter writing was such a theme in this interview, which was very interesting because we also just had Jordan in the last episode saying that he just emailed 20 people. And then, uh, Dave was talking about kind of all these letters he was writing as a teenager. Uh, but then he had all these, like, 75 rejection letters that he keeps as well. And so that idea of starting with your own creative ideas and sharing them with people and then allowing them to, you know, the right people to grasp onto them, and probably there are going to be a bunch of rejections in there as well.

Speaker C: There are. And actually going a bit old school and, you know, pen and paper and writing a handwritten letter. There's actually quite a big opportunity there for, uh, entrepreneurs if you want to reach the person. Nobody gets mail these days unless it's junk mail. So actually, you know, a letter landing in their place of work, uh, or at their home address, you know, nice handwriting on. I think actually, if you want to reach out and do cold outreach, actually it's a really good strategy. But, yeah, you've got to put yourself in the right environment. You've got to engineer your own luck at the end of the day. And I think Dave's done that really well.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And like you said, I think it's a mixture of that. I call it kind of strategic positioning. It doesn't feel strategic because it's literally just like, what matters to me, what am I passionate about? What direction do I want to go in? Like you said, where's that North Star? And how can I find the right people to align with that? And that was a theme in the last episode as well. And so I think that we can all Learn from that and having that focus and then using that focus to find the right people. And then once you're in it, like also knowing which opportunities to take and being ready to adapt at the right time. So another thing that I found very useful about this episode and some of the entrepreneurs we've spoken to have, um, talked about this before, but I think Dave showed a real understanding of what it is to manage a portfolio or a freelance career or, you know, a small business and all of those challenges that come along with it. And I think that it was very interesting that he has made a lot of choices that aren't about taking home the big bucks. It's about doing things his way. But then that means that you have to manage things for yourself as a freelancer. And I know so many people listening understand this so deeply and inherently because we're all doing this. Um, so in terms of that financial discipline, which Dave really highlighted how crucial that is. And I saw, it's so funny, his dad's voice in his head, um, kind of all the time being like, no, you need your pension. And then he's fighting against that, but also a part of him that's going, no, I do need to plan M for uncertainty. Um, how do we continue to manage this? And again, I think there's multiple things that we're fighting within ourselves and especially when we have to look after our own financial futures.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean if you're going into entrepreneurship for the big bucks, then you're going to be sadly disappointed in the short term anyway. Obviously over a 10 year cycle then anything is possible. But I think in, in the early years of running a business, like, yeah, you've got to be putting away 20% of your revenue for, uh, all of your corporation tax, personal tax, you've got to be saving, but also having a contingency buffer there for, uh, when things dry up. When you make assumptions like your best customers are just going to carry on working with you. And sometimes that isn't the case. It might be things you've done or it might be things out of your control, but you've always got to have a contingency plan in the world of business because you don't know what's around the corner. Um, and it's a hard one because as entrepreneurs we like to be optimistic, but we've got to pepper that with some cold, hard reality at the same time, which is what we try and do on this show. So I really like Dave's really practical, practical advice there on finances. When you're running a business, I mean, most founders I know in the early stages are paying themselves the, the minimum, the minimum threshold in terms of taxable income and then obviously paying dividends on top of that. But you're not going to be rich in the early days. Most entrepreneurs are, uh, reinvesting profits into growing their business. They're not taking money away, you know, going on fancy holidays. Like, there is a lot of sacrifice on the startup journey. Um, so if you are thinking of going to business, I think you've got to be really aware of that. And if you're already on the journey, then we don't need to preach to you.

Speaker B: And as you think, even, even as you're talking here and we're saying like in the early days, the reality is like, that future success isn't guaranteed when you're running your own business as well. So definitely in the early years, but you also need to be ready to know that you might end up, up closing your business. Um, you might end up in difficult situations there as well. So, like, you do not want to have yourself in the position where you are completely trapped financially. Um, it is important to give yourself those contingencies or that, or that buffer. Um, and an example kind of where I am at the moment, I'm, um, doing some changing and I've actually chosen to make some, some bold moves, I guess, in terms of where I want to go next, because I've kind of taken a look at things and a combination of the world changing and me changing and wanting to make those big decisions. I couldn't do that if I hadn't built up a buffer over time to then be like, maybe I'm not going to be bringing as much income over the next six months because I actually really want to stand my ground in terms of where I'm going next and not lose faith or suddenly get a bit scared because I haven't got that money in the. But if you know you've got a bit of a financial buffer, it also allows you to do those pivots or again, really lean into that future version of you or maybe that version of you that you really want to be, or the version of the business you really want to build.

Speaker C: Definitely exciting times ahead and the more options you have, the better it's going to be for you. And I think if you're building in that financial prudence and discipline into your business from the early stages, when the

Speaker D: times are good and you're bringing in

Speaker C: substantial revenue, then you're not going to be frivolous. With it, you're actually going to invest that wisely in the right places and then reward yourself later down the line. Short term pain, long term gain. I think that's what it's about. I think that 90% of businesses won't make it past the five year mark and that's the uh, reality of it. Uh, and I think there's not enough talked about insolvency, businesses closing down. Um, so maybe we should get a guest that does something in relation to that for a future episode.

Speaker B: Absolutely. And I, I've seen it. Um, and it's, and again we, you can, you can land a business in several different ways as well. And I think again, having the financial awareness is something that's going to allow you to land your business in a, in a healthy way versus like a crash and burn kind of way, which is you. Nobody wants to plan for that. I mean just like people want to plan for divorce or whatever, you know, um, but it is the reality. And um, so I think if you are building your business and living so on the financial edge in a way that's very uncomfortable for you and that's different for different people. Um, and you're not creating those buffers that's going to make life harder for you down the line. So just being aware that if you're doing that because you're like, yeah, but there's definitely going to be a payoff, there's not necessarily going to be that payoff. So be aware of that in the moment. I think, uh, the other thing and you said about investing, well in those early days, um, it's not just money. We invest and we talk a lot about kind of making sure that we're in alignment, finding good people that we're working with, thinking about our own strengths, um, and the network of people you have around you and the reputation you have built are a, ah, safety net for you as well. So can you talk a little bit more about how to ensure that you're kind of investing in the right people and that you're demonstrating the right skills with them and developing a good reputation with your network.

Speaker C: Reputation is everything in the world of business and life generally. You want to be associating and doing business with people that you admire, you look up to, that can add value, have got, got shared ethics, shared values. Like otherwise, what's the point at the end of the day, like if you're not in alignment, then the relationship is going to go south. And I think that the mistake that I see entrepreneurs making is trying to sometimes like forge too many partnerships. Sometimes partnerships are great if they work, but you can only have a handful of them. Otherwise it becomes a natural point of time where it's not working for one party, it's one way traffic and it's going to end badly. You talk about crashing and burning. That can happen with business partnerships as well. So it's about finding those people that you aspire to that can add value, uh, who are in your network or if they're not starting that conversation early because building relationships takes time.

Speaker B: It comes back to focus again as well, doesn't it? And one of the reasons I'm making some changes now is because I found that I was in a position where I'd overloaded myself and I was sort of that whole thing of saying yes to everything and obviously I thought it was manageable at the time. But then realizing you can't deliver, uh, well with every single one of those things that you're doing and then that has such a knock on effect to your reputation and your kind of belief in yourself as well and your self esteem if you're not showing up in a way that you know you want to show up in and that you're not delivering in a way that you think is effective and um, that showcases your skills and your strengths. So I definitely have experienced that firsthand. And again, that value of focusing and saying no to things and really finding those sweet spots in terms of your areas of passion and your strengths and your skills and then finding those partnerships that fit with that.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think saying no is a skill that you kind of learn quite well over time and you'll um, learn from experience of over committing yourself. Or just like the, the simple one for me is like if it's not a hell yes, like then it's probably a no. Yeah, you're probably just like wanting to be nice or just like trying to say yes to too many things. Like if you put it in your diary for three weeks time because you can't do it at the moment, then you know that that's gonna, those three weeks are gonna come around very quickly and then you've got the same situation. So yeah, don't just, just delay something by putting like future adding it to your diary. Yeah, just, just make known now and, and just give your, give it honest reason as well why it's not a good fit at the moment for you. Yeah, people will respect that rather than kind of stringing people along.

Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I think for me it's definitely. I still carry that fear even though I look back and go, uh, for many years now I've been in a relatively comfortable position in terms of like the amount of work that's coming in and everything else. You, you still carry that like early freelancer or early employee kind of days when you're like, does anyone want me? Is there any work?

Speaker C: Yeah, because the situation is so pertinent. Right. You're in that mindset, uh, of like critical, that flight or flight kind of mode of like Christ, like I need things to come off. And I think, yeah, once you've experienced that, you don't want to go back into that mindset because you can't think creatively, you can't think long term. You're just thinking about the next couple of months or weeks even depending on, on how severe the situation is and that you're definitely out of alignment with who you are.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker C: And also if you're not, like you said before about taking on too many opportunities, if you're not delivering the purpose and impact, then equally that can make you feel equally as bad.

Speaker B: 100%.

Speaker C: So yeah, it's about having the right focus. It's about not biting off more than you can chew. Definitely.

Speaker B: So Dave displayed this um, throughout everything that he was talking about and it sounds like in his career he has, as we've already discussed, been able to do this thing of being kind of focused but then adapting. And so he's moved from freelance media work to running multiple businesses and that did not happen in a straight line. And there's actually a lot more to the story than he shared in the first part, um, which kind of makes it make a little bit more sense. So I'm really keen to jump in to find out more about actually life, life changing experiences that shapes the way he approaches his businesses today.

Speaker D: So Dave, we just touched upon it about the two very different business models. One's all about people, consultancy, building relationships, maintaining them, growing those relationships, referrals, all of that B2B stuff. The second business is inherently scalable. It's a technology play, it's a SaaS business. So you're running two very different business models. How do you equip yourself with the skills needed for both?

Speaker A: Well, um, that is a challenge because you've got to double hat and on one day I'm working with my marketing consultant going right, how do we get more global players on board? How do we get this out there? Um, and that's an area I'm not an expert in. So that's a really good question Ollie, because the Thing you have to do is, uh, understand what you're good at and quite quickly say to yourself, where am I not an expert? So I think I'm pretty good at pr. I can do public relations, I understand public relations, um, and I understand how to go about doing that. And knowing that somewhere down the line you slowly build um, profile and you build trust through public relations. Marketing, I don't really get it. I uh, assume that marketing is if you are uh, launching a brand new car and you spend 5 million to 10 million pounds telling everybody about this new car, some people will buy it. I think it's that, um, but I'm not a marketing whiz and I need the marketing expertise. So it's quite quickly equipping yourself with understanding your shortcomings. And I say this in crisis media training to organizations as one of the most important things an organization must do in I think its emotional intelligence and its culture is to understand its own shortcomings and then knowing where to plug those holes and um, the people to bring in to do that. And you know what, that's what made Richard Branson a successful entrepreneur of what he calls a very interesting set of businesses. Quote this idea that he knows what he's good at, but he's also brilliant and his biggest talent is he knows how to bring in the right expertise around him. And the danger is wanting to do it all yourself and thinking you can do all these things. So I have to media train people day to day and put a day aside or half day aside or whatever it is, you know, for splutter in that week and find time for it, um, and then switch those hats. But I cannot do all of the things that Splutter requires all on my own myself because I don't have all the skills. So there's no point in me learning how to be a brilliant digital marketeer, um, when really it'd be better for me to bring somebody in who's got those skills, can do it far quicker and better than me. You know, I like designing things, designing social media posts and designing up stuff, um, using uh, online design tools. I'm rubbish at that. So why should, why would I waste time as an owner of two companies when I've got to focus on or doing all the other bits and running it and the strategy and a lot of the delivery. So that word equippers very interesting when you say that because it challenges, makes me think actually in some ways I have to equip myself with the um, strategic intelligence. And now to go I can't do everything and I mustn't do everything. Play it like Branson. Bring in the expertise, you know, uh, and the other thing is not to, um, extend yourself too thinly. You know, like if I'm starting Splutter and um, I've got my, my day job. When Mental media training is a successful business, it ticks over.

Speaker D: So in terms of it being a global tech startup, obviously inherently it can be scalable. So do you see in terms of growing the business, is that going to be based on revenue? Are you looking to take on outside investment? What's the, what's the strategy?

Speaker A: It's a mixture of two. Because I think over the next couple of years we've got to look at whether or not, um, there is opportunity for investment to scale that it can scale very easily simply by us getting a bunch of clients and woof. It scaled, um, a lot of its use has been traditionally over the last few years, piecemeal, where clients say, we want to hire you and we want to hire splatters. And what I want more of, of course, is we want a higher splutter. We don't need you. I mean, if somebody gets in touch and says, uh, Dave, we really don't need you, you won't be offended, will you? We just want a Splutter license. That is music to my ears. That's what I need to hear. And that's where we need to take it, um, with a view that, you know, potentially this, um, system is ripe for disposal at some point. And I've even had interest in that. So I've had approaches from people going, you can sell this business, um, because there are a lot of people who are interested in this kind of tech right now. So there's a few directions we can go in with it. And I think the main thing is after something where we've been involved in the world's biggest crisis exercise in the last year, um, in the financial sector is, uh, to look at, um, maximizing that and actually making the most of where we've been with that, ah, in order to um, grow it and bring more people to see its benefits. Because there's lots of global PR firms. We had somebody contact us, uh, the other day saying, um, this is exactly what we need. We've been saying for three years we need to build one of these kind of simulators and you've already got one. So that conversation is underway. It's just, we have to make it famous and it's not famous enough yet. And that's Always the challenge. Because that comes down to marketing and PR and the word getting out there that you have this incredible, uh, system that is entirely scalable and it's actually a system that organizations themselves can make money out of. And here's the rub on that, by the way. If we just expand this conversation out, PR agencies are going to feel, I think globally, a pretty tough squeeze with AI in the next couple of years. If 40% of all AI. Sorry, 40% of all the PR function of writing and scheduling and copywriting, all the rest of it, monitoring the, um, day to day functions of public relations could be done by AI by 2023. We're already past, we've already crossed the Rubicon on that the next couple of years. If, as some suggest, there might be a global slowdown or if there is a turndown, then, um, public relations agencies may be looking to make savings and change jobs and pivot and all the rest of it. And we know what, we live in a more more volatile world where there are more corporate crises, there are more hacks coming from foreign state actors, there's more cybersecurity issues. My prediction here can be that we've got more crises, more corporate issues going on. Pr, global agencies and other PR agencies should be pivoting to managing crisis more. We are in what somebody once called a Vuca world, a Vucca world, being a volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous. It was a terrible kind of phrase, but it was a good one in business, I thought at the time.

Speaker D: Definitely. And just to bring that into, I suppose, context as well, for season five of this podcast, founded and grounded. We're actually sponsored by the National Protective Security Authority. Bit of a mouthful, the mpsa. Um, the reason for that is that they are trying to protect UK startup innovation for tech founders here in the uk. And that is from state actors, corporate espionage. And we are living in a very volatile world.

Speaker A: Yeah, we are.

Speaker D: Um, so, yeah, as you say, going back to your point, it can be potentially a revenue stream for PR agencies.

