E147 - He Sold His Protein Bar Company For $600M: Peter Rahal on RXBAR, David, & Going Viral

Speaker A: In the natural food movement you can get to 10 million in the US you can do that online. But I think the typical barrier is actually probably the man looked at protein bars and said I can do better. Proved it, cashed a $600 million check from Kellogg's and then said I can do it better again. David Barr's founder, Peter Rahal. We are at the biophysics limit of what you can make at protein bar. You can't go more super hard. The idea was just like launch on our own schedule, introduce the product and then work with the retailers. First week we did a million dollars in sales. I basically became a workaholic and so I tried to like re establish my relations. Just like wasn't fulfilling. If you want to achieve great things, you can't be balanced.

Speaker B: There just will be sacrifices. Some people it will be friends, socializing, maybe relationships.

Speaker A: If you want to be a great leader and do great things like the domains of life is like social, health, sleep, family, work, choose three.

Speaker B: Was there any big fuck ups that you can remember that where you thought oh my God, like this, this could be the end?

Speaker A: Yeah. When we went from. Just a quick one.

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Speaker A: Thank you for having me, Mike.

Speaker B: This will be an interesting one because first of all my audience is very much into fitness, wellness, Supplements, but also at the same time entrepreneurship. And uh, with what you've done, you've combined both and you've done very well. And you've dominated not once but twice in uh, the protein bar market, which is already very saturated.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So congratulations.

Speaker A: Yeah, thank you.

Speaker B: Your, your first venture was the RX bar.

Speaker A: Correct.

Speaker B: And how did that come about?

Speaker A: So it was like 2010. I was playing rugby. Excuse me. Um, and a guy on the team was into CrossFit. He was a military guy, so he was just fitter than everyone else.

Speaker B: So.

Speaker A: So I got into CrossFit around then and I just fell in love with it. Cause it was super intense. Get good results. Olympic weightlifting, gymnastics, and you just develop skills. Um, and then I was like, I think like a lot of entrepreneurs, like I wanted to be successful and I was looking for an opportunity in a business. And um, my background's in food. So um, uh, on the ingredients side. So I had that sort of knowledge of raw materials and um, the supply chain. And then CrossFit is emerging. I don't know if you remember 2012, it was like the hottest thing it was before all these boutique fitness places. And so in the United States, CrossFit was blowing up. Um, so I fell in love with that. And then, uh, I had a shitty job and I was like, I got, I just hate this and I need something better. And so I, um, saw an opportunity. So like right across the gym was. This is. At the time it was like, all right, CrossFit was all about Paleo. So it was both like a fitness ideology and a nutrition ideology. So in a CrossFit box, they wouldn't sell any other protein bar. Um, and the shelves are empty. And, and at the time there was like Killcliffe and all these other like CrossFit specific brands there. And I was like, well, shit, like there's clearly an opportunity for like a bar designed for CrossFitters.

Speaker B: Um, it's like a healthy.

Speaker A: Yeah, like a clean label. Paleo. A Paleo protein bar, basically. Yeah. And um, so I just started making a protein bar for me, for that audience and started super modestly like making them in my apartment or my parents basement.

Speaker B: Um, how, how, how does, how do you even begin doing that? Like what scale were you producing them? Oh, you just do like a, a batch that you would get maybe like 20 bars or 30 bars.

Speaker A: Yeah, so a five quart KitchenAid. Yeah, yeah, just take dates, dried egg whites, almond cashews, and mix it in.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, some flavor and yeah, started making it and then you know it's like, I had. No, I didn't. We've. We had limited resources, so I just made, like a hundred. I went to my local box, sold them, and they, like, sold right away.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So, you know, you could just extrapolate, like, all right, if it works in a CrossFit gym in Chicago, you know, it's going to work in other CrossFit gyms. They're very same culture. Um, and I remember the time I was like, all right, this would be amazing if I could just win the CrossFit market and, like, kind of have a lifestyle business.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, go to CrossFit gym, sell it. And then, uh, totally underestimated, like, what it took to actually scale business. Yeah. I was like, all right. And then, um, so, you know, the first assignment was like, all right, let's just dominate CrossFit. Be the bar for CrossFit. And then. Then it was like, all right, then we'll figure out how to cross. Cross the chasm. Go. Go to Whole Foods, go to the Natural Channel in the US and, um, scale it from there.

Speaker B: So from the early days of when you were creating the bar versus what you see now on the shelves, has it changed much? The ingredients?

Speaker A: The ingredients not so, like, fundamentally, no, but it might look like a simple product, but the variety of dates changed. The how we process the dates changed, how we mix them, how we pasteurize them. Um, there's all these little details that really, really matter. Um, cashew butter, how it's roasted, like, how it's milled. So the size of the almonds. Um, are they roasted or not roasted? Uh, so it was a constant iteration over time. Um, it's really.

Speaker B: It's funny that I'm speaking to you now, because every single time that I came to America, obviously I'm on the move. I need to try and get my calories in. But more importantly, you know, if I don't have access to eating something healthy, like a cafe or restaurant, which is quite common in America, I would just want something quick.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Off the shelves. And for a long time, it was pretty much jerky or the RX bar. So I would always go for RX Bar, because the jerky, even though it said it was jerky, it was like, what, 70% actual jerky. And the rest of it was some weird extra ingredients. And it was kind of like, uh, all this sugar that was in it as well. So I don't think there was anything else on the shelves that was kind of natural and just, uh, had so few ingredients.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: That The RX bar had. So that was my go to all the time. And, um, it always used to fascinate me that you had such a variety of different flavors of the bars.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yet the ingredients were very similar. So as you mentioned, it's just the, the different ratios and the preparation of those ingredients. So they can have an effect on the. The flavor of them.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's. Yeah. Which made it really. It was. It actually made it hard to make it a. Like we had. We had limited tools like we had for blueberry. We had to use blueberry and blueberry flavor. Chocolate. You're limited. So, um, yeah, it was hard. And for me, I actually, like, I always. This is like the entrepreneurial hack. Like, I loved Larabar at the time and it was like a simple question. It's like, why is why I wish this had protein.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because Larabar was dates and almonds. Um, and then we just added egg whites.

Speaker B: Yeah. So how did you become or try to become the official like CrossFit bar? What was the strategy?

Speaker A: The, uh, Strategy. So the CrossFit community, did you do CrossFit?

Speaker B: No.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: So, I mean, I, I did a few sessions.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I slight lifting weights.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, it's. And so like CrossFitters, like wore Reebok nanos. They like, they had a language, you know, doing it. RX doing. You know, they doing wads. They had this like, own language. And so you needed to authentically be in that culture for it to spread. Like, if you're an outsider, like coming and marketing to it, they would, they would tell. And um, so one being in the community and going to like, local competitions, uh, actually working out of the gym with the, with the trainers certainly helped. But the main strategy was just sampling and participating in all the, um, like the competitions.

Speaker B: Um, well, so you would show up with like a big batch of bars and be like, hey guys, are you giving them out for free or are you selling them?

Speaker A: Both.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, it was like going to a version of a farmer's market.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and then the. We didn't do this well, but if you look at the brands that did were really successful. The best way to drive awareness across it was with CrossFit athletes and partnering with them.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So like, if you got rich Froning, you would have been everywhere.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like, he was the Michael Jordan. So we didn't really do that too much because we didn't have like the resources. Um.

Speaker B: Yeah. What year was this?

Speaker A: 2013 to 2016.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So he CrossFit I would call it.

Speaker B: And they would have wanted.

Speaker A: They want. Yeah, he was expensive.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. And even without the Ambassadors, you were still able to, to kind of get the name out there.

Speaker A: I would call it like organic. Word of mouth was the main driver because it was an uncompetitive market. There was no other protein bar.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know, so as an entrepreneur, those are like ideal markets where there's like little competition. Um, because it was too small of a market for someone like, I don't know, Clif Bar to go into. You know, it's like. Yeah, they're too big. So.

Speaker B: Yeah. So. So how did you go from making it in the kitchen to then making it on a larger scale?

Speaker A: Yeah, so first it was like validate that there's demand for our products locally. And then we moved to a 5,000 square foot kitchen, slash a commercial kitchen call it. Survived there for about 18 months. Got our volume up to like 10,000 bars a day. And then that was the moment where we could go to a commercial, um, manufacturer and scale it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Which was the hardest part.

Speaker B: Yeah, I can imagine.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So, uh, to begin with, you would, I would imagine the majority of the money you were making, you were just reinvesting.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's all working. It all would go back into inventory. And the reason why it's so hard is so we're basically making, making product to order. So we'd make it, sell it. So, so we wouldn't make much inventory. Then, um, we go from doing that to making 60 days of inventory. So these like large inventory builds. Um, and that was the hardest part. Yeah. Because going from bootstrap to that was um, you know, you couldn't fuck up.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Was it, was there any big fuck ups that you can remember that where you thought, oh my God, like this, this could be the end.

