How Sarwa’s Options Trading and Product Diversity Has Helped Them Scale Quickly #029

Speaker A: Foreign.

Speaker B: Thank you for joining the fintech underground. We have Mark who is a co founder CEO of Sarwa which is the leading UAE investing, trading, crypto, a bunch of the things fintech app. Uh, welcome Mark.

Speaker C: Thanks Yoshi. Good to do this. Excited for this chat?

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely, definitely. Like um, you know we've been discussing a lot over the uh, you know, years. I just wanted to firstly start with how your journey has been starting from the uh, you know, one investment product and then you expanded so much already and how successful you are. What was the key that drove you to be able to come here after the uh, uh, first product launch?

Speaker C: Yeah, so we're seven years in so it's nice, it's a good time to reflect on the journey. As you said we started basically rooted in long term investing. Think retirement planning, ETFs, diversified portfolios and I think it was a nice place to start because you have to build trust, a trusted brand, a great service, hire amazing people so that we can uh, build a new fintech platform and have people trust us with their money and also introduce a stable long term way of doing things with time. We learned though that people want more control and want to do their own investment and trading as well. They don't just want to give all that fun away to someone to manage it for them. So we started getting so much inbound in terms of requests on um, can I do this with my portfolio? Oh, I'd like to change that. And instead of going down the road of customizing too much the platform we're like you know what, let's give power to the people where they can buy and sell their own uh, and make their own decisions. And it turned out to be one of the best decisions we've made as today the assets on our self directed trading platform called Sarwa Trade actually exceeded our uh, wealth management assets which showed although it's a much, much more recent product so it shows you that there's a big trend where people feel much more comfortable and confident in doing their own decision making when it comes to investments and trading.

Speaker B: That's amazing to hear. And then we always talk about which countries trading apps doing well or not. Obviously we talk about a lot about obviously Robinhood and then we also talk about wealthsimple in Canada. Both of them have a very different journey but they're very successful in their own way. So like you know, these are like you know the app and the business that you kind of benchmark, uh, so that like you're learning a lot from, for you to make decisions, definitely.

Speaker C: I think these are two really strong platforms in Canada and the U.S. it was actually based on these platforms that when we started we were trying to get our friends and family to open some accounts with them, but they would only serve Canadians and Americans. And we realized that's quite a big gap for people in the UAE and the Middle east that cannot uh, open these accounts and are left having to revert to not investing or saving or having to work with an offshore platform that's not really designed for someone that lives in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, et cetera. So the disadvantages of that is that they would have to incur banking fees, struggle to open an account, maintaining the account is challenging. The type of service, the type of fees. Everything is not localized. So these great platforms are nice and it's nice to also Exchange Notes. The word's gotten like a lot smaller. There's more and more people coming to Abu Dhabi from these firms where before we had to like beg for a call from the UAE just to exchange notes. I think now there's a healthy kind of a, uh, lot of events, a lot of these players we have met and have a direct relationship to exchange Notes on what's worked, what hasn't worked.

Speaker B: Right.

Speaker C: But the common, the common theme across all these investment platforms is clearly that once you're trusted with one vertical, such as self directed investing or passive investing, customers really want uh, to also use the same platform for other needs. So when we've launched, we uh, launched sort of invest, trade, crypto, save, we've added commodities through ETFs as well this year for gold and precious metals. There's a lot also more that we're going to be rolling out together. And the more we add and the more people kind of praise that um, innovation, the downside I think to that could be maybe market expansion when you're expanding your product suite so much. But that's something I've come to live with where I'd uh, still prioritize a bigger product suite over being maybe spread too thin across uh, too many markets.

Speaker B: And then talking about the product, um, expansion. You recently launched Options Trading.

Speaker C: Yes.

Speaker B: And I think that's a, ah, pretty big complex product. How are you feeling about that?

