Your Purposeful Third Act with Zabeen Hirji

Hey, Foresight listeners, thanks for tuning into our show. If you like what you hear and want a monthly roundup, a sneak peek into the insights from our Foresight Plus members-only events and more, sign up for our monthly newsletter. It's free and subscribing also gets you access to our quarterly Foresight whitepaper. This quarter's whitepaper is about rethinking entry-level work in the age of AI, produced in collaboration with Dr. Miranda Rodak from Indiana University's Kelley School of Business., an important topic for HR leadership and parents, students, and society as a whole. Link to subscribe in our show notes. Now on to today's episode. You're listening to Foresight, the weekly podcast about HR leadership and the future of work. We explore the ideas, trends, and the real stories reshaping how work gets done. I'm your co-host, Mark Edgar, a former consultant and coach, Turned Chief People Officer on a mission to make work more human. And I'm Naomi Teitelman, former big firm consultant and HR executive, now striving to make work better one leader and one organization at a time. Every week, we chat with top experts and dive deep into the issues facing HR and business leaders today, from retention and engagement to AI, flexible work, culture, and leadership effectiveness, with ideas you can use right now to lead with confidence into the future of work. Welcome to Foresight, a podcast about HR leadership and the future of work. I'm one of your co-hosts, Naomi Teitelman, and I'm joined today by our next special guest, Zabeen Hirji. Zabeen and I met through HR circles, I think over a decade ago when she was the CHRO at Royal Bank of Canada, and Zabeen graciously agreed to speak at our Future Forward conference in 2018 as she was entering her third act. And I'm grateful for the mentorship that's since transpired. Zabeen is now enjoying and thriving in her purposeful third act, P3A as she likes to call it, in which she is a founder, retirement disruptor, executive advisor, board director, and much more. Welcome to the podcast, Zabeen. It's great to have you here. How are you and where are you joining us from? Well, thank you, Naomi. It's a delight to be with you again. I'm joining you from sunny Toronto. Great. And hanging in there through allergy season? Yeah, it's a rough one this year. That's for sure. And you know, interesting, you kicked off with mentorship and it's very reciprocal. I think the best mentorships are when you're learning from each other, and I love our time together because I come away just a tiny bit smarter. Oh, thank you. That means a ton coming from you. Before we dive into the conversation today, we're gonna check in, and what I'd like to know from you today in my check-in question is, what's one thing about your third act that surprised you? One thing that surprised me, it is much more energizing than I ever expected. Hmm, I love that. Tell me why. I talk about my third act as being Zabeen all the time, most of the time anyway. And what that means is regardless of what I'm doing, it never really even feels like work. A lot of my work, as you know, is also pro bono, but it's always learning. It's doing something new. No week week looks the same. And I very much had that kind of a role at RBC because of the breadth of my role where there were so many different things. And I realize now how much I love being able to jump from one thing to another and then find new ways to connect the dots. Yeah, I love that too. So I think that's how we connect with each other. Exactly. I love that too. So you shared a little bit about your journey, but let's go back to the beginning and start with you. If you can share your journey, your career journey to where you are today. And I know you've been continuing to make a tremendous impact post-retirement, so I'd love to hear what you're up to now. Yeah, well, my journey, I'll say just a little bit about my personal journey. I was born in Tanzania. I came to Canada as a teenager, and I started at RBC 3 years after we arrived in Canada as a teller. And my, that was my gap year. My plan was to work for a year and then go to university full-time. Long story short, I decided to stay at the bank and go to university the hard way, which was part-time. Was out in Vancouver at the time and did my MBA through Simon Fraser, where I'm still involved today in different ways. So there I was a year later, and after being a teller for a year saying, what do I wanna do at RBC? And decided I wanted to go into their management training program. So did what I needed to do for that. And I've actually got a cute story about that on LinkedIn. I think it's called something like, "How the worst day in my life was the best day in my life," or something like that, just around advocating for yourself. That's a message there. 