Speaker A: Splutter in itself is a revenue stream for a PR agency looking to pivot to do more crisis stuff and thinking our clients want this more. This is a need they can license from us and so they can, um, wholesale from us and they can retail splutter to their clients. But, and I've heard this, I am a member of the Chartered Institute of Public Relations. I'm a trainer for them as well. So all of the training that I do in our business is aligned to national best practice in the uk. I don't Pull stuff off a shelf and go. I think this is what training should be. I mean, I'm part of an institute and so was my predecessor and we're always sharing best learning and practice. And because AI poses threats and opportunities, and we've talked about this here on founded and Grounded, um, today, um, there is no question that in the next year or two, the threats posed by AI, global downturns, cybersecurity and all these other threats that you have to spot through good risk management are going to be right up there. And business needs to cope and it's slow and the PR industry needs to respond swiftly, but it's slow. I don't believe that across the board it's quick enough in doing it and it hasn't been. It's always been. I've heard other people say PR industry is a bit like a, ah, super tanker being quick enough to jump onto things. And yet here we have a system that, you know, actually is perfect for that industry to really grab that and go, we can get out in front with this. And that's what they're always telling their clients to do.

Speaker D: Well, it's a vehicle for them to do that, isn't it?

Speaker C: Make that change and, and get up

Speaker D: to speed, which is fantastic.

Speaker A: It's a potential retail product for them that they can really spot what's coming down the track in the next couple of years. Um, so I believe we're going into a period where splutter really should be a part of that zeitgeist. It's a zeitgeisty feeling thing.

Speaker D: Moving tracks slightly. Dave. So we talked about your feeling. Three months of running your business and the whole world stopped. And you got that afternoon of emails saying we're canceling the media training and you literally went white. You didn't know what to do. M on the floor. It took yourself, you know, at least 48 hours to pick yourself back up. So we're all about reality here on founded and grounded. So, I mean running a business can definitely be all consuming at times. I'm sure you found that personally. Can you talk to me about a, ah, sacrifice that you've made along your journey in the world of business that's either made consciously or subconsciously.

Speaker A: Salary. It's the first one.

Speaker C: Yep.

Speaker A: I don't pay myself enough and, uh, I'll be. And you want honesty here, don't you? So, you know, I run a personal overdraft. I think one of the people on Dragon's Denmont said that though. Anyway, um, I feel skin. So I feel like asset wise, you know, that's good, doing okay. And I'm not complaining about this, but you talk about sacrifice. I think I could do what I do and um, bring my expertise to a global PR firm and they would pay me, I think potentially, you know, six figures plus. Yeah, easily worth six figures plus now on the kind of stuff I'm bringing to the level of people I work with, you know, when C suite people ring me up before they go on a national TV show to go, am I on the right track here? And uh, I'm giving guidance to the shoulder of somebody whose reputation as the head of an organization I'm supporting before that. That's six figure kind of advice plus. So my sacrifice has been in what I earn because I am bugger all.

Speaker D: Well, I'm really glad that you've mentioned that Dave, because lots of founders listening to this show will be in a similar position.

Speaker A: Is that too honest?

Speaker D: They will be, you know, very successful in terms of what they did in terms of their career, but they've decided to, you know, do something bold, brave, make a change and start their own business. But in the early days in particular, you can't take much money out the business because you want to reinvest it in terms of the profits and obviously grow the business. So you've got to really like what you're doing and be passionate about it because there's things that you're going to have to forego as a business owner. But um, how does that, how does that kind of play out in terms of the feeling of being, being a person and you know, feeling that maybe you should be earning more money?

Speaker A: Well, I think you're going to start getting to the heart of this now because there's. Everything in life, as you learn, is one. Everything in life is politicized. Now if you work for a company, your own life, everything that you look around you, conversations with your friends about stuff, we live in a polarized, volatile, uncertain world where opinions to friends in America can be really polarized about what's happening in America right now. So you have politicization, but you also have, have um, this whole situation of um, trade off. And everything in life as you go through business is a trade off. If I do that and I look at the politics of me doing that couple down, you know, a couple opportunity cost as well. Absolutely. I take a six figure salary with that firm, um, they own my ass. And they could say to me Monday morning, we want you working on the other side of the world. And I'M going, but that's the day I take my daughter to school and actually I have to be back because I pick up my daughter and I take her to a rock school thing in the evening and it's like then you are absolutely owned and you also get burnout. So here are the other trade offs. Your own health. And I know what that's like to feel like having burnout because I've had lots of situations where I've nearly had many breakdowns because I was working too hard and burning the candle at both ends. In my 20s, in a media career of doing six radio shows a week, week, you know, day and night and then going out on the town after and hitting it hard. I had a very large 20s and 30s and hopefully I don't have a large prostate right now, but that's probably over sharing. But so large twenties, um, uh, uh, you know, if you look at this. But I was a 60s baby, 70s child, 80s teenager, 90s, 20 something, hitting hard 30s in my 30s it was kind of in the noughties. Um, and you're sort of getting into that final third of my career now going, do I want to take the big corporate buck and um, be owned by somebody else or do I want to manage that and sometimes say no? And the great thing about I suppose not earning the big bucks but being able to say I am my own boss, I can say no to certain jobs and organizations because I don't ethically agree with that. I had somebody asking us earlier this year about doing some presentation and I training for them and I looked into them and I couldn't work. I just thought I can't do that, I'm not working with them. I don't want to support their messaging. So I said, politely declined. So now you can say no to things. Now you can. Um, there are trade offs as I say, with the financial side of that. But um, I'm much happier knowing that I own my destiny and I'm not going to make myself sick by the overwork because somebody else is telling me I need you to do a 70 hour week this week because we've got a big thing working up. Um, and me being so super stressed because it was stressful doing night shifts for 10 years in breakfast television, turning things around. I've done that hardcore stress where you've got someone screaming over your shoulder, will it make the 8 o' clock news? It's on in a minute. And me going, yes, it'll make, just let me do it and we'll be fine. And you're sitting, trying to make your report, make the news. Um, and your cortisol and stress hormone levels are raging and I had that for years. It can make you really sick. So you really got to start looking after your mental and physical health and it's all combined and nutrition. And I'm much more focused on all of those things now.

Speaker D: Now. Amazing.

Speaker A: And they're more important than a six figure salary by far.

Speaker D: 100% agree with that.

Speaker A: And I'm somebody who's over 50 now.

Speaker D: Your health is your wealth, ultimately.

Speaker A: Health. I love that. It's so true. If you don't, health is your worth. If you've got your health, you're a millionaire.

Speaker D: And Dave, talking of sort of well being and mental health, and we had a chat earlier about some of the events in your career which ultimately led to you getting ptsd, which you obviously have had treatment, treatment for and come out the other side of that. And this comes with a bit of a trigger warning. And please only share what you're feeling comfortable to share with us on this show. But can you tell me about the circumstances of getting PTSD and how you were held hostage?