Speaker C: I love this product actually. Um, here I have this book that happened to be right on my desk that I'll uh, this is a book called Antifragile by a Lebanese American, uh, author called Nassim Talib who's big on options trading. So I'm uh, very excited about this one. I Think it speaks to. There's a lot of renowned investors that have made a lot of money through options trading in a short amount of time by making some bold bets. And I think since we started, when we first started SorWho we had to educate people a lot on ETF's passive investing value. Now if we do the same thing, they're like okay, we've heard it all before. Can you talk about the next thing? So people are more sophisticated, more aware of more risk aware and to uh, protect risk but also to take on more risk if they've Learned if they for example Covid or 2022 and some downturn. So, so uh, that's what makes me excited about options. It gives you a lot of. Well, one, it reflects the investment sophistication, uh, that's growing and two, it's a very powerful risk mitigation tool that people are starting to learn about. It's complex, it requires a bigger understanding, but one that I think shows a lot of promise for customers and also for our business as we've seen a lot of. If we take Robinar as an example where it makes up, you know, a strong share of their uh, of their top line. So I think it's, it's a very good tool and I think it's one of the future tools of investing that we're going to see really take off.

Speaker B: I firstly, I'm so like ashamed about this, but I didn't know Taleb is a uh, Lebanese American.

Speaker C: Yeah. Oh really?

Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker C: He speaks a lot about, in his books. Etc. He's from a uh, town called Amur and been geeking out a lot about his books. Glad that you, you're also aware of him.

Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Because like, you know, I've read most of his books. Like you know I've been a big fan because uh, you know I went through that Lehman crash.

Speaker C: Okay, exactly.

Speaker B: You know, beefy like you know his, his books. Like you know the um, firstly I got introduced. This book is like, you know I was really reflecting upon what happened at Lehman, right. Like kind of thinking about how did

Speaker C: we, how did the world miss this? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker B: And then I was in the uh, you know, completely in the midst of it. Like I was doing the securitization Visa primes and I was trading synthetic asset backed securities and CMPs and everything. I was you know, there and then I just didn't see the whole big picture. And his books were just explaining like you know, unbundling, um, like, you know, the thing that I was in it, it's just a part of the long cycles. It's uh, you know, you can kind of logicalize what happened. And I was like so shocked to read that book and I just like, you know, kept on reading books and you know, about like his writing. I was just like so many bookmarks, like literal bookmarks on the paper, on the books, like in the Black Swan and like you know, the uh, bunch of others. So that's amazing. That's a big finding for me during this call today.

Speaker C: Oh no, that's good. I'm glad you mentioned that as well because you know, Black Swan is something very, something we're actually working on as well to think how can we help our clients, whether it's people that are investing or trading, to hedge against these risks. And although there's a lot of narratives around um, is it bitcoin, is it gold, is it bonds? I think each one has a shortfall and has failed investors in the past. Bonds have been uh, quite terrible in the last few years as it. While they're meant to protect portfolios, when options actually have, have uh, if you know and you know what you're doing, of course it's tougher but it's a, ah, it's a direct contract where the payoff is there and you don't have to base it out of a narrative. Bitcoin is a good example. It has a very strong, it still does narrative around hedging but you know, we, every time stocks have tanked, it's gone down with it at least uh, more recently. So. Yeah, so that's why I think options presents something more tangible, more assured. It's more mathematical as well that if you spend enough time uh, learning it and invest that initial time, you end up having more tools so that you are more immune to these uh, market shocks.

Speaker B: Yeah, I really truly agree with that because looking at how like a lot of those successful hedge fund manager, including Taleb, and then of course like looking at citadel, you know, 10 greater into the Bridgewater, Ray Dalio, they all like grew up trading options, making money through options, not really trading the actual underlying stocks.

Speaker C: Right.

Speaker B: If they really want to become big, obviously it's not easy at all. But as you say, there's uh, so much inefficiencies and then undiscovered something that not uh, only professionals can figure out. And I think that is a reason why I feel like there are some of those emerging hedge fund managers and smart people can actually take advantage of it to become like really big. And it's amazing. Like you know how, you know you are able to add the option of trading so quickly. Like you know, from the journey of like, you know, firstly you launched your, you uh, know shut right invest because like looking at other companies like even like Wealth Simple Robinhood, like you know that product velocity that you are scoring is extremely fast. So like I'm just really amazed how you've been doing that.

Speaker C: Yeah, I think kudos to the team and I think the partnership with Alpaka as well. People are always surprised by how lean we are. And I think a big part of it is it's not Sarwa as a standalone team. It's powered by uh, amazing partners like Alpaka that are also. We're all sprinting together and it creates that velocity rather than, you know, bringing everything in house. But then you optimize maybe your costs but you delay the launch of certain things. So we really like that partnership. We also realize, I think with the regulator that there's a very open dialogue. So there's a very good collaboration between customers voice. They want something. We see a trend maybe in, in the west we talk to you about it or you tell us, hey, this is coming. We talked to the adgm, uh, the Abu Dhabi FSR regulator about it and they were, they were on board. They actually we recently synced with them on how people that are buying options are performing and the performance is very strong where the majority are uh, making money and the earnings are like, I think something like five times more than the losses. So in terms of also looking at those that are using it and uh, the accounts that are using options, how are they performing also matters. And that gives us comfort and the regulator more comfort. That this is a product that is building and protecting well despite its risk. And as long as people know the risks involved and how to use it and it's the suitability, then that's good.

