1077. Insights: What does it take to build the bank of the future? With Engine by Starling

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Speaker C: Hello and welcome to FinTech Insider Insights. I'm Ross Gallagher, head of consulting at 11 FS. Today we're joined by two leaders from Engine by Starling, the banking technology business born out of Starling Bank's own journey to becoming one of the UK's most successful digital banks. Joining us are Sam Everington, CEO, uh, of Engine by Starling and Jodi Bhagat, President, uh, of North America at Enjin by Starling. Now, Enjin has taken the technology that powered Starling's rise and transformed it into a standalone proposition. Helping banks around the world modernize their infrastructure, launch products faster and, uh, navigate an increasingly complex technology landscape. As banks grapple with legacy systems, AI ambitions, evolving customer expectations and growing competitive pressure, Engines sits at the heart of some of the industry's Most important technology decisions. Um, Sam, Jody, first of all, welcome to the show. It's a real pleasure to have you both. Um, how are you guys doing?

Speaker D: Yeah, good, thank you. It's great, great to be here today.

Speaker E: Thank you for having us, Ross.

Speaker C: Yeah, real pleasure. Thank you guys for coming on. Well look, it's a, um, it's, it's, it's great to have you both here to talk about the engine proposition. I think we sort of summed it up there pretty well in the intro, but playing I think sort of right at the intersection of a number of the sort of key trends that are impacting our industry at the moment. Sam, maybe it's worth rewinding a little bit. You know, Enjin started life as the technology that powered Starling bank itself. It'd be maybe good to get ah, a little bit of the origin story sort of. At what point did you realize that you built something that could become a standalone business maybe in its own right?

Speaker D: Yeah, it's a great question. We clearly built a successful business in Starling. I've been there for 10 years now, joined a 20 something person startup. Uh, and we could see in Starling the impact it was having on customers in the uk. The kind of two things we're very proud of sitting right at the top of the customer satisfaction tables and the economics of the bank ultimately operating that very efficiently despite that customer's light. And a lot of that came from the speed, the agility, the pace at which we could release products and capabilities to support customers and be responsive and adaptive to their needs. So there's a whole list of kind of industry firsts and things Starling's done and where we've moved the market forward and other banks have caught up. And that's uh, clearly something we're very proud of. And then Starling is born out of really assessing ourselves. Where did the strength lie is the business and the experience we have running these delightful digitally native, uh, kind of customer facing journeys, but also the operating process that sits behind a genuinely digital first bank, uh, and uniquely doing that profitably. We were one of the first digital banks anywhere to reach profitability. And inevitably that led to study tours, for want of a better word, excos and boards turning up from different banks in other markets with uh, their favorite consulting firms and questions to understand what Starlink had done differently and what had kept the same. Uh, it's in no doubt that most banks uh, are very profitable, they're very successful businesses in the markets they operate in, uh, how we got there and Some of those ended in can we co invest, can we form a JV to replicate what Starlink has done in our home market? And uh, across many conversations and Stanley wild strengths like Engine really came out of that. Okay, actually, what if we did that because we know how hard it is to scale the other side, the licenses, the brand, the trust, the uh, regulatory and credit risk experience. Expanding banks internationally has been tried many times and most retrenched from that. So take our product and our tech with established entities instead. Can we have impact on many more customers much, much faster than we could do on our own?

Speaker C: Excellent. Um, and Jodi, what, um, obviously, I mean, Sam mentioned that Starling has sort of grown to become one of the biggest and most successful banks here in the uk. Um, what sort of convinced you that there was that sort of global market opportunity for the technology that Sam mentioned beyond, um, Starling itself?