20 years on the direct business side of the bank, retail banking operations, technology strategy, credit cards, came into HR just as the other roles had evolved. They just, they were opportunistic. Something was put in front of me and I took it on. So in some cases I didn't take on some things that were put in front of me. Went into HR thinking this will be another 3-year, at that stage it was, they were slightly longer as the roles were getting more senior. It was my first executive role. And I discovered, Naomi, within a year or so that that was where I wanted to stay. I had found that magic, that sweet spot of where I could drive company performance and I could, I had the opportunity to touch the lives of, at that time, 60,000 people in some way and to help them achieve their career aspirations and dreams just as others had done for me. And so stayed in HR, did a number of roles, and became the CHRO 10 years later and was the CHRO for 10 years at RBC and also had responsibility for brand communications and corporate citizenship. Great. So quite a career at RBC. What are you up to and what are you most excited about? You, you talked a little bit about what's bringing you energy, but what are you up to post-retirement? Because I know you're not sitting around knitting and doing needlepoint all the time. I wish I could, but I don't have that talent. So when I retired from RBC, I'm not retired, so I retired from RBC. I stepped back for initially, I just, I wanted to do nothing for a short period of time because I never had. I started working at 17 and my only time off was my parental leaves, which isn't really time off for yourself. And I thought, I just wanna be carefree. But I realized very quickly that that's not who I was. And I was in my mid-50s, so I realized I had really a lot of time ahead of me. Long story short, I did quite a bit of work, and I'm happy to go into that as we progress in the conversation. To land me at what I call purposeful third act. And third act is something that's out there. You see people talking about it. And essentially, it's 60 to 90, 55 to 90. Act 1 is learn when you're going to school full-time. Act 2 is earn when you've got your full-time, full-on professional life. And Act 3 is post that. But what I would underscore is the purposeful. The portfolio that I built is really in service of my why, my purpose, which is unlocking human potential and building inclusive prosperity. And so the portfolio that I've created, and a lot of it is opportunistic, I did not set out to go and find all of those things. But as things came my way, it really gave me a really good way to start the assessment of, is this something that's gonna help me advance my purpose? And it made it easy to also say no to things. In fact, just today I had a message from an amazing healthcare institution that I have a lot of respect for and had been at one of their events and somebody was following up. And I said, I'm really supportive of quality healthcare, but it is not really the area that I'm focused on. And she came back saying, thank you, thanks for being honest, because she doesn't want to waste her time either. And so that has been really helpful because busy people, I'm sure you Find the same even in your second ad. People come to busy people for more. So I've created this mix from all sectors. As you may know, I'm an advisor at Deloitte, where that was the first— and I think I will maybe double-click on this— that was the first role that I took on. I didn't anticipate it. Once my retirement was announced, I, of course, at the bank, we worked with all of the professional services firms and strategy consulting firms, and people reached out to me to explore opportunities to work in an advisory role. And while initially I was hesitant because I really did not want to overcommit or say yes just to fill the time or to fill the void, but I, in hindsight, I realize that that was a good decision because it It gave me, at the time I think I thought of it as a bridge. I would have that until I decide what I'm going to do. In the end, it's become my anchor role. And what's really important is it is a commercial orientation. So I'm in the business world, I'm in the technology space and keeping up with what's happening. I have professional colleagues around me. I have a place to go, a place to feel a sense of belonging. And it is a platform that allows me to align my purpose with theirs, and yet with a lot of flexibility. It's light touch. It's a day a week. For me, that's a big learning, is to keep that, because the world unfortunately also judges you by your title. It's quite funny. Sometimes I'm asked to comment in the media. They ask me because I'm Zabeen, but they can't just say Zabeen Hirji said this. They have to give it credibility. Right. And so for me, success, one of the successes of Purposeful Third Act in the future would be where they don't actually need that kind of a title. Yeah. And then there's always former CHRO RBC tucked in there as well. Yeah. So I wanna bring us back to the idea of purpose, and I know that is such an important part of your Purposeful Third Act and the work that you're doing. And you've, you know, luckily, or, you know, by, with a lot of work, have landed on yours. But for someone who's spent 30 years executing on someone else's mission and kind of has not really thought much about their purpose and their north star, how do you know when you've got it right? And how would you suggest starting that work? Such a good question. It's another place I find a lot of hesitancy when I share with people how I did it and how I recommend they do it. So I had, interestingly, a couple years before I retired from RBC, I led the work in articulating RBC's purpose and resetting the vision and refreshing the values. And I actually brought a micro version of that in for myself to go through. And I worked with someone, I worked with somebody with kind of strategy facilitation skills and who worked in the social impact space that I felt could really, and had also retired from RBC, so was familiar with what we had done and we knew each other. And we went through, we spent hours just going through exercises