Speaker B: Yeah, definitely, definitely. Of course, like it's not for everyone. That's why like we all together kind of making sure that this is only for the hands of the people who actually understand it well.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: So.

Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think it'll pick up especially if we factor in kind of the world we live in in terms of uh, content. I'm always surprised, but I didn't expect so many financial influencers and bloggers and know on YouTube and TikTok and X, uh, or Twitter, there are just doing so much financial content where people are actually getting up to speed. And that's not even discounting maybe AI platforms that can also help people with their strategies. So I think what seemed like, uh, a no way is this going to pick up, it's so complex, is now starting to look more and more accessible.

Speaker B: Yeah. And I think like, in what's so funny about it is that like looking at the stats of the trading volume, for example, into the US stock market, there's only about like, you know, 15% of the whole trading volume is from retail investors. But like, if you look at the options trading side, of course there's a lot of like, you know, pickup in terms of the percentage, but now it's around like more than 40%. So you know, of course like it increased from like, you know, 30 to 40% during the pandemic and it was like only 20%, like uh, early, like, you know, like 2010s. So it's pretty interesting to see that there's like a lot of retail participation in the options of trading. But at the same time, what's so weird has been there's not much of the availability outside of the United States for the retail investors in terms of the options trading. And that was really the like, you know, I think like, pretty missed up part or like, you know, the gap that like you're really closing in. And I think like, you know, it's amazing that how you are delivering this really quickly because I think it's all about accessibility, right, like, and then like, in terms of how to be used, it comes after that because if there is no accessibility, you even cannot like, discuss those kind of things at all. So like, it's amazing how you've been like, you know, being able to deliver that and then, you know, providing the content and like, you know, basically doing the teachings and of course like making sure that you're communicating well with the regulators and you know, getting the support from them.

Speaker C: Yeah, I completely agree and I think definitely Covid was something unlocked in our businesses and in investing. During COVID I think it just went viral to invest, whether it's the savings rate that was maybe more available, the content again, and the word of mouth around what's possible, the kind of wealth, uh, that you can generate with investing. And I think people are relying less on their incomes as well, are understanding that it's not the only and best way to build wealth and now that it's more accessible. I remember actually during COVID there was a documentary on the 400 wealthiest people and they showed how more than 80, something around more than 80 or 90% of how their wealth was created wasn't through Their income. It was through asset ownership. And ah, that resonated a lot with me to understand why is. Why is investing pick up so much in retail. And I think it's because people are looking okay, well how are the wealthiest people, how have they generated their wealth? And if that's through asset ownership, then I will invest the time to learn about it so that I'm not just depending on my, my income to, to do that.

Speaker B: Right. And I think like, you know, you really use the word really well. Like you know, you're also using the word of the asset ownership like not only about like the word of investing.

Speaker A: Right.

Speaker B: Because like it's really about. You are allowing the people to own the assets. Not necessarily like the people don't have to think about. Okay, this is investing. Yeah, like investing sounds like it's a big word, but it's really about you are allowing people to have accessibility. Allowing the people to own something. And that itself is actually has not been easy at all. Like, especially outside of like North America. Like don't you think it's crazy? Like.

Speaker C: No, I get you. I was even, I was just reflecting recently how we take it for granted that it's uh, you know, in a few clicks you can own a piece of, you know, the, the best American businesses and the largest American businesses. And it's, it's no joke. Especially when the word investing can be like overused sometimes. Where I'm investing in my. Sometimes a purchase and like a gift to yourself can be called an invitation. But ultimately no, this is, this is very tangible. You're owning a piece of, of some of the or the largest public companies out there that are accessible to you. So it's a mission that really excites us to democratize it and to bring that access. Some is more accessible than others. I think now we're starting to see when it comes to equities options, anything public, there's a bit more pull. I think the challenge still is to overcome in terms of private markets and all that. It's a kind of a buzzing Trend in the U.S. but um, I think that's going to be a bit slower.