Speaker E: Yeah, thanks Ross. It's a fascinating time. By the way. First of all, acknowledgments to 11Fs for really moving the industry forward. We think that you play a really important role in this. In the banking industry, there's this notion called, uh, the banking productivity paradox. The banking industry invests heavily in technology and yet it's one of the few industries that has not enjoyed an increase in efficiency or productivity over the last decade. And frankly, I believe that's largely because the investments go into maintaining old legacy cores and frankly just getting systems to talk to one another. So, you know, in summary, the banking industry is really, really, it's held back by the legacy technology stack. And in an environment where the pace of change is so rapid, the industry should enjoy the benefits of really a modern technology platform. And Engine is unique in that we are an operating bank from Starling and also a modern technology platform. So at the risk of being, let's say, overly aspirational, we believe that a modern technology platform like Engine can really unleash the potential of banks and credit unions and their employees.

Speaker C: Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. Um, and thank you Jodi, for your, um, very kind words about um, 11Fs. Obviously very much, uh, reciprocated insofar as it relates, um, to Starling. I guess I couldn't agree with you more about the investments in technology. Not then necessarily sort of translating through in terms of the uplift, uh, in um, productivity. I mean, Sam, you mentioned, um, in your uh, your piece around the sort of how Engine came to be. Of course the technology is one layer, but I suppose it's only one layer. There's obviously there's the operational side of it and all of that sort of stuff. So um, how do you partner with some of those banks from that respect as well?

Speaker D: Yeah, it's fundamentally business transformation rather than technology transformation. If you genuinely want to become digital first rather than as a support cost saving channel, which is how most of them came about, you really have to rethink the, the organization top down. The kind of operator models, the way you handle and you support and deal with requests from your customers and the way you manage change as an organization. You can't sit still and tattoo the days of three year technology roadmaps and big investments and long term planned change are coming to an end. Uh, and so uh, a lot of it is sharing experience much more broadly than that. Yes, we know what the customer journeys can look like and we've tested and battle hardened those. Yes, we've got a good view on how operating processes could work in each market. But it's, it's also how do you manage the organization and people are looking for us to share that experience as well from engineering teams and release cycles and approvals and how you work within risk and compliance functions and regulators, uh, to do things differently because they're lessons we've learned the hard way over a long period of time and we're very happy to share that knowledge as part of this partnership too.

Speaker C: And um, yeah, I mean that's of course it's easy to sit here and look at all of the success that Starling has had both um, in terms of establishing itself, as we've said, as one of the most innovative and most successful banks here in the uk and obviously then um, with all of the success that you've had with Engine, but maybe worth double clicking Sam as well on uh, some of those challenges as you mentioned. I mean it's not easy making a transition from that being an internal platform through to being a technology provider serving other financial institutions. I guess you probably both of you guys have got some uh, scars on your back from uh, that as well.

Speaker D: Huh? I'm smiling. It's certainly not an easy journey. Banks are not an obvious parent company sort of technology business, uh, as well. Um, it's not what you'd expect I think uh, I get asked this question reasonably often by the banks we're talking to as well. And people assume it's localizing the product for different markets, removing specific behavior that you built for yourself, even dealing with the concept of having multiple customers. Actually those things are particularly hard or aren't new in that if you built the technology in the right way or modern practices and having multiple customers. Every bank has that finance want different things to operations, want different things to P and L owners. Um, I had a world of stakeholders when I was doing this job just for starling. The real challenge as a product company is clarifying the boundaries. Where do we stop? What is bank specific? When you're doing it in house, you have to get to the very end of the line. If you're producing a repeatable, consumable product, there's a boundary to be drawn clarifying that, documenting it, explaining the how and the why for everything so that it's consumable by externals who haven't grown up with that organization over the years is a real shift in how you think about it and how and how you work. And that's actually the hardest transition to make I think.

Speaker C: Yeah. Um, Jodi, what, you know, what do you, what do you uh, what do you think are some of the big hurdles, the big challenges that banks are really facing into when they're looking at sort of modernizing um, their current technology stacks, the way that they do things. What are you seeing when you're talking to uh, some of your partners?