Speaker A: Yeah. When we went from making ourselves to the commercial, um, we had our, you know, 40 pound batches and then we went to a 2,000 pound batch. And it doesn't scale linearly and it was a different type of mixture, different packaging. And so we underestimated sort of some of the details with scaling. Um, um, you know, so that, that. Yeah. And then shelf life.

Speaker B: Yeah. Cause what, what would a typical shelf life be? Is it, would it be for something like this? It would be less because it's more natural ingredients?

Speaker A: No, not necessarily. So why, how do you determine shelf life so how the product dies? The product would die because of yeast and mold that is controlled by something called water activity. So you think of like Difference between bread and crackers. Just one has water, one doesn't.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So, um, if you have water activity under around 6, 5, it will not mold. Um, but if you go above 6, 5 to 7, it will mold. So, um, and then the other one would be rancidity of fats. Like almonds go bad. They, uh, oxidize. So that's how you determine shelf life. And we just didn't know. So. And okay.

Speaker B: So. So even though you had some experience within, like, ingredients and combining ingredients, you didn't know about this?

Speaker A: I did not know we were sitting through fucking up. Yeah. Rules through blood. And so for the first time, we made pro. So usually we make product and it would be consumed within three months.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and then all of a sudden we were making product and like, we needed it consumed in six months. So, um. Yeah. Learned a lot about microbiology. Um, but it's nothing to do with natural. Not like you can't stop. The way you stop mold is not through, uh, it's actually controlling water activity. And the irony is, actually agricultural products, um, are higher risk of that because they have more natural yeast and mold in them.

Speaker B: So.

Speaker A: Whereas like a. Actually a more processed ingredient, like whey protein isolate, that's all cleaned.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So. So it's like super. It's way more stable. Uh, so, yeah, we learned that that was the riskiest thing is like, going into commercial production and, um, not knowing. Not and being completely ignorant.

Speaker B: And, uh, what was the, like, the biggest breakthrough in terms of getting on the shelves of a big chain store? Which was like, the first one, the

Speaker A: big one was Wegmans here. It's a big. It's a regional grocer. Uh, Wegmans.

Speaker B: Wegmans.

Speaker A: There's one in Union Square. Uh, and they're. They're amazing. They're like. It's a cult brand in the Northeast. Um, and it's weird. It's a beautiful combination of like Trader Joe's, Costco, Whole Foods, um, and like Walmart. So it's like everyday low price. They have tons of assortment. They have their own private label and they have like, club packs. So it's like a really, um, It's a really great retailer. So that was our first break.

Speaker B: What do you think? There must be so many of these smaller brands who are at that stage before they kind of have the big breakthrough, but they just struggle to get it on the shelves. What is it that prevents people from getting there? Is it the fact that there isn't enough demand for the product, or is it like the sales pitch and the presentation to the buyer isn't good enough.

Speaker A: I think it's obviously situational in America. Like in the natural food movement, you can get to 10 million in the U.S. you do that online. But I think the typical barrier is actually probably price. So if you have some, like, homemade thing that's really premium, um, well sourced, your costs compared to what you're competing with are probably a lot higher. And so I think it's probably a price thing. Most likely, like in America, you can get to a niche, but, like, price really matters once you get to those markets. And especially when you're on shelf, when you're comparing it to other things so in isolation, you're like, oh, I'll take that. But when you're comparing it to something half the price, you're kind of. You're kind of screwed.

Speaker B: Because that's what most a typical consumer when they're walking through the aisle of the protein bar section. I mean, I guess a lot of different things will go through people's minds, but price will probably be one of the biggest things. And as you said, if. If your bar is going to be the most expensive bar on shelf, the likelihood of that person buying is gonna be pretty slim. Unless it's gonna be doing something or taste way better than the rest of competition.

Speaker A: Yeah. And. Yeah, and it either, like a nutrition claim would help, but if it's double the price, uh, you know, you're just gonna buy a quest bar.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: I think the only places where that doesn't really matter is if you get it in like, one, uh, or something.

Speaker A: Absolutely.

Speaker B: I bought. I bought a $20 strawberry from there.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Yeah. Just because it was, uh, I saw it, said it was $20. I was like, why is it $20?

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's.

Speaker B: I was like, let me. It was a good strawberry, but it was not worth $20.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think I've seen a $39 yogurt in there. Yeah. Yeah. So that's that market. So, like, you want to be able to win in erewhon, but then also win in like, um, Buc EE's in the Texas or Wisconsin. Like some you want to live in. You want to win in the middle of the country in a mass place and in a bougie place.

Speaker B: Yeah. The advantages of being in a bougie place is just the fact that you're on the shelf gives it credibility, I imagine.

Speaker A: Yeah. It gives you credibility. And it's. Yeah. I mean, the reality is you just want to win in the from the bigger market. But ah, but if you have like a premium innovative product. Yeah. And I, I do that. It's like fundamentally driven by price.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And, and price is a reflection of value.

Speaker B: Okay, so after you got that kind of first win, did you keep trying to get in other chain stores after that? Did I give you that? A kind of. Um, because you'd already had that signed off, you could then go to other big chains and be like, hey, look, we're in here. Do you want to stock up?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So, so Wegmans was like the test, right. We were like, if it works there similar how we were CrossFit, it works in one place, it's probably going to repeat. And so Wegmans was a big experiment. Uh, once that, once that one we had actually data to go to other retailers, other grocers. And then. Yeah, you just keep going. Um, and you want to match environments that are similar to Wegmans. Um, so like Publix in the Southeast and Florida would be a similar comp. Um, different regional grocers. And then the next massive break for us was, uh, Trader Joe's.

Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, that's big.

Speaker A: Which is like a huge, huge special retailer. Yeah. And they sell a lot of protein bars.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wonder if, if it's already gonna be on the shelves at a place like that, do you need to do much marketing outside of that? Um, you know what I mean? Like, if it's already there, people are like, oh, what's this? Let me try it. Yes, I've heard about this brand and there it is. So I'm gonna get it because I've already heard about it beforehand.

Speaker A: Yeah, I think if you haven't, we had enough digital awareness that we didn't need to like market directly for it. And I do think protein bars in particular, like, people like do shop it. So it's a bit of a treasure hunt. So I think the product would work hard in stores. So. So I don't think you need to market too hard. Like once you're there, it will, it should work.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, because also Trader Joe's, their, their category is really small. So they only carry five brands. Maybe, maybe, maybe 6 of the protein. Yeah, yeah, they're really selective. So the fact that you're just selected is a, is a huge, like that's all you really need to do. Mhm. Um, versus like a. Wegmans has maybe 30 or 40 brands where you kind of have to fight harder.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so different, different. Different market or environment.

Speaker B: So why do you Think they went with you?

Speaker A: Um, we were, we were the only type of sort of paleo protein bar. You remember. Whole 30.

Speaker B: Whole 30, yeah.

Speaker A: It was like a diet trend back elimination diet. Sort of a commercial paleo that was really, really popular. Um, and so I know the buyers were participating in that. Um, that was a 2000 2015.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Um, and we had a decent product.

Speaker B: Yeah, well, yeah, it's a good product for sure. Um, okay, so from that, the point where you started, you were making it in your kitchen to the exit. What timeframe was that?

Speaker A: March 2013 to October 6th, 2017. So four years, four and a half years. Yeah. And it sold for 600 million.

Speaker B: Nice.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: What was the equity split at that point? Was it primarily you?

Speaker A: Yeah, no, we didn't take any investors. Um, so it was me and my co founder and um, our staff. M. Yeah.

Speaker B: Nice. How did that feel?

Speaker A: Um, you know, there's a lot of money. Yeah, it's a lot of four years. Yeah. And like, you know, you go, you go paying yourself 52,000 a year to then all of a sudden like, you know, a very acute change in your wealth.

Speaker B: It's all in one go as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So I, um. It was, I would say it was a relief I think, to have financial freedoms of.

Speaker B: Relief.

Speaker A: I don't think it, um, because I think everyone's stressed about money. So to kind of, that was, it was a relief. But then, you know, I liked my job so I didn't, it wasn't like I didn't want to quit my job so I just, you know, went back to work the next day.

Speaker B: Um, but what would that work be defined as? Like. Yeah, from, from the, yeah, the, the, the exit. Was there any requirements from you to still do something or.

Speaker A: No, run it.

Speaker B: Because I know one of my friends, he's, he's based in Houston. Uh, uh, Max Tuning. I don't know if you know him, he, he's, he built and scaled sour strips.

Speaker A: Okay.

Speaker B: Like a candy bar. And Hershey's bought it for quite a substantial amount of money. But he still has a responsibility to do quite a lot of the marketing and marketing of the business because he was very good at that.

Speaker A: Was he like, did he have a social media following?

Speaker B: Yeah, it was, I mean he was a couple hundred thousand on Instagram, loyal followers. He had a YouTube channel as well. Every video would probably get around 80 to 100,000.