Speaker B: Yeah. So I think like going into those private markets or like other things. Yeah. Like it's been like amazing partnership and then of course like you've been like super good friends for me and then like you know, trying to make sure that the friendship, you know, allows us to grow together to kind of mentor each other. And you know, I get mentored by you all the time, but I think like exactly the same for us, like you know we play as a really just a platform and the infrastructure. So like you know, our job is to continue to build and create more optionality of the asset classes basically like other people can own something and that something has to be more and more and more and more types. It's not only about US stocks or anything. Like there's a fixed income, there's a bonds, like I'll just say there's a, you know, private markets and there's like, you know, the stocks outside, you know, listed outside of the United States fate as well. And of course like you know there are you know, presidential elections affecting a lot of excitement around the US capital markets in general. But it's always cyclical. So you know, some attention goes to Middle east, some attention sometimes goes to China, some attention goes to Asia, latam Europe. So yeah, like I think like you know, it's exciting that you know we can continue to push more asset classes accessible for the people to own. So yeah, like I think like, you know I'm personally very excited about you know, working on the fixed income coming up in 2025 and then also the you know, global stock not only for the US stocks only because I think that's also very important in terms of the accessibility wise and then having uh, the people to able to own the uh, something. So I'm personally very excited about that too.

Speaker C: Yeah. Ah, same here. We have recently uh, like Talabat, which is a food delivery app that's ipoing and that generated quite a lot of buzz. So I think a lot of the team, our clients are excited about adding global stocks to now that you know, the local market has been heating up and growing, there's more demand. I think launching that too soon could have been a mistake because it's been very difficult to compete or beat the s and P500 in the US market. And it might be the case, who knows? Uh, we can't predict the future but any diversified portfolio will have a huge chunk of it in the U.S. and the majority in the U.S. so I think now that that's made its way to a lot of our clients portfolios and assets, we can start to look elsewhere and start to add more additional exposure beyond just the US stock, especially on the trade side. And when we say US also, sometimes what people forget is that through the New York Stock Exchange you can have access to funds that are diversified as well. So it's not like they make it hard for you to leave the US Exchange as well. But there are still opportunities elsewhere such as UAE stocks that will become very interesting.

Speaker B: Yeah, how do you see that trend? Because of course you have been on the ground and then of course you're traveling around in the regions including Europe and the gcc. You know, there's definitely hypes and then energy in the TCC region in general. At the same time there's uh, like I just said, US capital markets continue to stay very strong. Like you know, how do you see that in the future will play out in for example 10 years later about like, you know how the interests of the like retail investors and the money where they go about amongst like in all those places that you know we are seeing right now.

Speaker C: Yeah, no, it's a great question. I think you know there are some hypes that sometimes you like to see more than once. For example, Bitcoin is something that the first time it we, we were around 2017 I think there was a uh, one of the 20, uh, 17, early 2018, something like that where it was going up and I remember that was. We started questioning should we add it and we realized the regulation wasn't quite there. We wanted to observe it a bit more and then we added it after that which was a very good decision because then the regulation now has really improved around it. Other hypes like NFTs was like from the beginning we're like you know what, this is taking it too far. And we had very, very like zero appetite to incorporate that. And I think as a North Star, one that we're using more recently is we look at the UBS or um, Goldman Sachs report around what does a billionaire's portfolio look like? And you'll see okay, well public market is still huge. Okay, that's great. So we've, that's a uh, that's an area we've covered quite well. And then you'll have fixed income is going to be I think roughly 10%. And then you start to see alternatives is actually a big chunk of. And then commodities is in there. So looking at kind of what's made its way to someone that has all of the access. So remove your point, remove access as a barrier and observe what does that look like? I think we can expect to see you know, $1 billion portfolio, uh, look quite similarly to maybe uh, a $10,000 portfolio once you know a lot of the regulatory and tech work has been done to make things accessible with the right guardrail. So I think that's a nice vision. When I hear about you know, you mentioned Europe platforms that are Democratizing private markets. They also echo that they want to make. They're pushing for retail democratization as well. And I think we'll find the right balance where maybe in certain minimums, maybe it's certain amounts and thresholds. But I do feel like even when we talk to blackrock, we did a webinar with them when they came out with their Bitcoin ETFs and you could kind of see that their vision as well is to make an ETF almost out of everything, uh, worth owning. So that reality I think is getting closer and it's quite exciting because you have more control, more personalization and more accessibility into great asset classes. Mhm.