Speaker A: I was, yes. It was um, summer of 2006. The circumstances aren't wildly different to how they are now with Israel, um, bombing Lebanon and Hezbollah, um, firing Katusha rockets into, um, southern Israel, uh, especially into Haifa. And how did this all come about? I was a producer journalist at ah, um, gmtv, now known as Good Morning Brin gmb. Um, and there was a weekend and the um, senior bods were going, right, we need our chief correspondent Richard Gaisford to go out to, um, Beirut, uh, is anyone free to go with him? And it was almost look around the newsroom and point at people. And it was a bit like that. Um, and I got a phone call saying, look, no one's free to go. Dave, you know, you've done this kind of thing before. M. Do you want to go out? Well, I hadn't. And I also hadn't been put through the, um, hostile environment training course which all journalists are supposed to have. But they said, oh, it's all right, just, you know, ask a few questions of your collar, you'll be all right. And I was sent a helmet and a press flak jacket that you see very heavy, and sent a car and sent off to war. And we got there. The first four days were fine. Uh, basically it was an operation to evacuate the most number of British nationals that had ever been evacuated since World War II on British warships. In, uh, an operation they called Operation Highbrow. These names are always very interesting, funny. Um, from the port of Beirut out to Cyprus and then back to the UK and lots of Lebanese people had, uh, British passports and dual passports and that sort of thing. So it's really getting as many families out of Beirut as possible that had UK passports. We covered that for the first three days. Then our editor at the time of the program got bored because it was just the same pictures of ships coming and going. I mean, the BBC were camped down there, so were our colleagues. And we were at a hotel, um, on Sea Bridge, very nice one, um, camped with. With. We were with our colleagues from Channel 4 News and ITV News because they were all part of itn. The same organization runs both news. So we were there as well. So we would all sit together and swap notes at night and all the rest of it. And we had a fixer, um, called Heber, and she was, um, very good. She had a car, she had a Mercedes she was driving us around in. And I think ITN had hired her or something. Um, and she had a student friend as a translator with her. And the next day we said to some of the other guys that were journalist friends of ours from Channel 4 on ITV that I think tomorrow we're going to go up into town and do something different. Heber here has told us that there's a humanitarian crisis unfolding in this very posh square. So it's a big green space, like a park with nice apartments all around it. And if you go up there, check in with the Red Cross, the Red Cross will guide you to places where you can talk to families who are bottle feeding babies on blankets under these trees. Uh, and they've been bombed out their homes by Israel in southern Lebanon. So we said, that sounds like a really good way to move this story on and to show another side of what's going on in Beirut. We sold the story back to the office in London. They're going, yeah, great, go and do that. So he went up there and I was filming, uh, my correspondent Richard, um, interviewing families and children and all the rest of it to show this other side of the story and how much worse it was getting for people and how we would never go back to their homes again. They weren't going to have the benefit of getting on these ships and getting out. So as we left, we get into the car and he was driving us in her, uh, Mercedes to the end of the road. And suddenly all these mopeds just dive in front of Us. And these are what you would call low level Hezbollah operatives. They're spotters, basically. And they, we said, we're journalists. And they got around the car and said, no, you're not your spies. They thought, and this is where your blood runs cold. And you think, oh, this is now taking a different turn. They told her that they thought we were Mossad. Um, Israeli spies using cameras to film the buildings so that. That Mossad Israeli operatives could come and laser pen them. And, you know, these guided, Laser guided weapons, I mean, that's why they're called that. Laser guided weapons can't hit their targets unless you have, uh, basically secret, um, service, um, like SAS type, um, operatives working behind those, what would be enemy lines secretly marking buildings in those countries. So when you hear about, um, British Special Forces and other Special Forces operating in other countries, you think what they actually do, a lot of the time they're going in undercover. Um, this is all of the sides of this and going up to certain targets and marking them literally with a laser guided, like a laser pen. They thought that we were filming the buildings to send back so that Special Forces could mark them for them to be bombed. And that was the level of paranoia on the streets, bearing in mind that across the road from there, there were shops, offices, people going about their daily business. Everything was normal in downtown Beirut. You would hardly know other than this deep bass thud in your chest every so often from the sound of a bomb five kilometers away, two, three miles away, hitting stone 11. You just hear this boom, boom. The sound of bombing is really strange when you know what that properly feels like, um, going on not that far away. Other than that, you wouldn't know that there was any difference. And we were cutting around the city, no problem. And it was, uh, behaving, you know, downtown Beirut was fine. These guys get in front. And then what unfolded there was this most horrendous 45 minutes of fighting for our lives where the door would open and they would try and pull my colleague out by his hair there and wrench him out the car to kill him. And I had, I had my arms around him, holding him by the waist to stop him being. He had two small children at the time. I wasn't a father at the time. He had two small children at home. And then the window opened and, um, I was trying to remonstrate with the guy saying, look, here's my. I have a BBC pass as well. I took that with me from just to show ID to show that you're a British journalist as well as my ITV1. And I just got punched in the face. That all got stolen from me. My camera got ripped out, my hands. They tried to strangle. I had some like, Glastonbury festival beads around my neck. I remember them twisting them and trying to strangle me with them. So I quickly took them off, um, very quickly. And they just, you know, took everything out of our hands. There were hands going in our pockets, um, trying to prove that we were Mossad spies. Terrifying. And then I don't know if you've ever been in a protest situation. We've had riots in Britain. I know you have to stay away from any inkling that something like that is happening. You get out of there straight away. Because I remember seeing m, uh, being at the May Day riots once in London. And there's almost a crackle in the air where you can feel the tension goes from people protesting and shouting, but you can almost smell and taste and sense when it turns to anger.

Speaker C: It's a sixth sense.

Speaker A: It is a sixth sense, Ollie. And it's really hard to describe, but you just know it. Almost like the air changes and you go, oh, the air's turned ugly and this crowd has turned. Honestly, that happened here. And then they were jumping on the roof of the car, chanting, and the car was getting rocked and then they started to rip bits off the car. And then this is the bit that I dealt with in the PTSD when I went for the treatment. My car door opened and that's when I thought I was going to die. And Richard held onto me and they were punching me and they tried to pull us out the car. And there was a situation with two British soldiers in Northern Ireland in 1988 where their car went down, a wrong turning, and they were pulled from the car and beaten to death. And we knew of this story. Um, it's not that hard for that to happen in those circumstances. You take a wrong turn. We held on in the back of that car for our lives for 45 minutes is the longest time of my life. And you know that thing of them, if you have a near death experience, they say, um, it all slows down. I can absolutely confirm that's true. It does all slow down. So you would think that you were dying in some kind of, um, slow motion. It definitely, definitely goes into slow motion. Your body does something. It does a weird thing.

Speaker D: So it's like.

Speaker A: So that's like an out of body experience. But Heba, who I've mentioned, I have to mention her because she saved our lives. She Put the car keys down her knickers. Because the guys were saying, give us the car keys. We're gonna drive these guys to southern Lebanon. The plan was they were gonna tie us up in the buildings and leave us there to be bombed. So we would get a taste of the medicine that they thought we were meting out to them. We weren't. We were trying to tell the story of the Red Cross. And these display displaced, um, homeless people. Um, so in the end, after 45 minutes, some heavy guys with guns part the ways, and 40 people around our car who've got our stuff, got our id, um, all raging, very, very angry looking white. It's getting more and more angry, and no one's coming to help. Eventually, a police officer comes over like a traffic cop with a gun, and he gets in the car to try and stop us being pulled from the car. And he sat down, sat on me, and I went, you can't sit on me, mate. I need the toilet. I needed the loo. So I said, don't sit on me, please. Um, and we were going, fire your gun into the air. They said, no, if he fires a gun into the air, a lot of these people have got guns. This is going to be bloodshed. So he didn't. Eventually, um, the people that are there, they part, and these guys come through in a white shirt, jump in the car. Next thing, the car keys have been given to us, to them. The car keys have been given to one of these guys, and they drive us at high speed through the streets of Beirut. And we are now in a full hostage kidnap, high speed situation like you're in a movie, can't make it up. And I'm going, who are these guys? And, um, Heber goes, it's okay, they're senior Hezbollah. Um, when we get to the traffic lights, is it okay if I just jump out and go and get help? They're like, don't do that one. You'll die. And these other guys that are chasing after us on, um, mopeds, they'll kill you. So stay in the car and always, you know, stay in the car, she said, and anyway, these senior Hezbollah guys, they're here to save you. They've had word that you're actually are journalists, and they're trying to take you somewhere safe. So they took us to the local Hezbollah mayor, um, home. And as we got out of the car, but we didn't know this at the time, we're still in the car, they said, get out and stand by that wall. So I'm now told to stand up against the wall. So he knew what I thought was coming next. And they're all packing sidearms and we're shaking and we just don't know what's going on. So I'm looking at Richard, he's just going, stay calm, stay calm. We'll be fine. We're taking him to the house. And the only moment I knew I was okay was when I saw small children, um, because they wouldn't do anything to us in front of children, I'm sure. And they were lovely and his wife was there. And, um, the Lebanese version of who Wants to Be a Millionaire was on the tv. It's ridiculous, the things that you remember and recall in these circumstances that you're looking for a normal. And we'd been punched and bloodied, so they told us to go and clean up. And my clothes were ripped and my shorts were ripped. So we do all that. Um, and then this guy's with a gun. They're going, what do we do? What do we do? The next thing we know, these blacked out limos turn up and they're going, right, you're going with these guys. We said, we're not going anywhere unless we know where we're going and who these people are. And they said, they're going to take you to safety. They are the Secret Service. And what people don't understand about, we hear a lot about, uh, organizations like Hezbollah, which are a proscribed terror organization around the world, is that in one sense you could be at the mercy of them. And yes, they fire rockets and they kill people because they feel they're at war on the streets of Beirut. An organization like that, that saved our lives. So it's very interesting. The world is not as black and white as we think it is. And equally in Beirut, where you have mosques right next to Christian churches, so it's one of the most well integrated, um, cities in the world where Christians and Muslims live right next door. Um, many of the brothers and family members of Hezbollah are, uh, in the police, the security services. So Hezbollah handed us over to their friends in the security services and we were taken to a police station, whereupon all our stuff magically appeared. And the police sergeant said to me, you know, our brothers in Hezbollah, they're not so bad. And I'm going, well, you know, I'm a journalist. I'm m listening to what you're saying. They've saved our lives. So no argument from me. Yeah, I know what they're doing. Chucking bombs into Israel but you know, there was a PR thing for them in saving our lives as well. They didn't want the blood of two British journalists trying to tell a story on their hands. So we were handed over to the police. They interviewed and interrogated us separately. They put us back into two blacked out limos. And guess what happened next? Ridiculous. We were taken to meet the President and the Prime Minister of the country at the palace, the um, presidential palace in Beirut. We're like, we can't go in and meet the Prime Minister. Um, his name was Fouad Sanora. Never forget. He said, well, first of all, you're going to meet the Interior Minister, which is like your Home Secretary. He said, then you're going to meet the um, information Minister who's going to apologize to you. Then we think the Prime Minister is going to come in and say hi. Um, and he did. And he went, I'm so sorry that's happened to you. Please carry on with your work. It's very important what you do as independent journalists. We went, that's great. He said, can I get anything for you? And I said, well, I'd love to phone my partner and tell her that I'm okay.