Speaker E: Well the good news is that the industry's really embraced modernization, uh, as an important facet of uh, staying current and staying competitive. Clearly the landscape is evolving rapidly, really forcing banks to really level up their game and their capability as well. I think there's three factors that I would suggest may need greater attention. So in the past, let's say over the past decade, it was appropriate and maybe even uh, practical to focus on system specific modernization. That is that when a specific system or module became obsolete, then you'd modernize uh, that system. Let's call that kind of point solution modernization. That was very viable and probably appropriate for the time. Given the pace of change. We believe that speed is quite vital and so the speed of modernization also needs to accelerate. Uh, most mid tier banks have a efficiency ratio of around, let's say 60% or so. We um, think that needs to dramatically improve. So that's one factor that the speed of modernization is becoming more vital. I say the second with this point solution modernization approach where each system is enhancing capabilities but only with the intent of improving the capabilities of that system. We believe there's real value and utility in the synergy across the platform, across the tech stack. That's the advantage of course that engine has around being built from scratch and built really coherently and synergistically. So that's the second element, uh, that really should be factored in and the third which is probably the most important. Sometimes these exercises are largely delegated to the IT team, particularly if you're doing something significant like a core upgrade or any kind of system upgrade. We believe that if you're really going to embark on modernization, that is a management team led exercise, it is not about upgrading a system. It is about achieving a balanced scorecard of outcomes where the entire management team really has a vested interest and has ownership of outcomes, leveraging the technology, ownership of outcomes that will ladder up to the overall business case. So those are the, I'd say the three factors that um, perhaps need even greater emphasis in modernization programs moving forward.

Speaker C: That's really interesting. And Sam, I guess in your experience um, rolling this out with uh, banking partners, is it fair to assume that there's no sort of one size fits all when it comes to some of the things that Jodi just described?

Speaker D: Yeah, every bank is different in its needs and at its starting point as well. And so organizations react to their experience, their history, the challenges they faced. And we all as humans kind of over index on the response to that. And so some of the things you're dealing with are just the legacy of history and the trials and tribulations that organization has been through. And so part of this you need to understand their drivers, their fears, their areas of concern, the things that are going to be a real challenge, uh, and focus on addressing those first.

Speaker C: Yeah, um, I'm interested as well Jodi in um, perhaps some of the differences that you're seeing in uh, sort of leading engines expansion in the North American market. Do you feel that fundamentally some of the challenges that um, banks in North America are facing into are different to the UK or are they quite similar? Where, where are we at from that, from that perspective?

Speaker E: Well I like to say that you know, banking is a noble profession and it's a noble profession globally. But there are some very fascinating problems and challenges, I'll just say fascinating dynam that are at play in North America. And I'll specifically touch on the US banking and credit union system as well. So first of all it's a very diverse group. 9,000 plus banks and credit unions and new entrant challengers are a second factor, uh, that's really um, becoming much more germane to the US market. For instance, Chime now has over 9 million customers. Even though the business model is different, that's a very healthy um, uh, customer base to draw on. And you can imagine that the attachment Rate will uh, certainly go up and the revenue per customer will certainly grow up. And the third factor is really we were likely in the midst of likely the most intensive M and a wave that the market has seen over the last several years. So those are three let's say prevailing factors uh, that are critical for the US market. And as I mentioned before with a, with an efficiency ratio of around, or cost to income ratio of around 60% for mid tier banks and credit unions, our belief is that you really have a uh, three year window to significantly improve your efficiency ratio, let's say by five points, to have a more distinctive customer experience that you can offer because the moats around the traditional branch based model are starting to evaporate. And thirdly, focusing on a segment that you can really overserve and win. And I think that's the right kind of um, target to shoot for because it creates a greater aspiration, it creates a greater need to be able to move at speed with greater distinctiveness and really thinking about how you are going to overserve and win your customer segment. And that's what the technology platform needs to enable. And that's why we're so excited about bringing a platform with really frankly focused on progressive banks and credit unions and progressive leadership teams, but ones that really want to lead in the future because we will certainly see greater separation between leaders and laggards in terms of performance moving forward.