Speaker A: Okay. That's a lot. Yeah. So I didn't, I'm not, I wasn't really the face I was a CEO. But I, I didn't have like any social assets that were valuable. Um, I didn't have a contract or like an earnout. Um um. But I, I stayed for a year and a half. Um um. I did have a. I just viewed as a responsibility and, and a reputation to protect and um, the right thing to do is just finish my job and help transition it.

Speaker B: Um.

Speaker A: Um.

Speaker B: Yeah. Not just like stick things up more.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Like reputation is just important and I, I had a lot of respect for Kellogg and are still do and all like fundamentally I like I liked my job.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know what I mean? So um.

Speaker B: Is there ever a fear that when a company like that comes to purchase they're going to start tampering with how like the ingredients and everything? Because I know for, from what I remember that Cadbury's Chocolate UK brand like it was a tasted very unique and then it was acquired by an American brand and then they started changing all the ingredients and the Cadbury's Chocolate didn't taste the same anymore and ah. A lot of English people are annoyed really. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: I'm sure it happens. Um, but for, for our exper. Its whole position was around so you couldn't really do anything. And also like we already were kind of. We were at scale so we were you know we were the biggest buyer of dates in the United States.

Speaker B: Um what do you get from the Middle East?

Speaker A: We get them from uh Coachella Valley is where domestically they're produced and grown

Speaker B: and then what type of, what type of date.

Speaker A: So um, Majul and Yeah. And then Deglet too. And then those are from Tunisia and Algeria.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Are uh, where you can buy some supply from. So we were so like they're really. Yeah. It wasn't in their interest and um, um. Perhaps you know they probably bought the packaging better. Like we, you know that's stuff that didn't affect the product. Um so I don't think that happened. Um. But I'm sure it does because those generally large companies are really good at scaling and cost so um. Like. Yeah. So. But yeah they, I don't think they would be a prudent thing for them to do.

Speaker B: And during that, the time, the aftermath or like at least a year after the exit, did you take any time off and go do a lot of things that you wanted to do and buy maybe buy a couple things you wanted to buy or did you just. You're not interested.

Speaker A: So the once I left which was March of 2018 M. Yeah. I had like freedom and like, you know, your identity's in this company, so there's like this weird psychology. Like I, you know, like, you're the guy, so I'm not that. So there's a bit of like, you have to just grapple with your identity, um, and really break your identity from that because you don't control it. Um, and then, uh, I would say, like, I, I, I like cars. My uncle was a race car driver, Bobby Rahal. And so I grew up like, loving cars. So I bought some cars, but then quickly realized like, collecting things doesn't make sense.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So sold all the cars.

Speaker B: Were you in New York at the time?

Speaker A: I was in Chicago and then I went to Miami.

Speaker B: I was gonna say collecting cars in

Speaker A: New York probably isn't, can't do it here in Miami. Like, you just don't have, it's not like, it's actually not a good driving town M Other than like the causeway. Like, like that's it. So, but anyway, I bought some cars and I realized like, didn't really do it for me, so sold them. Um, and then I tried, like sound weird, but I basically became a workaholic. Um, because you get like a positive feedback loop. Like when you're winning, you're just getting this positive feedback loop. And so I try to like, re establish my relationship with fun, some hedonism. Uh, call it partying. Um, and I, I, it just like, wasn't fulfilling. Um, and then, uh, yeah, I mean,

Speaker B: I've been there before and I've done it and it's, it's, it's kind of one of those weird things that when you're younger you feel like, oh, it would be so good to make this amount of money so I can go and do all these things. Yeah. And then when you're actually doing it, you, you're like, oh, it's actually not that great. And particularly when you've, you've, you've built such a successful company, you're like, what, you sort of like, you feel like you're wasting your potential when you.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's totally. I, Hedonism is a sin and you realize why. Like, so it's not fulfilling. Um, but it's, I think it's a good thing to perhaps experience so you can understand it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But I, I, I was so much more fulfilled going on a journey of building a company and doing with people and like, that, that was fulfilling to me. And, and, and that's, it's delayed of gratification. It's like, so I wanted to get back to that asap. Um, but I had to not compete.

Speaker B: Um, how many years was that?

Speaker A: Five years.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So the idea was like, I'm gonna move to Miami, kind of get my life together, get my health back, because I stopped working out. So, like, get my health back sort of re. Established my relationship with work in a way, like, because it was a. It was just an addict.

Speaker B: Um, when you say work addict, what. What would a typical work day look like for you? This is like building the company.

Speaker A: It was just all I did. Like, I, you know, I was single. So I wake up, get on the computer, get a coffee, go to the office, work, go home, go to bed. It's just all consuming. So. But I loved it, you know, on

Speaker B: a Saturday and a Sunday as well.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, in theory, you're like, all right, well, a good life is a well balanced life. So that was like. And then, uh. And I kind of don't agree, actually. I think, like, if you want to achieve great things, you can't be balanced. And I wasn't happy when I was balanced. Um, so. But I. Yeah, you don't know what. You don't know.

Speaker B: Uh, I don't think I really know anyone. Like, for my friends who are building companies or people I've spoken to on the podcast that are really in that phase of building that can simultaneously do that and also have everything else balanced out, like, there just will be sacrifices you have to make. Some people, it will be friends, socializing, maybe relationships, health, all of it.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, like, I think Sheryl Sandberg has this quote which is so true. It's like, if you want greatness, so life, the domains of life is like social, health, sleep, family, work. Uh, choose three.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and even more extreme is like, choose two.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so sometimes I will get the

Speaker B: itch to not necessarily do something like this, but build something. And, um, I'm like, I know what it's going to require.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Um, I don't know if I want to do this.

Speaker A: Well, starting David, actually, like, because I got comfortable. I wasn't, like, grinding. I was working and investing. But right before I was starting it, I was like, shit. Like, am I ready to go back to that? Because I knew, like, once you start, it's going to suck you in. And I'm just going to go back to what I know, which, you know, it's like, if you want to be a great leader and do great things, like, you're going to. It's like you're going to sacrifice.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, some. Some Things and I remember being like hesitant. I was like. And uh, but then ultimately I was like, all right, I, I, you need to, you need to go on adventure, you need to go on a journey. Um, just go for it.

Speaker B: Yeah. So during this, there was this period of time with non compete. Um, you said you obviously did the little bit of hedonism investing. Did you ever think about just being like full time investor and doing that and watching money multiply even more?

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: What did you realize was this a completely different ball game when you had to get.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Invest.

Speaker A: I tried to be a professional investor. Um, I don't have the temperament for it and I, Yeah, I think it's like the only good thing about investing is your lifestyle because m. You don't have to work. You basically putting capital just giving it to someone else for them to do the work. Um, but I know it wasn't for me.

Speaker B: Um, did you have any wins in investing?

Speaker A: Yeah, SpaceX.

Speaker B: Oh really?

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, Olipop, Liquid Death. Um.

Speaker B: M. Oh, literally all. They were all huge.

Speaker A: Yeah. Pretty. Pretty.

Speaker B: Was it Olipop that sold for 800 mil?

Speaker A: They're still private.

Speaker B: Still private. Okay.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, but like once you build a company or you're an entrepreneur, like

Speaker B: it's

Speaker A: kind of like a drug. Like the feedback loops, like I just wasn't fulfilled. Like investing, you don't really do anything. So even if you get wins, it's not the same of like being with a team going through battles. Like it's just a, it's not like a, I guess you're on the sidelines. Like uh, I want to be in the game.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like fighting. So either money, it's not about, none of this is about money at this point. You know what I mean? It's about fulfillment.

Speaker B: And, and a lot of is out, uh, of your control is because you're just like, here's the money, you do your thing. Maybe like I can chip in.

Speaker A: Sure. But, but like really, that's not my. I'm. Yeah, I won't. Like I want to, I want to drive the car.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: So that's why I'm saying it wasn't. I don't have the temperament to be an investor.

Speaker B: Mhm. That makes sense.

Speaker A: The feedback loop sucks too because you have to make a decision and then you don't know if you're right for years, five years, 10 years. But if you're building a company, you make a product decision, the market tells you right away, you hire someone, you'd learn so much more.

Speaker B: MHM. So you, you had the itch to build something again and you decided, I'm gonna do another protein bar.

Speaker A: Yes.

Speaker B: Did you think maybe trying something different like oh, maybe a protein powder or a drink, a beverage?

Speaker A: Um, well, I had to not compete. So that was. So I spent five years like, all right, what else to do? I played around with like from fashion to buy, uh, synthetic biology, like, just let my curiosity run. But the consistent thing was like, I don't understand it enough to really feel confident to do it. Whereas like food and bars, like, I know that intrinsically. I know that deeply. So when I, whenever I started I was like getting close. I always basically chickened out because I didn't have.

Speaker B: Clothing is different ball game.

Speaker A: Yeah, totally.

Speaker B: Different sizes, different colors.

Speaker A: That's a nightmare.

Speaker B: People, uh, like with a bar you eat it and that's that with clothing. People try it on, they're like, oh, it doesn't fit me. I'm gonna send it back.