Speaker B: I think that's interesting, right, because you do have this vision of connecting a bunch of the asset classes. Even looking at ah, how the Goldman and uh, UBS private wealth clients portfolio would look like in the $1 billion portfolio. And then you know, yes, like it includes so much of the stuff but yet like you know, you are making it from very like you know, the typical stuff first. Yeah, and I think that's actually really smart because I was, I was thinking about this a lot as well. Like when I was at Lehman, I was uh, at the most illiquid asset classes that can never be in the fixed income which is like you know, asset backed securities to insurance linked securities, catastrophe bonds, like it's not really treated like you know, the equities. And then I was thinking about yes, but this is super, super profitable business as a like seller and of course like as uh, you know, buyers of the investors. Like it's an extremely interesting asset class for the diversification. But then the reason why we were able to get trust to be able to talk with the investors, uh, even though our team were making a lot of uh, profitability and interesting stuff that we are making that was actually built on the foundational relationships that has been established through very typical stuff which is the US stock investing, accessibility to the fixed income, selling treasury bonds, money market funds and then other teams are taking care of that. And because of that relationships, we were able to talk to those investors, you know, after gaining the trust and then talk about this more complex stuff about this is how it works. This is like you know, diversification purpose and they can be a part of the you know, whole portfolio logic. So I think like, you know, basically like, you know how you are thinking about that, is that right? Like you do have like a super strong long term vision but you're really doing it one by one and then you are like Achieving that one by one. So kudos to that. And I think like, I feel like the options is also that too. Right. Like, you can't just come up with the trading app that just offers options trading. That's it, you know.

Speaker C: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Whether it's in your career or where we are now, it's just evolving with the customers as they are evolving and growing their wealth to present a sequence of products that fit where they are in their lifetime. And also in where we are as a market. Imagine offering or talking about savings and money market fund when the rates were not interesting. So it's also the sequencing in the macro environment matters and that's why that becomes actually the challenge. Ensuring that you invest in the right product at the right time and kind of, you need to be almost ahead, actually. And I think options comes at a very good time. Where we've had a very strong two years. You're talking roughly. I think I was looking at it from the bottom. It was more than 60%, uh, something like that in the last two years. So that's uh, quite a strong performance. And while people are celebrating a lot of milestones and we're seeing more posts like, uh, milestone, it's still. There's a bit of nervousness around. Okay, well it's not just risk on what are some of those tools that are there to help me in case things go down and recover. So. But it's challenging, definitely. I think the challenge and the key thing is to also not make the platform complex and to over kind of go back to the same starting point that we wanted to, to change, which is making investing easy. Our initial tagline wasn't making investing easy. Now it's make money work. But it's the same principle where it needs to be simple as our core value prop. So balancing choice and simplicity I think is going to be, uh, critical. And why we, we actually favored Alpaca, uh, over so many brokers because we saw the DNA and the soul of the company even from the name. And the brand is very much making it simple rather than like these very complex UI charts that where you're talking down to a customer or to your clients.

Speaker B: Yeah, I appreciate that. Thank you very much for like all the great, um, inputs and teachings. Um, I think like one last thing that I want to close it off because this by the way, podcast is called Fintech Underground. The reason why is that I always ask this one question about what is something that people have not noticed yet that you feel this is a hidden gem that you know I mean I

Speaker C: think we revealed it in uh, in this interview. I, I, I, yeah, I think the thinking from Nassim Taleb's books and his approach on risk should not be so niche. It should be, I would reverse it to be it should make its way to almost every portfolio or at least it's something that will profoundly change how you look at investing in risk and options. And I think that's something that uh, hopefully we're going to make an impact on and bring more awareness to it. But I was quite shocked when the more I was digging into the literature and uh, how powerful uh the wealth protection tools that Fermi advises as well is working on is available. So I, I guess maybe, maybe it's all, there's a, there's an additional lens from him being Lebanese that makes me more attached. But I think um, I think as a thought leader and as a, to like as a gem, I think there's a lot of wisdom that would really uh, improve the lives of people and their, their wealth by going through it and practicing it.