Speaker D: Yeah, I love that.

Speaker C: Um, and Jody, you know, when banks are looking at um, who the right technology partner could be, where do you think, what are they looking at in terms of what they're evaluating and where do you think, uh, what are some of the areas that Enjin can really stand out?

Speaker E: So one of the things we're particularly excited about is having a different economic model for a more efficient deposit acquisition engine. You know, deposit acquisition and creating a deposit customer franchise around deposits is vital for banks globally. And the notion that if you are going to operate for instance a digital LED expansion, that is a digital bank expansion, let's say across states or in different markets. The traditional notion is that you have to have a slick account opening and you have to pay up for deposits, you may have to be at the top of the rate tables, let's say at uh, 90th percentile plus around weighted average market pricing. And we believe there's a different model out there. In fact Starling exhibits this model and engine can really unlock this model as well, which we call an engine inspired digital LED deposit acquisition, uh, economic case. And it's built on this, let's call this flywheel effect where you have a distinctive proposition you put into the market. And clearly that's exhibited by Starling's distinctiveness, uh, of its proposition. It attracts a mix of deposits, including non interest bearing deposits, which allows you to have relatively low cost of funds. That in turn creates a higher deposit retention and uh, greater relationship primacy as well. So this deposit acquisition machine is really based on not just paying up, for instance high savings rates, but based on a, ah, more efficient deposit acquisition machine that results in a lower cost of funds which we think is attractive for um, all banks and particularly banks in the US that are uh, striving uh, to grow and may not have a chance to just grow inorganically. So this is a very, what we think is attractive flywheel effect, uh, starting with a deposit acquisition, creating long interest bearing deposits which results in a low cost of funds and strong deposit retention. And this is what the technology stack should really enable banks to do, which is to deliver on a more compelling brand promise and offering for their customers.

Speaker C: All right, excellent. Well, that first segment seems to have absolutely flown. Um, 15 minutes is nothing at all really when you start to get into it. But look, please don't go anywhere because after the break we're going to be moving on to discussing what the future of banking technology looks like and of course whether AI could fundamentally change how banks are built and operated. Okay, welcome back to FinTech Insider Insights, uh, where I'm in conversation with Sam Everington, CEO of Engine by Starling and Jodi Begat, the President of North America, that is for Engine by Starling. Um, before the break we explored how banks are approaching technology transformation and the challenges of modernizing legacy infrastructure. Infrastructure. Uh, so in this second segment we're going to start looking ahead to what's next. Um, Sam, I guess it's hard to have any sort of conversation today around what's next or any sort of, uh, future focused conversation without talking about AI. Obviously it's dominating almost every conversation in financial services today. Um, maybe it'd be good just to get your perspective on how you see AI changing banking operations specifically over the uh, next five years or so.

Speaker D: Yeah, it's a fascinating space and you can't get through a single conversation with a board or an Xcode without this coming up. At some point everyone's wondering what's next and what they're missing. What do they need to be doing now to make sure uh, they're not left behind? A lot of the focus is still on the operating side the operation, the efficiency side and there's clearly a lot we can do there. Um but in some ways for many organizations that's just using AI to plug things humans are doing today which is to plug deficiencies in their systems and automation that was already possible without AI. It's just a lot of underinvestment has led to manual process swivel chairing uh as it's often called at a bank operating center. I think what really excites me about that is not just the operating side and servicing customers better, actually making banks more human. Ultimately um, if you take away the mundane process you can spend more time focusing on the individual needs of those customers but it's really using it to solve problems for customers. And uh, Starling and the journey it's been on here is a great example of it. Yes, they're doing things to make life more efficient and to improve the quality of interactions. The kind of automated call summary and call wrap that we have now saves something like 8,000 hours a month for our team uh, writing up call notes. But getting it into customers hands is where it gets really interesting with spending intelligence. First asking questions about the spending. It's more of a governance test case than anything to start getting tools in front of people. You could do the same with spending insights that existed but it's a good step uh and then it starts to get really interesting where you bring general knowledge of the world into it. So as we stepped through scam intelligence, taking a photo of something you intend to pay for uh, and the AI giving you an idea of fraud indicators, this deal looks too good to be true. You're being time pressured to do this. Have you thought about whether this WhatsApp message from your child uh really is from your child in the emotional moment that you're going through uh, right the way through to the Starling Assistant launch most recently recently the first properly agentic assistant in all customers hands in UK banking. So it's that part that really excites me actually using the technology to make banking more personal, more human, more fit for purpose around you rather than guiding you through a set of processes and journeys.