Speaker A: There's that and there's like, how are you different? It's actually like cool and then cool. Super abstract. Like shaping cool or making cool is really, really hard.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You know what I mean? Like, whereas a product is, it's objective, it's macronutrients, calories. Yeah. So it's much easier. But the fundamental thing is like, I need to, to start something, I need to deeply, deeply understand it. And so, um, by the time I had gone through this, my non compete was like a year away. So I was like, all right, I'm gonna have to go back. I'm the bar guy. It's great. You know, my tombstone is say like the bar. You know, something about bars.

Speaker B: So this time around you, you had a different approach. Was there a particular, I mean you would, you've obviously, you know the market well, you see what's on the shelves. Did you think there's something missing here or something I can do a little bit different?

Speaker A: Yeah. So. Mhm. RX to date, like RX to David was really a reflection, uh, of my sort of comprehension of nutrition. Um, and if you look at what people want in a nutrition bar, protein bar, it's like they want the most protein with the least amount of calories.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker A: You basically want a protein delivery system that tastes good. Um, and so looking at the market, I was like, all right, everything's sort of concentrating on like 20 grams of protein, 200 calories. And then I just knew if I just get got back in the game, I could totally beat those numbers, um, and deliver something with a superior Macronutrient profile and ultimately fundamentally a product I wanted to. And so, um, and then like uh, moving away from ideology because something my experience at RXBar was like we were Paleo two years in. Everyone that was like our early adopters, our loyal customers went to keto and I'm like, wait a second, guys, like. And then they were like anti carb, anti. Um, basically skipping breakfast and. And then they, after that they went to, yeah, fasting and then they went to Carnivore.

Speaker B: But it's always another trend around. I know.

Speaker A: And that's a really volatile thing to build a brand around. So nutrition's really loaded with a different ideologies. It's a kind of a religious thing. And so I wanted something that's truly more of an intellectual position and fact based, um, rather than. Yeah. Something ideological. And so, um.

Speaker B: Do you remember when there was a specific point in time when protein started to become a big thing? Because, you know, at one point there was. You wouldn't see protein anywhere on any of the products. But now you see it on cereal, you see it on yogurts, you see on literally everything. It's like you have the big words, protein in it and that's the thing that brings people's attention to it.

Speaker A: Yeah. So like when did protein go from. For sport and bodybuilding to the mass market? It. I don't know the moment. Uh, it's certainly, I think 20, early 2020s became obvious. And uh, what's really accelerated it is GLP1s.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because everyone's taking them and everyone's going to probably take them. And then the, when you take them, the, the first piece of advice, you

Speaker B: need to still eat your protein.

Speaker A: Yeah. Eat protein because you, you don't want to lose muscle.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and so that's, you know, you have basically large part of the population that hasn't thought about nutrition. This first thing they're thinking about with nutrition when they're taking a Jupiter 1 is protein. So I think that over the last two years has really, really accelerated protein as like this sort of hero macronutrient. Some stuff that bodybuilders have known since forever.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and it's, you know, when you think about it as a macronutrient, it's like, all right, there's carbohydrates, fats, those are energy, really tastes good, easy to get. Protein's the one that's difficult to consume. So anything that makes it easier to consume and at a good price is super valuable.

Speaker B: And taste.

Speaker A: And taste. Yeah. It doesn't taste good tastes.

Speaker B: I, uh, mean, for me, I don't really care, like, as long as it's got the protein and I'll just eat it. If it's good for me, I'll eat it. But the. The mass market general population, they're not like that. Like, they need to be a candy bar, basically.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: But a healthy one or one that's got high protein. So I guess, like, that's. That's something which almost needs to be. One of the most important things is that the. The macros, the taste and the ingredients. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: And then price.

Speaker B: Yes. On price.

Speaker A: Yeah. But you remember back, like, 2010, protein products sucked.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: Like, RTD drinks, powders weren't even a good. But now today, the powders are amazing. There's so many good powders. RTD drinks are great. Um, even bars have come up super far away. Um, food is definitely harder than beverage.

Speaker B: Yeah. I think we're in the uk. A company that cracked. It was Grenade. Yeah. Like, they were. They seemed to dominate at one point. I can't remember if they. I think it was the. I think they did a lot of different supplements, but it was the bars that really stood out.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: They were the ones that had somehow managed to make a really delicious bar. I remember having them all the time and then obviously they exited and did very well. But the, um. That's the UK market. I don't think they really. They have a presence at all in the us.

Speaker A: Um, I don't see them often. Who bought them? Do you know?

Speaker B: I don't know, actually.

Speaker A: Was it Ferrero?

Speaker B: We can find out.

Speaker A: I think it was Ferrero. Either Hershey or Ferrero. Um, but the European market is, um, difficult for protein bars.

Speaker B: Why is that?

Speaker A: Um, I think in the UK you have demand for it.

Speaker B: Mondela's International.

Speaker A: Mondelez.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Good pronunciation for me.

Speaker A: Yeah. No, it's a. It's a weird name. It's a weird name. They made it up, though. That used to be, like, us, uh, foods or something. Uh, or, um. So, like. Like France.

Speaker B: Yeah. But I guess every country has different rules and regulations and they just have their own culture.

Speaker A: Like, I think if you go to France, you're like, here's a protein, brother. Be like, what's it? Why would you eat that? Like, they have fresh street food. That's so good. And they have a culture around food, so. And they don't have a fitness culture the same time.

Speaker B: No. France and Italy.

Speaker A: No.

Speaker B: Not very good. Like, even when I go there, the gyms are so terrible.

Speaker A: I know. And they're like, once I went there when I was like 16, I went for a run and they were like, why are you running? Like, where are you going? And I was. It was after, like a philosophical question, I was like, that's actually a really good point. Like, what am. What am I doing? Like, I should just have a coffee and a cigarette.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so, like, um. But you can measure where the protein bars are by, like, gyms per capita. So the Nordics, Iceland, um, the uk, the Germanic area. That's where protein bars do. Well. M. Um.

Speaker B: But I guess if you cracked America,

Speaker A: like, it's all that matters.

Speaker B: Yeah. Cause I know, like, some of my friends who, they've started companies like that. They're just. Whether even in the fashion world, you know, if they've done all right in the uk, they're like, right, let's go to America. Like, we need to collect. My friend George Heaton got represent. Like, he's trying to capitalize on California now. Yeah, California.

Speaker A: Yeah. It's just so easy to do business here.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: And there's none of this tallest tall poppy syndrome, if you heard of that.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: Like, everyone wants you to win. Like, it's beautiful.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like, yeah. So it's just an easy place to do business.

Speaker B: And raising money as well is easy.

Speaker A: Oh, yeah. There's risk capital. There's no, like, class stuff. It's just like, everyone wants to win.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. All right, guys, quick pause here. I've got a question for you. Are you in shape? Are you not in shape? Is there work to do? Most likely. If so, I have the tool for you which is going to help you out massively. It's the Thirst app. This is something which I personally use myself when it comes to my training and my nutrition. I have all the programs in there which I use on a regular basis. And, um, for those who are just looking to lose a bit of body fat, the same thing goes for women as well. A lot of people don't realize that I used to coach for a large chunk of my life. So all of my coaching experience has been put inside of this app. I want you to learn as much as possible about how to get yourself in shape. There's exclusive videos in there telling you how to do it, how to execute exercises properly. The foods which I eat, and a newly added, added nutrition section where you can track your meals and your daily macros is pretty much this pocket sized version of myself which you can carry around with you all day. Every day. So if there's something which might interest you, which it definitely will do, I highly suggest check out links in the description, head over to the Thirst app, get it downloaded. You will not regret it. Let's crack on with the episode. So I'm going to. I want to eat your. Which is your favorite out of these? Chocolate chip peanut butter or the fudge brownie?

Speaker A: Um, um, for me, anything. Uh, chocolate Chocolate's king chocolate chip is that.

Speaker B: It's very unique packaging. I remember when this came out, I was like, who's David? What's that about?

Speaker A: That me? Yeah.

Speaker B: Sound the same though, Peter.

Speaker A: No, that's the nar. That's too narcissistic. Um, so the origin name is, uh, Michelangelo's masterpiece, the sculpture David.

Speaker B: Oh, okay.

Speaker A: Yeah. So, um, and it embodies the values of the company and how we approach products. So. So

Speaker B: I mean, we're talking more ingredients than the Rx bar.

Speaker A: Very different philosophy.

Speaker B: Mhm. So because there's way more ingredients. How on earth. Uh, first of all, how do you decide we're going to use these ingredients? And then the ratios and combinations and I'm pretty sure. Haven't you got an, uh, ingredient here which is like patented or something?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we have, um, proprietary ingredient, um, epg, which is, um, a modified triglyceride that, um, it's a high. It's a hard fat, so it's a high melt point, but it's. You can't digest it. So.

Speaker B: So how, how the hell did you figure that one out or come up with it?