Speaker D: Get me home.

Speaker A: Can you get me home? They said no. And he said, this is absolutely true. I said, I need to phone my, my now wife Julia and tell her that I'm okay. So he said, use my phone. So I, he handed, it was one of the, it was a dumb phone, not a smartphone. 2006. He passed me his phone to make a call and I'm trying to get my wife's. And I said, do you have to dial 9 to get an outside line on this? To the Prime Minister of Lebanon. Couldn't make it up. So we're there with him. And then he goes, he takes the phone back off me and my wife is in the box tunnel just uh, outside of Bath and didn't get the message properly. She didn't know what was going on. She thought we'd gone and done an interview with him. And um, he turns around and goes, right, guys, sorry now, gotta go. I'm going off to see Kofi Annan to sort out the rest of the war. Who was the Secretary General of the UN at the time.

Speaker D: I mean. M. Dave, thank you for unbelievable. Sharing that, that story as well. It's can't be easy. Sorry it's a bit long, but it's

Speaker A: hard to tell in two minutes.

Speaker D: No. And the details matter as well. And like you say, the world, world isn't so black and white. There's a lot of gray, there's a lot of nuance. And I find that in the world of entrepreneurship as well, it's not. This says that. And things can contradict one another as well. So thank you for telling us the full story there. I mean, sort of decompressing it and reflecting back since 2006. What do you kind of take from it?

Speaker A: Resilience. Um, and the fact that anyone who has been in a car accident or had something happen in their family where you, um, might react into certain circumstances and find that you, um, are angry or you can't understand why you feel triggered by certain situations, please, please, please go and get, um, treatment for post traumatic stress. They call it disorder, but it's pts and it was a disorder that I had. And I had six hotspots that the therapist helped me with. And he was a former journalist, brilliant guy from the DART center, um, called Mark Brain. Does wonderful work, um, and there's a terrific treatment, um, that he did where, um, they play blips and it's um, desensitization and reprogramming treatment where he takes you through these hotspots and he gets the unconscious side of your brain to talk to the conscious side of your brain. Developed in the 80s in America. And you put like headphones on and you hear beeps, alternative beats going in each ear. You may have heard of this. And then he takes you through these hotspots and you relive it, and then he closes them up and treats you. And I promise after a few months of this, if it's a car crash or something, or you've worked in the military, whatever that might be, you've got something triggering. This probably saved me because, you know, afterwards I was in a bad way. Um, and it can lead to risky behavior, you know, um, substance abuse, relying too much on things like alcohol, m. And it can absolutely destroy your life and your relationships if you don't get treatment for it. But the treatment is there and it's really, really good. Um, and I'm very, very grateful that I got that, uh, treatment because I came out the other side. And then in a way, it informed my crisis work as well. I understand a bit about the world and some of its ground level politics that you don't always hear in binary news reports actually reporting on the ground and being there. And part of something than that, uh, I think stays with you forever. You learn something about people, even the people that save your life, who on any other day would be regarded the enemy of the state. Actually I wouldn't be here now if it wasn't for Hezbollah. And that is an indisputable fact. So I think treatment, um, and I've worked a lot with, um, the armed forces and met m people who have had ptsd. And I've pleaded with them, um, when I've seen them after some of the training exercises going on, saying, please get that treatment. And we don't do enough in this country for our, uh, armed forces, armed, um, services personnel who come home from these situations. We've been terrible at leaving them and it still isn't good enough. That's one thing to take away.

Speaker B: Wow, what amazing stories from navigating high stakes management buyouts, surviving a terrifying hostage situation. Dave has been through a lot and I think that has given him a unique perspective on resilience. There's so much to unpack in this part from kind of how he now balances the two businesses. But really I want to have a look at that kind of surprising way that that crisis can shape leadership. And again, what's coming out loud and clear in this interview is this idea of crisis as an opportunity and talking about the Vucca, uh, world. Um, and so if anyone didn't catch it in the interview, vucca, uh, stands for volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous. And the reality is this is the world that we do live in. Right. So we are going to find ourselves not necessarily in hostage situations in Beirut, but there are going to be situations that happen where there is uncertainty, where we don't know what's happening. And so being able to lead, and obviously that's what entrepreneurs have to do in these situations is an incredibly important thing. Uh, what this brought up for me is I'm really into quantum leadership theory. And quantum leadership theory comes from the idea that an organization is a complex adaptive system. So as we were talking about this and talking about the complexity and the uncertainty, I was like, oh, this is where quantum leadership can help. Now obviously, if you've been through a crisis that is, um, traumatic in any way, first and foremost you need to get help. And I think that that's something that

Speaker C: Dave, he was very clear on, wasn't he?

Speaker B: Yeah. And that therapy was really important for him. And I mean, yes, his situation was extreme, but I think even if you've been through other situations and you might be thinking, yeah, but I wasn't held hostage and wasn't fearing for my life, uh, in the Middle East.

Speaker C: But it's lots of different forms.