Speaker C: Yeah and I suppose delivering new or richer or more valuable customer outcomes or delivering maybe outcomes in sort of in different ways. Um, I'm curious though because obviously you know as is the case with um, with any hype cycle, I suppose there are lots of views of uh, sort of where this goes and, and, and, and, and the ultimate impact. Do you think there are areas that the industry might be overestimating or underestimating in terms of, in terms of its impact.

Speaker D: Yeah, there's some quick wins that will have the biggest impact. And that's the, the case with nearly all bits of technology. And then you reach the point of trading off the cost of the technology, the cost of the change versus, um, the benefits it can bring. And a lot of AI is just being used for old conditional logical if statements. They're probably quicker to process, uh, and probably quicker to develop and easier to audit and control and govern in a bank context. And the governance around this is really, really important, um, in certainty of outcomes. So it's not the silver bullet that should be applied to every situation. There's specific kinds of problems where general knowledge, the wider world is a really big contributor that no bank could ever program into it. There's many, many problems you're best off solving. Uh, the traditional software, software way.

Speaker C: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Um, Jodi, one of the things that stood out for me in the previous segment was the point that you were making around, um, the investment that a lot of banks have made into sort of different transformation programs, um, updating their technology stack and not necessarily seeing the productivity gains that you might expect. Does A.I. um, start to compound some of those issues?

Speaker E: Yeah, well I think banks are actually moving incredibly fast in some dimensions. For instance, they're moving incredibly fast at buying software and setting up teams focused on AI, um, setting up sandboxes, internal sandboxes for their employees to pilot solutions, developing demos. And so there's certainly a lot of value that can be gained from those kinds of efforts. The failure point though, Ross, is the historical one, the historical challenge. And it's just exacerbated in a world of AI. So let's take a set of agentic solutions or even a transformed agentic bank. First thing that an agentic platform needs is a full view of customer operational, transactional and financial data to identify when an agentic solution should be initiated. An agentic action should be initiated. Second thing it needs is rich API orchestration to be able to take action, just like a human would take action. That agent needs API orchestration at a granular level to be able to take action. And the last thing it needs is the ability to have full auditability and control at scale, which is really an event based architecture. So as thrilling as it is in terms of the unlock that AI presents, it does go back to the historical challenges that have plagued the industry, uh, for improvement initiatives over the years, which is some of the foundational capabilities, the 360 view of customer, the rich API orchestration in a real time event based architecture which really creates the modern, what we believe is the modern platform to excel in a world of AI.

Speaker C: Sounds really interesting, isn't it? Because you mentioned that um, AI isn't going to be this silver bullet and it's certainly not this uh, you know, you're not just going to wake up one day, plug it in and everything's going to be done. I mean I think uh, Jody started to bring uh, a lot of that to life and um, some of those foundational elements that are so important data, uh, I mean things like auditability, um, are non trivial and I think you know, the reality is that uh, there's a real, we have to go on a real journey here before we start to deliver some of the outcomes um, that you mentioned.