Speaker A: So if you look at, uh, what, what are the components of a protein bar? You need a protein system. Like, and then you want to optimize that for PETA casts. So amino acids, texture, taste. Um, that's why our blend is a certain way is to make sure it's a one PETA cast and still soft. Um, and then you get to fat. So right. You need fat for taste and, and mouth feel. And that fat has like, try peanut butter without fat. It's terrible. Yeah, like, that's what makes peanut butter great. So, right. People want the most protein, least amount of calories. So you get to fat as the component. We're like, what are you gonna do? Almond butter goes rancid, doesn't always taste good. Uh, high in calorie palm oil. It's like, no one really wants that. No one wants to eat that. Then you go to like, what, beef tallow? It's like, I don't want heart disease. And so then you get to Fat. You're like, well, I actually want. I don't want any fat really, but I need it. So what is a fat that, um, can deliver all the benefits without the calories? And that's when we discovered epg, um, which, um, was just sitting there as a technology, but, um, it wasn't utilized.

Speaker B: Is this something that you came up with from your knowledge of ingredients, or have you got, like, scientists involved at this point?

Speaker A: Well, it was sitting there, so we. It was in the market. Um, it was, um. An entrepreneur named David Rowe pulled, uh, it out of university and was like, this is like the holy grail in nutrition because at least in the American diet, like energy toxicity, the over consumption of calories is like the main driver of most negative health outcomes. Um, and so he commercialized it and was just trying to sell it as an ingredient. But when you're selling an ingredient as, like an ingredient business, it's really hard because you have this chicken or the egg problem where, okay, I'm going to try to sell this to Mondelez, for example. Mondelez will look at it and be like, well, you don't have enough supply to support any of our business. I can't buy enough from you. And then as the ingredient seller, you don't have enough demand to generate the supplies. So. So it's a really hard predicament to sell an ingredient like this. So, um, when we started, it was like, very clear that, like, these two entities are way better at vertically integrated.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so we can grow sales and supply, um, at a sustainable rate.

Speaker B: I'm surprised they didn't get on board with something like that.

Speaker A: Well, to make their own product, they tried making chocolate. But, you know, you gotta be a good marketer. You have to be a good product developer. Um, it's hard to work with. It's not like, uh.

Speaker B: Because these companies, I guess they're not really starting brands from scratch.

Speaker A: No, they're just, they're just technology.

Speaker B: Other people do the hard work and when it does, well. Okay, we'll buy you now.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then they scale it. Yeah. Okay. Um, Right. So you've got the ingredients. You probably did a load. How many original flavors, uh, of the bar did you start off with?

Speaker A: Four. Just four. Uh, cookie dough, cake batter, blueberry and fudge brownie. Um, um. And it's a pretty iterative pro. Like, we just keep. It's a constant process to, like, improve.

Speaker B: And you, um, this time around, you're getting other people involved, investors.

Speaker A: Yeah, we had a RX far is relatively bootstrapped or minimally minimal amount of capital driven by. I had no credibility. Right. Like, if I could. If I had credibility, I would have raised money, probably. Um, which is a good constraint. Um, um, but this time to acquire the company and I have a balance sheet. Um, it's a different strategy. Yeah. So we've raised about $95 million in three rounds.

Speaker B: Nice.

Speaker A: Yeah. So seed, two seed rounds and then the series A to acquire Apogee.

Speaker B: Was there specific people that you wanted on board this time around?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: So what type of people they.

Speaker A: So Valor Equity Partners. Um, I just, um, got close with them as soon as I started, uh, investing. Um, saw how they operated and then, um, Green Oaks as well, which is. They're both like tech investors. Um. So, um, yeah, believe in. Believe in me and the business. So they're like. They're not like private equity, more venture.

Speaker B: I guess one of the strongest things for you is the fact that you've been there, you've done it, and you come into these guys, look, I'm going to do this again.

Speaker A: Yeah, that's super helpful.

Speaker B: Do you want to get involved with this? Basically? And they're like, okay, yeah. And ah, I guess the goal is you just want it to get up and running as fast as possible. Because from the scaling of rx, uh, although you did that pretty quickly in a short period of time, this time around you like, okay, let's try and speed that up as much as possible.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think my general approach is like, you want to find product market fit. That means when the demand's coming to you, like the market's pulling you, pulling your product. Um, once you do that, you build the company and organization around that product. And then once you get that product to scale, next thing is like, all right, let's go platform it and build. Find more product market fit and, and like bring great products to market that, you know, bring the future forward, make it easier to live life the way you want to. Just keep disrupting. And so, um, yeah, as like a CEO, I think the job is like, all right, once you get product market fit, your job is to fulfill that demand as fast as possible.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and you don't want to like, there's some limit of like breaking things because if you do grow too fast, I think things can break.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, I remember when. I don't know when. What was the day you officially launched? Was there a day?

Speaker A: Yeah. September 14, 2020. Um, for.

Speaker B: Yeah, because I remember it was. There was nothing there. And then that's everywhere. It was everywhere. Yeah, you know, we don't necessarily. I mean, obviously I'm based in Dubai, so it's not like I was seeing it on shelves, but I've seen it online, but I think it was more. So you got people talking about it.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Primarily because of the fact that it.150 calories in a bar. So first of all, that's like, what the hell? Uh, like, have you managed to do that? And, uh, then second of all, I think there is something unique about the branding. Like just David kind of. It's. It's weird, but it works well.

Speaker A: It's like. Yeah. So I think we had, like, product. The product was really different with the protein of a meal, calories of a snack, you know, pretty hard. You don't really. I'd never seen that. And the branding was just different. Like, we're not yelling. We're not yelling. Protein. Um, M. David's a ma. Super masculine name. Quite M. Gender coded. It's gold.

Speaker B: Five letters as well. Seems to.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's easy to say, easy to remember. It's a strong name.

Speaker B: M. And you didn't have any. Did you have any ambassadors or anything pushing it? Yes, he did. Yeah.

Speaker A: Peter Tia.

Speaker B: Oh, yeah.

Speaker A: And, uh, Dr. Andrew Huberman and Lane. And Lane Norton. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: So I've had Lane. Lane's be on the podcast. Um. Um, I'm yet to meet Andrew.

Speaker A: Who's stronger, you or Lane?

Speaker B: He's gonna be. He'll be stronger. He does the strength training stuff. So he. He's. He'll be. He's there doing his, his. His squats and his deadlift. I think he's still doing the Sumo deadlift.

Speaker A: I don't do that, which is cheating.

Speaker B: Yeah. Just do a normal deadlift. My other friend Matt, this fitness. He always used to do that type of deadlift.

Speaker A: I'm like, you just do so much more Sumo.

Speaker B: I need to do an all. It looks way cooler doing a normal deadlift.

Speaker A: You definitely look cooler doing a. Yeah,

Speaker B: but I think it's, um. Risk of injury on the spine is a little bit less.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's an anatomy thing too. If you have longer legs. Yeah, I think it's easier.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um, yeah, I'm not really bothered about strength. I just want to.

Speaker A: You don't care at all.

Speaker B: I. I trained purely for aesthetics. Yeah. Although recently I have, uh, I've tweaked my programming so it's more low volume now. I've reduced the reps, so I've. I'm definitely stronger than I've ever been. And it just looks cooler when you're shifting more weight.

Speaker A: Yeah. So I mean it feels good moving heavyweight.

Speaker B: Yeah. Like I'm, I'm 35 now and I didn't think like I would be getting stronger at this age.

Speaker A: You're getting old man strength. It's starting to come in.

Speaker B: Yeah. So um, yeah, I have a battle

Speaker A: between aesthetic and strength. I mean I don't work out like I used to, but.

Speaker B: But I mean this time around though, you got a healthier relationship with you gone back to the.

Speaker A: I'm going back. Yeah. No, I, well I have a, I have a two year old and a wife.

Speaker B: Okay.

Speaker A: So then it's even, it's nice because it sets a boundary. Like I, I want to be home for dinner but then it's like I spend time with my son and my wife or like work out. They m. Always win. So my m current I, I do, I try to do weekends and then at our office we have a squat rack and a uh, pull up and dip bar. So I'll just do bench press pull ups in the morning for like 20 minutes. And that actually helps.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because my gen, like my phenotype, like I just get skinny if I don't resist. I, I don't, I don't hold my muscle.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I, I hope you made a low calorie protein bar as well.

Speaker A: I know.

Speaker B: Should be having a 500 calorie protein bar. He's struggling to gain.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Like sitting in, like sitting in a desk is like the worst thing for you. So. And eating all these diet foods.

Speaker B: Um, did you, when you, when you launched it as well, were these already on the shelves? A lot of um, stores?

Speaker A: No, we started just dot com.

Speaker B: So it was all online.

Speaker A: Yep.

Speaker B: Oh damn. Okay.

Speaker A: Yeah, it was. And, and the reason is like if you try to line it with a retailer, it gives you some inflexibility on timing. So the idea was just like launch on our own schedule, introduce the product and then work with the retailers, um, in the next six months.