Speaker B: Exactly. So I think first and foremost get that, help work through it. You're going to carry these things until you do the work. Um, but then I was like, okay, what we all really need to do is develop these skills. And it is the reason I like the quantum leadership approach because as entrepreneurs you are always in these complex adaptive systems and it only becomes more complex as you make more money and employ more people and everything else. So I just wanted to run through the kind of the principles or the things that you can work on if you are in that role, as anybody who's listening here is likely to be in these roles. So. So funnily enough, the very first principle is self awareness, which is something that came up really strongly in our last interview. So self awareness, incredibly important. Vision and value led. Um, so as we were just talking about in the last part, if you've got that North Star, yes, different things are going on, but you'll be able to keep that thread going. Being able to respond to, uh, be spontaneous to, being able to respond to situations, um, and actually embracing that instead of kind of being, are scared of that as like, oh, that means a lack of control. No, this is part of the world. Can we be spontaneous, um, and take up new opportunities whilst keeping that vision and values in our sphere of reference? Um, I'm not going to go through all of these, um, because you can go and look it up on the Internet and I'll be talking here for ages. But I think another couple of things I wanted to bring out were humility. Uh, so obviously that's a trait we talk about a lot of asking fundamental questions, continuing to be curious as an entrepreneur, I think is really important. Celebration of diversity. So knowing that kind of different viewpoints are going to be really, really important as you're building something that's a complex system, um, a positive use of adversity. And this is the one that made me really think about this because I was like, oh, crisis is an opportunity. Um, yeah, how do we reframe things? How do we take those crises and reframe them and then having compassion as we go through that process as well. And I'm sure I've talked about compassion from my perspective before on, on this podcast. But just as a reminder, ah, compassion has four pillars. Um, so it's not just like being kind of sweet and kind and empathetic. It's um, kindness is part of it, but it's also courage, strength and wisdom. So that, that's all about not only having, you know, being able to see things through other people's eyes. And treating people with kindness, but also being wise enough to make the right decisions, being strong enough to actually enact those, and then courageous enough to do things that might be difficult or scary, but that are taking you along the right path. So I just thought I would bring those up, um, as kind of different principles that we can. It'd be nice to think about as somebody who's an entrepreneur or if you're in a leadership position. And I know that we're constantly feeling a little bit like. Like chaotic, and how do I deal with these situations? But for me, developing some of those traits and focusing on, well, how can I be more compassionate in this moment? Or how can I, um, kind of actually embrace spontaneity? It's a hard one. How can we do this? Um, I think that those things can be really helpful to, again, reframe maybe difficult situations.

Speaker C: I love a framework. So, yeah, the quantum leadership is brilliant. So do go and look that up online, um, to get a bit more information. But I think, yeah, taking some of those concepts and working out how you can build on them is really important because being a good entrepreneur is about constantly learning, constantly developing, constantly leveling up your skills. And, yeah, I think, you know, you know, the grit and the resilience and, you know, the thick skin that Dave has developed is absolutely incredible. I mean, it's a story that you kind of heard maybe on a documentary, but actually I was there, sat opposite him, being told it in person, and now you're. You're listening to it, and it's, um. I don't know how I would react to a situation like that. Christ, it's, um. How do you pick yourself back up? Like, my. My hat really goes off today because you know that that's gonna have lots of repercussions. And he's. He's processed it and he's dealt with it, and. And he's now using that experience to his advantage, but actually to, you know, using that as an opportunity to grow personally and professionally.

Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, as he was describing it, it felt so, um, visceral still. So it's interesting that he's able to, like you said, as he describes it, is kind of. He has moved on and he's worked through it, but it's still just as somebody listening in feels terrifying. And to have gone through something where your life is at risk like that. Um, and I think he said something along the lines of, um, talked about his blood running cold. And I was thinking about that, and I was thinking, I don't know, that I've been in that situation, actually, and of course I haven't been in that situation, but. Yeah. He therefore has experienced things that put a lot of things into perspective. Um, and so when he's then talking about hate on social media and that kind of thing, I'm guessing that having gone through something that is as life threatening, it also helps to put other things in perspective. Yeah. And allows you to be more pragmatic. And therefore he's able to help other people do that too.

Speaker C: Dave knows more than most people that the world isn't so black and white. There's a lot of gray there. And how you react to situations really defines who you are as a person.

Speaker B: I actually, um, heard something once about how people who became more resilient during the blitz and how being close to life and death scenarios, but actually surviving them is something that makes people actually stronger. Ultimately, it can make you feel a little bit more, um, invincible might be too extreme or too much of a word, but that's something that, that was found with survivors. And of course, actually the percentage of people that did survive compared to those that unfortunately died during the blitz was, Was large. Like most people. A lot of people did make it through. Um, and so they were saying that that's why you got this spirit of kind of people coming together and building community and working together to make things happening and happen and realize that you can build and you can rebuild and some of the worst things can happen around you, and yet you've got it in you to live through that and rebuild. So, you know, something as small as building a business or whatever compared to life and death scenarios, it does start to put it in perspective when you think about it in that way.

Speaker C: But we are superhuman and you just don't know it yet. And I think when situations happen and that in Dave's case, it really comes to fruition.

Speaker B: M. I want to circle back around to something we were just talking about in the last part as well, but expand on it a bit more. We are superhuman. That doesn't always mean we're rich. And I love that. Um, Dave was basically like, I earned bugger all. Because it also highlights what we were talking about in that last section and busting that myth that entrepreneurship is an easy route to money. Um, the part I wanted to pick up on is that the sacrifice part might be the money, but the thing you're sacrificing it for is if you do it well, and if you do keep that perspective in mind is your health, is that you can do things in a way that works for you, that you're not going to make yourself sick by kind of having to work for other people in a way that works for those other people, but it's perhaps completely wrong for you. So that money kind of being a trade off and of course money in itself is something that people might make themselves sick over. But um, that trade off was something that came off really strong in, in day in what Dave was talking about. And I just loved his, his sentence about if you've got your health, you are a millionaire. And it's definitely something that I resonate with because I've got an autoimmune condition and being neurodivergent as well. Like I think there's definitely been times in my life where my health has been incredibly, has felt difficult. Definitely not been through the worst of things, but I've had definitely some difficult times with my health and it's, it's sort of the non negotiable now and it's how I'm able to move on from situations that aren't so good quite quickly because you're just like, it's not worth it, it's not worth risking your health and you'll figure out other things to do with, with money and everything else. But yeah, your health is everything.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: I mean a sick person only wants one thing, right?

Speaker A: Mhm.

Speaker C: And um, if you've got your health then if you've got everything else, uh, it's a non negotiable. Like you say, you've got to be looking after yourself. And I think that is the great thing about being a business owner is that you can work your day around whether you want to do networking meetings whilst having a walk or getting up early and getting some sunlight or doing a gym session at lunchtime time or what, whatever it is, whatever is your lifestyle choice, you can build your business around that. And that is really the great thing is you don't have to conform or fit into a square box. Like that is the, the trade off with entrepreneurship, like the money won't come straight away, but that there are these other amazing things that you can embrace and lean into and if you value them then you're going to be a happy person.

Speaker B: Yeah. Something I've been experiencing recently, which I think I have experienced before, but I hadn't really felt it in the same way, is guilt. Um, and I know I've kind of heard lots of other entrepreneurs talking about this. So this, this guilt of not um, maybe not working or. So for example, I've Just got a schedule at the moment, which means that I've got a couple of very, very long days and then I therefore feel, feel absolutely wiped out, um, after those days and I might end up like sleeping in a little bit later and I don't start kind of doing things until a little bit later in the day. And I know to give myself that rest and I know that I need it, but I've been struggling quite a lot with that feeling of I should be doing something, I should be doing this. And again, I kind of know that those shoulds, uh, that's not real.

Speaker C: Whose should is it?

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And it's so interesting how. And I think, um, the reason it's having an impact on me and making me feel that way is because I have said yes to too many things and it's like, yeah, so it is interesting that probably that I'm not getting enough rest and I don't have enough space is the reason that my mind is not able to then kind of process this in the right way. And so I think that's just another heads up really for entrepreneurs.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: And you see stuff online about the hustle and working 247 and doing 70 hour, uh, weeks and you know, it's a load of rubbish. It's not sustainable. Like you can go through stints of doing that for weeks, maybe even months at a time potentially. But it's, your health is going to take a toll. And then you haven't got your health, you haven't got anything else, you haven't got your business. So it is a hard one. I personally struggle with it as well. It's like that, that, that feeling of guilt. I think the way of trying to overcome it is just trying to be a bit more kinder to yourself. Um, and it's a hard thing to do and it's a skill that you have to, to develop. Um, but yeah, just everyone, don't be so hard on yourself.