Speaker D: Yeah, completely. Jody's talked about the technology capabilities that need to be there that are going to necessitate a real investment in core capability to deliver that context to the models because they're only as good as the context is there. I think overlooked the other foundations you need in place is a very different way of governing change and outcomes. Core banking and core banking contracts are very prescriptive around the system doing exactly what the documentation said. AI doesn't have that and you want, I mean even PSD 2 and things mandates it. You want six months of deprecation notice for something to change. But the general availability models of Gemini and that kind of thing can be deprecated in weeks. If you can't process full deprecation, replacement change cycles in weeks and you can't govern uncertain outcomes in the context of all your regulatory obligations of consumer duty, vulnerable customers, that kind of thing. You won't be able to make use of these tools. So actually the hardest foundational challenge for most banks to solve is uh, the governance and getting the governance and the change management landscape to the point it needs to be. To our kind of earlier conversation, the one place I think AI is not going to live up to its potential is accelerating that tech modernization. There's this sudden perception in the world that they're going to take their COBOL mainframes, feed it into a bunch of AI and have a modern tech stack out the back. But 50 different disjointed systems being migrated by 50 agents is going to produce a lot of disjointed systems that now no human understands. Rather than a few humans close to retirement understanding. Uh, I'm not sure that's an improvement that's going to deliver much Value.

Speaker C: I completely agree. Um, and I think it's fair to say that you still need that really good foundational technology and technological design and that that is going to continue to be a differentiator as we move forward. Sort of maybe contrary to some of the opinions that actually if everybody has access to the same technology options then it's no longer a competitive advantage. Um, excellent. All right, well um, Jody, I think if we're. You mentioned previously uh, about challenger banks, um, what do you think some of the best institutions are doing, um, from a sort of technology perspective, Technology design, architecture design perspective that some of the bigger banks are still struggling to replicate.

Speaker E: Well, when you look at challenger banks and Fintechs um, over the last many years, what they've historically been strong at is recognizing frankly where traditional banks have cumbersome processes for customers or poor value exchange or lack of transparency around pricing and value and they've really attacked those elements and picked off those profit pools. And in many ways the challenger banks are now kind of rewriting the playbook. So we see that these challenger banks may be operating with an efficiency ratio of closer to, to 30% um, which creates of course an enormous amount of opportunity to invest in customers, acquisition, product differentiation, tailored journeys and experiences. So that's one key element of um, a differentiated platform. The second is we've talked about the value of the modern technology infrastructure being cloud native, not cloud ready, cloud native and the elements of the modern tech structure. And I think the third thing that uh, some of the challenger banks do well is it really imbued speed as part of the business model. And I don't mean speed, uh, that creates greater risk. Talking about speed in all elements of the business which is starting with recognizing how customers are using the solution and bringing that into, factoring that into their, their product development. Second is being able to push new features and capabilities, customer facing features or employee facing features that uh, address some of those issues. Third is recognizing issues in fraud or risk being able to identify them and ameliorate them rapidly as well. So this notion of operating at speed, in fact we even think that you should consider velocity metric. The CFO should be considering velocity metrics as part of uh, how they measure the efficacy of the institution as well and velocity metrics in terms of different aspects of the business model. Um, what this allows you to do is really have a platform that really drives this continuous agility, continuous innovation in an informed way. Not just putting out solutions and um, seeing if they work but uh, uh, in a more informed way where they can be tested and validated rapidly. We see some of our clients putting out new material customer features on a monthly cadence that's almost unheard of in traditional banking. But that's uh, what you can really do uh, with a modern tech stack. And that's probably the most exciting thing for the industry overall because this will get imbued in the rest of the industry as well. Either that or the, you know, the traditional institution that doesn't embrace this kind of thinking will likely not be viable given the, you know, the M and A wave, uh, that's happening. So I think it's actually something to be excited about. And for those that are really progressive, uh, in terms of leadership teams, it's a great aspiration to achieve.