around what is the why. I worked with Jen and Tim who are meta-visioning experts and we did vision boards. You might be able to see one over, do you see that? The one over there? Yes. And I also have done vision boards with, with Jen and Tim. Yeah. Oh, okay. There you go. They're fabulous. Yes, they are fabulous. My first one, because I pulled it out, was December 2017. So that was the 2 months after I had retired from the bank. And that was, it's a lot about what are your dreams? What are your fears? Where have you been? Who have you been? Who do you want to be? And then what do you want to do? And we did multiple iterations of that. But I wanted to invest the time and the dollars because I want to optimize my impact. I want to optimize my learning just like we did at work. And I have people who say, well, you did that kind of thing at work. Not really. And you can't do it on yourself. And so that was going through that process. I worked with another coach. Around identity transition. Mm-hmm. Because you are coming from a— when people saw me, it would be RBC, CHRO. Oh yeah, I think her name is Zabeen, right? No, not quite. But I understand. I totally understand. You are always 24/7. And in this country, banks are very prominent. So no matter where I was, I had to be RBC CHRO. Yeah. Can you talk about Table 81 for a second? Sorry to interrupt you. Yeah. So that is one of my favorite LinkedIn posts. Essentially the storyline there is when I went to charity galas, which are big events in many cities and in the business circles, I was at table number 1 as One of the primary sponsors is RBC, you know, maybe table number 3, but usually table number 1. All of a sudden, I didn't, I wasn't at those tables. I was at table 89 and often with not-for-profits. And so the first reaction is, oh my God, I'm sitting at the other end of the room. What are people gonna say? What are people gonna think? Yeah, what if I see someone who I recognize? Right? And they're gonna go, oh, poor Sabine. And what I discovered is that the impact you can have, the learning, people that I wouldn't maybe normally engage with, and just the sheer joy. They're mission-driven people, purpose-driven people in not-for-profits give so much for communities and for others. And it's just a very human, relaxed conversation. And I'm Zabeen. Where I have been, where I came from really meant much less. I won't say nothing because— Yeah, not nothing for sure. But I started to look forward to that and just realized how much it was elevating the people I was sitting with. Like, oh, this is a guest we weren't expecting. But I find that for a lot of people, they stop going because they don't want to be at 89. So interesting. There is so much to unpack and learn from that one simple story. Right. And you know, I, I, you know, have friends, have colleagues who are going through that transition. Mm-hmm. And it's the part that we don't really talk about, right? The loss of identity, the loss of status, the loss of routine, which can bring a lot of self-doubt and shame to definitely. And you're so, it's exactly a word that I've used and, and for me it was, around the same time that I had separated personally. And so I had a second layer of identity change going into restaurants that we used to go to as a family. And, you know, they know the restaurant owners and all of a sudden they're asking, oh, where are they? And so you've, the sort of the multiple layers there in one, some ways maybe made it difficult, in other ways maybe I was more motivated to do it because once I retired from the bank, I intentionally took the time to take care of me as well. It wasn't just about, you know, it's, it's yes, the impactful work, but it's a holistic approach to life, family, friends, children, relationships. But doing that in a slightly different way, being more purposeful. Yes. And being more present. Yeah. With people, which is what Table 89 did for me. I really was able to just be. Yeah. I had no performance expectations or people were judging me at that table. So there's so much learning, as you say, that comes from something like that. And so to kind of wrap up, so I worked for, you know, I started it in the end of 2017. That was my first vision board. And I articulated my purpose. I had kind of a working purpose about a year later. I took my time. I wanted to, you know, let it soak. I wanted to think about it. I wanted to get the words right because the process of doing that is just as important as the outcome. And in the meantime, I was starting to feel— I knew directionally it was around human potential and inclusive prosperity. So as things came up, I could say yes, I could say no. And the one story I think I will share there, although it came a couple of years later, because it surprises people, I had an excellent corporate board opportunity come my way. Very prestigious company, financially doing extremely well. Great board, and I was offered a board seat. And I looked at my purpose and I thought, this is a great company. It's doing great things. It's not at all gonna help me activate my purpose. And I told the board chair, I explained it to him, and he said, you know, Sabine, I respected you before, but I respect you even more now. Amazing. And that's what true purpose is about, right? Yeah. Yes. Yes, that is very, very powerful. And I too, you know, I have made one mistake kind of saying yes to something that didn't fully align, but I did it as a favor to someone that I can't say no to. And it took courage, but