Speaker B: Mhm. So on a lot. What were the numbers on launch?

Speaker A: Um, the first week we did a million dollars in sales.

Speaker B: Nice. So was that more than you? A lot more.

Speaker A: We thought we forecasted 500,000. I thought we were going to do a million, so we did. But.

Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Are you able to meet that demand?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: I mean what if there was more? If in a hypothetical situation the demand was even more, would you have been able to meet the supply at that point?

Speaker A: Yeah, because we would have been out of Stock, probably. If. Yeah, I mean, we could have been. We would have been able to replenish.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, inventory. But there. I mean, arguably there's more demand in the market. It was just people didn't want to pay online, you know, like. But if we were in stores, it probably would have worked.

Speaker B: Yeah. Um.

Speaker A: Cause there's a lot of friction with online.

Speaker B: You're like, yeah. Were people just buying from one? Was it just the official website and that was. It wasn't on Amazon or anything like that?

Speaker A: Yeah, no Amazon, just. David. Protein.com.

Speaker B: okay, nice. And then from that point, it's just a matter of you were bringing out different flavors. You released the cod bar as well, which I'm, um. Yet to try.

Speaker A: I should have brought you some.

Speaker B: I can't. Where. Where stocks the cod bar?

Speaker A: Just on our Internet. Just on the Internet.

Speaker B: Oh, okay.

Speaker A: I was wondering why it's our most innovative product.

Speaker B: It's so that's what I love to have, though. Just give me some protein and. Have you ever. You've been to Japan?

Speaker A: No, I haven't.

Speaker B: Okay. So if you go to the 7Elevens in Japan, they've got things like. They've got like, bars of, like, uh, chicken, right? Yeah. Or like crab. Or like, just a chicken breast, like the fish. Things like that. And it's, like, super clean.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's.

Speaker B: But I don't know.

Speaker A: It's literally just like, protein.

Speaker B: Yeah. But, uh, for example, the cod bar, does that need to be refrigerated or not?

Speaker A: Well, we did two versions of cod. Our first one was frozen cod, so boiled cod. And then we realized it was really inconvenient. It's frozen.

Speaker B: Yeah. Ah. If you try cook frozen cod, you need to know what you're doing.

Speaker A: The best thing about cod is it's pretty neutral other than its nutrition. It's superior nutrition. So then we were like, all right, well, how do we continue to innovate? And we're, um. Like, let's can it. Um, so you can cook it in a can.

Speaker B: And then.

Speaker A: So we just did salt and lemon and retorted it. And now it's canned card.

Speaker B: So it comes in a can? Yeah. Okay. Are you able to keep that, like, clean and everything? So I forgot. Who's I speaking to? I was speaking to someone. And, um, when they're putting the cardi. The sardines or mackerel in a can, they do it. It's really hot. And then it, like, releases some of the.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. From the lining. You can do pH. BH.

Speaker B: Because that's a big thing, right? The, uh, microplastics and what the actual product is being, uh, contained in.

Speaker A: Yeah. So if you have. It's basically heat plasticizer. So whenever there's heat interfacing, like the food item touching plastic or something, and then heat applying to it. Yeah, it's like a coffee maker. If it's like you have boiling water dripping on a. That sort of hard plastic that can go into, um, your product. Um, if you're pasteurizing dates in a plastic tray, that will happen. It's actually an argument for why certain processed foods are good is because they actually are clean. They're refined and filtered, so they don't have it. Whereas some agricultural products have it more.

Speaker B: What's an unsuspecting one? Dates. I'm gonna have to reevaluate where I'm getting my dates.

Speaker A: So if they're like, basically if they're steam. Steam pasteurized. Yeah. So if they're steam pasteurized in a plastic thing because you want to pasteurize them because they're dirty, like you want to clean, you want food safety. Food safety is totally under appreciated, you know. Um, so. But if it's done in metal, no problem. But if it's done in a plastic tray, then you have a problem. Yeah, you can all test for all this stuff. So we test for everything.

Speaker B: What do you find a lot of people try and come after you for or get you for if you face a bit of controversy.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think one, they don't believe the macros because they're so good. But we have plenty of research on that.

Speaker B: Um, but who's, who's making these claims?

Speaker A: Um, there's like just plaintiff lawyers that are, you know, they do this for a living.

Speaker B: Um, sort of fuck people's businesses up.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's sort of a. I think it's like a healthy thing to have that, I guess just, you know.

Speaker B: You know what's been pretty controversial recently is these, uh, creatine gummies. So a lot of creatine gummies on the market that are claiming to have a certain amount of creatine and they don't have the creatine.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So you're basically just having a gummy with like a tiny fraction of creatine in. So that's. I mean, that's fair and that should be done because that's. You shouldn't be advertising a product, a creatine product if you have no creatine in.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So it makes sense.

Speaker A: There needs to be accountability mechanisms on the market. I think it's healthy. Um, so that um. But our. We are 150 calories. Um, we just have a cool technology that's unknown. Um, and then um, I think it's just a general. Like there's like the natural food crowd, which. Cause I came from that crowd world. Um, and so they sort of. There's no room for nuance where they'll think like our product's a tool to like it's not a well balanced. We're not saying like eat this for breakfast, lunch and dinner. Yeah, it's if you want to hit protein goals or you hit whatever nutrition goals you have, like we're the best product out there to supplement protein for your diet because it's, it's hard. Like um. By no means do we advocate like only eating protein bars for breakfast, lunch or dinner.

Speaker B: Like. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: So there's some people that don't. There's like no room for nuance in nutrition or um, um. Like we make a really good processed food that is, is. Has the highest protein and calorie ratio, the most important, most important macronutrient. Um, we have the highest amount of it. So.

Speaker B: Well, I mean especially if you're, if you, if you are trying to lose weight, you're. You're on a diet. I mean if I was doing a competition again and you know, I was trying to cap my calories at like 2000, this would be a lifesaver.

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: Just like something to satisfy the sweet tooth. That's only 150 calories. It's pretty ridiculous. And nearly 30 grams of protein as well.

Speaker A: Yeah, I mean it's a. We, we are at like the biophysics limit of what you can make a protein bar.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: You can't go more. It's super hard.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So, um, but like whenever you um. Anything new, anything disruptive, innovative, it's part of the territory.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Um, but you know, we're just focused on making the best product and keep moving forward.

Speaker B: And you recently launched ice cream. Yes, I saw that and I saw it was just sold out.

Speaker A: Yeah, we totally underestimated demand. I mean it's uh, uh, probably our best product. And I'm the most critical because what you're comparing it to is Ben and Jerry's 1200 calories. Ours is 260. Ours is 30. 30 gram of whey. 30 gram of whey protein. Like the nutritional profile completely changes how you can eat the product and how frequently you can eat it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so what was the, what was the.

Speaker B: There was another one that came Out a couple years ago, did quite well. And I think it kind of halo top. Yeah, that was the one. Yeah, they were getting. They were getting a bit of heat because it was. There's a lot of air in it.

Speaker A: Yes. Called overrun.

Speaker B: What's that?

Speaker A: So when you make ice cream, you can whip air into it.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and so if you want to reduce calories, there's sort of two things you do. Take cream down, which is all the flavor, the fat, which makes it icy if you do that. So add water or reduce. Or add air. And so that's how they reduce calories was through air and water.

Speaker B: So you're in reality getting.

Speaker A: Yeah, so if you look at the actual, like, grams of product. Yeah, uh, net. Net water, air. It's not that much.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So ours is like a full. Full fat, um, very indulgent product. Um, which is. Taste is everything. So. And if you're eating ice cream, it's gotta be indulgent. You're not gonna be like, yeah, but it's good nutrition. Like, you're not eating ice cream for nutrition.

Speaker B: No. Yeah, it's gotta. It's gotta taste good.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So what's the. What's the move with that now, with the ice cream? Um, I don't mean like, okay, so you sold out. How quickly can you get it back in stock?

Speaker A: We're literally making it as you speak. Um, and then we're rolling out with Target. Um, so.

Speaker B: Nice.

Speaker A: Yeah, so that's great retailer. Um, so just focus on supporting them. And then, um. Yeah, we have a. We have a scoop shop here in. In Manhattan. Um, but, you know, we just want to.

Speaker B: Hi, Rob. Did you see a van? Yeah. Is that what it was? There was a huge David van.

Speaker A: Would it have ice cream on it or a bar? Okay, you saw the. Yeah, it's all right. We have, uh, different trucks with ads on it.

Speaker B: Uh, okay.

Speaker A: But ice cream truck is something we want to do. Um, but we're currently just getting product to market and getting it, um, with the right retailers.

Speaker B: There's a cool spot I saw it's opened in Dubai more recently. It was a Greek yogurt place. Greek yogurt seems to be trending. But you go up to the machine and you pour it yourself. There was, like, six different flavors, and then you can pour, you know, exactly the amount you want of each flavor. And then you go to the counter and you weigh it, and then you.

Speaker A: What's it called?

Speaker B: It was like, uh.