Speaker B: And the weird part is that this cycle is getting shorter and shorter and shorter. Like you know it's the Black swans because it was like in once in the uh, I don't know like 50 years or 70 years. It's like kind of Ray Dalio it's long term debt cycle thing. Right. But that thing is getting shorter and shorter. Looking at uh, like you know, crypto, you know, bust and then hype and everything and then pandemic capital markets going up like in town and up and down and up and down. So I think like because of that reason like you know we will see like more frequency of like you know those you know, weird situation where we should have protection like aer say. Right? Yeah.

Speaker C: You know ever since I started investing and started the business I've been kind of tuning out a lot of uh, people that, that are calling for the next crash and are bearish. Like I generally dislike being around or seeing that kind of content because yeah generally I'm an optimist and um, and I believe in investing in the long term wealth creation it provides. And the issue I had I guess with beyond ah at the same time you don't want to be naive, you want to take there's some credible people that are including rao that are sometimes kind of bearish and alarmist. So I feel like why I'm excited about kind of the Black Swan protection and option through options and these tools is that it gives you a tool to kind of, to not Having to listen to and not being, not having to worry about. If there is a crash, so be it. But I think it provides a better answer than what passive investing has done so far, which is, well, look at this chart. In the last 100 years, it's recovered, like, yeah, great. But I don't want to wait a few years. What if I don't want to wait a few years for things to recover? And what if there is a way to avoid that pain? So I think it's pretty crazy to realize that if you ask any wealth manager of any portfolio size, what happens if my portfolio goes down, um, or there's a big black swan, their answer is going to be, well, look at the historical performance. It's rebounded. And I think in some shape or form they'll use kind of more fancier graphs and metrics, but ultimately it's weighted out. Uh, and I think it's. It shouldn't be an acceptable answer. It should be, wait a minute, if there is a tool, why don't I have it? And what's blocking that? And I think it's the commercialization piece that you mentioned where it's like, beyond the U.S. yeah, this shouldn't be so niche.

Speaker B: Yeah, agreed, agreed. And then like, you know, just last one question, like, because like we've been talking about, you know, Nicholas Talib. What is the one book that you want the, uh, listeners to read so that like, you know, they understand what you're really talking about, about like, you know, this wealth protection options. And then like kind of got. Get more insights, like fundamental insights of like, you know, why this is important. If you are to recommend one book

Speaker C: by him, I think if I can have two depending on the audience. I think for, uh, more novice intermediate investors, I would recommend, uh, Anti Fragile because it touches upon finance, but also beyond that, it applies it to medicine, to working out to many other aspects that are quite interesting. So it's very holistic. The title is the answer itself because it's not just about getting through some of these world events, whether it's a war or whatever it is. It's about benefiting and coming out stronger from that volatility and that chaos. So I think that's a very nice one. And for the more, uh, technical people, there's a book by, uh, Mark Spitznagel, uh, called Safe Haven, that goes more into the weeds around how has each asset class performed when it comes to protecting your wealth and growing your wealth. And it's not a prescriptive around do this. That's kind of. I think the main thing I appreciate about these books is that they're not salesy. They're not. In fact, you're almost left, uh, kind of wanting more, uh, guidance that you can get elsewhere and that's more on the commercial side of things. But you'll benefit just from more risk awareness, uh, by doing them. Mhm.

Speaker B: Amazing. Definitely. Like this is amazing. Two, uh, books I recommend. Um, you know, I'll let my alpaca team members to make sure to check them out as well.

Speaker C: Yeah, they're awesome. They're good reads.

Speaker B: Yeah, but it's amazing man. But dude, like, thank you very much for your time and then you know, taking your time uh, to like really explain your wisdoms and then like your journey, you know. Again, Mark, thank you very much for your time for this.

Speaker C: Thanks Yoshi. Really enjoyed this conversation.

Speaker A: To our Alpaca listeners. Check out Alpaca for more information about stock options and crypto trading. And always remember to do research before investing. Investments involve risk and past performance does not guarantee future results. There is no guarantee that any investment strategy will achieve its objectives. There is always the potential of losing money when you invest in securities or other financial products. Investors should consider their investment objectives and risks carefully before investing. Securities brokerage services are provided by Alpaca securities, llc. Alpaca securities member Finracipic, a wholly owned subsidiary of Alpaca DB Inc. Technology and services are offered by Alpaca DB Inc. This is not an offer, solicitation of an offer or advice to buy or sell securities or open a brokerage account in any jurisdiction where Alpaca securities are not registered or licensed as applicable. The content of this piece is for general informational purposes only. All examples are for illustrative purposes only. For more information, please see our website.