I had to, you know, give it 6 months. And then I said, you know what, I really don't feel like I'm adding the value that you need for this opportunity. Right. And it's very liberating to be able to do that. Exactly. Yes. Okay. So let's talk to people who are listening to this and say, okay, I got it. First, I have to find my purpose, then I have to let go of my ego, it sounds like. Yes. Then what? Then where do I go next? Yeah, well, as you're doing the purpose clarification, and it's really a discovery for me, it's not a new thing. If you think about it, that's what I did at RBC for my second half of my career, people potential and inclusive prosperity. So it's very much, I see it as a rediscovery, not a reinvention. Different points of view on that, but that's, that's how I look at it. And once people, you talk about it, it's out there. Naturally, I spend about half my time doing pro bono work. And so naturally I would get different not-for-profits. I'm doing things with my university. That's a great place to go to. I did my MBA at Simon Fraser. I've been an executive in residence there for many years. Reached out to the dean, hey, you know, love to chat with you, get updated on what SFU is doing. And then that, that led to that kind of a role. It's an advisory role, and I speak to students and that kind of thing. Advisory with governments. And some of that is what I realized, because people say, how do I prepare for it in the future? Relationships, relationships, relationships. The, the people I met during my career, I very much believed in— quite often people come up to you and say, oh, you know, will you mentor me? Whereas my approach was always, let me learn more about this person. What problems are they trying to solve? And I would proactively then send them things that could be solutions, ideas, et cetera. But those are the people who remembered me, who I could go back to and say, hey, so not-for-profit boards. I talked to a lot of people about that. And don't be shy. If you're interested in something, take a look at who's sitting on the board. Chances are you or someone you know knows someone. Talk to them. Reach out to them. I sat on a corporate board as well. Again, you know, there were people that my ex-sponsor from RBC said, oh, you know, I think Zabeen could could potentially help here. But you have to put yourself out there and that's new. You have to be an entrepreneur. You have to sell yourself in a way that before I could get any meeting I wanted. Yeah. No, there's a real fear of rejection, right? Like there's a real fear. And now, they say no, or people just don't respond to my emails. And I just have to step back and say, okay, this is not, it's not personal. And even if it is, Some of it may be, you just move on. So you have to build a different kind of resilience. Talk to people. That's a really helpful thing. I'm with what we're doing around kind of building a movement for purposeful third act. Cohorts is also really, really helpful to just have others that are going through the same thing. The emotional adjustment is just as big as finding the right things. And then it's like an investment portfolio. Prune, add, adjust, look at your whole— every— I do a review. I do a personal performance review for myself every year. I have a strategy. I have goals. I know it sounds a bit— people go, why? That's a lot of pressure. For me, it's not. When I know I have a— is it— am I executing perfectly? No, but it's my direction. It's I find it really helpful. Yeah, it is important 'cause there is a risk that you get too scattered and then you feel like you're not, you're being productive 'cause you're doing a lot of things. Right. But you're not achieving the outcomes that you wanna achieve. And I think the other thing that's really important is that it's okay, like whatever you want to do, you just have to be honest with yourself about what that is, right? Like there's too much should coming at us at all times. Please. And it's okay if you just wanna take a beat and, you know, either care for your loved ones or go spend some time golfing, that is okay. And you shouldn't, you know, feel any pressure that you have to contribute in a different way. Absolutely, absolutely. And I say even with purpose in the third act, which maybe is a higher level of contribution, if you're open to one day a week, you can have huge impact. Yeah, yeah, that's really motivating, but targeted. But yeah, for me, it's I've never been fitter than I am today. Congratulations. I invest in that. I enjoy it. I love to garden. I spend a lot of time pretty much every day playing with my garden in some way and time with family, friends I made. I was too busy to have close friends that I could spend time with. And as the head of HR, you know that. Yeah. And be close friends with people at work, which is usually where you make your friendships. Mm-hmm. You have to keep a distance. And I now have, it's a group of 5 of us, 5 women who we spend a lot of time together and, and learn and dance and do all kinds of things. So I am very, very disciplined about setting aside time. And my kids who are in their 30s now and my partner, the, you know, my ask of them is you need to keep me in check. You need to, I ask them every few months, how am I doing? Are we spending the right kind of time together? Am I, you know, being fully present? Because I know I wasn't before. Yes, it's an important learning. And also part of what it's okay to want is to still want to contribute to corporates, right? Like