Speaker A: Is it Mythos?

Speaker B: No, no, it's. It was really good. Like, I had a huge tub of it and I didn't, I didn't feel terrible after that.

Speaker A: No, it's a lot of. I think there's a lot of protein in it.

Speaker B: Let me see if I can find it. Uh, Go Greek.

Speaker A: Go Greek. Yeah, there's one here that's got lines like crazy.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, yeah, I think that's. Would you be surprised if that ends up doing better than the bar?

Speaker A: That's our internal debate.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: Because it's like a better product. It's, it's our best product. So I think it could, I mean. Yeah, it just.

Speaker B: But then does that mean you have to kind of decide what you're going to do with the resources you have? Like, you're like, okay, we got, these are resources. We got that we can scale above versus scaling the ice cream. Can you do both simultaneously or do you have to kind of prioritize one over the other?

Speaker A: Uh, we should be able to do both.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: And uh, the limiting factor would be whey protein isolate.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: That market's tight.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So yeah.

Speaker B: Nice. So like what does your day to day look like now? Are you just back to full on grind mode and then weekends off?

Speaker A: Um, yeah. Wake up usually to a crying baby. Sort m of have a coffee with him and my wife and then yeah, just go to the office, might do some bench press there for 10 minutes, some pull ups if I'm not too tired and then yeah, just work till 6 or 7, have dinner, uh, go back, get caught up on emails at night and then just do that again. And then Saturdays, um, try to. Yeah, if you need an hour session at the gym would be nice.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: And I just do like Bulgarians. I just do Bulgarians. Pressing and pulling. Nice to cover like the fundamental like deficit. The hardest.

Speaker B: If you want to say, you know, when you're in the gym training, are you thinking, man, I can't wait for this to be over so I can just get back to work in the big. Because for me when I'm in the gym I'm like, there is nothing else I would rather be doing right now.

Speaker A: No, I'm not. I love the gym. When you take a break it's painful to get back. But then once you just. I find if you just get a good.

Speaker B: Yeah. Like you have to keep it going. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker A: If I, if I just gotta break a sweat and get moving then I like get in the gear and can train for a while. Uh, but the beginning is just annoying. You're just like Fuck yeah. But then once I get over, like, well, basically once I crack a sweat,

Speaker B: it's usually the first, like, particularly I fight it sometimes with leg day. It's like the first 10, 15 minutes you, you need to get into this zone. It's like a flow state.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And then when you've got into that flow state where you're quite happy with tolerating discomfort and you can push it a little bit further, then you're like, okay, this is, this is fine now. And then you do your session, you feel great afterwards, but it's just that the lead up to it, thinking about the fact that you are going to need to do it and then the first 10, 15 minutes, particularly if you hadn't slept good or you're in a rush. I find for me one of the hardest things. If I have a really busy schedule and there's a lot of things to do mentally, I'm, um, thinking about all the things that I should be doing.

Speaker A: Yeah, you're not.

Speaker B: When I really need to just be. I need to completely forget about all of that and just be fully present in the moment of that gym session.

Speaker A: That's why I can't work out during the, during the week I have a problem because the morning I'm just like, I need, I have to do.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So then I'm like this, this at, uh, the pm it's absolutely no because I'm like just. You can't jam in the middle day.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Weekends are great because I can just fully get into that zone. And then I found is, I got, I'm like 40, I'm 40 now. I just have to like properly warm up and get like the movement pattern down. And then like, I'll do like a couple warm ups and then I get into the, get into the zone. But if I try to rush it,

Speaker B: I'm just like, yeah, no, I, I will refute. There's certain sessions I will refuse to do. If I am, um, on, um, a tight training window. If it's less than an hour, ah, there's no point. I'm not going to train legs less than an hour. If it's less than an hour.

Speaker A: Yeah, no, like, can't rush it.

Speaker B: My sessions, especially now because I do like a bit of a rest in between and um, you know, I just like to take my time. I don't like thinking like I have to get this done unless I can get it done. But I'd prefer not to be rushed.

Speaker A: Yeah. It depends on your goal. Like.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because the time, the rest Is important if you're truly trying to get a stimulus. I try to. This is a bit of my CrossFit baggage is like I try to shorten rest so I can get some cardiovascular response. Uh, but my goals are just not to lose my muscle. I could just maintenance.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, so just different.

Speaker B: And how, how does. You're the CEO.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Okay. And how big is the team? How many people?

Speaker A: Uh, about 105. All. All in office.

Speaker B: Mhm. And they, they're all well behaved.

Speaker A: We have an awesome team. Why I chose New York to do it is.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Because the town, like New York's this magnet for young ambitious people. And so, you know, we have a super, super strong, productive.

Speaker B: It's quite a young team.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Average age is probably 28.

Speaker B: That's good.

Speaker A: Yeah. Um, no, it's the best. It's like the best part of building the company is like doing it with who you do it with. Like m. It's my social life. You know what I mean? So, um, is there anything that you

Speaker B: do in particular to try and first of all hire the best talent? I mean, obviously being in New York is going to be one thing that helps. And then on top of that, how to get the most out of them, how to ensure that they're all productive.

Speaker A: I think, um, having a clear vision where everyone knows. Everyone knows where they're going and why we're going, where we're going really is helpful. That sort of clarity of a vision. And then smart people want to be with smart people. So being in office, having leaders present there. And I sort of like, you want to work, you want to be really demanding, but not irreasonable. Not irreasonable. Um, and we have like a, our leadership approach. Just generally leaders are a servant leader. There's no heavy people, managers, everyone works. Um, and the best thing is like, you just like look around, you can tell like everyone's doing their like, career's best work. Like we're on this rocket ship and you just look to the left, you're like, all right, that person's like doing their career and career's best work. And um, it just raises the bar. Um, I think it must be, it

Speaker B: must be exciting to be working for a company that is growing at such a fast rate. And it's kind of like you've really seen these new products and they're selling out and it's cool, it's trendy.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B: They're like, uh, you're involved on everyone's

Speaker A: fingerprints is all over the Company. Um.

Speaker B: Did you give, did you give equity? Equity way to some of the stuff?

Speaker A: Yeah. Everyone.

Speaker B: Every single.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Well that's a huge motivation driver then.

Speaker A: Yeah, you want everyone to feel. Feel involved, um, have little skin in the game. Um, but the funny thing is like the company's two and a half years old. Three maybe, coming on three, but it feels like a decade.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So it's this weird relationship with time. Like it's called dog years. Like one year is actually like seven years. It's really weird because we're just achieving so much so fast. So it's just like, it's a huge stimulus for like learning and growth. Like um, um. And so it's. Yeah. It's a privilege to be part of.

Speaker B: Are you part of the hiring process?

Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker B: So you will kind of check everyone that's coming in?

Speaker A: Yeah, it's like I, it's always. This is the hardest. I think the hard part of being CEO is like. Yeah, I want to. It's. Hiring is like probably one of the most important processes of the company. And I will do it as. For as long as I can.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: But there's at some point where it just breaks. Um, that's probably around 200 people.

Speaker B: Um, you can't just be sat there all day, just.

Speaker A: No, yeah, your calendar will be just, just interviews and um. But with AI now, you know, we're getting a lot of operating, uh, technology leverage, so.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: People are just way more productive.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So we don't know what the uh, like you know, five years ago it'd be like, oh, we're probably gonna need a team of 300, 400, 500. But now it's, you can get real, you can use these tools and it makes you so much more productive.

Speaker B: So are you getting the staff all trained up on AI or are you just hiring specific people to manage the AI stuff?

Speaker A: No, we're using it. Yeah, we have a team dedicated to building tools. But um, yeah, everyone's using it sort of as a, as um, a sort of a, like a, an analyst in a way. And then um, trying to build like an intelligence layer, um, to aggregate everything. But yeah, that's, that's all. It's pretty. It's a whole new frontier. It's like the Internet. It's like, it's like going from the fax to email. It's like a huge inflection point. Um, and I don't want to be like a boomer, you know?

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. What. So what is the goal again? To exit at some Point because is, it's just going to be a repeat where, okay, you, you exit, you, you're gonna make a load of money again and you'll know that that's not gonna really satisfy you and then you just, you won't have anything to do. You don't want to invest. So. Yeah, it seems like you just kind of want to keep growing this business for as long as possible and.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: And almost not sell it. Yeah, I don't.

Speaker A: Yeah, I, like, I think that one thing that's true is like, great companies don't sell. Um, and we want to build a really great company. So. Um, you know, I, I don't, I don't. We have too much growth ahead to sell. Like, like, the reason to financially sell is like, when you're. You think the growth, you can't really see, like you've hit your ceiling of growth. Um, so. But I, Yeah, I don't know. If I were to sell. I just do it again. And the hardest part is building the org, like building the team and that, that's the asset. Um, so no, we want to build just the best, the best company possible.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, and if people need liquidity, there's ways to do that. So.

Speaker B: So where would you see the company in five years? Like, what would you.