Speaker B: Yeah, for me that's about catching those thoughts. Like it's so easy to find yourself saying things to yourself that you would never say to anyone else. Anyone else. Um, and I think that that's important. And also for me, having those thoughts is often a sign that I am doing too much. And it's one, it is one of the reasons why I'm making shifts now as well. I was lucky enough to, to host a book launch of a book called the Burnett Doctor. Um, yeah. And so that I read the whole book very quickly and I went from feeling like I was quite healthy to like, oh, that's what's going on. But one of the things that one of the exercises in that book is to take note of what are your. Both your psychological and physiological responses. And I know for me, that psychological thing of suddenly realizing, oh, you've been talking to yourself in a way that is not very healthy and not how you would want to talk to each other. It's time to shift things. Like you're already in a place where. Yeah, it's not so healthy. So let's make some changes.

Speaker D: Yeah.

Speaker C: And I think if you're noticing that awareness piece is obviously the first step and then you can obviously rewire and change your response to that over time. But yeah, first is that acknowledgement. Right?

Speaker B: Yeah. And we talked earlier about kind of having experience and over time and knowing what to say no to and how to say no. And I think the thing I've noticed is despite the fact I kind of definitely have patterns that I fall into, my awareness is a lot better now, so I can make changes a lot more quickly. And so then things don't really have an impact in the same way as they would have done in the past and you don't spiral as much.

Speaker C: You've spotted those old behaviors and cut them in their tracks.

Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So hopefully that's also things. I mean, I feel like self awareness is now becoming a theme over the last couple of episodes. Episodes. But I think that's why it's so important to know yourself. It's not, it's not that you're never going to go through these situations or find yourself in places where you want to make changes, but it's like just seeing that and making those changes and doing what you need to do for yourself.

Speaker C: Yeah. And it's not like you're never going to think those things ever again either. It's like just acknowledging and changing your thought pattern around it.

Speaker B: Exactly. So going back to Dave, we've talked a lot about his career journey now and that transition into the entrepreneurship, his incredible resilience and how going through crisis has enabled him to kind of build that resilience even further. Now I'm really excited to listen in on maybe some of the more big picture questions. Um, so what's next for the media industry? How AI is changing the game? And get Dave's hard earned advice for entrepreneurs who are navigating today's landscape. Landscape.

Speaker D: Dave, we were talking earlier about the media landscape and how it's changed over the years. What trends do you kind of foresee coming up over the next Five years.

Speaker A: Uh, I think if there is, and I mentioned this slightly before, if there's a downturn in the global um, economy and it could start with America next year, we're seeing slowdowns in this country because of of Labour's talk around the 22 billion pound black hole. We are going to see AI being used for reducing jobs in the digital sector as well. But the problem with that is AI is only as good as the way it's trained by the expertise that the people that train it have to have. It can only ever be as good as that. So here's a trend that I think is going to happen. We could see a downturn. It's going to be used by corporate and media organizations and all sorts of people to sack thousands upon thousands of people. And I don't know that it's a possible prediction of mine. Um, it's not even a biggie that is any great surprise and people have been saying this for a while but all we need is that downturn. For that to happen then I think will also be a backlash to AI. I think we're a bit like in that dot com bubble. Do you remember 1999-2000 and there were all these.com organizations. I remember loads of them, um, spending all their investors money sponsoring stages at Glastonbury 2000. Incredible. And it was the latest dot com thing and you never heard of them again. And they were giving away all these marketing freebies and all the rest of it. And the bubble was burst by 2001 and we will see a similar bubble that will happen with investor and everyone moving to that. And then I think um, the AI bubble will burst a little bit. Maybe not as big but there will be a bit of a uh, bursting of the bubble. Um, and then it will find an equilibrium and then lots of organizations who've sacked all these people will suddenly realize it was Emperor's New Clothes. And we still need people to train the expertise on the AI because while it's good it, it doesn't have the history. The AI model that you are uh, training doesn't have 35 years of its experience it control from the Internet. Maybe someone will find a way of develop and maybe I'm already behind in saying that that somebody will train 35 years of experience like that into AI. Um, but is that going to be possible? You've still got to make sure that its model can do the job job and learn from experience. And if it's only got five minutes

Speaker D: of experience, I don't know it's an interesting question. I think I was at a conference, the entreconf, back at the watershed in June 2024. And yeah, Margaret Heffernan, one of the prominent AI professors was saying about nobody can predict the rate of change going forward in AI. You can only predict that look at sort of 400 days past that we can't see. So it's 400.

Speaker A: That's amazing. That's only a year. And that's a finger in the air, is it?

Speaker D: Exactly.

Speaker A: So I'm not speaking from, you know, I know that's going to happen. I'm just saying, you know, it's, I, I think something's going to, it's going to take, we know it's going to take a lot of jobs away. Um, and we know that it can do most of our jobs, but it can't replace what you and I are doing now.

Speaker D: It can't. Well, apparently there are some AI podcasts, but I don't think they're probably any, any good. But that's a, A podcast for a different day.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker D: But coming back to your point though, I think if one thing I'm taking from this conversation is that a crisis presents an opportunity. So how can entrepreneurs use it? I think that AI is going to be massive in terms of entrepreneurship and how entrepreneurs potentially get ahead and do things with less resources, less people. But it's about what they do by freeing up their time where they can have the most impact and by playing to their strengths. I think that's the way that I see it as well.

Speaker A: The greatest thing about AI is instead of sacking five people that you employ and replacing them with AI, what you do is you add another five people with AI. So instead of having five staff, you've now got 10, because those staff who are creative and human beings will use those tools. And this is what I think organizations need to use instead of an excuse to get rid of people is to say, no, I can double my staff instead. Now I've got U5. You can use these tools and you can be more freed up and creative to do X. And it would be unbelievably short sighted if organizations don't get onto that far sooner and really use AI, uh, tools to effectively double your workforce. Because that's what's going on in comms teams and marketing organizations at the moment. Those who've got a comms team of say 10 with using AI tools now have a comms team of 2020. And it's knowing that that's how to use AI to best effect because we know this from freeing it up ourselves 100%.

Speaker D: And I think it's also about, like you said, the biases though that do come into play. I was listening to the radio this morning, they were talking about IBM getting 5 million CV applications every year. How do you process that? Obviously you can use AI to help with that process, but it's ensuring that it's done in uh, fair and an appropriate and a fit for purpose way.

Speaker A: And people have unconscious bias training, which I think people who are trainees in unconscious bias. If you're a trainer in that, I think your job's at risk because that same program you're talking about was also saying, I remember that, uh, was saying that um, you can use AI to get rid of unconscious bias because it won't be biased, but you've got to change the large language model to not be biased. And the trouble they found was with some of the, in the way that AI of course is derived from human and human culture and behavior is you've got to make sure that it doesn't have biases coded into it. But once you've got there, then I guess you won't need um, unconscious bias training anymore because you can use the AI to sift out and make sure it's choosing the right people.

Speaker D: And time will tell on that as well.

Speaker A: It will.

Speaker D: So Dave, I'm going to put you on the spot here. If you had to distill down all of your experience and expertise and pass on just one piece of advice to an early stage entrepreneur, what would that be?