still wanna contribute to business. And again, it's back to letting go of that ego. You're not like CHRO anymore, but you still do have a great role to play in the organization. So how would you suggest on both sides with your CHRO hat and with your purposeful third act hat on, How would you encourage people who are retiring from their corporate roles, their, you know, potentially executive corporate roles to have that conversation about how to shift the employment contract essentially and how they can add value and what do organizations have to get better at doing? Yeah, we— there's some countries that are doing that better than others. Some European, Central European countries and even the UK, there is much more of a focus. France has a group of CEOs that have come together around older workers. L'Oréal is doing some great things, but there are different kinds of roles. People want to work less time. People often want less direct sort of accountability. It's a good question. Can you do that with people in your own organization? Yes, but I haven't seen a lot of models. And the greatest fear I think people have is will that person be able to step away from their leadership role? And it's interesting with Deloitte, I think, you know, Heather, I think at Deloitte who had hired me, she said to me, Sabine, our biggest concern was that you would not be able to step away from a leadership role and just be an advisor. And, you know, we're pleasantly surprised. And I said, well, that's what I wanted. If I wanted to be in a leadership role, I would be. But it is a, you know, it is a change. You have to be able to advise and then move on. But what can organizations do? Flexible work, different kinds of vacation schedules, intergenerational teams. We've not really touched on some of the important human capabilities, judgment, thinking about the apprentice models in many organizations that are really being put to the test as more AI is used in, in some of the entry-level professional roles. And what, what those jobs did is they actually built those skills, critical thinking and judgment. And can you use more experienced older workers to actually help people with those kind of things, to be on those teams, to, teams to do the simulations. That's, that's, that's an example. And then in advisory roles, those are hard. And what I would say is you have to be proactive as well and kind of step up with ideas. I didn't think I would be still doing it 8 years later. I'm also an advisor to a startup going to slash scale up. It's in the HR space. It's called Naukri. That's another great opportunity. I was doing it more informally, formalized it a few years ago. The CEO gets to the voice of the CHRO as needed, and the investors love it that the CEO has somebody who's in the market who can actually be that voice of the CHRO and can really help develop some of those human capabilities as that business grows and that they're engaging, where they're engaging with different people in business and in the public sector. And then there are boards and, you know, boards are great. A lot of people are interested. What I say to people is there just aren't that many board seats, right? In public companies. Yeah. And so absolutely make it a goal, but there are a lot more people who wanna join boards than there are boards. And really be thoughtful as I show. In fact, there are two boards I declined for the same reason. Which was the purpose fit. But if you find something and you think you're suitable, then reach out to the board director, reach out to the chair in a very thoughtful way. If you really think, and I know that large boards in Canada have had people reach out to them and they are on their boards because they were not on the radar. Right, yeah, exactly. And if not now, if there's no vacancy now, just like we used to do for, you know, full-time corporate jobs. Reach out and get to know the board. Exactly. And then there will eventually be a vacancy. And public sector boards would be a good bridge. Some are paid, some are not. But hospitals, universities, but even cities, provinces, federally, there are a lot of different organizations that have boards which could also have a stronger purpose lens. Yeah, yeah. Those are, those are great, great avenues to explore. Let's talk about HR in corporations right now. What can HR do now to better engage people who are ready for their third act in a more valuable way, right? Either people who are about to leave, you know, but they don't wanna lose their knowledge. People who have left and have decided they wanna work in a different way. How can HR help kind of shift the conversation from they've left and they're gone to we may wanna engage them in a different way? Like, have you seen great strategies around that? No. Mm-hmm. Here's the thing. There's a huge mindset shift required. Yeah. Before the what? And I will often say, take a look at the TSX 100 companies and the majority of the CEOs are over 55. Mm-hmm. Maybe even 60. Yeah. The C-suite over 50, and yet Within organizations, you hear as people reach that age, oh, they're running out of runway. Oh, we're not gonna invest in them. Oh, they're not gonna learn new technology. Oh, this, oh, that. We need to talk about things differently. We need to profile people differently. Role models are really important. That's something I do. I've got a few role models on my website. And then having flexible programs. What comes to mind to me is where we did it quite well. Remember, probably 20 