Speaker C: I couldn't agree more. Um, and I guess Sam, I go back to your previous point. I think Jody did such a good job of bringing to life the role that um, a platform like Engine can play in that sort of moving fast and innovation. Um, but I suppose then it's important as well to pair that with the right sort of governance framework and culture and all of those things that sort of drive those through in an organization as well.

Speaker D: Yeah, the non negotiables in a bank there's no choice, you have to get those right.

Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. Um, Jody, keen to also get your thoughts. If we sort of um, look into our crystal ball, look ahead sort of five years or so, what do you think that successful bank looks like in terms of the uh, underlying technology?

Speaker E: Yeah, well they say it's uh, don't make predictions particularly about the future. That's uh, you know this is, I mean there's so much we could spend an entire episode just on the implications of how AI will dramatically change not just this industry but how we operate across life. But um, specifically I think we can anticipate there'll be fairly dramatic changes and leaps forward in terms of customer experience, delivery and operating efficiency. Many um, banks we feel will embrace the benefits of a modern technology platform, giving much better access to customer operational transaction data. Ideally, um, we'll have much more of a real time event based platform as well. Uh, we think the customer interaction model will be different as well. So many Chief Digital officers and CIOs are really challenging the notion of does the traditional UX interface, is that really what will survive or will be some kind of much more hybrid, uh, generative AI construct that's much more tailored for the customer? Will that be the one that prevails? Um, I believe that embedded banking will become ubiquitous. That will Also present a significant challenge for banks because with embedded banking, that means banking is really moving to the point of the transaction. And banks will need to be quite savvy in terms of how they play in an environment where embedded banking really becomes ubiquitous in almost everything that we do. So all of these point to having the right kind of foundational platform in place to be able to adapt and really adapt with the right kind of speed as well.

Speaker D: My summary is the SixFour Bank's an organization that's prepared for change in most still, change is seen as a risk to be managed, controlled and minimized. Naturally, the world is already proving that being unable to change is the biggest risk for most banks. So that preparedness, that readiness, that capability to process change ever more quickly will differentiate those that are successful and those that are left behind.

Speaker C: Um, I mean, it's a perfect summary. Um, I guess. Um, I think it's really clear to me off the back of the conversation that we've had that, um, whatever the future looks like, I think Engine is going to continue to sort of be operating right at the forefront, um, sort of pushing hard towards shaping that future, I guess. Um, a final question maybe for you, Sam. Um, off the back of that is, uh, you know, what should people, what should people do if they want to join Engine, if they want to get in touch?

Speaker D: Yeah, absolutely. We're growing, rapidly growing internationally teams, uh, in Toronto and New York and London, Dublin, London, Dubai and Sydney I should say. Um, so yeah, look online enginebystarling.com on our jobs page. There's plenty of opportunities to get involved in this. Both technology and the client facing teams as well.

Speaker C: Excellent. All right, well look, that just about wraps up today's show. Uh, thank you so much to today's guests. Maybe we can do a quick whip around the uh, virtual table. You guys can tell us a little bit more around where uh, people can find out more about you. Sam, uh, let's start with you.

Speaker D: If you double check, um, yeah, I'm easily found on LinkedIn sub Everythington. It's an unusually unique surname. So to reach out to me on there.

Speaker C: Perfect, thanks. Um, uh, Jody, how about you?

Speaker E: Yeah, LinkedIn plus, uh, I'm usually at many of the events that the banking technology and fintech events, uh, around the US and in North America.

Speaker C: Excellent. Well look, as ever, as for me, you can find me, uh, on LinkedIn. Uh, thank you very much for listening. If you like what you've heard, follow our podcast and don't forget to leave us a review because it really does help to make the show better and it really helps others to find it. As always, if you want to join the conversation, find us on social Media. Just search for 11FS or FinTech Insider or email podcasts@11fs.com. Thank you very much and goodbye.