Speaker A: Stick to the main job in hand and absolutely laser focus on making that single business successful. 50% of startups fail, we are told, and therefore if you are easily distracted or it's not 100% passion, it's got to be passion project as well as um, something that you want to do as a business. Unless you are laser focused on making that happen, plus bringing in the right tools and recognizing your own shortcomings in the things that you're not so good at, then it probably won't succeed. If you are, uh, distracted and thinking, I've got this half up and running, now I'll go and start something else then. You can't all be Richard Branson and don't forget he got Virgin Records and that uh, mail order business happening before he moved on to all the other stuff. Um, and then obviously got the break with Mike Oldfield and Tubular Bells and all that business with the record company. But you've got to focus on the single job and be laser focused on that, that otherwise it's not going to work. And if you don't care enough about it and you're thinking, I'm not sure I can do this for the next five years, then you need to maybe think again, um, and pack up and look at something else that you can work day and night on solidly.

Speaker D: Some solid advice there, Dave. Thank you for that. Next up is an opportunity for you to ask our listeners a question. And I know Dave, you had a question that you were dying to ask our listeners.

Speaker A: How do you reach your audience or audiences and what do you find is the best approach to do that? Is it marketing because you use social marketing or digital marketing? Um, do you prefer cold calling and ringing around people? Are you going to networking events and doing local networking or are you trying other sorts of, of methods through approaching people on LinkedIn? So I'd love to know how you reach your audiences from the context of a B2B perspective.

Speaker D: Excellent, Dave. And we'll get some answers to you on that question. Where can people find out a bit more about you personally but also Mentor Media training and splutter.

Speaker A: I'm on LinkedIn as Dave, uh, Mason. I also am on Twitter x as DavemasonTV. Never got around to changing that. Um, so I'm DavemasonTV on Twitter um, Splutter. If you look at Splutter training, that's our website for that business and you can just Google Mentor Media training and we come up, it's mentormediatraining.co.uk and that's where that business is.

Speaker D: Excellent. Dave, thank you so much for your time today. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on the show.

Speaker A: Thank you, Ollie, it's been a delight and uh, really appreciate coming on. Thank you.

Speaker D: Thank you.

Speaker B: So I really love the question that Dave has just posed because I've uh, worked with some salespeople who are very, very single minded about how you should do B2B sales. Like you have to reach your audience in very specific ways. But the reality is it's so dependent on the business, the skills of the founders or the team that you've got, um, maybe the profile you've already got as business owners. And ah, often businesses actually use a mixture of different approaches. I mean from what I've seen, almost always businesses are going to use a mixture. Yeah. And you might lean into particular areas but even using a mixture across different parts of the sales and marketing funnels as well, so they actually complement each other really well. So I'm really excited for people to get in touch, um, go over to our socials, find that question, let us know, what do you use to reach your audiences? What do you find works? Have you found things that don't work? Have you had bad advice around this as well as I potentially feel like I have had in the past. And yeah, we, we'd love to hear more from you. So AI, and we do mean artificial intelligence when we say AI this time. Um, I wanted to take this idea of AI should enhance teams, not replace them. I agree with that. Um, but I also think it's a very idealistic perspective. We know that businesses don't operate in necessarily what we would see as, ah, the most, uh, ethical and supportive of human ways. Um, and I can understand why in many scenarios, I mean, I'm kind of a hopeful pessimist. I think when we talk about this, uh, we're always paradoxes, right in entrepreneurship. So kind of being that hopeful pessimist, I think that we really do need to continue to empower employees. We need to continue to find their strengths and find a way to bring out their strengths. And I think AI tools can really help with that, as Dave had described. But I also know that economic uncertainty can be incredibly difficult for businesses. Often businesses are forced to make short term, um, decisions even if they know that maybe in the long term they're not so good. And I think in particular looking at smaller businesses, looking at startups, looking at entrepreneurs, of course people are going to be employing AI tools instead of employing people because they don't even have the budgets to employ those people in the first place. So what do you think we can do? Um, and if people are listening in and they're thinking, well, maybe my job, maybe my business is at risk because of AI tools, are there things that they can do that means that the impact isn't going to be so great?

Speaker C: So I think you're right. Businesses are making decisions in the short term primarily. And you know, the rise in national insurance contributions, like it's going to have an impact on businesses up and down the country. So I think if they're doing things where they can do more with less and employ AI to be able to do parts of people's jobs, then naturally that probably is going to be the de facto response. I think the world is obviously changing rapidly, as we all know. So it's about how you can utilize AI to actually make you a better business, not just make you a leaner business, like actually deliver more value. That's what business is about at the end of the day is delivering value to your own customer and that value creation. So uh, I am quietly optimistic, but I do see the very dark side of AI as well. I mean in the early days of like ChatGPT and you know that was being billed as like you know, having 20 employees in your pocket for $20 a month. Month. Like obviously it's not to that extent but we've seen the rise of tools, particularly coming out of China now like Deepseek and Manaus and you know, there's some incredible developments going on there and there's a big talk online at the moment about how agentic AI is going to be able to do entire processes and uh, not actually have humans within that loop and actually do stuff from start to finish. And that is quite mind blowing but also quite scary at the same time because I always think there's got to be a human, there's got to be in the element. I think if it's making business leaders and employees more empowered to leverage their time in better ways, then that's great. But if it's directly taking jobs then obviously that is an area of concern. I think the economy is going to shift naturally. Um, so yeah, I'm kind of optimistic yet do share some of that potential reality that you said as well.

Speaker B: And I think it's inevitable. It's already is taking jobs um, in the same way as technology has always, always has. Um, I know the kind of technology leaders I've spoken to about this certainly see the AI revolution and the much more rapid adoption and understanding of AI since, since um, the release of ChatGPT as well is definitely a step change and perhaps one that looks different to maybe like the rise of ah, kind of automation within businesses. Um, but I think we also as humans we always find a way, we find a way to work even as much as we might want to take a break every now and again. Humans are creative. Humans do um, come together as communities. We do things to help each other, we do things to survive, but we also do things to innovate and create and that's how we've ended up in this position. Um, and I think that we can start to, we can actually learn from Dave and his career here as well in terms of perhaps employing our own defensive strategies in the sense of, of recognizing that things have changed and that what was before is not necessarily going to be the skills that are needed anymore. So as individuals or maybe even and as wider society really looking at ah, what does the world need from humans Right now, where can humans make a real difference? And as individuals, we develop those skills as society, we help people to develop those skills and really find them roles that, that are going to work in a way that are still going to adapt and change. And again, we need those skills of adaptability, uh, and spontaneity in order to respond to how the world is changing. And it's rapidly changing in so many ways right now. I mean, if I think back to, I guess more of the pre Brexit days, um, I think I was somewhat naive about life and the world and how it seems to continue to progressively get. Get better for people. Like, actually, no, that's not necessarily the case. Um, but we can develop our own skills and respond to the needs of the world right now. And I think that that's our jobs actually as entrepreneurs.

Speaker C: Yeah. And talking about using crisis as opportunities, then, you know, opportunities are going to present themselves and entrepreneurs are the best place to take advantage of that. Like, if a lot of small businesses are employing less people, then there's going to be more need for that human connection. So it could be community supporting entrepreneurs, it could be more advisory work, it could be connecting businesses. Like, there's going to be different ways of working. The change will come. But I'm quietly confident that we as a species will, will find a way forward.

Speaker B: And I really hope kind of deep down, just despite evidence to the contrary, sometimes we care about looking after each other and we care about helping each other. And I think that that's something that m. Maybe even just on a one to one basis that we can do as individuals. And that in itself can seed hope, uh, and power and maybe in a different way from what the world looks like or has looked like in the past. But yeah, you're going to bring me along on that optimism.

Speaker C: We've gone deep here, Becky. We've gone deep.

Speaker B: Yeah. So, um, I mean, it was a deep episode. There was a lot in there and I think there's a lot that people can take out from it. I really enjoy listening to Dave and all of those different things that he was able to share. Thank you everyone for listening. If you like what you've heard, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. And don't forget that there's a big selection of previous episodes. Search Founded and Grounded on your favorite podcast player. Thank you for listening to Founded and Grounded with olly Collard and Dr. Becky Sage. Don't forget to press that follow button to help us to grow the show.