Speaker A: Five years. So our, um, we have this technology platform with epg. So, um, we're actually migrating two weeks to rename the parent company. So the company's called Medici, named after, um, the patrons of the Renaissance. Um, and the reason for the name is, um, northern Italy in the 15th century, 16th century was this bastion of art and science. And a lot of what we do is encompassing that. Um, and so under Medici will be multiple brands. So our first brand is David, um, Michelangelo's masterpiece. And that will be all about protein, like protein to calorie ratio. So we'll have a bar portfolio, ice cream, RTD protein chips. Um, and that's the focus there. And then we'll have a new brand called Hall Pass, the double entendre. Uh, everyone wants a hall pass. Um, and so that will be confection. So chocolate. So low calorie m. Um, confection products. So I think Cadbury, but like, has

Speaker B: anyone done that yet?

Speaker A: No, no. It's really, really great products. Um, that's launching this fall. And then we have, um, a couple other brands, um, we're working on. And so there'll be four brands, um, in five years.

Speaker B: Nice.

Speaker A: Yeah. So it'll be a platform of different, like a house of brands, um, and so that's the thing is that we have so much fun, exciting, disruptive, really innovative products coming. And then there's a whole like international question.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, which we haven't figured out.

Speaker B: Would you. Is one of those products going to be uh, similar to Rx where it's just minimal ingredients.

Speaker A: No, no.

Speaker B: Because I think like because the whole health, wellness, biohacking, longevity industry is booming so I don't know if there's something there.

Speaker A: Yeah. I think sleep's an area I'm personally interested in. I think there's some innovation there.

Speaker B: If you can create something that will knock me out.

Speaker A: That's not a. Yeah. Not a Benzo. Yeah.

Speaker B: Like that's uh. Because my biggest thing is I have a quite an active brain before I go to bed. So I'm just lying there for an hour just thinking about shit. But I'm like, well I should be sleeping right now. I would love to just. Yeah, I'm sure there's some things out

Speaker A: there but, but I haven't found a product that's like non pharmaceutical that is really effective. Um, so that's, that's a personal thing for me too. I'm the same way. Like anything about like health, it's like, it's actually like sleep's the most important. Then I'd argue exercise, then nutrition, then nutrition.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And even nutrition. Nutrition's more about not fucking up than it is like dialing. Perfect.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Like not fucking up is like not overeating. Getting your macros right.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: And avoiding toxins, like pretty simple. Um, but if you don't have your sleep right, nothing else matters.

Speaker B: It's very, it's very, very hard to lose fat or continue to lose fat if you're sleep deprived and the training is horrible. Building muscles, pain in the.

Speaker A: And all these sort of knock on consequences of bad behavior and then, and then on um, exercise. Exercise is like the best pill. Um, so, so sleep is to me is I think the most interesting. Um, I haven't spent time on it but I think that's, I think there's a lot of demand. I think a lot of people suffer with it.

Speaker B: So um, exciting times ahead. Where do you generally think the um, the protein market or the protein bar market will be in like five, ten years, you see. Think it'd be fairly similar. I can't really imagine any newcomers getting on the scene unless they're doing something very different or they have a strong mark.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: So I think, because even I, I've thought about if I was going to do it how would I do it? I thought the, like the, the only thing that would potentially interest me are ah, like these jerky bars.

Speaker A: Like meat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but then you run into the problem of price.

Speaker B: There's, there's the price, the you, the sourcing, the fact that 90% of the people are going to say this tastes like crap. There was, I think there was um, one company, Maui Newey Medicine.

Speaker A: Their product's so good.

Speaker B: So they do the organ, uh, organ meat pills which are great. And then they have the, the protein sticks. This is like 10 grams of protein or something. So it's, it's a good little hit of protein but you just know it's like it's great quality.

Speaker A: Oh yeah, that's, that's a great company. Great product.

Speaker B: Yeah, but they can't mask m. Yeah,

Speaker A: they can't mask y' all. And like people. It's pretty expensive.

Speaker B: I can't get it in Dubai unless I, I had to like speak to the team and I was like, can you?

Speaker A: Yeah, I think they sell out like every.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. They have a subscription thing where you, you sign up and then there's the monthly subscription. You get your supply.

Speaker A: Yeah. But I think the protein bar market will continue to grow. But if you ask people like why don't you eat protein bars? There's like protein bar eaters and they're not like it's interesting. And the main reason is taste.

Speaker B: Mhm.

Speaker A: So I think the way to innovate and this is why you see like bare bells and built puff bar doing so well is like they have a great, it's a great sensory experience. M. So I think in the next five years the way to break into the category would be some really novel um, taste or texture. Mhm. With um, good nutrition, which is the hard part.

Speaker B: But now we've got AI to help with the cooking up of it.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that would be interesting if they can formulate.

Speaker B: Nice man 1 um, piece of advice for entrepreneurs who are uh, thinking about starting up something maybe in the supplement or food industry.

Speaker A: Um, there's a lot. I'll give two. Um, I think, I think the most important thing for not entrepreneur is to free yourself of your pride. Um, I think a lot of people are really excitable and it's easy to get passionate and if you just get really excited and you can kind of blind you in the realities and so you really want to be objective about your product and also be the biggest critic. Like hope, hope and wishful thinking don't help. Um, so Be really anchored in the realities of your offering, um, and hypercritical of your product. Um, so that'd be one, then two in food and beverage. Like, Um, I think all the risk is in the manufacturing part of it and supply. So just make sure you have really great manufacturing partners and suppliers. Like those relationships are really critical. Don't uh, underestimate that like, and do the work.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's quite. It's cool that you've done this without needing to have such a big social media presence or be the face of it. I'd argue that's probably even better.

Speaker A: Well, I don't know how. I don't think like building a media company and that's a full time job.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: So. And then running a food company is a full time job. Uh, so I don't know how you can do both. I think it's really, really hard because if you're going to do the media thing and that's really important for demand and awareness, you're just not going to spend the time on the product. So I think the idea will be like, I think what um, prime did where it's like just partner with an operator to do that part and then let Logan and KSI do their thing and just do a partnership like that. I think that's the only way because like they're two separate businesses. And like I think one of the things like when you're in the media business, you underestimate how hard it is to build the product and operate. And when you're in the product business, you totally underestimate the media business. Like it's always the way.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Um, like I underestimated media. I'm like, oh, it's all day. You have to like look at the edits. You have to like. And you have to be good at it. M. You have to. It's not easy.

Speaker B: Yes.

Speaker A: It's a talent.

Speaker B: You should see the first few videos I put out like 10 years ago.

Speaker A: Yeah. It's probably terrible. Yeah. And the same thing with product. Like my first product sucked. Like it. But you just gotta. It's so. Anything takes excellence and so you have to spend like the world's so competitive. So don't underestimate what you don't know.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: Who's your favorite entrepreneur?

Speaker A: I mean, obviously it's just, it's like Elon, it's like.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: He's like, he's like Edison, Einstein and like Rockefeller in one.

Speaker B: Yeah.

Speaker A: So I don't. I always. I, I grew up in Chicago during Michael Jordan's time and I took it for granted, like, oh, we're just winning another championship. And I didn't realize I was among m. Great. Like. And I think it's the same thing with Elon. It's like we're like among a living legend. Like, in a thousand years, I think history will, like, in the. They're like, oh, he will be in history. Like, no one else will. Um, so. So he's just an, like, it's just a crazy outlier. Um, but, uh, I admire a lot of different entrepreneurs. Um.

Speaker B: Yeah, I think Elon gets. He gets way too much stick and hate for, like, what he's actually doing. I mean, I think he seems to be the only person that's actually trying to help humanity. And I mean, for me, like, I'm really interested in space and like, exploring.

Speaker A: Yeah.

Speaker B: The solar system.

Speaker A: Yeah, it's like an. It's. It's unimagined.

Speaker B: Like, nobody else is really.

Speaker A: His achievements are. There's nothing like SpaceX. I mean, there's. Yeah, it's the N of one. I mean, you landed, like, it's crazy. It's. Yeah. So he's number one. But then, um. I don't know. That's really it, actually. I mean, to be honest, it's an obvious answer, but he's the goat.

Speaker B: Good stuff. We'll wrap it up there. Where can people find you on socials, Peter?

Speaker A: Uh, Rahal. Uh, at Twitter or X? And, um, make sure to check out

Speaker B: daily YouTube videos that you're uploading.

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I'll be. Yeah, I'm getting the media so bad at it probably.

Speaker B: No, good stuff, man. I appreciate that. It's fascinating. Um, thanks. I enjoyed that. Uh, a lot of stuff I didn't realize that goes into building a supplement company in a protein bar. And I think, I mean, it's exciting to see where this is going to go. And I need to try the ice cream.

Speaker A: I.

Speaker B: So, uh, I will.

Speaker A: I'll. I'll arrange it, we'll ship it, we'll get you some.

Speaker B: Yeah, it's good. Nice.

Speaker A: Thanks, man.

Speaker B: Thank you.