years ago now, 25 years ago, when the work-family was a big kind of theme, work-family programs or work-family balance. We hadn't put life in there yet, but there were a lot of programs for women with young children, flexible work arrangements, job shares, a whole bunch of different permutations. And what about if we did them for older workers as well? There are organizations that are doing internships for older workers. Like the movie with Robert De Niro and Anne Hathaway. And that's where that reciprocal mentoring can come into play. And I would say that for the older workers, It's also incumbent upon us to keep our knowledge up. You can't— I can't rely on 8 years ago at RBC, we did this. Yeah. Yes. Things are changing so fast. Yeah. And I— learning for me is a huge part of why I do what I do. But you do— lifelong learning becomes a must. And so even higher ed institutions, for example, need to evolve. Their model is still the Learn, Earn, Retire. So their programming is very much focused at, at a kind of certain age, a full-time degree, and what opportunities are there on the higher ed side. Governments have a role to play in— there might be policy changes, pension implications if you're working, tax implications. And employers can also offer their executives, their partners. And professional services firms have mandatory retirement ages. So it's no secret when a partner is going to have to retire. It's a little bit harder in corporates because people don't want to declare. So how do you help them create programs like this? And many organizations have purpose and are purpose-driven social impact strategies. What about aligning some of the people with those strategies? Because they have a reputation and a connectivity in the market that can be very helpful commercially to those organizations as well. But it requires deliberateness. It requires declaring, declaring, that's our view. And for me, the intergenerational piece is really, really important. How can we be elevating our younger generation and with some of the knowledge transfer and learning as this is happening? Yes, so lots of opportunity for sure. Acknowledgement that this is an issue that's worth paying attention to in organizations and as individuals alike. People are living longer, people are working longer, and so we have to be open to those conversations. Everyone, if they're lucky, gets to a certain age where, you know, they're, they, they feel it. They feel the ageism. They feel that their skills are no longer valued. And so I think it's a conversation that we need to have more transparently out there. You and I were just talking about Dan Pontefract's book that just came out. Yes. The Future of Work is Gray, who was just on our podcast recently and reframing, right? It's not about like if you're a Gen X or a Gen Y or a boomer, it's about the value or the era that you're in. He calls it the ripples, rocks, and rubies, which is such a wonderful reframe. Exactly. And look at physicians, they work into their 70s. Yeah, later sometimes. Yeah, and we need them to work. Yes. And they are using AI, they are changing the, you know, they're looking for those tools because that means they can see more patients. Yeah, exactly. And most, for most physician specialties, there's a shortage. Yeah, absolutely. Well, we are unfortunately getting to the end of our time together, Zabeen, But before we go, how can our listeners find out more about the great work you're doing? I'm very active on LinkedIn, so please join me, follow me on LinkedIn. I have a newsletter that you can also subscribe to on LinkedIn. And I would love for you, for me, the best part is when people engage in the conversation. That's how you can contribute, we can contribute. I'm very active as a, I probably comment 4 or 5 times a day on people's posts. Where the content has either spurred some thinking for me or something I wanna reinforce. And I, there, I have a website, zabeenhirji.com, that also has a lot around purposeful third act and resources. I'm a very much abundance mindset, resources from everywhere. I'm a social enterprise, so I'm very big on sharing lots of tools there. And lots of role models out there in this purposeful third act and tap into them, reach out to them, talk to them, learn from them. Yes, fantastic. And we will include all of those links in the show notes. And we like to end on a feel good. So what are you feeling good about today, Zaveen? The sunshine. I can almost see my flowers growing. Oh, in Toronto, those are real feel goods. Right, and just looking at from bare trees to almost a jungle out there. And I, the sun shining, streaming on it. Nature is so powerful. Amazing. Despite the allergies. Yes, despite the allergies. I'd say, yeah, just, you know, keep my Kleenex with me and out I go. Yeah, sounds good. Well, thank you for being a great guest on our show today, Zabeen. Until next time, everyone, take care. Thanks for listening to Foresight. If you enjoyed the episode, we would love to hear from you. Leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. Your ratings and reviews also help more people like you find our show so that we can reach more Future Forward leaders and achieve our mission of making work better. Follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram @futureforward and sign up for our monthly newsletter, Foresight, on our website, futureforward.com. That's F-U-T-U-R-E-F-O-R-W-A-R-D. Hrward.com, where we share even more about the new world of work. Talk to you next week.